Thread: Question for athiests...

Originally Posted by davej

I am open minded to listen, not saying i will accept it.

Do you understand the concept of natural selection?

What are the three conditions that have to be in place for natural selection to occur?

Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned

I used the word 'fact' twice. Once in quotes and once without it. I'm not expounding the virtues of accepting impermanent and socially subjective "facts" either. I'm parroting the observation that they are what makes a society a society. Do you disagree? There seems to be a pretty strong case for that but I'm of course open to a good argument to the contrary.

What I am expounding is the necessity that these impermanent and socially subjective "facts" match up with the immutable and physical facts when such facts are known. The latter category is not at all subjective.

On the whole though, I do think that, while they are necessary, there are too many "facts" and that they get in the way when we hold on to them too tightly or there are too many of them. Just a few will do and it should be known that they are subjective.

Immutable and objective (as being the opposite of subjective) are words that the majority uses to give gravity to the facts they would compel the minority to accept. There was a time when the existence of god was an immutable fact, and that may easily come again. Like I said, you follow a particular world view rigidly enough as to convince you to take at least some of your beliefs for granted as absolute and infallible. This strikes me as odd, because believing in science the way you seem to is completely opposed to the ideal scientific perspective, which is that anything could be true, and one must constantly test the world around them in order to arrive at the most internally consistent and encompassing assumptions as possible. There is a limit to what your belief system can include and so you stop, and declare your level (on at least a few subjects) the pinnacle and that none should go further.

I don't deny that facts create society and actually this could be used as the crux for my personal world view. What I deny is that the society you wish to live in is superior to the one others wish to live in.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

Immutable and objective (as being the opposite of subjective) are words that the majority uses to give gravity to the facts they would compel the minority to accept. There was a time when the existence of god was an immutable fact, and that may easily come again. Like I said, you follow a particular world view rigidly enough as to convince you to take at least some of your beliefs for granted as absolute and infallible. This strikes me as odd, because believing in science the way you seem to is completely opposed to the ideal scientific perspective, which is that anything could be true, and one must constantly test the world around them in order to arrive at the most internally consistent and encompassing assumptions as possible. There is a limit to what your belief system can include and so you stop, and declare your level (on at least a few subjects) the pinnacle and that none should go further.

I have to dismiss that. If somebody wants to go further than evolution by natural selection and come packing an argument for it, I would be thrilled. Every honest, scientifically minded person would be. It would be a new non-trivial fact. We love those. Evolution would still have occurred though as that is a fact. It would be a new explanation for it that complemented our current understanding of the Neo-Darwinian model.

Do you think that literal biblical creationism is even close enough to that to warrant giving it the time of day?

I don't mean to offend you but I get the feeling that I'm arguing with something of a solipsist here in that you seem to be implying that objective facts do not exists outside of a cultural context.

EDIT: Also, I reject the comparison of the statement that asserting physical fact as immutable and objective is at all comparable to asserting that theological beliefs are immutable and objective. One is necessarily objective regardless of if people believe it or not and the other is necessarily subjective.

Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned

I don't mean to offend you but I get the feeling that I'm arguing with something of a solipsist here in that you seem to be implying that objective facts do not exists outside of a cultural context.

I'm not implying, I am arguing exactly that, although I don't call myself a solipsist. find a culture with no words for scientific method(to be cliche, a backwoods tribe) and tell me if they can even formulate an idea about evolution or electromagnetic force, let alone decide if they believe in them or not. The scientific concept of Evolution does not exist to such a people because it has no bearing whatsoever on the way they live their lives.

Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned

EDIT: Also, I reject the comparison of the statement that asserting physical fact as immutable and objective is at all comparable to asserting that theological beliefs are immutable and objective. One is necessarily objective regardless of if people believe it or not and the other is necessarily subjective.

This I can agree with. Long after the physical plane has faded away, god is.

Yes I know what natural selection is. I believe in adaptation (a dog growing a thicker coat of hair to survive colder winters after many years) but that is about it.

Originally Posted by davej

Yes I know what natural selection is. I believe in adaptation (a dog growing a thicker coat of hair to survive colder winters after many years) but that is about it.

And that's about wrong.

"I believe it's possible to take 15 steps to the kitchen but I don't believe it's possible to walk 200 meters to the grocery store."

Makes sense.

Christianity doesn't affect me. I consider it to be a bunch of misguided old stories for misguided people. Fortunately I also live in Britain which is a very secular nation (50% atheist and increasing), and these silly stories aren't forced upon anybody. So I really don't care, although I do sometimes despair of the foolishness of my fellow human beings.

Christians Established First hospitals

Christians can be proud to know that they virtually invented hospitals. Christians early on began to take care of the poor and sick in their neighborhoods.

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-55553285.html

Yummy Christian Cadburys

Christians apparently founded...

http://www.tptl.org.au/helen_cadbury.htm

Gravity from Isaac N.

Cheers Brother!

http://www.newton.ac.uk/newtlife.html

Healthcare, Gravity and Chocolate. Gotta give'm some credit =P

tbh none of that is particularly due to Christianity, just Christians... I doubt Isaac had any theological reasons for discovering the laws of mechanics and calculus.

Yea I see what your saying. I just wanted an excuse to quote multiple things. It looks so pro, eh?

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

This strikes me as odd, because believing in science the way you seem to is completely opposed to the ideal scientific perspective, which is that anything could be true, and one must constantly test the world around them in order to arrive at the most internally consistent and encompassing assumptions as possible. There is a limit to what your belief system can include and so you stop, and declare your level (on at least a few subjects) the pinnacle and that none should go further.

You know, for a long time, I thought I was the only person on DV to understand this.

Originally Posted by davej

How does Christianity REALLY effect you... How does someone being a christian effect you? Besides those people that won't leave you alone while walking down the sidewalk or in the mall or whatever. Those people get on my nerves as well.

People that instantly reject me as a human being because I question their bronze-aged beliefs affect me.

And anyway, last time I checked, 75% of the US identifies as Christian. Do you understand the significance of 3/4 of the populations vote coming mainly from people who believe the earth is 6000 years old, science is the devil and Dick Cheney was the greatest president the united states has ever had?

It absolutely affects me, because I have to share a planet with these ignorant people.

Originally Posted by davej

How does Christianity REALLY effect you... How does someone being a christian effect you? Besides those people that won't leave you alone while walking down the sidewalk or in the mall or whatever. Those people get on my nerves as well.

I think this thread should be titled "Question for everyone who isn't a Christian."

Originally Posted by A Roxxor

People that instantly reject me as a human being because I question their bronze-aged beliefs affect me.

So you have definitively proven that every single theist in the world is that bigoted? Well ain't that a kick in the pants. I always thought I was at least tolerant of those whose lifestyles I disagree with, but I guess because Roxxor says I'm automatically bigoted based on what I may or may not believe in (after all, how does he know what I believe?), it must be true.

Guess I should do the world a favor and commit suicide. NOT.

Originally Posted by A Roxxor

And anyway, last time I checked, 75% of the US identifies as Christian. Do you understand the significance of 3/4 of the populations vote coming mainly from people who believe the earth is 6000 years old, science is the devil and Dick Cheney was the greatest president the united states has ever had? It absolutely affects me, because I have to share a planet with these ignorant people.

...You said WHO was ignorant, now? I mean, are you serious? Half the people who identify themselves as Christian (such as myself) don't even go to church, and could justifiably be classified as agnostic. Saying "I believe in the existence of God" does not make it compulsory that we also believe our planet was literally just born (when carbon dating can prove this planet is billions of years old); that the human population began with two people (as it would have required mass inbreeding, which causes mutations galore in our genetic code); or that people who don't believe what we believe are all heathens, going to hell and that we should pelt them with rocks every time we see them.

Seriously, people's hatred of theists is just as sad and misguided as the ever-common fear of arachnids: Only a minority of them are actually willing/able to hurt you. Just leave them the fuck alone.

Originally Posted by Lëzen

So you have definitively proven that every single theist in the world is that bigoted? Well ain't that a kick in the pants. I always thought I was at least tolerant of those whose lifestyles I disagree with, but I guess because Roxxor says I'm automatically bigoted because of what I may or may not believe in (after all, how does he know what I believe?), it must be true.

Guess I should do the world a favor and commit suicide. NOT.

I really don't recall typing "ALL Christians" or even alluding to that. Oh and hey, my post reflects that.

Learn to read, please.

...You said WHO was ignorant, now? I mean, are you serious? Half the people who identify themselves as Christian (such as myself) don't even go to church, and could justifiably be classified as agnostic. Saying "I believe in the existence of God" does not make it compulsory that we also believe our planet was literally just born (when carbon dating can prove this planet is billions of years old); that the human population began with two people (as it would have required mass inbreeding, which causes mutations galore in our genetic code); or that people who don't believe what we believe are all heathens, going to hell and that we should pelt them with rocks every time we see them.

So you doubt the existence of god yet identify as Christian? I call that stupidity. Clearly you have no understanding of the myth you choose to identify with else you would have realized that being unsure is not the point, blind faith is. Explain that one please.

Why don't you identify as Pastafarian as well? Surely the ideas are equal as neither is falsifiable.

And yes, noöne in the US likes atheists. They see us as inherently evil. Don't go making yourselves sound victimized here.

Seriously, people's hatred of theists is just as sad and misguided as the ever-common fear of arachnids: Only a minority of them are actually willing/able to hurt you. Just leave them the fuck alone.

No, it is based on the fact that anyone who accepts a specific doctrine of the supreme as written by man as true is deluding themselves in the hope of personal gain.

Originally Posted by A Roxxor

I really don't recall typing "ALL Christians" or even alluding to that. Oh and hey, my post reflects that.

Learn to read, please.

Regardless of whether you used the word "ALL", it renders your statement as a...what was that G word? Oh yeah, "generalization".

Learn to use the word "some", please, lest you make yourself out to be a generalizing ass.

Originally Posted by A Roxxor

So you doubt the existence of god yet identify as Christian? I call that stupidity.

Funny, I was about to say the same thing in regards to the fact that you don't know jack shit about Christianity - obviously - by asserting, in no uncertain terms, that there is only "one way" to believe in the Christian God. I guess there's no such thing as Catholicism, Protestantism, Methodism, Mormonism, 7th Day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses...all of which represent a DIFFERENT take on the SAME religion.

WHO doesn't understand jackfuck about Christianity, now?

Originally Posted by A Roxxor

And yes, noöne in the US likes atheists. They see us as inherently evil. Don't go making yourselves sound victimized here.

Ah, yes, the old "It's okay for the minority to hate the majority, but when it happens vice-versa, it's called discrimination" cop-out. Fuck off.

Originally Posted by A Roxxor

No, it is based on the fact that anyone who accepts a specific doctrine of the supreme as written by man as true is deluding themselves in the hope of personal gain.

...Do I even need to comment? Obviously you are someone of the mindset that if a person identifies with one thing, they and ALL others identify with it must, somehow automatically, adhere to what whatever stereotypes you believe to be associated with them. Because basically, you're saying all religious people are out for power and dominance. Which is basically the same as saying that all parallelograms are rectangles.

Originally Posted by Lëzen

Regardless of whether you used the word "ALL", it renders your statement as a...what was that G word? Oh yeah, "generalization".

Learn to use the word "some", please, lest you make yourself out to be a generalizing ass.

Are you a complete idiot?

How the fuck is the statement "People that instantly reject me as a human being because I question their bronze-aged beliefs affect me." a generalization?

Funny, I was about to say the same thing in regards to the fact that you don't know jack shit about Christianity - obviously - by asserting, in no uncertain terms, that there is only "one way" to believe in the Christian God. I guess there's no such thing as Catholicism, Protestantism, Methodism, Mormonism, 7th Day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses...all of which represent a DIFFERENT take on the SAME religion.

WHO doesn't understand jackfuck about Christianity, now?

You. Those are ritualistic and clergy differences, the core of all is exactly the same EXCEPT for a few, such as Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons. Everyone else believes that if you truly believe in Jesus as the son of God then you will have everlasting life.

Ah, yes, the old "It's okay for the minority to hate the majority, but when it happens vice-versa, it's called discrimination" cop-out. Fuck off.

No, not really. Wtf? Not when the majority is wrong. When did I ever use the word 'discrimination'?

...Do I even need to comment? Obviously you are someone of the mindset that if a person identifies with one thing, they and ALL others identify with it must, somehow automatically, adhere to what whatever stereotypes you believe to be associated with them. Because basically, you're saying all religious people are out for power and dominance. Which is basically the same as saying that all parallelograms are rectangles.

...

Nevermind. You are an idiot.

Originally Posted by A Roxxor

Are you a complete idiot?

Ah, personal insults. Really grown-up of you. I believe you've just shown me your mental age, if not your real one...

Originally Posted by A Roxxor

How the fuck is the statement "People that instantly reject me as a human being because I question their bronze-aged beliefs affect me." a generalization?

Hm. Well, gee. Let's see. You come waltzing into a thread wherein the OP asks for a reason why atheists have such a big problem with theists.

Theists are the subject.

Then you lay on a statement like that, which must pertain to - what else - the subject. So in essence, you're saying "Theists are people that instantly reject me as a human being because I question their bronze-aged beliefs affect me." Instead of elaborating, you just leave it at that? What the fuck are people supposed to think, other than that you're implying that ALL theists are "haters who don't like me, boo hoo hoo". Say what you mean and mean what you say, or, as they say on the internet, GTFO.

Originally Posted by A Roxxor

You. Those are ritualistic and clergy differences, the core of all is exactly the same EXCEPT for a few, such as Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons. Everyone else believes that if you truly believe in Jesus as the son of God then you will have everlasting life.

So first of all, when did I ever question that Jesus was the son of God? That much is universal for all sects of Christianity. I suggest you reread my post and show me, if you can, where I might have said "some Christians don't believe Jesus is the son of God". Then won't I look foolish?

All I said (if you remember) was that not all Christians are compelled believe - unquestioningly, anyway - the obviously bullshit aspects of the Bible, like the aforementioned Adam and Eve shit. What it sounds like to me is that you are actually advocating the rigidity and inflexibility of the Christian belief system. Some shit, huh? And here I thought atheists were actually pushing for a world in which theists would come one step closer to embracing that which can be explained logically. I guess not, eh? Because by your attitude, I can basically either believe in God and shun evolution, or vice versa, but not a little bit of both. Whose side are you on again?

Moreover, I can believe that God exists, that Jesus was His son, and all that whatnot, without having to believe every other thing thus written in the Bible...or any version thereof, for that matter. Can a book full of such fantastic, obviously unrealistic scenarios really be true, or is it more like a fictional book meant to teach people morals? That's for me and me alone to decide, and who the fuck are you to tell me that I'm somehow against my own religion for it?

Originally Posted by A Roxxor

No, not really. Wtf? Not when the majority is wrong. When did I ever use the word 'discrimination'?

You obviously have no clue what discrimination is, if you really have to ask that. Generalizing - which is something you've done oh-so-brilliantly, by the way - is a form of discrimination. Dunno if you knew that, but...now you know.

And if the majority wants to believe there's an all-powerful wizard man making all the decisions for them, that's their own goddamn business, not yours. So what if that all-powerful wizard man happens to tell them that homosexuality, for example, is wrong? As long as they don't go around openly calling gay people "faggots" and beating the tar out of them and whatnot, it does not directly affect you. So why the hell should you even care?

...Obviously because you're obsessive, but that's not the issue here.

So you disagree with them, and they disagree with you. Cry me a fucking river. If I got depressed every time someone disagreed with me, I'd have committed suicide long ago (or maybe not, since suicide is for the weak IMO). No matter what theists believe, they're no different from anyone else - no more inferior, and definitely no more superior. They still put their pants on one leg at a time. They eat, sleep, fuck, pay bills and die, like anybody else. If they silently shake their heads in disapproval at the (perceived) immoral things you do, why not take it in stride and say "Well, what's wrong for you may not be wrong for me" and go on about your life? Instead of pissing and moaning about it, as you seem to be so good at.

Originally Posted by A Roxxor

Nevermind. You are an idiot.

More juvenile insults...a sure sign of copping-out. A word of advice: Don't waltz into Extended Discussion thinking that all DV members are going to help back up your cockamamie, petty little generalizations based on your own personal experiences.

...Okay, so some of them will in fact back you up, but that will only serve to prove my point that some atheists can be just as arrogant, judgmental, and quick to blame the other side as some theists can be at times.

Notice that I used the word some. That's because even though a lot of atheists I know are complete dickheads, others are just swell people, regardless of what their belief system entails.

Lezen, angry white male.





Here in Portugal supposedly over 90% of the population is religious but I suspect that among the younger generations the number is much much lower, I haven't seen anyone around my age express religious belief in ages. Every now and then I even test the waters by throwing in a joke about jesus or god and everyone laughs instead of getting offended.

So mostly I'm good. But I still feel ripped off from having attended to church when I was a kid/pre-teen.

Lëzen, your whole argument is stupid.

You don't know what the scientific process is. In science, there are ideas that are just outright trash and not worth the time of day.

So scientists don't take every idea that comes along seriously. Nor should they. That's a fact. So stop acting like they do.

Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned

Lëzen, your whole argument is stupid.

You don't know what the scientific process is. In science, there are ideas that are just outright trash and not worth the time of day.

So scientists don't take every idea that comes along seriously. Nor should they. That's a fact. So stop acting like they do.

I believe you are actually refering to my argument, and what I said was that that was the ideal scientific perspective. I said nothing about the process. Obviously one would get no where if they didn't build off of the assumptions that they have already made. They ideal scientific perspective, however, knows that they are assumptions and accepts nothing as immutable, or infallible. This perspective knows that anything can turn out to be completely different, even though it continues to operate on these assumptions. No scientist should be afraid of starting over from scratch.

I am indifferent as long as we don't go debating. If you start to debate then you are already going to hostile ground.

Everyone is free to believe anything they want if they need faith to have meaning in life.

Hm. Well, gee. Let's see. You come waltzing into a thread wherein the OP asks for a reason why atheists have such a big problem with theists.

Theists are the subject.

Then you lay on a statement like that, which must pertain to - what else - the subject. So in essence, you're saying "Theists are people that instantly reject me as a human being because I question their bronze-aged beliefs affect me." Instead of elaborating, you just leave it at that? What the fuck are people supposed to think, other than that you're implying that ALL theists are "haters who don't like me, boo hoo hoo". Say what you mean and mean what you say, or, as they say on the internet, GTFO.

No, I said that people that do that affect me. Those people are all Christian. It is not a generalization. Shut the fuck up.

Originally Posted by davej

Yes I know what natural selection is. I believe in adaptation (a dog growing a thicker coat of hair to survive colder winters after many years) but that is about it.

Nooguh 2.0