Thread: Question for athiests...

With that said Photo, then just because you can't prove there is a God doesn't mean it isn't true. Just like you can't prove that there was some other way the universe was created then what was stated in the Bible

If you're going to restate the obvious, this will get very tedious.

No one claimed to be able to disprove God, or Allah, or Zeus, Thor, Isis, whatever. These all might be true, that doesn't mean they are or even that there is a decent chance that it could be true.

As I said, that does not mean that there are not excellent arguments against all these, just because they might be true.

Originally Posted by davej

well then prove to me how the universe was created. and i don't just mean the planet and stars... space itself as well. how was it all created?

The universe doesn't have to be created. It is eternal.

Originally Posted by davej

With that said Photo, then just because you can't prove there is a God doesn't mean it isn't true. Just like you can't prove that there was some other way the universe was created then what was stated in the Bible

Yes but there's no reason in believing any one over another, is there? Having no idea what caused it isn't really a great argument for God.

I'm yet to see any logical proof or piece of empirical evidence which would suggest that it was God and I've seen some good arguments against it.

Ultimately, the point is to bring glory to God. The fact that i do not reach out and talk to one who claims to be an atheist proves that i am selfish. This life is not about us. It's about truly living your life for Him and fufilling the great commission which is this:

Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.
(Matthew 28:18-20)

The point, my good man, is to save u from going to hell. If you don't get that, then I don't know what you've been trying to do. Even if I don't like you, I have to do it, because Jesus shouldn't have died in vain. And if you don't listen, then you will suffer the consequences, it's your choice. But I think its easier to convince someone like an agnostic, who isn't sure what to believe, or another religion, anyone who doesn't have the know-it-all attitude of an atheist.

Jesus forgives any sin of someone with a truly repentant heart. The purpose of trying to "convert" as you put it is to tell people about the saving grace of God. Christians believe that if you die without accepting Jesus as your Lord you will go to hell. If that is what you believed wouldn't you try to tell other's about it too so they can be saved? Don't be so hard on Christian's, their intention is not to promote thier religion, but for your soul to be saved.

Yeah u can say im crazy for believing in God but if im right and heaven and hell DO exist then ill go to heaven and the people who dont believe will go to hell. now doesn't that sound better then finding out after u die and going to hell? i think it does!

And if it turns out that actually it's Allah that exists and not the Christian God, and Allah sends you to hell for blasphemy but forgives everybody else who was passive?

Yeah, then you're in deep shit aren't you?

Please try to use arguments which actually make sense.

Originally Posted by kingerman

Ultimately, the point is to bring glory to God. The fact that i do not reach out and talk to one who claims to be an atheist proves that i am selfish. This life is not about us. It's about truly living your life for Him and fufilling the great commission which is this:

You don't even realize who you actually worship. It is unbelievable what you actually believe in. It's beyond me if you consider yourself moral. You're ready to bend over to an extra-dimensional Hitler and actually make excuses for him. Not only that, you expect me to cry for, feel sorry and worship somebody who got crucified 2000 years ago (which was never proven), while at the same time you believe that billions of people will burn for an eternity. All of which is supposed to be the legacy of a loving god. When you get to heaven, I wish you a good time watching everybody else burn in hell.

Originally Posted by kingerman

Jesus forgives any sin of someone with a truly repentant heart. The purpose of trying to "convert" as you put it is to tell people about the saving grace of God. Christians believe that if you die without accepting Jesus as your Lord you will go to hell. If that is what you believed wouldn't you try to tell other's about it too so they can be saved? Don't be so hard on Christian's, their intention is not to promote thier religion, but for your soul to be saved.


The point, my good man, is to save u from going to hell. If you don't get that, then I don't know what you've been trying to do. Even if I don't like you, I have to do it, because Jesus shouldn't have died in vain. And if you don't listen, then you will suffer the consequences, it's your choice. But I think its easier to convince someone like an agnostic, who isn't sure what to believe, or another religion, anyone who doesn't have the know-it-all attitude of an atheist.

I understand and I could also be grateful that somebody would try to save me from eternal torment if the whole thing wasn't so decadent. If I believed that millions upon millions were going one by one into hell for an eternity, I'd have a mental breakdown. I find your coldness in this situation worrying.

No, belief isn't a choice. I have a brain which dictates my "soul". I am incapable, call it a defect if you want, of believing things like the christian myths. God made it, his decision to burn me. Don't blame it on me, I never asked to be born.

Good luck with converting agnostics, because I'm one of them. Most atheists are agnostics, they acknowledge their ignorance of the universe. For that single reason you'll have a hard time convincing them with unfounded promises of truth. The only ones who have a know-it-all attitude are those who think they know the whole truth, how can you be such a hypocrite? You are the one who claims to know things, not me!

Originally Posted by kingerman

Yeah u can say im crazy for believing in God but if im right and heaven and hell DO exist then ill go to heaven and the people who dont believe will go to hell. now doesn't that sound better then finding out after u die and going to hell? i think it does!

I think crazyness is relative. Religion is obviously a part of nature and an important part of human evolution and not really a mental illnes. I'm just sorry that Buddhism or some other philosophy didn't take the leading role in the world, much suffering would have been averted, not to mention the potential gains in a more rational world.

Besides, your Pascal's wager logic is faulty as Xei pointed out.

Ultimately, the point is to bring glory to God.

Then your god is an egotistical prick. Me 1, one of the many gods humanity has come up with, 0.

Yeah u can say im crazy for believing in God but if im right and heaven and hell DO exist then ill go to heaven and the people who dont believe will go to hell. now doesn't that sound better then finding out after u die and going to hell? i think it does!

And what if you're wrong and you've wasted lots of your only life praying to this fictional god, not enjoying aspects of life out of needless guilt or because things are forbidden. What about the significant financial and emotional costs? What about all the money that is spent on religion? Imagine how much good that could do if used for say, cancer or fusion power research.

And what if you were wrong about your choice of gods? And there are more Gods to be wrong about than you can imagine.

Not forgetting what people like you always fail to notice is that you cannot choose your beliefs. You can only feign belief.

Pascals wager is only taken seriously by morons.

I think its easier to convince someone like an agnostic

What you really mean here is that it's easier to convince stupid people, which is why there's a large negative correlation between intelligence and religiosity. i.e. the more intelligent and knowledgeable, the less likely you are to believe in any form of god, let alone the self-contradictory and arbitrarily chosen judeo-christian one.

Originally Posted by davej

Ahhhh so there is something about the creation of the universe that science can't prove...

YET. Pay attention.

I guess an argument against God creating the universe becuase you can't prove it is not up for discussion any more then.

You are right - it should not be up for discussion, on either side - because there is no evidence for it either way. However, it is up for research.

Originally Posted by davej

well then prove to me how the universe was created. and i don't just mean the planet and stars... space itself as well. how was it all created?

Please do not be another hypocrite that asks for the evidence but then does not actually pay attention to it.

Originally Posted by davej

With that said Photo, then just because you can't prove there is a God doesn't mean it isn't true. Just like you can't prove that there was some other way the universe was created then what was stated in the Bible

You are right - there is still a probability that God created everything. There is also a probability that balloons did.

However, it also depends on the God you speak of. If you speak of the biblical one, then there are a profound amount of reasons otherwise why you ought not to believe in it. There are countless errors and flaws with the biblical God which time will expose.

Originally Posted by Bonsay

The universe doesn't have to be created. It is eternal.

Another vague concept that I highly doubt you can, not only define, but support or justify. I am sure that you reason this statement based on tautological grounds (ie. "You're right O'nus, it cannot be defined, it cannot be justified.. and that's what it is! It is the immutable and ethereal" etc. etc.). This is all nice spiritual sounding but also delusional nonsense that does not prove a thing past the same grounds of imaginary concepts or hallucinations.

Originally Posted by kingerman

Ultimately, the point is to bring glory to God. The fact that i do not reach out and talk to one who claims to be an atheist proves that i am selfish. This life is not about us. It's about truly living your life for Him and fufilling the great commission which is this:

Again you justify your beliefs on a bible that proves itself wrong. We have already been over this and yet you still to continue to not think for yourself. Willingly.

Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.
(Matthew 28:18-20)

Matthew 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.:

+ What's this..? Apparently Mary was not a virgin..?

Matthew 2:16 Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men.

+ This is made-up. There is no historical evidence for this.

There are far too many problems with every book you are quoting. I would go on and prove this, but you are ignoring my points.

Not a surprise coming from someone who admits that they do not think.

The point, my good man, is to save u from going to hell. If you don't get that, then I don't know what you've been trying to do. Even if I don't like you, I have to do it, because Jesus shouldn't have died in vain. And if you don't listen, then you will suffer the consequences, it's your choice. But I think its easier to convince someone like an agnostic, who isn't sure what to believe, or another religion, anyone who doesn't have the know-it-all attitude of an atheist.

Will you consider this objection to your fragile and contradictory argument?

Jesus forgives any sin of someone with a truly repentant heart. The purpose of trying to "convert" as you put it is to tell people about the saving grace of God. Christians believe that if you die without accepting Jesus as your Lord you will go to hell. If that is what you believed wouldn't you try to tell other's about it too so they can be saved? Don't be so hard on Christian's, their intention is not to promote thier religion, but for your soul to be saved.

You could replace Jesus with Muhammed, Ti, Mithras, Yahweh, etc. So tell us why we ought to buy into yours as opposed to the others.

Yeah u can say im crazy for believing in God but if im right and heaven and hell DO exist then ill go to heaven and the people who dont believe will go to hell. now doesn't that sound better then finding out after u die and going to hell? i think it does!

What about the Heavens Gate? Your only chance was to join them in the rise to Ti to be accepted into Heaven. Or you'll go to hell.

What about the Muslims? Your only chance was to join them in the rise to Muhammed to be accepted into Heaven. Or you'll go to hell.

What about the Mormons? Your only chance was to join them in the rise to Eloheim to be accepted into Heaven. Or you'll go to hell.

What about the Scientology? Your only chance was to join them in the rise to Engram depletion be accepted into Heaven. Or you'll go to hell.

What's the difference between you and the rest?

Or will your lacking ability to think ignore the question again. I feel like I am being rude saying that.. but you are the one that admitted it.

~

Originally Posted by O'nus

Another vague concept that I highly doubt you can, not only define, but support or justify. I am sure that you reason this statement based on tautological grounds (ie. "You're right O'nus, it cannot be defined, it cannot be justified.. and that's what it is! It is the immutable and ethereal" etc. etc.). This is all nice spiritual sounding but also delusional nonsense that does not prove a thing past the same grounds of imaginary concepts or hallucinations.

I was just trying to say that we don't know whether the universe was created the way one might imagine a god creating a new universe. It didn't convey my thoughts on the subject other than the fact that we can't know what the religious claim to know.

Originally Posted by Bonsay

I was just trying to say that we don't know whether the universe was created the way one might imagine a god creating a new universe.

Ahh ok.

It didn't convey my thoughts on the subject other than the fact that we can't know what the religious claim to know.

Oh ok.

Also, not too forget that the religious cannot claim to know either.

~

Originally Posted by kingerman

Ultimately, the point is to bring glory to God.

That's what God ultimately wants, huh?


Diagnostic criteria for Narcissistic Personality Disorder

A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

(1) has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
(2) is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
(3) believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
(4) requires excessive admiration
(5) has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
(6) is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
(7) lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
(8) is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her
(9) shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

Reprinted with permission from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, fourth Edition. Copyright 1994 American Psychiatric Association

http://www.behavenet.com/capsules/di...issisticpd.htm

There is only one God and if you wish to KNOW the truth submit yourself to God and accept the atonement God provides for your sin and be made new and joined to God through the righteousness and atonement and resurrection of Jesus Christ..you will receive the Holy Spirit and be guided in Gods truth that is greater than flesh and blood.
There is only one way and that is through Jesus Christ.

Deuteronomy 29:4
But to this day the LORD has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear.
Isaiah 43:8
Lead out those who have eyes but are blind, who have ears but are deaf.

Originally Posted by kingerman

There is only one God and if you wish to KNOW the truth submit yourself to God...

You are not answering the question.

We are asking you how you know.

Please acknowledge what we are all asking you.

...and accept the atonement God provides for your sin..

There was no atonement. It is flawed. The above video demonstrates why.

...and be made new and joined to God through the righteousness and atonement and resurrection of Jesus Christ..you will receive the Holy Spirit and be guided in Gods truth that is greater than flesh and blood.
There is only one way and that is through Jesus Christ.

You are not explaining why your way is more right than the others.

Distinguish yourself. Explain how your God is more right than the others.

Think for yourself.

Deuteronomy 29:4
But to this day the LORD has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear.

I love that you just quoted the old testament to justify your beliefs. Are you seriously ignorant to the rest of this book?

Are you aware that this book that you just quoted also supports raping women, murdering children, maiming non-believers, lands of giants, that God is a jealous God, that you ought to kill those that believe other things, and genocide?

If you are to quote this one passage, are you prepared to accept the rest of it?

If so, then you ought to be killing us - not discussing with us.

Isaiah 43:8
Lead out those who have eyes but are blind, who have ears but are deaf.

Again, this passage is directed more to you; the one who has admitted to not thinking for himself, justifying their statements with contradictions, and following someone who's own writings proves itself wrong.

Your own book you quoted here, Isaiah, states that you ought to kill us with a sword. Also, let us not forget that Isaiah also states that you ought to deprive women so that they are more desperate for sex.

Why are you not doing these things as well?

Do you want my direct quotations? I am sure you want to desperately interpret them another way, but you have not done so with the previous ones.

In addition, it is proof that the bible, in all it's complete volume, was not written till over a hundred years after Jesus. It was also edited by over 1000 people, twice. It is still edited. It is wrong on nearly every attempted scientific fact (eg. flat earth, weather, adam and eve, etc.).

And yet you want to speak of truth.

Look in a mirror.

~

When i say blind and deaf it means spiritually blind and deaf

Originally Posted by kingerman

When i say blind and deaf it means spiritually blind and deaf

...

uhm, are you then admitting to the rest of what I said..?

~

Originally Posted by O'nus

...

uhm, are you then admitting to the rest of what I said..?

~

I think the post you quoted is the key, for him at least. No matter how many proofs you show, there is always faith. By telling us we are spiritually blind and by not responding to any of our questions which directly "disprove" his beliefs, he's basically saying that we will never understand the truth if we try to disprove or rationalize it, we just have to accept it as it is. And that's the key to most such beliefs. Blind faith, Delusion. It gets to a point where everything in the Bible becomes undisputable reality. As you can see, anything we dispute falls on deaf ears, that's what I call denial. All he can do then is bring up vague concepts, as if saying random words like "spiritual" and "holy" mean anything concrete.

Originally Posted by Bonsay

I think the post you quoted is the key, for him at least. No matter how many proofs you show, there is always faith. By telling us we are spiritually blind and by not responding to any of our questions which directly "disprove" his beliefs, he's basically saying that we will never understand the truth if we try to disprove or rationalize it, we just have to accept it as it is. And that's the key to most such beliefs. Blind faith, Delusion. It gets to a point where everything in the Bible becomes undisputable reality. As you can see, anything we dispute falls on deaf ears, that's what I call denial. All he can do then is bring up vague concepts, as if saying random words like "spiritual" and "holy" mean anything concrete.

The existence of God cannot be proved or disproved. The Bible says that we must accept by faith the fact that God exists: “And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him” (Hebrews 11:6). If God so desired, He could simply appear and prove to the whole world that He exists. But if He did that, there would be no need for faith. “Then Jesus told him, ‘Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed’” (John 20:29).

That does not mean, however, that there is no evidence of God’s existence. The Bible states, “The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of His hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge. There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard. Their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world” (Psalm 19:1-4). Looking at the stars, understanding the vastness of the universe, observing the wonders of nature, seeing the beauty of a sunset—all of these things point to a Creator God. If these were not enough, there is also evidence of God in our own hearts. Ecclesiastes 3:11 tells us, “…He has also set eternity in the hearts of men.” Deep within us is the recognition that there is something beyond this life and someone beyond this world. We can deny this knowledge intellectually, but God’s presence in us and all around us is still obvious. Despite this, the Bible warns that some will still deny God’s existence: “The fool says in his heart, ‘There is no God’” (Psalm 14:1). Since the vast majority of people throughout history, in all cultures, in all civilizations, and on all continents believe in the existence of some kind of God, there must be something (or someone) causing this belief.

In addition to the biblical arguments for God’s existence, there are logical arguments. First, there is the ontological argument. The most popular form of the ontological argument uses the concept of God to prove God’s existence. It begins with the definition of God as “a being than which no greater can be conceived.” It is then argued that to exist is greater than to not exist, and therefore the greatest conceivable being must exist. If God did not exist, then God would not be the greatest conceivable being, and that would contradict the very definition of God.

A second argument is the teleological argument. The teleological argument states that since the universe displays such an amazing design, there must have been a divine Designer. For example, if the Earth were significantly closer or farther away from the sun, it would not be capable of supporting much of the life it currently does. If the elements in our atmosphere were even a few percentage points different, nearly every living thing on earth would die. The odds of a single protein molecule forming by chance is 1 in 10243 (that is a 10 followed by 243 zeros). A single cell is comprised of millions of protein molecules.

A third logical argument for God’s existence is called the cosmological argument. Every effect must have a cause. This universe and everything in it is an effect. There must be something that caused everything to come into existence. Ultimately, there must be something “un-caused” in order to cause everything else to come into existence. That “un-caused” cause is God.

A fourth argument is known as the moral argument. Every culture throughout history has had some form of law. Everyone has a sense of right and wrong. Murder, lying, stealing, and immorality are almost universally rejected. Where did this sense of right and wrong come from if not from a holy God?

Despite all of this, the Bible tells us that people will reject the clear and undeniable knowledge of God and believe a lie instead. Romans 1:25 declares, “They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.” The Bible also proclaims that people are without excuse for not believing in God: “For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—His eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse” (Romans 1:20).

People claim to reject God’s existence because it is “not scientific” or “because there is no proof.” The true reason is that once they admit that there is a God, they also must realize that they are responsible to God and in need of forgiveness from Him (Romans 3:23, 6:23). If God exists, then we are accountable to Him for our actions. If God does not exist, then we can do whatever we want without having to worry about God judging us. That is why many of those who deny the existence of God cling strongly to the theory of naturalistic evolution—it gives them an alternative to believing in a Creator God. God exists and ultimately everyone knows that He exists. The very fact that some attempt so aggressively to disprove His existence is in fact an argument for His existence.

How do we know God exists? As Christians, we know God exists because we speak to Him every day. We do not audibly hear Him speaking to us, but we sense His presence, we feel His leading, we know His love, we desire His grace. Things have occurred in our lives that have no possible explanation other than God. God has so miraculously saved us and changed our lives that we cannot help but acknowledge and praise His existence. None of these arguments can persuade anyone who refuses to acknowledge what is already obvious. In the end, God’s existence must be accepted by faith (Hebrews 11:6). Faith in God is not a blind leap into the dark; it is safe step into a well-lit room where the vast majority of people are already standing.

I used to be a Christian. I also used to be an athiest. I am no longer bothered by Christians trying to convert me.

I appreciate some of the teachings it gave me such as faith and love. Too many spiritual things have happened to me to deny the existence of a the spirit world.

Jesus is simply the Solar Savior of the Age of Pisces. Jesus is the Sun. The Sun gives us life. Two fish... be fishers of men.

When we move into the Age of Aquarius, there is going to be another Solar Savior surrounded by the twelve signs of the Zodiac.

Originally Posted by Bonsay

I think the post you quoted is the key, for him at least. No matter how many proofs you show, there is always faith. By telling us we are spiritually blind and by not responding to any of our questions which directly "disprove" his beliefs, he's basically saying that we will never understand the truth if we try to disprove or rationalize it, we just have to accept it as it is. And that's the key to most such beliefs. Blind faith, Delusion. It gets to a point where everything in the Bible becomes undisputable reality. As you can see, anything we dispute falls on deaf ears, that's what I call denial. All he can do then is bring up vague concepts, as if saying random words like "spiritual" and "holy" mean anything concrete.

Great post, a reply like this should easily end the thread but of course, people will always argue that their beliefs are right.

Originally Posted by WakingNomad

I used to be a Christian. I also used to be an athiest. I am no longer bothered by Christians trying to convert me.

I appreciate some of the teachings it gave me such as faith and love. Too many spiritual things have happened to me to deny the existence of a the spirit world.

Jesus is simply the Solar Savior of the Age of Pisces. Jesus is the Sun. The Sun gives us life. Two fish... be fishers of men.

When we move into the Age of Aquarius, there is going to be another Solar Savior surrounded by the twelve signs of the Zodiac.

I sometimes wonder whether all this astrological mystical spiritual BS is just a giant hoax that everyone on the planet is in on except me. It's so ridiculous for people to think this way.

Originally Posted by kingerman

The existence of God cannot be proved or disproved. The Bible says that we must accept by faith the fact that God exists: “And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him” (Hebrews 11:6). If God so desired, He could simply appear and prove to the whole world that He exists. But if He did that, there would be no need for faith. “Then Jesus told him, ‘Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed’” (John 20:29).

I am glad to see that you are fair enough to state that it is a matter of faith.

However, you are using the bible to prove to yourself that the bible is true. How are you so confident to believe in something in such a way?

Why do you not believe the other Gods that exist in the same manner..?

That does not mean, however, that there is no evidence of God’s existence. The Bible states, “The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of His hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge. There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard. Their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world” (Psalm 19:1-4). Looking at the stars, understanding the vastness of the universe, observing the wonders of nature, seeing the beauty of a sunset—all of these things point to a Creator God. If these were not enough, there is also evidence of God in our own hearts. Ecclesiastes 3:11 tells us, “…He has also set eternity in the hearts of men.” Deep within us is the recognition that there is something beyond this life and someone beyond this world. We can deny this knowledge intellectually, but God’s presence in us and all around us is still obvious. Despite this, the Bible warns that some will still deny God’s existence: “The fool says in his heart, ‘There is no God’” (Psalm 14:1).

You quote the bible a lot.. have you considered the quotes I have given you? There are far too many problems with the bible, as I have shown, and way too many editing and manipulation of it.

The bible is not the word of God, but the word of greedy men. If you are interested in reading why this is the case, I will elaborate it for you.. I am simply doubtful that you will consider it.

Since the vast majority of people throughout history, in all cultures, in all civilizations, and on all continents believe in the existence of some kind of God, there must be something (or someone) causing this belief.

Have you considered that there is nothing else to believe if you do not have the tools to consider otherwise?

What are the alternative beliefs?

If you are born into a world and see a ball of fire in the sky.. what else are you going to think it is? Of course you think it is a God, what else would our ancestors have thought it was? Can you blame them? I am a confident Atheist and I have no blame on them whatsoever. Even Richard Dawkins would say that he would have come to the conclusion of a God as well - what else could you have come to?

The better question is; to what extent of knowledge does man require to understand that God is not involved in our lives?

Notice the trends of God being removed from our academics from the heliocentric system to evolution.

And yet you support a religion that condones raping, child-murdering, genocide, sexism, bigotry, and murder. I say this because you are quoting the bible which does support these things - which I have already quoted for you.

In addition to the biblical arguments for God’s existence, there are logical arguments. First, there is the ontological argument. The most popular form of the ontological argument uses the concept of God to prove God’s existence. It begins with the definition of God as “a being than which no greater can be conceived.” It is then argued that to exist is greater than to not exist, and therefore the greatest conceivable being must exist. If God did not exist, then God would not be the greatest conceivable being, and that would contradict the very definition of God.

This is St. Anselm's argument and you will notice a great flaw in it;

You can also imagine a great island that is so great that it cannot be imagined. However, this does not necessitate its existence; the island will still not exist.

You can replace "God" in this statement with anything - it does not necessitate it's existence.

A second argument is the teleological argument. The teleological argument states that since the universe displays such an amazing design, there must have been a divine Designer. For example, if the Earth were significantly closer or farther away from the sun, it would not be capable of supporting much of the life it currently does. If the elements in our atmosphere were even a few percentage points different, nearly every living thing on earth would die. The odds of a single protein molecule forming by chance is 1 in 10243 (that is a 10 followed by 243 zeros). A single cell is comprised of millions of protein molecules.

Now you are speaking of evolution.

You point out the odds of our existence.. they are so miraculous! Think of all the variables that had to take place in order for us to exist! Now there two solutions that you could consider;

- A God planned it
- Evolution

Which is more difficult to imagine? That an intelligent agent simply planned it all or that it all miraculously occurred on its own.

If it is so difficult for you to imagine how it is that the universe created without an intelligent being.. then you are fringing on why I feel so lucky to be alive.

A third logical argument for God’s existence is called the cosmological argument. Every effect must have a cause. This universe and everything in it is an effect. There must be something that caused everything to come into existence. Ultimately, there must be something “un-caused” in order to cause everything else to come into existence. That “un-caused” cause is God.

This is, I think, the third time I have posted this video in this thread alone:



What you have said is under studies.

Furthermore, you can replace "God" with anything. How about the Flying Spaghetti Monster that created everything. Or cotton.

You cannot disprove me on that statement.. does that mean I am right? Of course not.

A fourth argument is known as the moral argument. Every culture throughout history has had some form of law. Everyone has a sense of right and wrong. Murder, lying, stealing, and immorality are almost universally rejected. Where did this sense of right and wrong come from if not from a holy God?

Evolutionary psychology clearly demonstrate that mans altruistic characteristics are passed on because of how much it ensures your existence and survival. You are better off being nice to others so that they are nicer to you so that you can survive.

Humans survive better in civilizations.

This is why we have language - so we can communicate with each other, learn from each other, support each other, and act as communities.

The evolution of man is grand and the technological advances are amazing.

And yet you just what to say that God had it all planned out.

Maybe it would be better if we all just sat around and prayed 24/7? There are many religions that do this very thing.. do you think you ought to?

Despite all of this, the Bible tells us that people will reject the clear and undeniable knowledge of God and believe a lie instead. Romans 1:25 declares, “They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.” The Bible also proclaims that people are without excuse for not believing in God: “For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—His eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse” (Romans 1:20).

Same is said about Yahweh, Muhammed, Ti, Xenu, Charles Manson...

People claim to reject God’s existence because it is “not scientific” or “because there is no proof.” The true reason is that once they admit that there is a God, they also must realize that they are responsible to God and in need of forgiveness from Him (Romans 3:23, 6:23). If God exists, then we are accountable to Him for our actions. If God does not exist, then we can do whatever we want without having to worry about God judging us. That is why many of those who deny the existence of God cling strongly to the theory of naturalistic evolution—it gives them an alternative to believing in a Creator God. God exists and ultimately everyone knows that He exists. The very fact that some attempt so aggressively to disprove His existence is in fact an argument for His existence.

This is ridiculous.

You are saying the only reason you are a good person is because a jealous God is telling you to?

Why are you ignoring the many things that religions have been profoundly wrong about? All I must do is mention Galileo and you ought to feel a twinge of guilt about the remarks you just made.

This paragraph really irritates me because it is this mentality that prevents the evolution of mankind.

You, sir, are the dissent of man.

The worst part is that you are blatantly ignoring everything.

How do we know God exists? As Christians, we know God exists because we speak to Him every day. We do not audibly hear Him speaking to us, but we sense His presence, we feel His leading, we know His love, we desire His grace.

Same is said about Yahweh, Muhammed, Ti, Xenu, Charles Manson...

Things have occurred in our lives that have no possible explanation other than God.

Then you actually do not believe in miracles.

Consider this;

X event happens. It's event seems miraculous. Either;
+ God planned it - thus nullifying it's miraculousness because it was planned anyway
+ Probabilistically it is a miracle as it lies outside the norm. Thus, it becomes a very lucky and miraculous event that took place as the odds were outstanding (eg. our existence).

God has so miraculously saved us and changed our lives that we cannot help but acknowledge and praise His existence. None of these arguments can persuade anyone who refuses to acknowledge what is already obvious.

Same is said about Yahweh, Muhammed, Ti, Xenu, Charles Manson...

In the end, God’s existence must be accepted by faith (Hebrews 11:6). Faith in God is not a blind leap into the dark; it is safe step into a well-lit room where the vast majority of people are already standing.

You consider yourself enlightened and saved and amongst others who are saved and enlightened...

..but how are you confident that you are right? You say that your emotions tell you this.. but how do you know that they are right?

We are mistaken by our emotions all the time..

Again, in the words of Friederich Nietzsche;

"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."

Originally Posted by WakingNomad

When we move into the Age of Aquarius, there is going to be another Solar Savior surrounded by the twelve signs of the Zodiac.

It already is the age of Aquarius...

..and academia would consider that pseudo-science.

..unless you try to ascribe the age of Aquarius to pseudo-science.

..then I say you are reaching for straws.

Originally Posted by pounce

I sometimes wonder whether all this astrological mystical spiritual BS is just a giant hoax that everyone on the planet is in on except me. It's so ridiculous for people to think this way.

Do you think that if a lawyer said, in court, "This man is astrologically likely to murder" that it would better his case..?

~

Originally Posted by kingerman

In addition to the biblical arguments for God’s existence, there are logical arguments. First, there is the ontological argument. The most popular form of the ontological argument uses the concept of God to prove God’s existence. It begins with the definition of God as “a being than which no greater can be conceived.” It is then argued that to exist is greater than to not exist, and therefore the greatest conceivable being must exist. If God did not exist, then God would not be the greatest conceivable being, and that would contradict the very definition of God.

That is only an argument for what a legitimate concept of the reality of God would involve. It proves nothing about any actual reality of God. The ultimate penis would be infinitely long. Does that mean there is somebody with an infinitely long penis?

Originally Posted by kingerman

A second argument is the teleological argument. The teleological argument states that since the universe displays such an amazing design, there must have been a divine Designer. For example, if the Earth were significantly closer or farther away from the sun, it would not be capable of supporting much of the life it currently does. If the elements in our atmosphere were even a few percentage points different, nearly every living thing on earth would die. The odds of a single protein molecule forming by chance is 1 in 10243 (that is a 10 followed by 243 zeros). A single cell is comprised of millions of protein molecules.

With billions of stars in each of billions of galaxies, there will be planets with such situations. There will also be situations in which life can exist in other forms.

Originally Posted by kingerman

A third logical argument for God’s existence is called the cosmological argument. Every effect must have a cause. This universe and everything in it is an effect. There must be something that caused everything to come into existence. Ultimately, there must be something “un-caused” in order to cause everything else to come into existence. That “un-caused” cause is God.

Why would the "un-caused" automatically be God? People have addressed that to you already, and you ignored them. If you are going to post arguments, you should respond to the counters.

Originally Posted by kingerman

A fourth argument is known as the moral argument. Every culture throughout history has had some form of law. Everyone has a sense of right and wrong. Murder, lying, stealing, and immorality are almost universally rejected. Where did this sense of right and wrong come from if not from a holy God?

The capacity for conscience evolved because it helps societies survive better than otherwise. Zebras, bonobos, and chimpanzees demonstrate morals also.

Originally Posted by kingerman

God exists and ultimately everyone knows that He exists. The very fact that some attempt so aggressively to disprove His existence is in fact an argument for His existence.

Is the need to aggressively disprove the validity of socialism an argument for the validity of socialism? Was the need to aggressively disprove that the world is flat an argument for the idea that the world is flat?

Talk to me this time. I don't think arrogantly ignoring people who are talking to you is a Christian virtue. It's pretty rude.

Originally Posted by O'nus

Do you think that if a lawyer said, in court, "This man is astrologically likely to murder" that it would better his case..?

~

No, that would be a good way to troll teh courts though.

Originally Posted by O'nus

Same is said about Yahweh, Muhammed, Ti, Xenu, Charles Manson...~

There is no doubt that the number of different religions in the world makes it a challenge to know which one is correct. First, let’s consider some thoughts on the overall subject and then look at how one might approach the topic in a manner that can actually get to a right conclusion about God. The challenge of different answers to a particular issue is not unique to the topic of religion. For example, you can sit 100 math students down, give them a complex problem to solve, and it is likely that many will get the answer wrong. But does this mean that a correct answer does not exist? Not at all. Those who get the answer wrong simply need to be shown their error and know the techniques necessary to arrive at the correct answer.

How do we arrive at the truth about God? We use a systematic methodology that is designed to separate truth from error by using various tests for truth, with the end result being a set of right conclusions. Can you imagine the end results a scientist would arrive at if he went into the lab and just started mixing things together with no rhyme or reason? Or if a physician just started treating a patient with random medicines in the hope of making him well? Neither the scientist nor the physician takes this approach; instead, they use systematic methods that are methodical, logical, evidential, and proven to yield the right end result.

This being the case, why think theology—the study of God—should be any different? Why believe it can be approached in a haphazard and undisciplined way and still yield right conclusions? Unfortunately, this is the approach many take, and this is one of the reasons why so many religions exist. That said, we now return to the question of how to reach truthful conclusions about God. What systematic approach should be used? First, we need to establish a framework for testing various truth claims, and then we need a roadmap to follow to reach a right conclusion. Here is a good framework to use:

1. Logical consistency—the claims of a belief system must logically cohere to each other and not contradict in any way. As an example, the end goal of Buddhism is to rid oneself of all desires. Yet, one must have a desire to rid oneself of all desires, which is a contradictory and illogical principle.

2. Empirical adequacy—is there evidence to support the belief system (whether the evidence is rational, externally evidential, etc.)? Naturally, it is only right to want proof for important claims being made so the assertions can be verified. For example, Mormons teach that Jesus lived in North America. Yet there is absolutely no proof, archaeological or otherwise, to support such a claim.

3. Existential relevancy—the belief system must conform to reality as we know it, and it must make a meaningful difference in the life of the adherent. Deism, for example, claims that God just threw the spinning world into the universe and does not interact with those who live on it. How does such a belief impact someone in a day-to-day manner? In short, it does not.

The above framework, when applied to the topic of religion, will help lead one to a right view of God and will answer the four big questions of life:

1. Origin – where did we come from?
2. Ethics – how should we live?
3. Meaning – what is the purpose for life?
4. Destiny – where is mankind heading?

But how does one go about applying this framework in the pursuit of God? A step-by-step question/answer approach is one of the best tactics to employ. Narrowing the list of possible questions down produces the following:

1. Does absolute truth exist?
2. Do reason and religion mix?
3. Does God exist?
4. Can God be known?
5. Is Jesus God?
6. Does God care about me?

First we need to know if absolute truth exists. If it does not, then we really cannot be sure of anything (spiritual or not), and we end up either an agnostic, unsure if we can really know anything, or a pluralist, accepting every position because we are not sure which, if any, is right.

Absolute truth is defined as that which matches reality, that which corresponds to its object, telling it like it is. Some say there is no such thing as absolute truth, but taking such a position becomes self-defeating. For example, the relativist says, “All truth is relative,” yet one must ask: is that statement absolutely true? If so, then absolute truth exists; if not, then why consider it? Postmodernism affirms no truth, yet it affirms at least one absolute truth: postmodernism is true. In the end, absolute truth becomes undeniable.

Further, absolute truth is naturally narrow and excludes its opposite. Two plus two equals four, with no other answer being possible. This point becomes critical as different belief systems and worldviews are compared. If one belief system has components that are proven true, then any competing belief system with contrary claims must be false. Also, we must keep in mind that absolute truth is not impacted by sincerity and desire. No matter how sincerely someone embraces a lie, it is still a lie. And no desire in the world can make something true that is false.

The answer of question one is that absolute truth exists. This being the case, agnosticism, postmodernism, relativism, and skepticism are all false positions.

This leads us to the next question of whether reason/logic can be used in matters of religion. Some say this is not possible, but—why not? The truth is, logic is vital when examining spiritual claims because it helps us understand why some claims should be excluded and others embraced. Logic is absolutely critical in dismantling pluralism (which says that all truth claims, even those that oppose each other, are equal and valid).

For example, Islam and Judaism claim that Jesus is not God, whereas Christianity claims He is. One of the core laws of logic is the law of non-contradiction, which says something cannot be both “A” and “non-A” at the same time and in the same sense. Applying this law to the claims Judaism, Islam, and Christianity means that one is right and the other two are wrong. Jesus cannot be both God and not God. Used properly, logic is a potent weapon against pluralism because it clearly demonstrates that contrary truth claims cannot both be true. This understanding topples the whole “true for you but not for me” mindset.

Logic also dispels the whole “all roads lead to the top of the mountain” analogy that pluralists use. Logic shows that each belief system has its own set of signs that point to radically different locations in the end. Logic shows that the proper illustration of a search for spiritual truth is more like a maze—one path makes it through to truth, while all others arrive at dead ends. All faiths may have some surface similarities, but they differ in major ways in their core doctrines.

The conclusion is that you can use reason and logic in matters of religion. That being the case, pluralism (the belief that all truth claims are equally true and valid) is ruled out because it is illogical and contradictory to believe that diametrically opposing truth claims can both be right.

Next comes the big question: does God exist? Atheists and naturalists (who do not accept anything beyond this physical world and universe) say “no.” While volumes have been written and debates have raged throughout history on this question, it is actually not difficult to answer. To give it proper attention, you must first ask this question: Why do we have something rather than nothing at all? In other words, how did you and everything around you get here? The argument for God can be presented very simply:

Something exists.
You do not get something from nothing.
Therefore, a necessary and eternal Being exists.

You cannot deny you exist because you have to exist in order to deny your own existence (which is self-defeating), so the first premise above is true. No one believes you can get something from nothing (i.e., that ”nothing” produced the universe), so the second premise is true. Therefore, the third premise must be true—an eternal Being responsible for everything must exist.

This is a position no thinking atheist denies; they just claim that the universe is that eternal being. However, the problem with that stance is that all scientific evidence points to the fact that the universe had a beginning (the ‘big bang’). And everything that has a beginning must have a cause; therefore, the universe had a cause and is not eternal. Because the only two sources of eternality are an eternal universe (proven to be untrue) or an eternal Creator, the only logical conclusion is that God exists. Answering the question of God’s existence in the affirmative rules out atheism as a valid belief system.

Now, this conclusion says nothing about what kind of God exists, but amazingly enough, it does do one sweeping thing—it rules out all pantheistic religions. All pantheistic worldviews say that the universe is God and is eternal. And this assertion is false. So, Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, and all other pantheistic religions are ruled out as valid belief systems.

Further, we learn some interesting things about this God who created the universe. He is:

• Supernatural in nature (as He exists outside of His creation)
• Incredibly powerful (to have created all that is known)
• Eternal (self-existent, as He exists outside of time and space)
• Omnipresent (He created space and is not limited by it)
• Timeless and changeless (He created time)
• Immaterial (because He transcends space)
• Personal (the impersonal can’t create personality)
• Necessary (as everything else depends on Him)
• Infinite and singular (as you cannot have two infinites)
• Diverse yet has unity (as nature exhibits diversity)
• Intelligent (supremely, to create everything)
• Purposeful (as He deliberately created everything)
• Moral (no moral law can exist without a lawgiver)
• Caring (or no moral laws would have been given)

This Being exhibits characteristics very similar to the God of Judaism, Islam, and Christianity, which interestingly enough, are the only core faiths left standing after atheism and pantheism have been eliminated. Note also that one of the big questions in life (origins) is now answered: we know where we came from.

This leads to the next question: can we know God? At this point, the need for religion is replaced by something more important—the need for revelation. If mankind is to know this God well, it is up to God to reveal Himself to His creation. Judaism, Islam, and Christianity all claim to have a book that is God’s revelation to man, but the question is which (if any) is actually true? Pushing aside minor differences, the two core areas of dispute are 1) the New Testament of the Bible 2) the person of Jesus Christ. Islam and Judaism both claim the New Testament of the Bible is untrue in what it claims, and both deny that Jesus is God incarnate, while Christianity affirms both to be true.

There is no faith on the planet that can match the mountains of evidence that exist for Christianity. From the voluminous number of ancient manuscripts, to the very early dating of the documents written during the lifetime of the eyewitnesses (some only 15 years after Christ’s death), to the multiplicity of the accounts (nine authors in 27 books of the New Testament), to the archaeological evidence—none of which has ever contradicted a single claim the New Testament makes—to the fact that the apostles went to their deaths claiming they had seen Jesus in action and that He had come back from the dead, Christianity sets the bar in terms of providing the proof to back up its claims. The New Testament’s historical authenticity—that it conveys a truthful account of the actual events as they occurred—is the only right conclusion to reach once all the evidence has been examined.

When it comes to Jesus, one finds a very curious thing about Him—He claimed to be God in the flesh. Jesus own words (e.g., “Before Abraham was born I AM”), His actions (e.g., forgiving sins, accepting worship), His sinless and miraculous life (which He used to prove His truth claims over opposing claims), and His resurrection all support His claims to be God. The New Testament writers affirm this fact over and over again in their writings.

Now, if Jesus is God, then what He says must be true. And if Jesus said that the Bible is inerrant and true in everything it says (which He did), this must mean that the Bible is true in what it proclaims. As we have already learned, two competing truth claims cannot both be right. So anything in the Islamic Koran or writings of Judaism that contradict the Bible cannot be true. In fact, both Islam and Judaism fail since they both say that Jesus is not God incarnate, while the evidence says otherwise. And because we can indeed know God (because He has revealed Himself in His written Word and in Christ), all forms of agnosticism are refuted. Lastly, another big question of life is answered—that of ethics—as the Bible contains clear instructions on how mankind ought to live.

This same Bible proclaims that God cares deeply for mankind and wishes all to know Him intimately. In fact, He cares so much that He became a man to show His creation exactly what He is like. There are many men who have sought to be God, but only one God who sought to be man so He could save those He deeply loves from an eternity separated from Him. This fact demonstrates the existential relevancy of Christianity and also answers that last two big questions of life—meaning and destiny. Each person has been designed by God for a purpose, and each has a destiny that awaits him—one of eternal life with God or eternal separation from Him. This deduction (and the point of God’s becoming a man in Christ) also refutes Deism, which says God is not interested in the affairs of mankind.

In the end, we see that ultimate truth about God can be found and the worldview maze successfully navigated by testing various truth claims and systematically pushing aside falsehoods so that only the truth remains. Using the tests of logical consistency, empirical adequacy, and existential relevancy, coupled with asking the right questions, yields truthful and reasonable conclusions about religion and God. Everyone should agree that the only reason to believe something is that it is true—nothing more. Sadly, true belief is a matter of the will, and no matter how much logical evidence is presented, some will still choose to deny the God who is there and miss the one true path to harmony with Him.