Thread: A challenge for the Atheist

The concept of God represents a severe lack of imagination.

Originally Posted by Xei

The concept of God represents a severe lack of imagination.

The concept of an invisible gigantic man in the sky with magic powers seems pretty imaginative to me bro.

Originally Posted by Photolysis

Ultimately though, these things aside, I don't see any real problems with your beliefs. The same does not apply to a lot of religious beliefs though.

thank you! i take this as a huge compliment, and think it shows that aethiests dont seem to be as single minded as they say they are'nt.

Originally Posted by Lucid_boy

You know, I'm a fellow christian so I hate to say this but I feel I must. It sounds like you've taken all the warm and fuzzy parts of the faith, decided to believe in those and ignored any part that might compell you to higher standards such as Sin or hell. It seems like you've looked at all the scary parts and said, "I can do whatever I want, they don't exsist." Your definition of God sounds like someone on to many antideppresents with no real feeling or thought.

Thats all I felt like saying, I apologize if I have offended you, this is why we have diffrent sects of the faith.

im not offended at all, simply looking for more truth.
why cant i take the warm and fuzzy parts and ignore the others? its my belief, if i may quote my catholic godmother on this, the bible is like lubys, take what you want, leave what you dont. some

Originally Posted by Photolysis

What's more moral, a person who acts kindly because he believes it's the right thing to do, or a person who acts that way out of fear?

someone doing it out of kindness. that is my final thought on the matter.

Originally Posted by aorozco

you know what i find to be funny about this huge debate of wether god and jesus and the spirit and hell and heaven exist is there are two things that can happen.

i believe in god and all, and when someone decides to say god doesn't exist it's okay cause this is what wil happen, either i am wrong, and there is not a god and i lived a fulfilling life, without the alcohol, and drugs , and no one gets to say i told you so cause there would be nothing after death, or i could be right and god does exist and i am saved and lived a fulfilling life and i don't get screwed. either way i will be fine. so that really should be what it comes down to.

this is a lot of what i think, i agree with a lot of this, why not just be on the safe side? god exists? were in heaven, yay! god dosnt exist? we go to the same place the aetheists go, which is apparently no where.

Originally Posted by Scatterbrain

Or it turns out Allah exists and you go to hell for worshipping a false god your whole life.

Or Bakna'lesh, the god of intoxication, exists and punishes you for abstaining from drugs and alcohol.

Or [imagine another god] exists, etc.

allah? in a way, i think allah is god, i may be deist here, but god is everywhere, even though he dosnt have the same name in all places. as for gods that supposedly promote unethical behavior, i think someone was just trying to get what they wanted, much like how chistianity has been transformed today.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Then you are disobeying your religion's "holy" book.

Also, feel free to resurrect an old thread of mine and add to the discussion. It sums up a lot of my disagreement.

http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...finitely+happy

you guys crack me up, "our holy book" is the most pretentious overly hyped about book in the world, it was NOT written by god, or even jesus, i do not believe anyone that wrote it was a mouthpiece of god, but simply an overly dramaticized vesion of the truth. im agreeing with you here, the bible has most likely been tampered with countless times, and holds little truth to me.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Belief is not a choice.

THIS, is completly false, i chose to believe in christ, whether my family told me to or not, i am subjected to raw aethism every day, and i have a choice whether or not to believe in god.

thanks for your thoughts everyone, i was expecting flames, thank you for being so mature about the subject.

I see how is, they all get a reply but not me

Originally Posted by Avalon Jr.

THIS, is completly false, i chose to believe in christ, whether my family told me to or not, i am subjected to raw aethism every day, and i have a choice whether or not to believe in god.

You misunderstand what he is saying. You actually believe christ exists. Whatever reasoning faculties you have have led you to that conclusion. There is a difference between agreeing and choosing.

He wasn't saying you are "forced" to believe, though technically I think you were, he was saying your reasoning faculties which lead you to believe a thing have nothing to do with choice, but instead with what you agree constitutes enough evidence or proof. You can no more choose to believe that your hair color is naturally blonde, than you could choose to believe that it is naturally green. You could no more choose christ exists over not exists.

In honesty if you are "choosing" to believe, then you aren't actually believing. When you believe something that means that there is nothing, short of new evidence, that could lead you to think that it is otherwise. If your belief is a choice then that means you are capable of choosing that he doesn't exist. This means that the evidence, in your eyes, must be so severely lacking that you actually know jesus didn't exist but instead pretend he does. Unless, of course, you misunderstand what he is saying and believe he was saying that you were forced into believing it by your parents (which technically, you can fight all you want, is true anyway), but that isn't what he was saying.

Originally Posted by Sandform

You misunderstand what he is saying. You actually believe christ exists. Whatever reasoning faculties you have have led you to that conclusion. There is a difference between agreeing and choosing.

He wasn't saying you are "forced" to believe, though technically I think you were, he was saying your reasoning faculties which lead you to believe a thing have nothing to do with choice, but instead with what you agree constitutes enough evidence or proof. You can no more choose to believe that your hair color is naturally blonde, than you could choose to believe that it is naturally green. You could no more choose christ exists over not exists.

In honesty if you are "choosing" to believe, then you aren't actually believing. When you believe something that means that there is nothing, short of new evidence, that could lead you to think that it is otherwise. If your belief is a choice then that means you are capable of choosing that he doesn't exist. This means that the evidence, in your eyes, must be so severely lacking that you actually know jesus didn't exist but instead pretend he does. Unless, of course, you misunderstand what he is saying and believe he was saying that you were forced into believing it by your parents (which technically, you can fight all you want, is true anyway), but that isn't what he was saying.

Yes. Very well put.


Avalon, I am going to give you one of my old challenges. Believe for one day that you are a billionaire movie star. Then tell us what it was like. Will you do that?

My favourite examples are:

For 10 seconds absolutely believe there is no God

Walk off a ledge (any height) and absolutely completely believe you will defy gravity.


It can't be done.

believe in god and all, and when someone decides to say god doesn't exist it's okay cause this is what wil happen, either i am wrong, and there is not a god and i lived a fulfilling life, without the alcohol, and drugs , and no one gets to say i told you so cause there would be nothing after death, or i could be right and god does exist and i am saved and lived a fulfilling life and i don't get screwed. either way i will be fine. so that really should be what it comes down to.

Except it doesn't work like that. There are many other possibilities you fail to consider, for example:

There is a god, but not the one you believed in. You are punished for worshiping a false god.
There is a god and an afterlife, but the god does not care in the slightest what you believe as long as you lived a good life and are a good person
There is no god and no afterlife, and you have wasted a significant portion of your limited time, and likely at a monetary cost worshipping a non-existent being

Also I live an enjoyable life without using alcohol or drugs. Not for any moral reasons I will admit, but if you're trying to imply that people with religion never do drugs, and that everyone who doesn't believe in a religon supports their use, this would be false. It's certainly misleading and irrelevant.

Originally Posted by Scatterbrain

Or it turns out Allah exists and you go to hell for worshipping a false god your whole life.

Or Bakna'lesh, the god of intoxication, exists and punishes you for abstaining from drugs and alcohol.

Or [imagine another god] exists, etc.

very true. but well if that happens i would just say, crap, cause there is nothing more i can do. and allah (if really was god) would understand my intent in worshipping god.

Originally Posted by Sandform

The underlined text is meaningless to your point. Many irreligious people "live a fulfilling life, without the alcohol and drugs."

Meanwhile look up pascal's wager to understand the lack of logic behind the statement that either "there is nothing" or "I am rewarded." scatterbrain already tried to show you the flaw in your thought pattern of using pascal's wager.



You believe either "there would be nothing after death" or "i am saved." Those are not the only two possibilities.

hhmmm well that is interesing i will look it up. and i agree that many people live with out drugs, but i as a christia do believe that you need to accept god in order to go to heaven and you need to treat your body like a temple not let it rot away, but like i said you still need to believe in god and all.

Originally Posted by Photolysis

There is a god, but not the one you believed in. You are punished for worshiping a false god.
There is a god and an afterlife, but the god does not care in the slightest what you believe as long as you lived a good life and are a good person
There is no god and no afterlife, and you have wasted a significant portion of your limited time, and likely at a monetary cost worshipping a non-existent being

i will agree, but god is allknowing, and in the end he is the one who makes the call of wether you are saved or not. if allah was the actual god then allah would not be unfair. allah would know who had what intent. because god knows that. it's kinda like that questionn some people ask, if a man is walking toward a church and is ready to get baptized and gets hit by a truck, does he go to heaven? god is the judge on that so it is most likely a yes.

now i really do have to say that i do not intend to force anyone to become christian or to hear me "preach" so i see nothing wrong with believing in god. as for the atheists, i wont judge you because it is not my place. if you don't believe in god, then just don't, all that i really am going to do is say hey there is a god, and he loves you. choose to believe me if you want, if you don't then okay. you know?

choose to believe me if you want, if you don't then okay. you know?

It's not a matter of choosing to believe. It's that us atheists (I think I can make a generalisation here) see no reason to believe your beliefs; faith by definition is belief without a reason to believe.

there is a god, and he loves you

So you have no faith? If you know something you cannot have faith. And faith not knowledge is the center of religious beliefs.

The concept of an invisible gigantic man in the sky with magic powers seems pretty imaginative to me bro.

Well yeah...

I was coming at it from the,

I wonder how I have come to exist in this world which provides all of the things I need? I know! Maybe some giant guy in the sky who loves me who I can't see because he's invisible made it for me! That explains absolutely everything...

angle.

Originally Posted by Photolysis

What's more moral, a person who acts kindly because he believes it's the right thing to do, or a person who acts that way out of fear?

Both persons "do" what they believe is the good and right choice to do.

I think you mean: "Which demonstrates more moral awareness? A kindly act or a selfish act?"

Originally Posted by Photolysis

There is a god, but not the one you believed in. You are punished for worshiping a false god.

Yes, you are "punished", so to speak, by believing in a false God. However, the error is to think that the Real God "out there" is punishing you. Actually, the Kingdom Of God is within everyone of us, and all suffering arises from ignorance. Hence we are punished by ourselves (our egotistic judgments, arrogance and selfishness).

Originally Posted by Photolysis

faith by definition is belief without a reason to believe.

No, that is merely what it may look like.

Originally Posted by Photolysis

So you have no faith? If you know something you cannot have faith. And faith not knowledge is the center of religious beliefs.

Faith allows for spiritual understanding to unfold.

Originally Posted by Xei

The concept of God represents a severe lack of imagination.

Just like the species of flying fish represent a "severe" breakthrough in marine engineering?

Originally Posted by ClassyElf

The concept of an invisible gigantic man in the sky with magic powers seems pretty imaginative to me bro.

It is pretty imaginative, considering how assuming and distorted such a view is. Its fundamental assumption is generally brought about by misinterpreting anthropomorphic scriptures (about God, which is impersonal).

Scriptures sometimes hold a dogmatic image, when the projections of the ego and personifications can't be told apart from the essential meaning and motivation of the stories. Remember that, in Christian scriptures for example, "dogma", as a generalization, was introduced by the Church, not by Jesus. Consider also the limitations of communication and expression in the given sociocultural context.

Originally Posted by Xei

I was coming at it from the,

I wonder how I have come to exist in this world which provides all of the things I need? I know! Maybe some giant guy in the sky who loves me who I can't see because he's invisible made it for me! That explains absolutely everything...

angle.

That "angle" is actually quite arbitrary. Do you seriously think the founder of Christianity, Jesus Christ, had taught this, let alone asserted it?

I have a question that I've always wondered, so here it goes - What is the point of prayer? Surely your god already knows what you are going to pray for beforehand - and therefore has already decided on his course of action. Is it not absurd to think that "you" an insignificant human being can persuade the omnipotent, omniscient being - your god - to change his mind? If it is not absurd, please tell me why.

Oh ye. And if you believe that "god" created the universe - what was the point of creating a universe so massive for such a small and insignificant species like humans? Isn't that kind of inefficient for such an efficient, all powerful being that does not make mistakes?

Originally Posted by SpecialInterests

I have a question that I've always wondered, so here it goes - What is the point of prayer? Surely your god already knows what you are going to pray for beforehand - and therefore has already decided on his course of action. Is it not absurd to think that "you" an insignificant human being can persuade the omnipotent, omniscient being - your god - to change his mind? If it is not absurd, please tell me why.

First of all, we are not insignificant. We're divine, however the great majority of us are unaware.

If we are to pray, it is a symbol of intention for the highest good. It is not out of some egotistical gain or selfishness. It comes with faith that there is something greater than your awareness waiting to be "discovered". Prayer can help align one with the intentions and faith.

Originally Posted by SpecialInterests

Oh ye. And if you believe that "god" created the universe - what was the point of creating a universe so massive for such a small and insignificant species like humans? Isn't that kind of inefficient for such an efficient, all powerful being that does not make mistakes?

These kind of questions are hard to answer, mainly because they're not really asking anything specific. They're mixed with misinterpretations and relative ego-views. Like: "Why do leaves grow off trees? Aren't trees big enough and able to live without them? What's the point of them growing if they just fall off?"

Originally Posted by really

if we are to pray, it is a symbol of intention for the highest good. It is not out of some egotistical gain or selfishness. It comes with faith that there is something greater than your awareness waiting to be "discovered". Prayer can help align one with the intentions and faith.

I have not heard too many prayers that do not ask god for something. I feel most people need something. Even if it is guidance, it is for ones own best interest.

Comparing a tree with an Omnipotent god is not that great of an analogy.
fyi, the shedding of leaves plays an important role in the cycle and life of a tree.

Originally Posted by Howie

I have not heard too many prayers that do not ask god for something. I feel most people need something. Even if it is guidance, it is for ones own best interest.

Comparing a tree with an Omnipotent god is not that great of an analogy.
fyi, the shedding of leaves plays an important role in the cycle and life of a tree.

Quiet, you. It was an evergreen. LOL

How you wish you could get away from the ultimate of truths. No man or men could have made this up. The reality in which we live is the same how else could we share eachothers thoughts. A lot of which we do is not controlled by or mind it is controlled by god. Who in the time before Christ would have had the wisdom to make ten commandments for all of humanity to follow and end up were we are now. At Least that's what I think.

Originally Posted by DotheDishes

No man or men could have made this up. .

You'd be surprised with what desperate people are capable of...

Originally Posted by Dimethyltrip

You'd be surprised with what desperate people are capable of...

You think Jesus was desperate?

Originally Posted by really

You think Jesus was desperate?

No, but Jesus never wrote the bible it's from hundreds of mainly unknown sources.

Jesus seemed to be a revolutionary man but we know very little about his history.

Religion is just another label to smack on to someones forehead to further seperate people. It's used to divide up the rest of society. Religion is used as a barrier, and used as a lullaby to not question authority.

"You think Jesus was desperate?"

I don't think Jesus was desperate - Now if you ask me if I think the people that wrote the bible were desperate, I'd give you a totally different answer.

Originally Posted by DotheDishes

The reality in which we live is the same how else could we share eachothers thoughts.

TRU

Originally Posted by DotheDishes

A lot of which we do is not controlled by or mind it is controlled by god.

ARE THEY ONE IN THE SAME? in all reality

Originally Posted by love2dream

TRU



ARE THEY ONE IN THE SAME? in all reality

Sorry, what?

one's mind and god

where does it take you

Originally Posted by love2dream

one's mind and god

where does it take you

You can't just say that anecdote and then run off with it in your imagination. It is easy to imagine God as consciousness and if God is manifested as the Mind - but elaborate. What else is God then? What are the limits? How does this affect death? Do you have free will still? Are you an individual if God is your mind? Are you still able to make decisions if God is mind? How powerful is it? Where did it start?

All of life's questions cannot be answered with a vague anecdote.

~

I havn't read the posts above me because i cba to do that.
But i am not atheist i am my own relegion, I don't understand why some people have to create such arguements over things that could very well possibly be make belief. Why try to preach to people, About something that happened well over 500 years ago. No one is sure what happaned, Everyone should be able to do what they want, The world is for everyone.. They claim god created all of us, But why does he create the people that go crazy and kill everything in sight? Why does he kill people off the earth in such harsh ways, Believe it or not.. God is a being of hate, That is all this world is made of, Power and Hate. When the power of love becomes stronger than the love of power, we will have peace If gays want to be gays, Let them live their life.. It is only their decision.. If they are choosing that way and if you christians claim they will go to "hell" that is their own decision.. I do not go to church, I do not read that book called the "bible" Send me to hell, Because meh? Im a sinner.. Satan ill be waiting..