Another Huge GOD Bash

**Tsen** · 10-14-2005 10:50 PM

Okay, had to finish reading up and stuff before I made a somewhat more serious (and on-topic) post.

My first problem with your logic is that people brought up in one religion must at some point find their faith for themselves. It's been proved many times over that people brought up in a set of beliefs tend to stay with those beliefs. There's plenty of exceptions to the rule, but many people brought up in a religion stay with that religion without ever questioning why.
Let's compare it to political party. Most of the time, a person brought up as a Republican will stay Republican, and a person brought up as a Democrat will stay Democrat. To further this, many who are brought up in whichever party never realize WHY they belong to that party. I daresay a significant amount wouldn't belong to the party the are in now if they weren't raised in that party.
Religion is very similar. A significant of people are brought up in a religion and never notice why. Never challenge their beliefs at all. If they'd been brought up in another religion, they'd likely stay with it.
In part, this is due to the nature of 'faith'. Faith is belief in something without having evidence to support it. Because of this, there need not be a reason to whatever you're believing, you just need to keep believing it. And so, somebody can be in the ENTIRELY wrong church, and still believe wholeheartedly that they have FAITH and that God has told them it's true, when they really just had a slight case of heartburn that day.
Simply put, there's no carved-in-stone definition of faith. Say that Church A is the correct church, and Church B isn't. If somebody's raised in Church B, they may feel that they have faith in a true gospel, and so they'll stay in Church B. Somebody in Church A will do the same. But if somebody from Church B visits Church A, they might realize that the faith is different in Church A and that they really didn't know anything when they were in Church B, and join Church A.
But in real life, few people actually go visiting different churches. I actually doubt that it's possible to visit all the churches in the world. So, somebody may feel false faith, and never know the difference because they never experienced TRUE faith.

**kimpossible** · 10-14-2005 11:23 PM

Tsen, would you agree that most people take the "path of least resistance" and that that kinda summarizes your point?

If we agree there, then I'm onboard with you.

**dreamtamer007** · 10-15-2005 01:58 AM

I guess this post has turn into I believe in god and I don’t. Well on an awkward day I decided to poke fun at evolution. So I’m not perfect. I used to think I was just like Kimpossible and have paid a big price in my own mind for that aragance. Awaken4e1 and I have experienced the touch of god. We are not trying to say we have a better way of thinking about anything. Awaken4e1 has experienced something that is as real as Lucid Dreaming and so have I. We wanted to try and share this with others but like he said the intellects are going to try and devour us in the process. The bible also says the devil knows the scriptures but trembles at the name of the only living son. “Oh so he is the only one living and we are all dead,” you might say. “Yes” only Awaken4e1 and myself have learned to accept that and as we die to ourselves we come to real life. And we are here to share that life. Well no one answered my simple question about what is cold. Some intellects. Maybe it was too simple. Ok, All you scientific science nerds and computer nerds, answer this one. What is considered the hart of a computer? Without it no computer would work. I know the answer and am not going to reveal it until someone comes up with the correct answer or enough people want to learn. It is a piece of hardware and it’s been around since the sixties maybe earlier. I actually used one in the early sixties (60s) clue

**kimpossible** · 10-15-2005 02:09 AM

The heart of the computer (not to be confused with the "hart" of the computer as you have, since I rarely find deer living in my machines) is the flip-flop. Computers compute in a binary state. In the 50s, the flip-flop was a relay. In the 60's-70's it was descreet logic. In the late 70's, 80's it became the transistor.

The FPGA rebirths the concept. Individual gates - or flipflops, field combined.

All systems within the computer,without exception, function on the concept of on-and-off, present and absent.

**Oneironaut Zero** · 10-15-2005 02:28 AM

Thanks for the compliments. 8)

(Edit: Holy Shit I didn't mean for this to be so long! lol And those who believe they are the enlightened shouldn't feel so disgusted by agnostists and skeptics. We are the way we are because we are Desiring to know, and failing to find the answers! Heh.)

Well I see the sort of disappointment with where the thread was heading, but I'm still interested, lol, but if the others want to redirect its fine with me. No harm no foul.

‘First ‘Faith is not naiveté it is the act of knowing the natural law, and seeing beyond it.

I don't think I can agree with that. Remember, \"Faith\" goes deeper than religion. To have Faith in something means you invision a certain outcome and steadfastly choose to ignore all outside input that challenges the belief of that outcome, no matter how illogical it may seem, shutting out all consciousness of possibility off fallicy.(sp) You are closing yourself to every experience which branches outside of your faith and dubbing it \"not worth consideration\" because it is not what you already believe.
This ignorance to opposition (that is Not meant to be an insult, so don't take it as one) very very closely relates to naivete. To have faith in something is to have a psychological ignorance of all opposing data, taking your gut instinct, not thinking of how opposed to logical perception it is, and running with it. While not naivete in its most basic definition, it is Very Very close.

To those who know the purpose of good and evil also know that it is all part of the plan which God has for Man. It is not a shirking of a responsibility; it is the emersion of Man into a mixture, to bring him out of the negative experience with more than he had when he went into it.

I understand your view on this. The concept of evil could be acredited toward being \"a test for man to overcome to earn his position under the light of God.\" But you have to remember how Different a child's upbringing can be. This would mean that anyone who grows up without a proper concept of what the Gospel says is good and evil, doesn't quite have the ammunition in which to Overcome evil to succeed in \"Goodness.\" Is this person damned from birth, forsaken from heaven by the nature of their upbringing?

[quote]Yes, it is true, but for the most part it has changed for the betterment of the masses.
But on the same token, in some circles it has changed to serve the lusts of Man[/quote.

If the Bible was transcribed by those under the influence of the Spirit, who, but the spirit, has authority to change it? Who is allowed to bend the laws and by which account are they fully inclined to set forth what is \"better for the masses?\" Did God himself change his mind and relay this to those who doctored the \"Word?\" You say that \"Man will always fail you,\" but I think it is naivete to assume that whatever Man changed the \"Word\" was communing definitely with God. If not, please rationalize how this was Indisputably \"Devine Intervention.\"

I don’t believe that any book referred to as the Bible can ever be referred to ‘as pagan’.

I did not mean \"The Pagan 'BIBLE'\" in the literal sense, as they might not have Technically ever called it their \"Bible,\" which is a bit of a literary low-blow if that is what you meant. Aside from that, to further illustrate your point, please explain the similarities between so many (including Catholic and Pagan) dieties.
http://www.wilsonsalmanac.com/jesus_similar.html

It means that no matter what the outer circumstance tell you, only what your heart aliened with the Word of God tells you what true Faith is.

My heart falls more with the concept of God, than the Word of God, because the Word of God is at-large interpretted by Man (whom you conclude will always fail me.) However I know What true Faith is, I simply, as yet, don't subscribe to your view of it.

Truth is relative to the experience of the individual; just as a diamond has many fascists so also does Faith, and Truth. We place faith where ever we need it, and one person’s faith can differ from another’s and still be the truth, and true faith.

Not so. Reality is relative to the experience of the individual. Truth is universal. A truth that warps itself to accomodate the mind of an individual is more accurately defined as \"Perception\" or \"Opinion.\" Whatever someone holds true: \"It is hot today,\" \"Catholicism is the correct religion,\" \"God exists,\" are only True if Verifiable by all accounts. Anything else is a Theory, a Perspective, an Opinion.
\"It is 95 degrees today.\" \"There are many different religions worldwide.\" \"God is, as yet, an undetermined absolution.\" THESE are truths.

No, it is not mere understanding, which saved you, it is faith. It is you’re belief.

So if someone interprets the word of God: \"Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, he'll eat forever.\" (Not word-for-word) to mean that \"If I molest one child, I'll be satisfied for a night, but if I devise a plan to keep the human traffic moving, I can satisfy myself for a lifetime.\" Is not his interpretation crucial? Is his \"unwavering Faith\" promising him paradise at the end of his journey?

It is not their understanding of text which saves them, it is their faith which plainly put is (believing in something they can’t see or explain.) God doesn’t judge us, only we judge ourselves. I know this because there is a new ability in me which God give to all his people. An ability to lay down intellect, and walk by what our heart already knows.

If I'm correct, many many MANY crimes are committed with the frame of mind that they are Justifiable. Countless terrorists and normal (abnormal) people do what they do with a sense of righteousness, and unwavering self-judgement that what they are doing is the right thing to do. In other words: Faith.

>>Also, why is it that one is considered 'dead' for not believing in God, in God's eyes?

Because according to the Word a man who is not regenerated, or in other terms born again, (sorry about the terminology) does not have the ability to commune with God’s Spirit, So he is dead in the spirit, also God can not look on any one who is not regenerated because of sin.

So if someone went through life (again without proper influence through religious sociality) without a concept of \"Sin,\" yet they, through various interractions with truely benevolent people, lead a life of giving and projected well-being to others, this person is denied salvation by God? What if they grew up (again) in the environment of another religion and their concept of \"sin\" is different than yours? Is God's light so esoteric that you Have to have full knowledge of Sin, committing it, and being born again through it, that your level of lifelong benevolence doesn't matter if you haven't followed the right procedures?

In every person’s life there are circumstances which we are all faced with, one of which is the place in our life where we search our heart to find our origin. It is not based on any religious underpinnings but is a build-in course of human life. So, even if some one is not raised in a ‘religious home’ there will come a time in that person’s life where they must find faith on their own.

Ahh, but that is a Dangerous answer!
An answer like that is to say (going back to what I said before about the concept of \"faith\") that following this path of exploration of self can lead to many Many interpretations of \"faith.\" One's search for self can evolve into a faith of origin that completely opposes a believer's view of God. Perhaps the person grows up an evolutionist, taking whatever information they are given through life to conclude that all scientific theory is correct, and with this, compiling a perspective of morality and their own views of right and wrong. In this, they are not only keeping themself from many of the 'sins' described in scripture, but they are putting their faith in what they believe to be their origin. Is \"God\" (which can be called \"Chance\" and/or \"the mixture of the right variables\" by evolutionists) by any other name...is still God?
This person would be displaying a True Faith, while exercising to the best of their ability the concept of \"right and wrong.\" Could they be damnable because their faith in \"Where I came from and how I should live\" does not contain the \"God\" in your context?

It is only a human conception that God will hold paradise from those who did not believe in Him. To the contrary our reward of Paradise is solely guarantee on our asking for that gift. Hi is only the result of God holding anything back from us. ‘Look at is this way, If you where to sole heir to a vast fortune, it is there for you to take at anytime, but if you don’t know to ‘take’ it then you wont receive it. The same is true for Paradise. You don’t have because you don’t ask.

If I see what you're saying, I find it hard to digest. Again, I want to mention my true interest in this, which is why I'm playing the antagonist.
I'm going to ask you to put yourself in my shoes and look at this from an agnostic point of view.
If there is a God, being the moral (in my opinion) respect-oriented person that I am, I Do ask for a place in Heaven, if it so exists. I understand how in this respect those who flat out Don't Believe would fall short. (Not saying that This respect negates all of the other inconsistencies.) But then, not having Full Faith in God's existence, (which I'm not sure that I do) who sets the standard for What I have to do to get my way into heaven? You said that Full Faith is key, at first, but that is under-fire by the fact that many murderers blame their crimes on Full Faith. So in that respect, I pass, because Morally (assuming a fair minimum-requirement) I'm ok. But then, you have to take into consideration that I Don't Fully Believe.
So, living what I think is a morally sound, and in some cases modest, and overly-benevolent lifestlye, with a heartfelt, genuine respect and love for God (while still logically questioning his existence), are you saying that I'm not fit for heaven because my faith isn't Absolute?
I don’t think that confusion in the face of overwhelming information for and against God’s existence is a fair grounds for expulsion from Heaven. Is it?

And the most important questions, after examining your answer to the last one:
If I’m NOT fit for heaven…what kind of people are roaming around there? Those who Have Faith but misinterpret the meanings of the Word?
And: If I AM fit for Heaven, being the agnostist that I am (damn…is that really a word or not? Lol) then what is the point of adhering to the life of servitude that a Hard-Core religious person has to withstand, when Morality and a Request for Invitation are key enough?

Whoa…I think I might have actually gotten pretty deep with that one. J

‘Thou shalt not murder’
God does not command any one to do that which is contrary to His Word.

Is this to mean those men that headed the crusades were corrupt? And if this is so, who is to say that the views that stemmed from the church of that era aren’t corrupt as well?

Again, it is not a matter of being restricted from Heaven; it is that you can not live in Heaven without being a Spiritual Creature in born of God in fellowship with God, which again brings me back to the fact that if your not regenerated you are not able to live in Heaven. It is a matter of spiritual law, not of be better than some one else. It’s a gift! Take it.

Finally, (Damn I haven't ranted like this in a while. lol) as a question of morality and my “positive outlook and actions” through life, I AM born of God and in fellowship with God. I live my life by many of the values the religious live by, because I agree that fundamentally many things just Should Not be done. But as far as “Knowing God Exists beyond a doubt,” if God really Does exists, I’d hate to think that he would keep someone out of Heaven because of their confusion about something they have no unambiguous evidence of.

**dreamtamer007** · 10-15-2005 03:39 AM

Originally posted by kimpossible
The heart of the computer (not to be confused with the \"hart\" of the computer as you have, since I rarely find deer living in my machines) is the flip-flop. Computers compute in a binary state. In the 50s, the flip-flop was a relay. In the 60's-70's it was descreet logic. In the late 70's, 80's it became the transistor.

The FPGA rebirths the concept. Individual gates - or flipflops, field combined.

All systems within the computer,without exception, function on the concept of on-and-off, present and absent.

I spelled heart wrong. You understand the basic logic of how a computer works and I give you credit for that. We are talking about something that usually only an engineer who designs would know Yes the transistors are important for producing the binary functions or language but would not function without another device. As a matter of fact without this devise none of the transistors would flip-flop properly or would work together. Another clue. You can have binary code on a disk but the relays or transistors would not have a clue as what to do without the help of this devise. Now I’m trying to be nice.

**Tsen** · 10-15-2005 05:41 AM

Give up the compter analogy. It isn't working too well for you.

Kim, that's exactly what I'm saying. To many people take the easy way through life and never step back and say, "Wait, this doesn't make sense!", and because of that, they never progress. People are so close-minded about things that they don't stop to assume that somebody else could be right.

Now, I've listened to your remarks. I actually was in just about the same place once. I stepped back, said, "Huh...that's odd. I'm a Christian, but I don't agree with Christian viewpoints on religion." and I gave it up.
Here's my point: God may or may not exist. I haven't decided. Probably won't for a while. BUT, if he DOES exist, and if he is a completely just and loving God, he must inherently be a FAIR God. And a fair God won't condemn a man to Hell for eternity just because he was born in the wrong circumstances. He also won't condemn a man for a sin that Adam commited thousands of years ago. And finally, he won't condemn a man for not believing in Christ, even if that man was a perfect being.
If you say otherwise, please explain how this can happen and he can still be a fair and loving God.

**kimpossible** · 10-15-2005 05:48 AM

It's seems to me that if the UN weren't a bunch of crooked thieving wankers, they'd ban god from the planet and bring him up on charges of crimes against humanity.

Eternal torture? Seems like we should be sending the bombers gods way. Load 'em up, smoke 'em if you got 'em.

**spoon** · 10-15-2005 07:52 AM

why are we talking about computers? The ALU (Arithmetic and Logic Unit) would be the heart of a computer.

I'll read the rest when i get back from work (4 pages in 2 days? damn you people!)

-spoon

**Awaken4e1** · 10-15-2005 09:25 AM

Originally posted by Tsen

Now, I've listened to your remarks. I actually was in just about the same place once. I stepped back, said, \"Huh...that's odd. I'm a Christian, but I don't agree with Christian viewpoints on religion.\" and I gave it up.

I have many beliefs that are not of the mainstream of Christianity, but I am still Christian
So, did Jesus!

cute little thought... Going to church doesn't make you Christian,(as I have hear from so many who claim to be Christian) Just as sleeping in a garage doesn't make you a car...

**dreamtamer007** · 10-16-2005 02:02 AM

Originally posted by Tsen+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tsen)</div>

Give up the compter analogy. It isn't working too well for you.
[/b]

It’s called a computer. Ok but it’s a simple piece of hardware and only someone that’s has been to computer science class would know. So forget it. No problem.Lol

<!--QuoteBegin-Tsen

Kim, that's exactly what I'm saying. To many people take the easy way through life and never step back and say, \"Wait, this doesn't make sense!\", and because of that, they never progress. People are so close-minded about things that they don't stop to assume that somebody else could be right.

What are you talking about? Kim started challenging knowledge on thermodynamics. And such

Originally posted by Tsen+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tsen)</div>

And a fair God won't condemn a man to Hell for eternity just because he was born in the wrong circumstances. He also won't condemn a man for a sin that Adam commited thousands of years ago.
[/b]

You non-believers always think you know what a fair god would be thinking.

<!--QuoteBegin-Tsen

And finally, he won't condemn a man for not believing in Christ, even if that man was a perfect being.
If you say otherwise, please explain how this can happen and he can still be a fair and loving God.

You seem to know god better then me. You even know the reason god is sending one somewhere.
The answers are in the bible.
Please ask one question at a time And make it spicific. I’m getting tired and I’m not the bible. I have a bible.

**Ynot** · 10-16-2005 02:18 AM

serious question (honest guv).

At any one time how can you be certain it's God your serving
is it possible to be following the devil and not even know it?

**dreamtamer007** · 10-16-2005 02:30 AM

All things are possible and some impossible. Have you heard “being asleep and awake at the same time? Without contradiction a peace that passes understanding is like a meditative state that confirms god’s presence and casts out all fear.

**Ynot** · 10-16-2005 02:32 AM

is that a "no" ?
you can't be sure who you serve?

**dreamtamer007** · 10-16-2005 02:44 AM

Originally posted by Ynot
is that a \"no\" ?
you can't be sure who you serve?

You’re talking about being shure of anything. Mentally no, only relatively speaking. It is impossible for two objects to occupy the same space at the same time. But even that’s relative because we are talking about the known universe. Spirit is not just mind.

**Ynot** · 10-16-2005 02:46 AM

My point was that no-one can be certain if it's god or the devil they serve
this uncertainty makes people want to question (and get sensible answers)
failure to get answers only leads to more uncertainty

I've said this before
circular arguements

What I am dead certain of, though
is man's stubbonness to change his views
Once someone has made a decisive view-point
nothing is going to make him change that

proof of that is in the history books, my friend

I, myself, am completely uncertain
probably always will be

**Ynot** · 10-16-2005 02:58 AM

I've often wondered what would happen if the second coming of christ actually happened

He'd probably be gunned down and branded a heretic
got to admit, there's a lot of fanatisism spanning all religions and beliefs
quick to judge, quick to act
quick to persecute

fuck me freddy, that thought scares the shit out of me
last time God intervened, he spared 2 of every animal, and 2 humans

he might decide to leave us be the next time

**kimpossible** · 10-16-2005 03:00 AM

Originally posted by Ynot
Once someone has made a decisive view-point
nothing is going to make him change that

I think reasonable and logical people can. People who attend this very forum have seen me argue a viewpoint and then back down when presented with a valid counter-argument.

On the flip-side, a friend was giving me a job reference years ago. They asked her what my biggest failing was. She said "She does not tolerate fools well."

Truer words never spoken.

Evidence abounds in this thread that the notion to put Internet connectivity into mental wards and on short schoolbusses was a bad idea. dreamtamer's last post, for example.

**Ynot** · 10-16-2005 03:05 AM

Originally posted by kimpossible
I think reasonable and logical people can

not when a person's fundamental beleifs (or lack of) are questioned

my experience is
people who belief will belief no matter what
people who don't, won't, no matter what

but hey.....

**kimpossible** · 10-16-2005 03:10 AM

There's a third case. Those who don't believe or disbelieve, but rather require proof. In the absense of that proof through billions of claims over thousands of years, one may make a statistically accurate presumption that proof will never arrive - therefore the claim is (and will remain) false.

If the person is mature in their self-awareness, they will always be prepared to say "oops, my bad!" if the proof should magically appear. No matter how miniscule the likelyhood.

**Awaken4e1** · 10-16-2005 03:17 AM

There is still an ability which is given to those who ask, i.e. ‘The baptism of the Holy Spirit’ is the greatest Truth detector within Man’s heart. Its better than all the brains in the World combined!

**Ynot** · 10-16-2005 03:17 AM

Originally posted by kimpossible
There's a third case. Those who don't believe or disbelieve, but rather require proof. In the absense of that proof through billions of claims over thousands of years, one may make a statistically accurate presumption that proof will never arrive - therefore the claim is (and will remain) false.

If the person is mature in their self-awareness, they will always be prepared to say \"oops, my bad!\" if the proof should magically appear. No matter how miniscule the likelyhood.

fair point

This was one of the points I was trying to get across in my earlier "refreshing beverages" post I made

Why can't people accept the opinions of others and agree not to fight over it
we have a common goal, no matter who's rules your following
that goal is the peace, unity and love of all mankind

does it really matter if I don't beleive
doesn't my good natured way of living, and my respect for others grant me the love of God?

**dreamtamer007** · 10-16-2005 03:29 AM

Originally posted by kimpossible

I think reasonable and logical people can. People who attend this very forum have seen me argue a viewpoint and then back down when presented with a valid counter-argument.

On the flip-side, a friend was giving me a job reference years ago. They asked her what my biggest failing was. She said \"She does not tolerate fools well.\"

Truer words never spoken.

Evidence abounds in this thread that the notion to put Internet connectivity into mental wards and on short schoolbusses was a bad idea. dreamtamer's last post, for example.

My point was, what do you say? You repeat what another person says. What about your own opinion. The Echo I hear is "I am god" that’s as old as the hills. Did you think you where the first to say that. Lol

**Awaken4e1** · 10-16-2005 03:30 AM

Originally posted by Ynot
serious question (honest guv).

At any one time how can you be certain it's God your serving
is it possible to be following the devil and not even know it?

Yes, without a doubt, There is a knowing which is given to those who walk in the spirit. It is a witness to our spirit that we are inline with the will of the Spirit. This witness is accompanied by Peace. Those who follow after the one they call the devil, have a proof as well, to the fact that they follow the devil, it is called Confusion.

**kimpossible** · 10-16-2005 03:32 AM

>> that goal is the peace, unity and love of all mankind

Frankly, none of those are in my top, oh, 10 billion goals.

Dreamtamer - that's hilarious coming from you biblethumpers and your cut-and-paste dittoing of the bible. My writings are original, thanks. Yours are stale 1000yr old spoon-fed pablum.

Thread: Another Huge GOD Bash

LinkBack

Thread Tools

Display

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions