Thread: Rehab: Getting R/S back on religion.

ok Zeneyes I like you. You make me think about my faith and I believe you actually want to have an intelligent discussion on the subject to further your knowledge and understanding. Now i have been a Christian my whole life, but not extrememly conservative and I can see how others say that they can't believe there is no God without evidence because you cannot prove there is any kind of God nor can you disprove that there is, but I think it just seems silly when people say there is absolutely no God or refuse to believe that any other idea or concept other than their's is incorrect.
I can't stand it when other Christians call every person that belongs to another religion evil and I also find it very annoying when atheist blatantly disrespect religions that some people believe very fervently in. If I can respect your beliefs I'm sure it isn't that difficult to respect mine. Because I mean really, I am not harming myself or anyone else. As soon as that starts happening you can blast me on anything you see fit as much as possible.

Originally Posted by blackjack

ok Zeneyes I like you. You make me think about my faith and I believe you actually want to have an intelligent discussion on the subject to further your knowledge and understanding. Now i have been a Christian my whole life, but not extrememly conservative and I can see how others say that they can't believe there is no God without evidence because you cannot prove there is any kind of God nor can you disprove that there is, but I think it just seems silly when people say there is absolutely no God or refuse to believe that any other idea or concept other than their's is incorrect.
I can't stand it when other Christians call every person that belongs to another religion evil and I also find it very annoying when atheist blatantly disrespect religions that some people believe very fervently in. If I can respect your beliefs I'm sure it isn't that difficult to respect mine. Because I mean really, I am not harming myself or anyone else. As soon as that starts happening you can blast me on anything you see fit as much as possible.

Okay, here's a rundown of the atheists here, and yes I'll speak for all of us. None of us here say there is no god period and that you're wrong. We believe based on the evidence; you provide good evidence for a god, we'll believe in it/him/her. We like good old fashion debate, but if your beliefs are incredibly stupid we aren't afraid to tell you. If you (figurative you, not you blackjack) really think a magic cracker turns into Jesus when a priest mumbles over it, for example, then we'll tell you your beliefs are stupid. If you don't like it, then don't post here.

Originally Posted by zeneyes

I have said "I do not believe in God" before on this forum, and if I was forced to choose I would say there is no God, but I'm honest enough to say it's impossible to know at the same time

THIS IS ATHEISM. I also will tell you there is NO way to know, ever. Until death, and even then maybe not. But I don't believe there is one, therefore I am an atheist, and so are you.

Originally Posted by blackjack

ok Zeneyes I like you. You make me think about my faith and I believe you actually want to have an intelligent discussion on the subject to further your knowledge and understanding. Now i have been a Christian my whole life, but not extrememly conservative and I can see how others say that they can't believe there is no God without evidence because you cannot prove there is any kind of God nor can you disprove that there is, but I think it just seems silly when people say there is absolutely no God or refuse to believe that any other idea or concept other than their's is incorrect.
I can't stand it when other Christians call every person that belongs to another religion evil and I also find it very annoying when atheist blatantly disrespect religions that some people believe very fervently in. If I can respect your beliefs I'm sure it isn't that difficult to respect mine. Because I mean really, I am not harming myself or anyone else. As soon as that starts happening you can blast me on anything you see fit as much as possible.

Right on. You've been a Christian your whole life. Well, where do we go from here. You must want to discuss your faith with us...whoever may be lurking here.

Have you ever questioned your faith? I'm sure you have, and what did you conclude?

I suppose if I was able to empiracly know the Christian God I would have no problems, but I have been unable to do that...and that is the point of your religion. You have to have faith that what the bible proclaims is 100% truth. Maybe you don't think that...maybe you are an apologist? That isn't necessarily a bad thing. Every time a language is translated into a different language there is meaning lost. All cultures think slightly different from one another. This brings a problem to translating the bible. The word of God is lost in translation. So how do you reconcile this?

Jesus is very similar to Buddha, at least the spiritual message is. Maybe Jesus never claimed to be the Son of God? Maybe he was simply a wise man who spoke of wisdom and was made into a Martyr, or a legend, because men who were enthralled with his message could not settle for his human status. If this is allowed than you must concede that this message is not Christian alone, but human. Namely human wisdom. This is how you live a successfully rewarding spiritual life. This is how we experience reality, and in this human frame you can be rewarded with joy if only you understand our condition.

I have never been okay with "accepted ignorance" which is what I consider "blind faith." This is what appeals to me in regards to the Buddhist message. There is nothing one must believe in other than human potential. The mind resides in Samsara, which is a sanskrit word that translates into English as "perpetual wandering." This belief is based on reincarnation being our judgement. Reincarnation fulfills the judgement of God, and acts as a universal morality. "Hell", in the Buddhist conext is nothing more than being imprisoned by your "monkey mind," as in the mind that never stops rambling on with it's problems. The justice is delivered by placing you into a new life, after you die, that is based on the life you have just lived. Reincarnation is close to the belief in Jesus if the two "religions" are compared. Without reincarnation there can be no justice in a Buddhist context.

I could go on...but I won't. I have said enough. I will end with this....namely, I know Christianity because I was raised as a Christian. I left that religion because I had too many questions that could not be satisfactorly answered. Those questions all revolve around the belife that a God can be omnicient and omnipoent and at the same time expect us to accept dualism. Evil is a product of God, if he in fact exist. This cannot be reconciled for me.

The number one tennet of the Buddhist philosophy is:

Life is suffering.

This does not have to be negative, it just is. Joy can be found, but only when you can quiet that monkey mind tha we have all inherited.

I am starting to question my faith, but i was just stating that I am a Christian to show my point of view. I am 15 so I am at the point in my life where I have a lot of questions and almost no answers. So i am just doing my best to help others out and find what my niche is in life . I'll figure all that stuff out when I am older and more experienced with my life, and when others are less judgmental when I try to explain something. (not you guys, some of my friends go to a hardcore conservative school and i get in a lot of arguments with them)

It really depends on our intentions.

Working together, we can have mature discussions.

There is no "R/S back on track" on/off switch around here.

Originally Posted by Needcatscan

Okay, here's a rundown of the atheists here, and yes I'll speak for all of us. None of us here say there is no god period and that you're wrong. We believe based on the evidence; you provide good evidence for a god, we'll believe in it/him/her. We like good old fashion debate, but if your beliefs are incredibly stupid we aren't afraid to tell you. If you (figurative you, not you blackjack) really think a magic cracker turns into Jesus when a priest mumbles over it, for example, then we'll tell you your beliefs are stupid. If you don't like it, then don't post here.



THIS IS ATHEISM. I also will tell you there is NO way to know, ever. Until death, and even then maybe not. But I don't believe there is one, therefore I am an atheist, and so are you.

Okay then, what is atheism?

Dictionary.com
a·the·ism –noun
1. the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
2. disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.

What is agnosticism?
ag·nos·ti·cism
n.
1. The doctrine that certainty about first principles or absolute truth is unattainable and that only perceptual phenomena are objects of exact knowledge.
2. The belief that there can be no proof either that God exists or that God does not exist.


I am not atheist...I am agnostic...and if you are honest than so are you. Again, if backed into an intellectual corner in which an agnostic belief is not possible than I will chose atheism. Being that I understand the nature of our condition as humans, namely that I cannot know what happens after death, I admit to myself that I am agnostic.

Unfortunately knowing this, in order for some type of hope of an eternity in which I can some how play a part to emerge, I choose to believe in reincarnation. It's not damning simply due to belief, it's just. You don't burn in hell over a belief, you simply hit the reset button, and if you were honest you get to play again. If you are not honest with yourself (and others) than maybe you come back as an alley cat, or a human born into terrible conditions. Either way you learn what you did wrong. Only the seekers proceed to the next level, and this is just the way of universal justice. In reality nobody is born with a silver spoon stuck up their ass. Even richie rich has problems, probably bigger than the starving third world child.

And no Needcatscan, I don't believe a cracker has anything to do with God. A cracker is just an overprocessed, over refined, bleached, chemical laden, sodium having gut glue...nothing more. Wine is not blood, it's grapes that have been fermented with yeast, and water can only partake in this process via the capillary action of the grape plant

Originally Posted by zeneyes

Dictionary.com
a·the·ism –noun
1. the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
2. disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.

Why don't you think for yourself, you moron. You think a dictionary is going to tell you anything about the world? Try to find in there how to write a check or how to ride a bike.

Atheism is not a doctrine or belief any more than knowing Harry Potter doesn't exist is a doctrine. For instance: there is no Dumbledore who can fire spells and fly on broomsticks. This is something you know, not something you believe.

Originally Posted by zeneyes

Okay then, what is atheism?

Dictionary.com
a·the·ism –noun
1. the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
2. disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.

What is agnosticism?
ag·nos·ti·cism
n.
1. The doctrine that certainty about first principles or absolute truth is unattainable and that only perceptual phenomena are objects of exact knowledge.
2. The belief that there can be no proof either that God exists or that God does not exist.


I am not atheist...I am agnostic...and if you are honest than so are you. Again, if backed into an intellectual corner in which an agnostic belief is not possible than I will chose atheism. Being that I understand the nature of our condition as humans, namely that I cannot know what happens after death, I admit to myself that I am agnostic.

http://dreamviews.com/community/show...633#post926633

I can no longer count how many "define atheism" debates there have been on two hands...

Seriously guys is it really that important.

And hungrymanz the dictionary is a great resource for defining things. It saves us the trouble of bickering like dogs over ever word. Be mindful of how easily you throw out the word "moron" since all it accomplishes is proving that you anger easily.

Cheers~

Originally Posted by hungrymanz

Why don't you think for yourself, you moron. You think a dictionary is going to tell you anything about the world? Try to find in there how to write a check or how to ride a bike.

Atheism is not a doctrine or belief any more than knowing Harry Potter doesn't exist is a doctrine. For instance: there is no Dumbledore who can fire spells and fly on broomsticks. This is something you know, not something you believe.

Alright, this should be simple, as you pretty much just told everybody that you have no desire to be taken seriously.

dic·tion·ar·y:
–noun, plural 1. a book containing a selection of the words of a language, usually arranged alphabetically, giving information about their meanings, pronunciations, etymologies, inflected forms, etc., expressed in either the same or another language

Put shortly if you want to use a language, in this case English, than you have to use words that have definitions. The place to go to find out what each words definition is...that's right, the dictionary. If you don't like the dictionary than maybe you should learn to speak in tongues.

Either way you have no right to even speak since you don't believe words should be defined.

Lastly, where did I say anything about learning about the world through a dictionary? I learned a good bit about the world while on westpac doing boxes in the middle of the Arabian Sea for 115 days while bombing Afghanistan. One day you will move out of your parrents house, and when you do you will find the world is much bigger than your bedroom will allow for. Have fun reading Harry Potter.

Originally Posted by zeneyes

Okay then, what is atheism?

Dictionary.com
a·the·ism –noun
1. the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
2. disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.

What is agnosticism?
ag·nos·ti·cism
n.
1. The doctrine that certainty about first principles or absolute truth is unattainable and that only perceptual phenomena are objects of exact knowledge.
2. The belief that there can be no proof either that God exists or that God does not exist.


I am not atheist...I am agnostic...and if you are honest than so are you. Again, if backed into an intellectual corner in which an agnostic belief is not possible than I will chose atheism. Being that I understand the nature of our condition as humans, namely that I cannot know what happens after death, I admit to myself that I am agnostic.

Unfortunately knowing this, in order for some type of hope of an eternity in which I can some how play a part to emerge, I choose to believe in reincarnation. It's not damning simply due to belief, it's just. You don't burn in hell over a belief, you simply hit the reset button, and if you were honest you get to play again. If you are not honest with yourself (and others) than maybe you come back as an alley cat, or a human born into terrible conditions. Either way you learn what you did wrong. Only the seekers proceed to the next level, and this is just the way of universal justice. In reality nobody is born with a silver spoon stuck up their ass. Even richie rich has problems, probably bigger than the starving third world child.

And no Needcatscan, I don't believe a cracker has anything to do with God. A cracker is just an overprocessed, over refined, bleached, chemical laden, sodium having gut glue...nothing more. Wine is not blood, it's grapes that have been fermented with yeast, and water can only partake in this process via the capillary action of the grape plant

Well by the dictionary definitions I am atheist and agnostic. And the "you" there was a figurative; I obviously didn't think you believed in transubstantiation because you aren't catholic.

Zeneyes, you claim there's no God and then you say you're agnostic. An agnostic won't come out and say "there's no God." I believe you're falling under the category of atheist agnostic, or agnostic atheist. An atheist lacks belief in a God, it doesn't mean they have to say there's no God and reject the possibility. The majority probably believe there's a slim possibility for a God existing, but won't believe until given evidence. On the other hand, an anti-theist will say there's no God and reject the possibility, and may or may not believe if given evidence, in my opinion.

Most atheists on here will probably say there's a slim chance of a God existing, if not then I'd consider them anti-theists.

To further clarify what I've said, since you probably still think atheists have to reject God and any possibility: I don't believe there's super advanced aliens out there in the universe that fly in aircrafts at superluminal speeds, or travel through wormholes to get to earth, but is there a slim possibility that there is? Sure.

It lacks belief, and says there isn't any, but leaves open a slim chance.

To furthur clarify what I've said about anti-theists: I don't believe there's super advanced aliens out there in the universe that fly in aircrafts at superluminal speeds, or travel through wormholes to get to earth, but is there a slim possibility that there is? Fuck no.

It rejects both a belief and a slim chance.






That's how I look at it, I could be wrong, but in my opnion, that's how the cookie crumbles.

Originally Posted by zeneyes

Alright, this should be simple, as you pretty much just told everybody that you have no desire to be taken seriously.

dic·tion·ar·y:
–noun, plural 1. a book containing a selection of the words of a language, usually arranged alphabetically, giving information about their meanings, pronunciations, etymologies, inflected forms, etc., expressed in either the same or another language

Put shortly if you want to use a language, in this case English, than you have to use words that have definitions. The place to go to find out what each words definition is...that's right, the dictionary. If you don't like the dictionary than maybe you should learn to speak in tongues.

No... you stupid, stupid moron. Arguments must appeal to logic, not to the authority of words or books. It does not matter if your dictionary says that atheism is a "belief" because there are other dictionaries that contradict that:

Originally Posted by http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/sn-definitions.html

atheism Disbelief in, or denial of, the existence of a god.

disbelieve 1. trans. Not to believe or credit; to refuse credence to: a. a statement or (alleged) fact: To reject the truth or reality of.

This source very clearly states that atheism is NOT BELIEVING in god rather than BELIEVING THERE IS NO god.

Now I told you why the dictionary definition is incorrect. It is because you can't "believe" in a negative - just like I know Harry Potter does not exist. That is not a belief.

Either way you have no right to even speak since you don't believe words should be defined.

You have no right to speak if you don't understand what we're talking about here.

One day you will move out of your parrents house, and when you do you will find the world is much bigger than your bedroom will allow for.

And maybe one day you'll learn to argue without this ad hominem crap. To me you sound like an internet troll - I just hope my bedroom is larger than your basement.

Have fun reading Harry Potter.

Again, a pathetic comment. I've never read Harry Potter, anyway.

Originally Posted by hungrymanz

Again, a pathetic comment. I've never read Harry Potter, anyway.

Dude, you're missing out, seriously. Great series, almost as good as Song of Fire and Ice and the Ender saga.

I might read em eventually. When they first came out I refused to give in to the hype, and I still haven't ended up reading HP.

Zeneyes attempted to make reading Harry Potter sound like a bad thing, which is why I said that it was a pathetic comment. Reading certainly isn't bad, and I rarely hear HP called a bad series of books. I can't imagine the plot being worse than that of the Bible

Hungry,

you stated "This source very clearly states that atheism is NOT BELIEVING in god rather than BELIEVING THERE IS NO god."

Maybe you can explain to me, since I am such a moron, what the difference between these two are.

I have never heard of an anti-theist before in my life, and I am 28.

How about a little history lesson concerning the placement of "a" in front of an english word

As defined by the dictionary I was required to have for Eng 101 in my first year of college, "The American Heritage College Dictionary"

A-or an- pref. Without; not: amoral [Gk.]

Theism: n. Belief in a god or gods, esp. belief in a personal God as creator and ruler of the wrold -theist n.

Therfore, we can place the two together and we have "without God" or "not God.

Placeing "anti" in front of "theist" is saying the same thing.

And would you please quit with the name calling. It does nothing but point to your own character which is shaping up to be an angry little boy who could use some xanex.

Originally Posted by zeneyes

Hungry,

you stated "This source very clearly states that atheism is NOT BELIEVING in god rather than BELIEVING THERE IS NO god."

Maybe you can explain to me, since I am such a moron, what the difference between these two are.

Not much to explain, just read what I've posted. I've already explained it two or three times.

I have never heard of an anti-theist before in my life, and I am 28.

Someone who is against religion. I've heard the term many times.
I find it funny that you need to assert your age. You're insecure, we get it. Let's move on.

How about a little history lesson concerning the placement of "a" in front of an english word

As defined by the dictionary I was required to have for Eng 101 in my first year of college, "The American Heritage College Dictionary"

We've been through this. Stop rummaging through your dictionary whenever you run out of rebuttals.

A-or an- pref. Without; not: amoral [Gk.]

Theism: n. Belief in a god or gods, esp. belief in a personal God as creator and ruler of the wrold [sic] -theist n.

Therfore [sic], we can place the two together and we have "without God" or "not God.

No, we have "Without belief in God." Supporting my standpoint.

Placeing [sic] "anti" in front of "theist" is saying the same thing.

No it isn't.

And would you please quit with the name calling

Fails to follow his own advice in the next sentence:

an angry little boy who could use some xanex.

pssssstt

i think the reason why the dictionary says a doctrine that says there is no God, is because there are eastern 'doctrines' that teach about reincarnation, the after life and all that jazz but go on to say there is no 'God'

its just trying to incorporate everyone who claims to be atheist, from spiritual believer to non spiritual beleiver

"NOT BELIEVING in god rather than BELIEVING THERE IS NO god"

Am I the only one here who thinks this statement is a paradox?

Inserting my age has nothing to do with security. My points is that I have been here for 28 years and have never heard someone propounding anti-theism before. I would venture to guess the reason why is because there is no need for it since atheism is the exact same thing. I will retract my statement about the xanex....you sir need a lobotomy because your vicious brand of double think needs to be eradicated before it become virulent and begins infecting the rest of the human population. The last thing we need is more stupid people populating this overpopulatd planet of ours. If you want to throw shit than I'll go monkey with you.

Originally Posted by zeneyes

"NOT BELIEVING in god rather than BELIEVING THERE IS NO god"

Am I the only one here who thinks this statement is a paradox?

Lack of belief vs. belief? Not A != A

have never heard someone propounding anti-theism before

I've never been to Hawaii, that means that Hawaii doesn't exist.

I haven't seen God, therefore there is no God either.

Inserting my age has nothing to do with security.

Instead of arguing with logic, you are inserting irrelevant points. It is very clear that you are insecure about something.

I will retract my statement about the xanex....you sir need a lobotomy because your vicious brand of double think needs to be eradicated before it become virulent and begins infecting the rest of the human population. The last thing we need is more stupid people populating this overpopulatd planet of ours. If you want to throw shit than I'll go monkey with you.

You're obviously a troll. I'm arguing my case; all you are doing is refusing to understand an argument I've explained three times already. You are only here to insult and deride people smarter than you.

I refuse to respond to your posts from now on.

Originally Posted by hungrymanz

Why don't you think for yourself, you moron. You think a dictionary is going to tell you anything about the world? Try to find in there how to write a check or how to ride a bike.

Atheism is not a doctrine or belief any more than knowing Harry Potter doesn't exist is a doctrine. For instance: there is no Dumbledore who can fire spells and fly on broomsticks. This is something you know, not something you believe.

This was your first post in relation to me and my views.

From your last post to me:

"You're obviously a troll. I'm arguing my case; all you are doing is refusing to understand an argument I've explained three times already. You are only here to insult and deride people smarter than you."

So it's alright and intelligent, and somehow proves your point to address me for the first time by accusing me of not being able to think for myself and calling me a moron. Then when I finally stumble to your level in an attempt to get through to you, you try to take the moral high ground. You should really look into becoming a politician.

I understand the difference between a belief and a lack of a belief, but when they are both saying the same thing, "there is no God" than in this sense there is no difference. One is said with certainty while the other is sweetend by the word belief, either way there is no difference in what is being said about the concept of God. And how did you explain this three times, you simply refered to your first statement.

Originally Posted by zeneyes

This was your first post in relation to me and my views.

From your last post to me:

"You're obviously a troll. I'm arguing my case; all you are doing is refusing to understand an argument I've explained three times already. You are only here to insult and deride people smarter than you."

So it's alright and intelligent, and somehow proves your point to address me for the first time by accusing me of not being able to think for myself and calling me a moron. Then when I finally stumble to your level in an attempt to get through to you, you try to take the moral high ground. You should really look into becoming a politician.

I understand the difference between a belief and a lack of a belief, but when they are both saying the same thing, "there is no God" than in this sense there is no difference. One is said with certainty while the other is sweetend by the word belief, either way there is no difference in what is being said about the concept of God. And how did you explain this three times, you simply refered to your first statement.

I've never met an atheist who was certain that there was no god. Meaning that they never said that they know that there is no god. Most atheists are rational and open to all possibilities.

Most religious people will say that they know that they have the right religion,belief,god ect. Atheists do not have this arrogant and irrational point of view.

Originally Posted by Rakjavik

Atheists do not have this arrogant and irrational point of view.

just by saying all atheists never have an arrogant irrational point of view, would make you arrogant o_O

whether or not you are arrogant, pig headed, an asshole or what not has NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR RELIGION OR LACK OF THERE OF

Originally Posted by juroara

just by saying all atheists never have an arrogant irrational point of view, would make you arrogant o_O

whether or not you are arrogant, pig headed, an asshole or what not has NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR RELIGION OR LACK OF THERE OF

Saying that your traits have "nothing" to do with religion is absolutely false.

For example: Christianity preaches that its worshippers must be kind and loving. This either gives Christians the trait of being kind, or the trait of being hypocrites, if they are not kind.

In your example you used "arrogance," which is simply another trait - I could easily construct my own religion that preaches arrogance, and then use the same reasoning as I applied above to prove you incorrect.

Also: atheists are more likely to be rational people who think for themselves; worshippers of religion tend to be unthinking sheep. This is NOT an absolute - not ALL atheists are rational. It is simply a quality that the majority of atheists have, and the majority of religious nuts lack.