Thread: Question for athiests...

Originally Posted by ninja9578

Try coming to America, we're overrun with christians here. What do you think of people doing bad things in the name of Jesus? Bush for instance.

Yeah, I've noticed. It's kinda crazy. And I think the Jesus-excuse is about as bad as they get
But then again there's a lot of other things in the US that I disagree with.
Also, I have been there twice, but in California and New York. Not as many outspoken Christians there.

It's actually the same throughout most of Europe. It's a very secular continent except for a select few countries; most Americans hardly believe it.

Originally Posted by kingerman

1 Corinthians 2:13-15
13This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. 14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. ... [ Insert random meaningless biblical mambo- jambo] ... [ More of it ] ... Your Body will decay as will the world knowledge you have gained, die with you. .. [ Some drunken man ramblings who thought it would be fun to trick his fellow man to believe he was a prophet of some god, who has a character full of conflicts] ...

Where will you be then? Only those who have the Holy Spirit within them, will be raised to eternity. It is the Spirit within them that will raise them up. If you don't have it, do you know what happens to you? You need to find out.

Did you know I have the lost pages of the New Testament, the famous collection of letters made by great prophet Bullsshiattus the Second? He was the greatest of our Lords prophets. It says right here, written in the papyrys that God allows me, as one of his precious children, to rape every beautiful woman I meet and sacrifice their bloody hair to Him. It has also many interesting commandments..

I repeat : an imaginary entity. Your answer hasn't proof anything else but requirement of meaningless faith over a thing that has no rational reason to be true.

Let's start with homosexuality.I don't know why homosexuality is wrong

.

Maybe you don't know because it isn't? Think a bit of that. I have already said not to label things morally wrong because no human has no right to do so, since it is all subjective. There are just consequences. In addition, before you take the higher power argument, I remind you that just because the imaginary entity has said something in your head, it is just a human opinion.

But one thing I can say is that when God made man and woman, He made them to fit perfectly together. Think about this, when two people of the same sex come together, they do not fit perfectly, one has to take on the opposite role or use some form of substitution. When you have one man and one woman, no substitutions are necessary; there's a perfect fit, and only God can create such perfection.

There is no such thing as perfection. Quite simple really. If your god wanted homosexuality banned, why doesn't he just do like he did before? Just throw some fireballs from heaven to us sinners? Maybe because he has grown fond to homosexuals, maybe he is even bisexual himself? Or then again, he doesn't exist. Quite rational, isn't it?

Your atheism is a choice.
I thank God for my Freedom and that you can make that choice.
What you need to know for future purpose:
"Him who come untoeth me,
I shall in no wise cast out".

Of course it is. So is your choice of being theist. I, however, don't want to willingly submit into a slavery. Chained by our mind, is that what you want? I am embracing the true freedom. Freedom of thoughts and freedom of mind. You are merely a pale comparison as long as you run on faith. My regrets.

Let me clarify my words in a nicer manner "disease".No but it's It's lack of understanding and false thinking.

I really don't want a theists to judge my rational thinking. You go on faith, you don't think rationally. I think with my mind, I don't need to believe anything. So, without knowledge you cannot understand. Without reason and rational thinking, you can never know. Conclusion : I have a greater chance of being correct than you, since you entrust your decision on faith.

About Atheists being good people.I would say that most people become atheists as a result of a painful experience, or abuse. They cannot understand how God would allow this or that, or they can't relate to God because of their warped view of father-figures (or lack theory), etc.

Statistically, atheists are the most likely to have grown up without a father figure, and interestly, are the most likely living a unfullfilling life.They don't like the idea of someone holding them accountable for their actions.

What a pathetic excuse. I don't see your logic here. ( Might be because you don't have a one). Again, we go with the "good people" stuff. Regardless, if I was ever hurt or gone through an abuse, it is far more probable that I would be praying my knees open. I would need some kind of "greater help" since I am weak and pathetic myself and low with my self-esteem. However, I am a very strong individual who doesn't bow to any imaginary entity. If he wants me to bow, then he has to make it. I have no fear of god or any other, so I think that is also inprobable.

You are right in one thing, though. I don't want anybody else accountable of my actions, since I am free person and I carry the responsibility of my actions. In contrary to the many religious groups who justify their actions with gods or whatever. They sicken me. Every mortal is responsible of his own actions.

Säälittävä ihmisriekale.

I find the lack of understanding argument very strange. Have you ever read Origin of Species? How about A Brief History of Time?

Originally Posted by kingerman

Let's start with homosexuality.I don't know why homosexuality is wrong. But one thing I can say is that when God made man and woman, He made them to fit perfectly together. Think about this, when two people of the same sex come together, they do not fit perfectly, one has to take on the opposite role or use some form of substitution. When you have one man and one woman, no substitutions are necessary; there's a perfect fit, and only God can create such perfection.

First of all, thank you for completely ignoring my earlier post and then just repeating the arguments I defeated. I will attempt another round of this.

As for the "perfect fit" thing, homosexuals have two holes and two hands with ten fingers each. Use your imagination. I don't see the relevance of your argument any way. An orange doesn't fit perfectly in your mouth. You have to be inventive and either cut it up or peel it. Are oranges the work of Satan?

Originally Posted by kingerman

Your atheism is a choice.
I thank God for my Freedom and that you can make that choice.
What you need to know for future purpose:
"Him who come untoeth me,
I shall in no wise cast out".

Explain how belief is a choice. How can one choose to believe something that truly seems illogical to him? Assertion is not the same argument. Back up what you are saying. Can you choose to believe that hamsters invented the airplane?

Originally Posted by kingerman

About Atheists being good people.I would say that most people become atheists as a result of a painful experience, or abuse. They cannot understand how God would allow this or that, or they can't relate to God because of their warped view of father-figures (or lack theory), etc.

You forgot to say, "Excuse me while I change the subject." I would also like to see proof of your tangential argument.

Originally Posted by kingerman

Statistically, atheists are the most likely to have grown up without a father figure, and interestly, are the most likely living a unfullfilling life.They don't like the idea of someone holding them accountable for their actions.

So, you assume atheists are really theists having temper tantrums with their eyes closed and hands on their ears and going, "La la la la la, God is not really there! I don't acknowledge God!" Do you think there is even one person in the world who honestly doesn't believe God exists?

I challenge you to answer my questions and counter my points this time. If you don't, I am going to know why.

Originally Posted by kingerman

Let's start with homosexuality.I don't know why homosexuality is wrong.

Proof that you do not think for yourself.

But one thing I can say is that when God made man and woman, He made them to fit perfectly together. Think about this, when two people of the same sex come together, they do not fit perfectly, one has to take on the opposite role or use some form of substitution. When you have one man and one woman, no substitutions are necessary; there's a perfect fit, and only God can create such perfection.

I think what was said about oranges is a perfect counter-example. Are you able to recognize that fact though?

Furthermore, do not make the gross prejudice that homosexual couples try to emulate heterosexual couples; it only demonstrates your ignorance and closed-mindedness.

Consider that people can love each other without trying to label or categorize their gender types. Consider that two women or two men can have a relationship without feeling the need to emulate a stereotypical relationship.

Your atheism is a choice.

Wrong.

Everyone is born Atheist.

You chose to believe in God. The onus is on you to prove to yourself that God exists. It is not for us to recognize that God exists. Nor can you prove that God exists but to yourself.

Just like an imaginary friend. It is a dogmatic leap of faith.

But what do we call those people that live their lives in accordance to something that is only real to them?

I thank God for my Freedom and that you can make that choice.
What you need to know for future purpose:
"Him who come untoeth me,
I shall in no wise cast out".

How are you free if God has decided everything for you to think and do?

You have already admitted that you do not know why you think the morals you think.

You have already admitted to not having an individuality.

Thus, how are you free?

A perfect slave is one that believes that they are free but still does the work.

Romans 8:1 "I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing
with the glory that will be revealed in us. The creation waits in eager expecation for the sons of God to be revealed".

In response to every one of your quotations, I will counter with another that you must accept - from the same chapters. If you truly believe that you must adhere to one part of the bible, you must do so to the rest. But I will be more specific for you now.


Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;


Contradiction - if Jesus is the Lord, why is he born from a seed of flesh?


Romans 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.


Self-explanatory.


Romans 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.


Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.


Faith supersedes the law. Thus, you can do unlawful things that are still aligned with God (eg. kill abortion doctor's is a big one, but how about killing homosexuals? or oranges?)


Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


Wrong - Adam and Eve never existed. A simple browse through a fossil museum will illustrate this.

As a conclusion of you quoting a chapters from Romans, you must also adhere to the fact that all humans descended from the same two people (which is wrong by fact), that doing unlawful deeds is justified if done so by faith, that women are only good for sex, and that Jesus is a God but also a man at the same time which is an obvious contradiction.

I could quote more for you - from the same book - on request.

Let me clarify my words in a nicer manner "disease".No but it's It's lack of understanding and false thinking.

Interesting thing to say considering you do not think for yourself and admit to that.

About Atheists being good people.I would say that most people become atheists as a result of a painful experience, or abuse. They cannot understand how God would allow this or that, or they can't relate to God because of their warped view of father-figures (or lack theory), etc.

Wrong. It is quite the opposite.

As researched by psychologist Lee A. Kirkpatrick and Bowlby;

"...certain aspects of adult religiosity, particularly beliefs about God and having a personal relationship with God, can be predicted from the interaction of childhood attachment classification and parental religiousness. Respondents who classified their childhood relationships as avoidant ... were more religious as adults, according to several measures, than were those classifying their childhood relationships as secure or anxious/ambivalent. Respondents in the avoidant category also reported significant higher rates of sudden religious conversions during both adolescence and adulthood irrespective of parental religiosity. These results suggest that God and religion ma function in a compensatory role for people with a history of avoidant attachment; that is, God may serve as a substitute attachment figure."

http://lakirk.people.wm.edu/

Statistically, atheists are the most likely to have grown up without a father figure, and interestly, are the most likely living a unfullfilling life.They don't like the idea of someone holding them accountable for their actions.

Still wrong, as shown above. You ought to learn how to support your statements with evidence rather than conjecture. Otherwise, you look like an ignoramus.

Originally Posted by kingerman

1 Corinthians 2:13-15
13This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. 14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment.

Another justification from the book that does all the thinking for you. Of course, it is better if the slave believes that they cannot understand your orders for then they will follow them without question.

Furthermore, let me quote some more problems from the very same book.

Corinthians 2 1:3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;


God is not merciful - a brief review of how he treats those that are unfaithful, women, gay, etc. will illustrate this.


Corinthians 2 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.


Oh nevermind, I found a contradiction in the same book. Apparently God is both merciful and terrible. Or is he a living contradiction that envelopes all things?

Corinthians 2 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.


Jesus was born without sin, then made into sin, thus making the real sinners sinless.


Corinthians 2 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?


Don't marry someone who doesn't believe what you believe. Also, don't be friends with them either.


Corinthians 2 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.


Oh, fear of God now. So much for mercy.


Corinthians 2 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;


Apparently the bible also says you do not think for yourself... and that you adhere to no thinking for yourself because all your thoughts are of Christ.

Enough of this book. I am sure you may not even reply to them.

Do we need to prove anything to you? He is not invisible to those who believe in him. His very Presence is with us every day. He is as real as our next breath. Just because you can't see him, doesn't mean he isn't real. He just isn't real to you. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned. You have to reach out for the truth in your spirit, with a sincere heart. On that day you will find him.

In the words of Friedrich Nietzsche,

"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."

You are trying to understand from an intellectual point of view.

Is this another way of saying that the faithful are not intellectual and do not think?

We are Mind, body and Spirit. Some people are not aware of their spiritual side at all. Sad, because that is really the only one that counts. Your Body will decay as will the world knowledge you have gained, die with you. Where will you be then? Only those who have the Holy Spirit within them, will be raised to eternity. It is the Spirit within them that will raise them up. If you don't have it, do you know what happens to you? You need to find out.

What would you think of your life if you wasted it all away by doing and thinking what you are told?

You have been given a lucky chance to be able to think and breathe and here you are wasting it away on something that has no reason or justification. It is a myth and exists only because of tradition and a group of other delusional people who think it is real. Of course, a delusion is all the more powerful if more people believe it.

Who is the real one losing out? Where will you be when you die? Nowhere, there is no spirit and there is no soul - these are more vague and ill-defined and imaginary concepts that soften mans fear of death and glorify their purpose in life. It is an egotistical and arrogant thing to think that you are the center of existence.

What you will lose in the end is your life. It will be a waste. Your life will be nothing but that of a sheep or a slave that willingly wears the collar while holding the key the whole time.

~

Originally Posted by O'nus

Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;


Contradiction - if Jesus is the Lord, why is he born from a seed of flesh?

Its a contridiction if you think that Jesus and the Father are one in the same.

Originally Posted by ShadowNightWing

Its a contridiction if you think that Jesus and the Father are one in the same.

Who was Jesus' father?

Supporting that Joseph is:

Acts 2:30
Therefore being a prophet [David], and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne.

Acts 13:23
Of this man's seed [David's] hath God, according to his promise, raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus.

Romans 1:3
Concerning his son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh.

2 Timothy 2:8
Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David. ....

Hebrews 2:16
For verily he [Jesus] took not on him the nature of angels, but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Revelation 22:16
I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David.

Supporting that he is not:

Matthew 1:18
When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

Matthew 22:45
Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David. He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?

Mark 12:35-37
And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the son of David? For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool. David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son?

Luke 1:31-35
And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring for a son, and shalt call his name Jesus .... Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be seeing I know not a man. And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee.

~

Originally Posted by ninja9578

God didn't make anyone, evolution did. Only trial and error a hundred trillion times can make something perfect. That's evolution, not god. If god hates homosexuals, why did he make them?

Most atheists I know were made so from education. The more you know about science, the less religion makes sense. Where are you getting the stats that atheists don't have father figures? When responding look at the publisher of the study, christian studies are notorious for fudging numbers, find me a study done by a member of the academy of science.

First off all i might not be able to answer all questions due to time (i don't like the idea that i have to sped 2 hours plus writing replies to so many posts) but i will try to invest some time daily)

Science theories all state that something else caused something else to happen. Yet, when you reach the end of the chain, there's nothing there to change into something else. What comes before what created everything else?It's a paradox. Science cannot explain how something came from nothing. No matter what you do, there WAS SOMETHING before. If there was nothing there, how can something come from NOTHING. I thought that was scientifically proven impossible.

Science, I'm sorry to say, doesn't fill in the blanks for me. Religion does. All the puzzle pieces fit, and it makes perfect sense. At least, to me.

Another question I have, is if evolution is so true, than survival of the fittest would be the rule of thumb, right? Well, than, how do you explain the fits of kindness and benevolence mankind has shown? Even at risk of their own lives. Animals do not do that, risk their lives for someone that is not part of their pack. And yet humans risk their lives for people they do not know all the time. That's not survival of the fittest. So, how do you explain that phenomena? It doesn't fit with the idea of evolution or survival of the fittest.

Also, I find the idea of evolution about as egotistical as the idea of our world being the center of the universe, the sun revolving around the Earth, etc. Somehow, throughout time, science has made us look very important in the grand scheme of things. The Bible says we are not very high up in the grand scheme of things at all.This bothers some people, I have noticed.

Perhaps the human ego is too large?
Science is the search for truth; or is supposed to be, while the Bible is the truth!Religion makes more sense because so many things in science can be contradicted with legit evidence while religion can't be proven wrong in any way.

Originally Posted by kingerman

Science theories all state that something else caused something else to happen. Yet, when you reach the end of the chain, there's nothing there to change into something else. What comes before what created everything else?It's a paradox. Science cannot explain how something came from nothing. No matter what you do, there WAS SOMETHING before. If there was nothing there, how can something come from NOTHING. I thought that was scientifically proven impossible.

Nobody ever said that there was nothing and then something.

Originally Posted by kingerman

Science, I'm sorry to say, doesn't fill in the blanks for me. Religion does. All the puzzle pieces fit, and it makes perfect sense. At least, to me.

Definitely. It's easier to just make up answers than look for them. It's also dishonest to say that science doesn't fill in the blanks, when you don't know much about science at all.

Originally Posted by kingerman

Another question I have, is if evolution is so true, than survival of the fittest would be the rule of thumb, right? Well, than, how do you explain the fits of kindness and benevolence mankind has shown? Even at risk of their own lives. Animals do not do that, risk their lives for someone that is not part of their pack. And yet humans risk their lives for people they do not know all the time. That's not survival of the fittest. So, how do you explain that phenomena? It doesn't fit with the idea of evolution or survival of the fittest.

Feats of benevolence? Like the holocaust? Inquisition etc.? It's great of you to single out one thing in an effort to disprove evolution, while leaving out contradicting evidence, very scientific. Oh sorry, you don't believe in science.

Animals do lots of things you describe and again just leave out. Wolves have raised human babies. Dolphins save people from drowning etc. Every once in a while you hear a story how some animal did something extreme to save a person.

Leaving all those things out, one can still easily show how "kindness" evolved. It's simply beneficial to a group to support its members (you can look on youtube to see animals save their own from lion or something for example). This is not hard to understand. It's obvious that social animals form a bond and stick together to increase their survival. With humans it could just be more complex in some cases. Why would you think that these things can't emerge from nature?

Originally Posted by kingerman

Also, I find the idea of evolution about as egotistical as the idea of our world being the center of the universe, the sun revolving around the Earth, etc. Somehow, throughout time, science has made us look very important in the grand scheme of things. The Bible says we are not very high up in the grand scheme of things at all.This bothers some people, I have noticed.

How is the theory which sufficently defines the course of lifes evolution according to all avalible evidence egotistical? Science can't make us look like anything, it's objective, that's the whole point.

Religions, on the outher hand, are the ones who take the right to make up how the universe works. Isn't that egotistical? I'd say it is.

Originally Posted by kingerman

Perhaps the human ego is too large?
Science is the search for truth; or is supposed to be, while the Bible is the truth!Religion makes more sense because so many things in science can be contradicted with legit evidence while religion can't be proven wrong in any way.

Yes the human ego is very large. For example, most gods were created in human image, they have human characteristics often times both physically and psychologically.

Science is the search for truth, yes. Exactly for that reason you'll find new evidence that contradicts existing theories, because it doesn't claim absolute knowledge, it looks for it. And it has produced more than satisfactory results by the way. Your computer for example.

I'm sorry that you managed to get brainwashed to a point where the synonym for Bible is truth. The Bible is a 2000 year old book full of contradictions and false information. In what way is that truth?
"Religion" has been proven wrong in many different ways. Hiding from the truth (again) won't make it any less true.

Originally Posted by kingerman

Science theories all state that something else caused something else to happen. Yet, when you reach the end of the chain, there's nothing there to change into something else. What comes before what created everything else?It's a paradox. Science cannot explain how something came from nothing. No matter what you do, there WAS SOMETHING before. If there was nothing there, how can something come from NOTHING. I thought that was scientifically proven impossible.

Mixing primordial ooze with lightning can and has spontaneously created life.

Another question I have, is if evolution is so true, than survival of the fittest would be the rule of thumb, right? Well, than, how do you explain the fits of kindness and benevolence mankind has shown? Even at risk of their own lives. Animals do not do that, risk their lives for someone that is not part of their pack. And yet humans risk their lives for people they do not know all the time. That's not survival of the fittest. So, how do you explain that phenomena? It doesn't fit with the idea of evolution or survival of the fittest.

That is survival of the fittest, the stupid ones die and the smart ones don't engage in stupid activities. The advent of health care also backtracks evolution.

Also, I find the idea of evolution about as egotistical as the idea of our world being the center of the universe, the sun revolving around the Earth, etc. Somehow, throughout time, science has made us look very important in the grand scheme of things. The Bible says we are not very high up in the grand scheme of things at all.This bothers some people, I have noticed.

Wrong, the church was the one who claimed the earth was the centre and the sun revolved around earth, science refuted that long ago.

Science is the search for truth; or is supposed to be, while the Bible is the truth!Religion makes more sense because so many things in science can be contradicted with legit evidence while religion can't be proven wrong in any way.

The bible is not any more fact than Peter Pan. Name something in science that can be proven wrong so easily? Science deals with observable reality, imperial inquiry, and repeatability; not magic and spells. The way things are proven wrong is by finding a counter example. Oh, I found one, it's a fossil which is a million years old, much older than the bible says the earth is, the bible is wrong.

Mixing primordial ooze with lightning can and has spontaneously created life.

where did the primordial ooze and lightening come from lol

Space. Primodrial ooze is nothing but complex chains of hydrocarbons, which were created by extreme heat and pressure from supernovae and inside the cooling earth itself. The water came from comets hitting the earth in it's early existence. The earth's early atmosphere was largely carbon dioxide and sulfuric acid, and much thicker than today. Lightning storms would have lasted for millennia.

Originally Posted by kingerman

First off all i might not be able to answer all questions due to time (i don't like the idea that i have to sped 2 hours plus writing replies to so many posts) but i will try to invest some time daily)

Science theories all state that something else caused something else to happen. Yet, when you reach the end of the chain, there's nothing there to change into something else. What comes before what created everything else?It's a paradox. Science cannot explain how something came from nothing. No matter what you do, there WAS SOMETHING before. If there was nothing there, how can something come from NOTHING. I thought that was scientifically proven impossible.

Science, I'm sorry to say, doesn't fill in the blanks for me. Religion does. All the puzzle pieces fit, and it makes perfect sense. At least, to me.

Another question I have, is if evolution is so true, than survival of the fittest would be the rule of thumb, right? Well, than, how do you explain the fits of kindness and benevolence mankind has shown? Even at risk of their own lives. Animals do not do that, risk their lives for someone that is not part of their pack. And yet humans risk their lives for people they do not know all the time. That's not survival of the fittest. So, how do you explain that phenomena? It doesn't fit with the idea of evolution or survival of the fittest.

Also, I find the idea of evolution about as egotistical as the idea of our world being the center of the universe, the sun revolving around the Earth, etc. Somehow, throughout time, science has made us look very important in the grand scheme of things. The Bible says we are not very high up in the grand scheme of things at all.This bothers some people, I have noticed.

Perhaps the human ego is too large?
Science is the search for truth; or is supposed to be, while the Bible is the truth!Religion makes more sense because so many things in science can be contradicted with legit evidence while religion can't be proven wrong in any way.

Firstly : science makes no claims about why this stuff is here, it just makes the observation that 13.7bn years ago the Big Bang happened.

The 'solution' religious people such as yourself propose is that 'God did it'. This is not a solution at all; it makes the problem more complicated. Now you have to explain where God comes from; a conscious being capable of creating an entire universe. The defence is then, 'God doesn't need a cause because he is special in some way'; this is also a complete failure of logic because you might just as well just say 'the universe doesn't need a cause because it is special in some way', as no attempt is given to explain why a causeless event must be God, and the latter is much simpler.

Secondly: no, an animal's genes have a greater chance of surviving if animals look after their relatives. And this is observed in nature all over the place...

Thirdly: even you must think that's a bit ridiculous. We have two options: in the first one, humans are just another organism which have evolved like every other organism by natural selection and passive processes; in the second one, humans are the most important creatures in the entire universe who were created specially by God who gave them the rights to rule the entire planet and all of the other animals on it.

How can you even say that evolution is more egocentric? That's the most stupid thing I've ever heard.

And it's also completely immaterial because the only reason we have evolution is because of the huge amount of evidence that supports it, not ego.

To be frank i'm not really very knowledgble on all this science and evolution stuff.I just wish that people would realise that we are in fact living in the end times.There was a prediction about saying the pope that we have is the second last pope.As much as me saying the predictions are riduculous on my other thread.Can't really say it never made any sense as i haven't really fully read it that time when i posted the thread.As it turns out it seemed to have some truths.I'd say the max we would possibly have is 15 years at most.As the lord said that no man knows the day or hour when he would return.

I would quote someone who claims to have a vision of Hell in 2006(Bill Wiese).True or not we can never tell but the messages he sends is right.

Originally Posted by

When I got my composure, at least enough to start forming thoughts, I thought about saying to the Lord, I don't even think I asked Him out loud, I just thought it and He answered me. I said, "Lord why did You send me to this place? Why did you send me here?" He said to me "Because people do not believe that this place exists." He said "Even some of my own people do not believe this place is real." I was shocked at that statement. I thought every Christian has got to believe in Hell. But not everyone believes in a literal burning Hell. I said Lord "why did you pick me?" But He didn't answer me on that question.

I have no idea why He picked me to go there. I'm the least likely to go to this place. My wife and I hate evil movies. We hate anything bad. I don't even like the summer time, much less heat. It's filthy. There's no order. It's all chaos and disorder and disgusting. And I love everything orderly and excellent. He didn't answer me on that question. He said to me, "Go tell them that I hate this place, that it's not my desire for one of my creation to go to this place, not one! I never made this for man. This was made for the devil and his angels. You have to go and tell them! I've given you a mouth, you go and tell them."

I thought to myself, "but Lord, they're not going to believe me. They're going to think I'm crazy or had a bad dream." I mean wouldn't you think that? As I thought this the Lord answered me and He said, "It's not your job to convince them. It's the Holy Spirit’s job! You just go and tell them!" And it was just inside, "Yes Sir!" Absolutely, I have to go and tell them." You can't worry and fear what man is going to think of you, you just have to go and do it and let God do the rest. Amen? And I said, "Lord, why did they hate me so much?" "Why did these creatures hate me?" He said, "Because you're made in my image, and they hate me." You know the devil can't do anything against God. He can't hurt God, per say, but he can hurt His creation. That's why the devil hates mankind, and deceives him into taking him into Hell. And he inflicts diseases upon him, anything he can do to hurt God's creation.

This is from the Rapture website that i mentioned earlier


The Rapture

This is an event that will not be hidden. The concept of the rapture has already been made known to the masses. It will be treated with ridicule, contempt and mockery by the world's media, but God will see to it that it will be highly publicized before it occurs just so that those left behind might still come to their senses. It will occur in the open, and everybody left behind will know someone who was raptured.

It will happen suddenly, unexpectedly, and lightning fast--"in the twinkling of an eye," as the Bible puts it. And there will be evidence all over the world that this event occurred. Some national leaders will disappear, celebrities in entertainment and professional sports will disappear, entire families will disappear, disbelieving spouses will see their mates vanish, children will disappear. Bank accounts, homes, cars, businesses and relationships will be left behind. The problem for the world's leaders will be trying to convince people that it didn't happen. Because if the world's leaders admit that it did happen then, logically, everything Christians preached about Jesus Christ being the Son of God, the Savior, the Messiah, the Prince of Peace, the Lord of Lords and King of Kings and everything that Jesus preached and taught must be true. And if all of this is true, then the only logical response would be to fall on one's knees before God in confession and repentance and absolute submission to every word of God (as revealed in the Bible). But all of this is diametrically opposed to the way of the world, which preaches freedom from the constraints of God's word, perverse sex, materialism and the devaluation of human life. So, although the rapture will shock everybody and will be covered in the media and everybody left will be aware of someone who is gone, the leaders of the world will begin their great deception, trying to convince the population left behind that there was no rapture.

How is this going to be accomplished? Well, pretty easily because most of the people left behind are already in a state of deception. They have been deceived into believing that Jesus is not the Messiah; they have been deceived into believing that the word of God is not true; they have been deceived into living a lifestyle that only brings constant pain and suffering instead of the freedom and paradise that God offers. The world's leaders will declare that there was no rapture, that a mass hysteria took place, and the news media will follow the party line. Then to make things easier, shortly after the rapture, one-fourth of the world's population will be decimated due to wars, famine and plague. Those who were raptured will be counted among the dead.

After the Rapture

Shortly after the rapture, a seven-year period known in the Bible as the Great Tribulation will take place. It will begin with the signing of a peace agreement between Israel and her enemies and it will end with the physical return of Jesus Christ to set up His kingdom on earth. In between, will be seven years of terror for those on earth.

In 1 Thessalonians, in the New Testament of the Bible, the apostle Paul talks about the 'end times' and a sudden, unexpected calamity that comes upon the world.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 - "... The Day of the Lord will come just as a thief in the night. When they say "Peace and security," then sudden destruction comes on them..."

Then a few lines down, 1 Thessalonians: 5:9 reads: "For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."

According to Paul, when the world is saying "Peace and security", sudden destruction hits... however as then stated by Paul, believers in Christ are not 'appointed' to this wrath, which comes upon the world and starts the Tribulation, which includes the Anti-Christ ruling for 42 months and the entire period believed by many theologians to last up to 7 years.

Jesus said:

John 14:1-3 - "Your heart must not be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in Me. In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if not, I would have told you. I am going away to prepare a place for you. If I go away and prepare a place for you, I will come back and receive you to Myself, so that where I am you may be also."

With this well known passage by Jesus, we have proof that God has prepared a new world for his faithful believers. Of course, this leaves us with the question: "When will faithful believers be taken there?"


Left Behind and 666 (the Mark of the Beast)

Revelation 3:3 - Remember therefore what you have received and heard; keep it, and repent. But if you are not alert, I will come like a thief, and you have no idea at what hour I will come against you.

What happens to people who don't escape God's judgement on the world, who are stuck on Earth for the period of Tribulation? Who wake up one morning and discover that people are missing?

Obviously, they have to take part in it. These are the unbelievers and Christians of half-hearted faith who finally repent and turn away from wickedness and profess full love and faith in God during the time of Tribulation.

This group must cope with the rule of the infamous Anti-Christ and refuse to worship him or his image, and refuse 'the mark' that enables people to buy and sell under the Anti-Christ's temporary new world order.

Many of these Christians are reported by the Bible to be executed for refusing the mark of the Anti-Christ – these Christians choose execution, because the alternative is eternal torment in Hell, which is the punishment promised by God if his people take the mark (so if you are left behind, whatever happens, do not take the mark).

On top of that, natural disasters will be occuring all across the world, with greater frequency and terrifying effects. Earthquakes, hurricanes, tsunamis, heat waves, famine, plagues – in many places these disasters will be so widespread that the Anti-Christ will be the least of peoples' concerns.

In the end of all of this i would hope that this has changed your viewpoint.If it has not then well continue living your lives of but always remember what you read here.

Do not be tricked by the devil.

And as for Christians what are your opinions?

Kingerman, what makes your brand of bullshit better than any other religion's?

Religion is a big pile of crap that requires a person to discard their brains for it to work. Regardless, evolution is a fact, god does not exist, and we don't know how the universe got here. Those are real issues and you people and your fairy tales do nothing but complicate the politics of it all.

Originally Posted by kingerman

To be frank i'm not really very knowledgble on all this science and evolution stuff.I just wish that people would realise that we are in fact living in the end times.

Note that kingerman has now explicitly stated, several times, that they do not think on their own and do not know why they believe what they believe. Kingerman is willingly admitting to being ignorant and believing something for no reason at all.

Further evidence:

Let's start with homosexuality.I don't know why homosexuality is wrong.

Kingerman also quoted Corinthians to support his argument. If Kingerman is to accept one part of this book as support and something they believe in, they must also accept his part of the book:

Corinthians 2 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

The above shows how Kingerman also accepts that all his thoughts are nothing but the obedience to Christ.

Again, nothing is better than a slave that willfully wears the collar and believes that they are free. Let us not forget that they can take off the collar at any time.

You are trying to understand from an intellectual point of view.

Another quote supporting that Kingerman suggests that he does not think.

There was a prediction about saying the pope that we have is the second last pope.As much as me saying the predictions are riduculous on my other thread.Can't really say it never made any sense as i haven't really fully read it that time when i posted the thread.As it turns out it seemed to have some truths.I'd say the max we would possibly have is 15 years at most.As the lord said that no man knows the day or hour when he would return.

You will find that, within the history records, that every generation is so selfish as to believe that the world will end in their lifetime.

From Fulcher of Chartres, to the Renaissance, to the World Wars. There have always been fools preaching the prediction of the fall of Earth based off of other rambling morons who have no reason to believe in the end of the world.

Perhaps you could actually support what you are saying instead of simply spewing random statements with no evidence or justifications at all.

There is nothing more worthless than a statement with no substance.

I would quote someone who claims to have a vision of Hell in 2006(Bill Wiese).True or not we can never tell but the messages he sends is right.

What of the ones who envisioned hell in the Islamic faith? What of the Vikings? What of the Buddhists? They say the samething you are - why do you not subscribe to them then? What makes your religion so much more right than theirs?

This is from the Rapture website that i mentioned earlier

The Rapture
......

Again, many others say the samething. In fact, here are other people claiming how the world will end;







So, if your logic is that, if you can predict the rapture, that it will happen.. then it seems that there are a million ways that the world will end. How are you sure your way is more right than these?

In 1 Thessalonians, in the New Testament of the Bible, the apostle Paul talks about the 'end times' and a sudden, unexpected calamity that comes upon the world.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 - "... The Day of the Lord will come just as a thief in the night. When they say "Peace and security," then sudden destruction comes on them..."

Then a few lines down, 1 Thessalonians: 5:9 reads: "For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."

Quotes from the Bible again. Since I have already demonstrated why believing in Armageddon is ridiculous, I will continue the past venture which you have failed to acknowledge. If you are using these lines as justifications, let us also examine what other problems arise from the exact same book you are using;

Thessalonians 2 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

Thessalonians 2 2:16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

+ You ought to argue, then, that Jews ought to be killed.

Thessalonians 2 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

+ Perfect, I was hoping this would happen. It appears that even Paul himself thought armageddon would come in his lifetime but it did not. And you know why? Because it is a lie to scare people in a religion.

Thessalonians 2 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Thessalonians 2 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

+ More evidence that Paul was wrong about the time of the Rapture. You still want to continue this path of ignorance?

I can quote more, from the same book, on your request.

John 14:1-3 - "Your heart must not be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in Me. In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if not, I would have told you. I am going away to prepare a place for you. If I go away and prepare a place for you, I will come back and receive you to Myself, so that where I am you may be also."

With this well known passage by Jesus, we have proof that God has prepared a new world for his faithful believers. Of course, this leaves us with the question: "When will faithful believers be taken there?"

Precisely. Apparently, you are so selfish as to believe within the next 15 years... which is also what Paul believed.. and he was wrong.. and he wrote what you are using to justify your beliefs that it will happen. Need I say more?

Just for a few kicks, let us examine John for a few complications;

John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

John 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

+ If it is claimed that Jesus was raised as a spirit after his death, then why would he be speaking of his body that will raise? Or why is Paul speaking of it then?

John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

+ Jesus apparently does not understand weather patterns.

John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

+ Precisely; Jesus was wrong that there was no Adam and Eve, there was no flood, wrong about weather patterns... so why would you believe a fool?

John 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

+ A problem of pain and suffering from a just and living God; God punished sinners physically but does not heal them.

More quotations available upon request.

Left Behind and 666 (the Mark of the Beast)

Revelation 3:3 - Remember therefore what you have received and heard; keep it, and repent. But if you are not alert, I will come like a thief, and you have no idea at what hour I will come against you.

What happens to people who don't escape God's judgement on the world, who are stuck on Earth for the period of Tribulation? Who wake up one morning and discover that people are missing?

Obviously, they have to take part in it. These are the unbelievers and Christians of half-hearted faith who finally repent and turn away from wickedness and profess full love and faith in God during the time of Tribulation.

This group must cope with the rule of the infamous Anti-Christ and refuse to worship him or his image, and refuse 'the mark' that enables people to buy and sell under the Anti-Christ's temporary new world order.

Many of these Christians are reported by the Bible to be executed for refusing the mark of the Anti-Christ – these Christians choose execution, because the alternative is eternal torment in Hell, which is the punishment promised by God if his people take the mark (so if you are left behind, whatever happens, do not take the mark).

On top of that, natural disasters will be occuring all across the world, with greater frequency and terrifying effects. Earthquakes, hurricanes, tsunamis, heat waves, famine, plagues – in many places these disasters will be so widespread that the Anti-Christ will be the least of peoples' concerns.

In the end of all of this i would hope that this has changed your viewpoint.If it has not then well continue living your lives of but always remember what you read here.

Do not be tricked by the devil.

Again you continue with Armageddon talk instead of actual conversation. You are not trying to have a conversation, you are just regurgitating what you have been told.

But what ought we expect from someone who also admits to not thinking for themself, having thought, or a sense of individuality? Also admittedly following someone who is too stupid to understand weather, history, disease control, and is proven wrong by their own context.

Since you have quoted one of the most notorious books of the bible, I will verse a few key quotations just for you;

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Revelation 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
Revelation 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

+ Notice that Paul still believes that "the time is at hand" and within his lifetime... yet, 2000 years later, he is still very wrong.

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

+ Simply impossible.. unless your on a flat earth. No fool would actually believe the earth is flat so.. oh wait..

Revelation 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

+ Uh oh.. Jesus likes to commit adultery. I guess you do to.

Revelation 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

+ Again, to drive the nail further in, it is evident that the Rapture was believed to occur very soon but it is very wrong as it has been a long time since this bronze-aged "prediction".

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

+ If the Sun becomes black, it is not because of the apocalypse.. but because the Sun is exploding. Also, the moon cannot become blood. This is just absurd. This is like saying "Triangles will become square".

Revelation 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

+ Sorry.. the earth has how many corners..? It's flat..?

Honestly, kingerman, you believe the world is flat? Do we need to demonstrate otherwise to you?

Perhaps you could actually acknowledge responses that take part of your own logic.

~

Yey Daniel Faraday. :V

Space. Primodrial ooze is nothing but complex chains of hydrocarbons, which were created by extreme heat and pressure from supernovae and inside the cooling earth itself. The water came from comets hitting the earth in it's early existence. The earth's early atmosphere was largely carbon dioxide and sulfuric acid, and much thicker than today. Lightning storms would have lasted for millennia.

Ok so where did hydrocarbons, supernovae, heat, cooling, earth, water, comets, atmosphere, carbon dioxide, sulfuric acid come from?

Originally Posted by davej

Ok so where did hydrocarbons, supernovae, heat, cooling, earth, water, comets, atmosphere, carbon dioxide, sulfuric acid come from?

Scientists will not make the leap to presume what they think it all came from unless there is empirical evidence for it. There is no undeniable evidence of any of it, yet, but it is in the works (namely from the LHC). Someone who makes the leap of presuming where it all comes from, makes that leap knowing that it is based off of no justification, logic, or evidence at all - you may as well say it was a pink elephant that made everything. We cannot prove otherwise..

..yet.

Originally Posted by Xei

Yey Daniel Faraday. :V

I really don't get what that means...?? Who is that?

~

Scientists will not make the leap to presume what they think it all came from unless there is empirical evidence for it. There is no undeniable evidence of any of it, yet, but it is in the works (namely from the LHC). Someone who makes the leap of presuming where it all comes from, makes that leap knowing that it is based off of no justification, logic, or evidence at all - you may as well say it was a pink elephant that made everything. We cannot prove otherwise..

Ahhhh so there is something about the creation of the universe that science can't prove...
I guess an argument against God creating the universe becuase you can't prove it is not up for discussion any more then.

Originally Posted by davej

Ahhhh so there is something about the creation of the universe that science can't prove...
I guess an argument against God creating the universe becuase you can't prove it is not up for discussion any more then.

First you have to prove that the universe was created. And no, your beliefs, feelings, the Bible or beauty of the universe doesn't give you the right to deduce the creation of the universe.

well then prove to me how the universe was created. and i don't just mean the planet and stars... space itself as well. how was it all created?