Thread: Psionics v. Witch Craft

But we've just discredited the idea that it was evidence..?

You get convection currents wherever there is a temperature gradient, and you get temperature gradients pretty much everywhere, including closed environments. Such as... your room.

If you can't remember any other evidence then surely you see that all we can do is conclude that psi isn't real..?

Originally Posted by Xedan

I really doubt that every place at most times has enough convection going on to spin a covered wheel.

And that's not the only source of evidence, but I don't exactly recall where I've found videos and such before.

Yes, the "I have evidence, I just can't find it. BUT I HAVE IT!" argument does hold a lot of weight in the scientific community.

Originally Posted by Xei

There's no evidence for either.

This is rather conspicuous considering that psi abilities should be very easy to prove in experimental conditions, and that there is a huge incentive for doing so.

+1

Originally Posted by Xedan

You fail in terminology. There is evidence of both. You meant to say 'proof'. And due to the incentive, the test are made to be impassible.

Originally Posted by Xei

Fraid not, I'm using the terminology of scientific method and rationality.

We never talk about 'proof' in science, only evidence for or against a hypothesis.

If there is any evidence for something, you have a reason for believing it to be true.

There is however no evidence for either of those things; that's the current view, anyway. If you can produce some then that is a different matter.

Your last statement does not make any logical sense. Incentives make you want to do something. This includes the scientists doing the tests. That's what the word 'incentive' means.

+1. It is ridiculous to assume something to be true without substantial evidence/proof.

Originally Posted by Xei

Psychokinesis is by its very definition not invisible. It is a tangible thing and in fact very easy to test. Just ask somebody to state their intention with regards to some remote physical action and then see if that action occurs.

Psi wheels move by themselves. All you have to do is set one without a human nearby for a long time and see if it moves. Convection currents are one of the main reasons, why don't you think they are?

If it doesn't move after a long time, then it's safe to see if you can move it and see if you get results. This is clearly a vital part of the testing process, in science known as a 'control'. Yet nobody has ever been able to make a psi wheel move in these necessary conditions. They can only ever do it with wheels which move by themselves, or are not actually isolated.

Unless of course you have some evidence to the contrary.

Originally Posted by Fableflame

If you can use psychokinesis, great!
But if the only evidence you can show me is that you can make a paper thin wheel turn, you need to move on to bigger things.

This.

I'm siding with Xei and Fable, here. Also...(and I really hate to keep posting this..)


What you're attempting to do is explain an unexplained event, when the event is just that; unexplained. This is a contradiction, and at the moment, there is a startling lack of evidence that PSI exists (unless you'd care to cite some sources). I keep an open mind, but until further evidence comes to light, it would be rather silly to assume PSI to be true.

You've discredited the reliability, not the fact that it can show psi.

And when there is reasonable evidence (which I will now try to dig up) of psi, no matter how easily you can try to find out a reason it's fake, I will not say it doesn't exist.

Originally Posted by ExoByte

Yes, the "I have evidence, I just can't find it. BUT I HAVE IT!" argument does hold a lot of weight in the scientific community.

I'm not the only person making the claim, now am I? And I said I'm looking for it.

Originally Posted by Xedan

You've discredited the reliability, not the fact that it can show psi.

And when there is reasonable evidence (which I will now try to dig up) of psi, no matter how easily you can try to find out a reason it's fake, I will not say it doesn't exist.

I find this rather troubling. Along the same logic, I could claim that there is a flying spaghetti monster, and by not demanding evidence, you let further rubbish into your mind.

But to each his own.

Originally Posted by Xedan

You've discredited the reliability, not the fact that it can show psi.

And when there is reasonable evidence (which I will now try to dig up) of psi, no matter how easily you can try to find out a reason it's fake, I will not say it doesn't exist.

You've been shown here how what you believe in is flawed and then again pushed further back to the extent that you're now digging around on the internet scrabbling to find more evidence.

Surely the rational thing to do in a situation like this is to disregard the belief that has been shown to be irrational, rather than clinging to it?


Also, what if that reasonable evidence is totally discredited? Will you still not say it doesn't exist? Am I detecting elements of only wanting evidence to show us, but actually believing it just because you want it to be true?

Because I hope I'm not detecting elements of that.

Originally Posted by Carôusoul

You've been shown here how what you blieve in is flawed and then again pushed further back to the extent that you're now digging around on the internet scrabbling to find more evidence.

Surely the rational thing to do in a situation like this is to disregard the belief that has been shown to be irrational, rather than clinging to it?

You make the assumption he is a rational human being.

Originally Posted by ExoByte

You make the assumption he is a rational human being.

My bad bro.

10letter

Originally Posted by Xedan

I'm not the only person making the claim, now am I? And I said I'm looking for it.

No, I'm not reviewing these sources. I'm in too much of a rush, thanks to five people ganging up on me for more evidence, but hopefully at least some of these give examples:

http://multiverseaccordingtoben.blog...i-is-most.html
(this one is just a log of an experiment I think, not sure how it turned out)http://www.fourmilab.ch/rpkp/chan-evid.html
http://weilerpsiblog.wordpress.com/evidence-for-psi/

Again, I've not checked these yet. I will after posting this. Hopefully at least one of these makes sufficient points.

Originally Posted by Xedan

No, I'm not reviewing these sources. I'm in too much of a rush, thanks to five people ganging up on me for more evidence, but hopefully at least some of these give examples:

Welcome to the scientific community. This is pretty standard, really. Enjoy your stay.

Originally Posted by Xedan

You've discredited the reliability, not the fact that it can show psi.

How could we ever show that you don't have any evidence?

You're yet to provide evidence. So we don't have any reason to believe psi. Just like any other claim anybody makes.

And when there is reasonable evidence (which I will now try to dig up) of psi, no matter how easily you can try to find out a reason it's fake, I will not say it doesn't exist.

Why would we try to discredit any evidence? We don't have an agenda for proving psi is fake; in fact if psi was real that would be extremely interesting and possibly quite comforting. The only thing I'm trying to do is establish the truth; if you provide some evidence then I'll believe that psi is true.

There is no discrediting of evidence. Only the practice of skepticism. Evidence is discredited only if it cannot withstand counter evidence or if an alternate, more accurate or already established and better supported explanation can take its place.

Originally Posted by Mario92

I find this rather troubling. Along the same logic, I could claim that there is a flying spaghetti monster, and by not demanding evidence, you let further rubbish into your mind.

But to each his own.

You didn't bold the part that said "reasonable evidence" I see.

Originally Posted by Carôusoul

You've been shown here how what you believe in is flawed and then again pushed further back to the extent that you're now digging around on the internet scrabbling to find more evidence.

Surely the rational thing to do in a situation like this is to disregard the belief that has been shown to be irrational, rather than clinging to it?


Also, what if that reasonable evidence is totally discredited? Will you still not say it doesn't exist? Am I detecting elements of only wanting evidence to show us, but actually believing it just because you want it to be true?

Because I hope I'm not detecting elements of that.

Yeah, digging through google isn't my first choice. But over years, and I mean YEARS of hearing about it, watching videos (both documentary and practice style), and seeing claims by more than enough sound minded people (by which I don't mean random text on a site, I mean people like reecejones87 and other people who truly share their lives with the internet in an effort to broaden people's perspective) I've come to the conclusion that it sounds logical enough. And I even have seen a reasoned out explanation as to why it happens, not that it is definitely true, just a theory. I'd post it but I'd rather find the original quote.

I really have been jumping all over the place in this post, sorry if I left grammar behind at all.

Originally Posted by Xei

How could we ever show that you don't have any evidence?

You're yet to provide evidence. So we don't have any reason to believe psi. Just like any other claim anybody makes.

You still are saying evidence as if it has to be proof, and as if you've disproved anything. You've said why it is unreliable, but unless you were there you've never actually examined a person working a psi wheel

Why would we try to discredit any evidence? We don't have an agenda for proving psi is fake; in fact if psi was real that would be extremely interesting and possibly quite comforting. The only thing I'm trying to do is establish the truth; if you provide some evidence then I'll believe that psi is true.

When I said that, I meant the following: If you see a video of a person making an object float, you and I both know you would call it fake, because there are so many other possibilities as to how it could have happened. But under these same assumptions no one could EVER make a good case for themselves short of going to a lab study.

10 characters above ^

But under these same assumptions no one could EVER make a good case for themselves short of going to a lab study.

You care to explain that? An idea is generally supported by the scientific community if (and only if) it can be reproduced in a laboratory setting, relatively free of any other variables.

You still are saying evidence as if it has to be proof, and as if you've disproved anything. You've said why it is unreliable, but unless you were there you've never actually examined a person working a psi wheel

How can I disprove anything from behind my laptop? It's the person with the claim who is responsible for proving his beliefs.

Have you never heard of the Flying Spaghetti Monster? There's no proof that he doesn't exist; that doesn't imply that he does.

When I said that, I meant the following: If you see a video of a person making an object float, you and I both know you would call it fake, because there are so many other possibilities as to how it could have happened. But under these same assumptions no one could EVER make a good case for themselves short of going to a lab study.

Well yes. Go to your nearest university.

Xedan, just ignore their posts look over them and give them no credance. You know you can't prove it to them and they can add nothing beneficial to this thread other than stating they don't believe in what you're wnating to discuss. So just disregard them. simple really. I mean you all have excellent points but just because science hasn't found it yet, or can't doens't mean we're going to stand up and say "Until I see evidence i refure to believe in it". We keep and open mind and say maybe. You have your opinions and we have ours.

Oh, wow. Almost forgot I made claims toward ESP. A study was done a long lime ago that put subjects facing away from a random sequence of numbers and letters. At each distance the sequence the subjects read off using ESP was twice as good as guessing, and these are from distances of up to 500 feet.

Above was shown on the history channel, so no bullshit claims about it unless you have a really good reason.

And the government did use psychics in the cold war (or maybe it was WW2, I dunno). One of them was even used to look at an area Americans were about to enter, and a man drew a very accurate drawing of an eight wheeled crane on a track, and six bins of something (don't remember what it was, sorry my memory is so choppy). The only information he was given was longitude and latitude. That was the only information they were EVER given, and lots of results were just as accurate, if not more.

Originally Posted by MementoMori

Xedan, just ignore their posts look over them and give them no credance. You know you can't prove it to them and they can add nothing beneficial to this thread other than stating they don't believe in what you're wnating to discuss. So just disregard them. simple really. I mean you all have excellent points but just because science hasn't found it yet, or can't doens't mean we're going to stand up and say "Until I see evidence i refure to believe in it". We keep and open mind and say maybe. You have your opinions and we have ours.

How many times are you people going to make me do this?



It's actually evidence of a closed mind. Demanding proof does not make you close-minded; quite the contrary. As Xei posted, it's just plain silly to believe something without good, solid evidence to back something up. Sad to say, without evidence, an argument doesn't stand a chance in the scientific community. We are not saying that there is no way in hell that psi is false, but we are saying that until further, concrete evidence and/or proof comes to light, it is ridiculous to assume it to be true.

I mean you all have excellent points but just because science hasn't found it yet, or can't doens't mean we're going to stand up and say "Until I see evidence i refure to believe in it".

That is one of the leading causes of misinformation...believing something without evidence is not a sign of open-mindedness...gullibility, perhaps, but not open-mindedness.

Originally Posted by Mario92

How many times are you people going to make me do this?



It's actually evidence of a closed mind. Demanding proof does not make you close-minded; quite the contrary. As Xei posted, it's just plain silly to believe something without good, solid evidence to back something up. Sad to say, without evidence, an argument doesn't stand a chance in the scientific community. We are not saying that there is no way in hell that psi is false, but we are saying that until further, concrete evidence and/or proof comes to light, it is ridiculous to assume it to be true.



That is one of the leading causes of misinformation...believing something without evidence is not a sign of open-mindedness...gullibility, perhaps, but not open-mindedness.

THAT FUCKING VIDEO


Also, I'm reading your things you posted Xedan. Slowly. :3

Originally Posted by Xei

How can I disprove anything from behind my laptop? It's the person with the claim who is responsible for proving his beliefs.

Have you never heard of the Flying Spaghetti Monster? There's no proof that he doesn't exist; that doesn't imply that he does.

I never made this for a psi discussion thread. I wasn't guarding any beliefs. The first post only invited you to state you didn't believe in it. But when you get into saying there is no evidence, you are treading into (for you) uncharted territory.

And you really just summed up what I've been saying, you've disproved no evidence. Therefor, it's all still on the table. Therefor, there is evidence. Case closed

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure no one's ever said that he exists. There is no evidence whatsoever for him. Seriously guys, come up with an analogy that makes sense for this thread or gtfo.

And on that note, if you don't believe in these at all and ONLY came here for a debate, then GTFO!

Really.

Originally Posted by Xedan

you've disproved no evidence. Therefore, it's all still on the table. Therefore, there is evidence. Case closed.

Hold the fucking train, what?

If you didn't want a debate, you shouldn't have posted in R/S.

Also...http://www.venganza.org/category/evidence/
http://www.internetactivist.org/FSM/essay3.html