Thread: Your stance towards Islam

Most Muslims don't grow poppies.

I hope people generally realize the level of political stigmatization.

The images we associate with Islam or any middle eastern country have
been carefully manufactured. The level of debate in the general public
as to 'why' is reduced to religious fundamentalism and leaves out most
of the political and economical factors. If we would sincerely focus on the
actions of just a few - and keep an open mind about the majority - we
would also have to critically analyze what 'our few' have been doing.



If you substract the 'political struggle over globalization', what you are left
with is an organized religion, not much different from all of the others. And
I think they should be subjected to criticism, just like anyone else. I am not
at all a fan of religious institutions - but it's not fair to single them out.
Talking about extremism itself is as complexe as it can be, but this is just
a different discussion and should be handled as such.

I find the level of socially acceptable criticism towards the Islam as a whole
alarming - but I sincerely hope I am wrong about the general consensus.

Originally Posted by OuroborosEterna

Individuals with malicious intent.

that can't be the real root of the problem. what causes "individuals with malicious intent"?

Originally Posted by nerve

that can't be the real root of the problem. what causes "individuals with malicious intent"?

Selfishness. The degree to which you are willing to harm others for personal gain determines the degree of evil you are capable of. (Self defense is of course a special case). The gain can be material or immaterial (salvation.) Religion doesn't CAUSE bad people. A strong and ethical person would not be persuaded into committing evil regardless of what authority figure is issuing the command.

Of course, this is just my opinion. But it makes a helluva lot of sense to me.

I don't like being called ignorant. Just because I think religion is bad doesn't mean I know nothing about it. On the contrary, I'll bet I know more about the Abrahamic religions that anyone who called me ignorant. I think the biggest problem about religion is that fact that it relies on ignorance. Religion and science are completely at ends with each other, one is facts and reality, the other is myth and stories.

I think The Holy Bible and the Qu'ran should both be taught in schools in a literature class. They are probably the two most important pieces of literature in human history, the problem is that 3.5 billion people don't read them as literature, they read them as though they were history and science text books. This causes problems. Particularly: war.

Fact= left hemisphere of brain
Myth=right hemisphere of brain

Each is half the truth.

Knowledge + Intuition= wisdom

That is the problem with fundamentalism and dogma is that it suppresses both halves of the brain. If one realizes that the stories one is reading are stories that whisper truths to the subconscious and not literal facts, then one will intuitively recognize the truth in the scriptures and recognize what isn't. Then there is no conflict with science.

In fact, the roots of science and math are in the same lands that are Muslim. Astronomy, geometry, algebra, surgery, chemistry, etc. were discovered/invented in the Middle East mostly in Iraq.

The stories in the Bible and the Qu'ran speak truths that cannot be told in any other way but through stories. Some may be historical, but most are myths. Myths are the language of dreams. We may not understand what happened in a dream, because it is symbols. If we take it literally that "last night I lost all my teeth and grew a beard and drove a bus through the ocean," we will remain ignorant. Also, if we just dismiss the dream because it isn't "fact" and don't find the interpretation and what it is trying to tell us we also remain ignorant of ourselves.

So I am against fundamentalism and dogma, but for anyone who dreams the language of Islam, they have my blessings.

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

Most Muslims don't grow poppies.

Here? In the part of Afghanistan I'm in? Absolutely. EVERYONE grows poppy. And good ole mary jane too.

I have no problem with islam; In the Islamic world. In Europe however...

http://www.cnn.com/2010/SHOWBIZ/TV/0...igion/?hpt=Mid

Here's one who is not afraid to speak what he believes.

Originally Posted by candiappl

http://www.cnn.com/2010/SHOWBIZ/TV/0...igion/?hpt=Mid

Here's one who is not afraid to speak what he believes.

That guy truly disgusts me.

Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming

Here? In the part of Afghanistan I'm in? Absolutely. EVERYONE grows poppy. And good ole mary jane too.

Most Muslims don't live in Afghanistan. The poppy trade in Afghanistan really took off after the war started. They were growing before the war, of course, but not nearly in the scale they are growing now. Guess where it is all going?

This is the transcript of the response from www.revolutionmuslim.com
aimed at those who wish to know their stance towards the South Park episodes of recent, and towards any who insult/disrespect/or destroy the name or image of the Prophet Muhhamad=

(warning tis long)

Spoiler for Read please:

Clarifying the South Park Response and Calling on Others to Join in the Defense of the Prophet Muhammad – RevolutionMuslim.com In the name of Allah the Beneficent the Merciful, all praise is due to Allah the Lord of all that exists, and may blessings and peace be upon the Messenger of Allah Muhammad, and I bear witness that there is no deity worthy of worship except for Allah, and I bear witness that Muhammad is His slave and Messenger, As for what follows, In light of the volume of attention being given to our response to the recent South Park episode we feel compelled to issue a statement clarifying the issue to both Muslims and non-Muslims alike. We would like to point out that we are not against a rational dialogue with either group and would like to take this opportunity to ask all to read and respond with an objective mind. We live in an age of media concision, and a consequential reality which tends to afford very little opportunity for in depth discussion. Our intention with this explanation is only, Allah willing, to create the possibility that a deeper and more productive dialogue may be initiated to create an opportunity for correction of wrongs and the alteration of behavior that many may suggest is insignificant, but nevertheless to behavior we hold not only sacrilegious but that we feel typifies the root cancer of the world right now, that of American imperialism and its coincident culture of pagan hedonistic barbarism, a culture which actually makes possible the perpetuation of such a dehumanizing U.S. influence in the world at least for the overwhelming majority of the global village effected by its imperialist advancement. This past week South Park aired an episode which insulted three of our beloved prophets: Musa (Moses), 'Isa (Jesus), and Muhammad, peace be upon them all. Not only did they do this, but within the episode the makers of South Park made it very clear that they knew how the Muslims would feel and potentially respond to their show. In an effort at covering over their actual intention to incite, the creators of South Park carefully contrived a plotline that they believed could only stump those Muslim extremists that may arise to defend the honor of the Prophet Muhammad, held in highest regard by Muslims and Non-Muslims alike, indeed many have categorized Muhammad as the most influential human being that ever walked on Earth. By placing the Prophet Muhammad in a bear suit and thus believing that they could not possibly be accused of portraying his image, the creators of South Park sought to insult the sacred and show their blatant and general disregard for religion while at the same time creatively avoiding the Islamic law as they understood it. Indeed were the American terror state, these individuals are so proud of not occupying several Muslim countries, were it not responsible for the killing of many millions of Muslims in its recent history of foreign policy, the propping up dictators all over the Muslim world so that they can sequester the natural resources of Muslim land, and the unconditional supporting and militarization of the fascist, apartheid state of Israel, there may be some sort of justification for why Muslims could or should simply overlook the ignorance and arrogance of such an act by a handful of individuals. However, as it stands, the aforementioned situations are occurring and increasingly many Muslims the world over realize that the United States in engaged in a comprehensive war against Islam. Whether consciously or subconsciously, the dehumanization of a conquered people’s culture is part and parcel of all conquest, and the South Park episode is an example of how even seemingly unimportant images in a society can and do contribute to a dominant powers aggression and subjugation of all things ‘other.’ To
insult the premiere figure of the people you are conquering in jest is nothing new, but to sit silent whilst unrecognizing the process of domination is contribute to it and so to oppose the depiction of the Prophet Muhammad in any way, shape or form that is derogatory is to protect the honor and dignity of the Muslim nation, and refuse to remain open-minded in matters of imperialist conquest. Free speech is a vital tool in the staving of oppression, but this function has its limits. It is hard to understand how one can feel self-righteous while defending somebody as an "equal opportunity offender." Such an illogical state of mind could only emanate from a selfish culture in which the suffering of the many is justified by the enjoyment of the few. And it may be an American "value" that all speech should be free including that which is obscene and aimed at emotionally oppressing a specific group of people, but this is not a value that the Muslims share with America as a whole. In fact, one of the major reasons there is such little opposition to American domination today is the reality that the principle of free speech envisioned by the founding fathers of the United States and by wise men and women throughout the ages has been more as a universal principle that may protect citizens from political, economic, or religious persecution than in the manner it is understood today, that being the right to promote pornography, homosexuality, slander, and libel against even that which is considered sacred. Indeed, it is in the shifting away from this conceptualization that America first deviated from its position as republic and assumed a role of global empire. While insulting Jesus, Moses, or any other prophet would remove someone from Islam, we are also forbidden to insult the deities which other religions hold in high esteem. Allah says in the Qur'an: ول تسب لذ ن ي ع م د ن ل فيسب ل ع و بغ ر ع م ٍ ْ َ َ َ ُ ّواْ اّ ِي َ َدْ ُونَ ِن ُو ِ ا ّ َ َ ُ ّواْ ا ّ َدْ ًا ِ َيْ ِ ِل Revile not those unto whom they pray beside Allah lest they wrongfully revile Allah through ignorance Therefore, as Muslims we do not define speech which has no place in a moral society and which violates that which is considered sacred by some as "free speech." Furthermore, we will never tolerate the mocking or insulting of any one of the prophets, peace be upon them, from any source even if it was the Caliph (leader) of the entire Muslim world. It is truly sad that we did not speak out when they first insulted 'Isa (Jesus), Musa (Moses), or even the first time they mocked the final prophet Muhammad, peace be upon them all. However, simply because they have done something in the past and there was no outcry does not justify our silence in the present. As for the Islamic ruling on the situation, then this is clear. There is no difference of opinion from those with any degree of a reputation that the punishment is death. For one example, Ibn Taymiyyah the great scholar of Islam says, "Whoever curses the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) -a Muslim or a non Muslim- then he must be killed...and this is the opinion of the general body of Islamic scholars. Likewise Ibn Mundhir, another classical scholar, said, "It is the consensus of our scholars that the one who curses the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) should be executed!" This is also the opinion of Imams Malik, al-Laith, Ahmed, Ishaq, Shafi'i, and Numan Abu Haneefah. This shows that taking this stance is virtually obligatory, but it does not mean that our taking this stance is in some way an absolute call toward the requirement that the creators of South Park must be killed, nor a
deliberate attempt at incitement, it is only to declare the truth regardless of consequence and to offer an awareness in the mind of Westerners when they proceed forward with even more of the same. Many are proclaiming that the South Park episode’s insult was minimal and some might inquire about a situation where the insult is not that great. Imam Malik said, "If someone says that the button of the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) is dirty, then he should be executed!" And then Qadi I'yad says, "And we don't know any different opinion, this is a consensus and we don't know any different opinion!" Before continuing it must be made clear that anyone who knows anything about Usool ul-Fiqh (the fundamentals of jurisprudence) knows that ijma' (consensus) is a hujjah (proof) as the Prophet, salaa Allahu 'alayhi wa salam, said, "My Ummah cannot have consensus on something that is wrong." This means that the above opinions are the accepted opinions and these statements are proof that is the case. While the details of this conversation may have lost our non-Muslim audience in evidences from the religion we implore you to read on and advise you that the system of law in Islam, known as shariah, is the most amazing thing the mind could stumble upon. In the lifetime of the Prophet Muhammad two key events stand out that provide evidence for the permissibility and indeed preference for retaliation against those that insult the Prophet Muhammad. In the first, a blind Muslim man who had a Jewish wife (and some say servant) assassinated his wife once she continuously would curse and criticize Muhammad. In the other, a Jewish poet by the name of Ka’b bin al-Ashraf was killed for his poetry insulting the Prophet even though he was living under peaceful covenant with the Muslims and was within his own territory. If anyone is in need of details and sources for these occurrences feel free to contact us and we will forward them to serious inquirers. At this point, it must be known that this is the position in Islam, that there is consensus in it and that for those that argue the harm coming as a consequence exceeds the benefit, then they should know that this is at best an argument that entails a difference of opinion although the evidence suggests adopting the platform that we ourselves have taken. The law, known as shariah, in Islam is sacred and it is for no man to change, alter, or disregard when reacting to events like the recent degrading of the Prophet Muhammad (saws) on South Park. Indeed there is an Islamic ruling on nearly every affair and Muslims must seek their response in the religion and not in the personal desire and false manipulation of subjective introspection via reason or in most cases emotional attachment bent on socialized norms. Allah says in the Quran, “And do not clothe the truth with the falsehood, nor hide the truth while you know (2:42).” It is not for us to convey what we desire but to convey the religion in its entirety no matter the consequence. Allah also says in the Quran, “Surely you can have no true faith until you refer to the Prophet Muhammad in all your affairs. (4:65).” Thus the postings that have caused so much controversy on revolutionmuslim.com with regard to this matter were actually not the publication of the opinion of some Muslims but a referral and deferment to Islamic Law, thus fulfilling our divine obligation to command the good and forbid the evil by teaching and preaching the religion of Islam no matter how strange that way of life may seem to some. This is a divine order, obligatory for at least some Muslims in any community to fulfill. Allah says, ُ ُ َ َلْ َ ُن ّن ُمْ ُ ّ ٌ َدْ ُو َ َِى الْ َيْرِ َ َأْ ُ ُو َ ِالْ َعْ ُوفِ َ َنْ َو َ ع ِ الْ ُن َرِ َأوَْـ ِك و تك م ك أمة ي ع ن إل خ وي مر ن ب م ر وي ه ْن َن م ك وُ ل ئ هم م لح ن َ الْ ُفِْ ُو
Let there arise out of you a band of people inviting to all that is good, enjoining what is right, and forbidding what is wrong: They are the ones to attain felicity. (3:104) Ibn Kathir, in his renown exogenesis of the Holy Quran says that this is not restricted to people with official authority, or in this case is not restricted to those that are seeking appeasements with the American Empire and are in actuality from amongst its staunchest allies despite that they claim to be Muslim and have been granted positions of leadership here in this country. Ibn Kathir states, “The objective of this Ayah is that there should be a segment of this Muslim Ummah fulfilling this task, even though it is also an obligation on every member of this Ummah, each according to his ability. Muslim recorded that Abu Hurayrah said that the Messenger of Allah said, مَنْ ََى ِنْ ُمْ ُنْ َ ًا َلْ ُ َ ّرْ ُ ِ َ ِ ِ، َِنْ َمْ َسْ َ ِعْ َ ِِ َا ِ ِ، َِنْ َمْ َسْ َ ِع َ ِ َلْ ِ ِ، َذِ َ َضْ َ ُ ا ِي َان رأ م ك م كر ف يغي ه بيده فإ ل ي تط فبلس نه فإ ل ي تط فبق به و لك أ عف لْ م “Whoever among you witnesses an evil, let him change it with his hand. If he is unable, then let him change it with his tongue. If he is unable, then let him change it with his heart, and this is the weakest faith.” Speaking out against ending this kind of belittling insult toward the Prophet Muhammad is completely in line with the tenets of the religion, should have been undertaken by the so-called leadership who remain silent, and is an obligation on Muslims everywhere to defend their Prophet (saws) with whatever strength they can muster. Thus our position remains that it is likely the creators of South Park will indeed end up like Theo Van Gogh and we pray that Allah makes that reality. However, as stated in the words of the Prophet above, if one cannot alter the situation with their hand then they must speak out against it and try to change it that way and we would also like to Mr. Parker and Mr. Stone understand the tastelessness of their portrayal, apologize and reflect on the words that follow. Any Muslim that condones this type of behavior or minimizes it does not fulfill the obligation of hating it with his or her heart and thus as is stated emphatically in the hadith may fall outside the necessary status of holding onto even the weakest of faith. Many conquered peopled become completely oblivious to function of their oppressor in enslaving their minds so we seek no harm against them, but do hope that they may be inspired to adopt a proactive stance and work alongside us in the struggle to liberate Islam and Muslims from foreign control. Individual Muslims may react in quite the same manner as those non-Muslims, claiming that we are making Islam look backwards and ancient, overreacting and bringing about more harm than good. These same individuals decry every act of so-called terrorism while remaining completely silent in the face of U.S. terror; every time a leader of those courageously defending occupied Muslim lands from occupation is killed or captured they applaud. They constantly sit silent as tanks and troopers are deployed and have little to say as the empire expands. In fact, they hurry to the American Empire to let them know they are with them at least in some of the matter. Today, as Obama perpetuates a War on Islam, they perpetuate the tale that the United States is at war with a fringe group of extremists. Allah explains this phenomenon in the Quran by saying, َ َ َى اّ ِي َ ِي ُُو ِ ِم ّ َ ٌ ُ َا ِ ُو َ ِي ِمْ َ ُوُو َ َخْ َى َن ُ ِي َ َا َآ ِ َ ٌ َ َ َى ا ّ َن فتر لذ ن ف قل به مرض يس رع ن ف ه يق ل ن ن ش أ تص بن د ئرة فعس ل أ َ َأْ ِي يت
َ ِالْ َتْ ِ َوْ َمْرٍ ّنْ ِن ِ ِ َ ُصْ ِ ُواْ ََى َا َ َ ّواْ ِي َنْ ُ ِ ِمْ َا ِ ِين ب ف ح أ أ م ع ده في بح عل م أسر ف أ فسه ن دم Those in whose hearts is a disease - you see how eagerly they run about amongst them, saying: "We do fear that a change of fortune may bring us disaster." Ah! perhaps Allah will give you victory, or a decision according to His will. Then will they repent of the thoughts which they secretly harbored in their hearts Today Muslims the world over run and say that Muslims like us do not represent Islam, as if in some way speaking out against empire is in fact causing it. In order to survive, empires must conscript support, and usually impose a loyal indigenous elite over the lands they conquer. Oftentimes these loyal elite find ways of influencing the home front as well. Empire is primarily concerned with preserving political, economic, and military dominance and therefore tends to portray itself as tolerant and pluralistic of the cultures and customs of those they conquer. However, a closer objective analysis always reveals that this tolerance is a guise of strategy and is only apparent where the conquered are willing to retain personal customs and control in exchange for the sacrifice of indigenous sovereignty over wealth, natural resource, and political decision. Thus while empires rape and extract the material wealth of the people they dominate, they grant the seeming retention of indigenous language, custom, religion and the like. In reality, this focus on power and control leads to the actual loss of spiritual, psychological, and emotional health and, as an elite is imposed, the educated class is granted modest concessions and then political and economic rights of the general people are violated for the long term. This requires that what a conquered people consider sacred must be portrayed as backwards. While this process tends to occur subconsciously it lead to a sense of power and privilege on the home shores of the imperialist that serve as a justification for the atrocities committed and thereby minimized on the frontier: the term “sand-nigger” or “camel jockey” did not start with American soldiers on the ground in Iraq, but was a phrase coined during Britain’s imperialist adventure in the Middle East, the ‘other’s’ culture and custom must always be degraded in order to retain a justification for physical domination. Media always plays a role in perpetuating these ideas. The process of imperialism thereafter splits a conquered people up into two camps: the good and the bad. The god are those that accept domination and vie for safety by adopting the position that the Empire isn’t an imperialist entity at all, but rather a liberator – the bad are those that refuse to sacrifice autonomy and continue to fight on… Americans should be all too familiar with the process; the very foundation of their nation is built upon the genocide of the indigenous Native Americans. So too then in its occurrence, ‘good’ Indians collaborated with American settlers against the ‘bad’ Indians; they demonized them for fighting and not accepting defeat and were subsequently displayed by the imperialist power as proof for the benign nature of America’s early expansion. The genocide of Indians would have been impossible without their collaboration. We face similar situations as Muslims today. This phenomenon is true of Babylonian, Greek, Roman, Persian, British empires, indeed all imperialist powers employ the same means. The creators of South Park so too emulate this process in their work and in their own right contribute greatly to passive acceptance of a sick status quo. The contemporary American Empire is dependent on a hedonistic, consumerist mindset that effectively numbs the general world populace and thus keeps them ignorant and oblivious to the imperialist reality. Thus when 9-11 happens Americans are told it is due to Muslims hating their freedom and democracy and are never told that the perpetrators of the
attack cited the death of millions of Muslims at the hands of U.S. foreign policy. With the help of media, Americans are kept oblivious to the heinous crimes of the empire overseas and especially in Afghanistan and Iraq over the past eight years by a complacent news media and garbage consumerist television shows like South Park that serve as the new opiate of the masses. One of the only ways we could ever end American Empire would be to take away the ideological justification it finds via its mainstream media outlets. Thus it should be apparent that we perceive this incident not in isolation but as part of a broader narrative that is part and parcel of a much more complex and deeply seeded crisis amongst humanity. Thomas Friedman, proponent of this empire, explains the contemporary order is sustained by, “the presence of American power and America’s willingness to use that power against those who would threaten the system of globalization… The hidden hand of the market will never work without the fist,” but it is also true that the hidden hand of the market would never work without a mind-numbing American media that can help to pacify those that would otherwise stand opposed of economic domination and the military domination it is dependent upon. The stance that we have taken is a derivative of this much deeper war, and our intention is not only to fulfill the command of forbidding evil in Islam but to engage both Muslims and non-Muslims alike in a much deeper discussion. Certainly, the mainstream media will never allow that to happen, but there are massive alternative opportunities in this, the information age. It should be understood that we will not lie over and accept America’s imperialist conquest of Muslims and will speak against any and all activities that leads to that being the case. Finally, Allah says in the Quran, ْ انْ ِ ُواْ ِ َا ًا َ ِ َا ً َ َا ِ ُواْ َِمْ َاِ ُمْ ََن ُ ِ ُمْ ِي َ ِيلِ ا ّ َِ ُمْ َيْ ٌ ّ ُمْ ِن ُن ُم فر خف ف وثق ل وج هد بأ و لك وأ فسك ف سب ل ذلك خ ر لك إ ك ت ت لم ن َ َعَْ ُو Go forth, whether light or heavy, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! That is best for you if you but knew. In the end, we seek justice and preservation of Islamic culture and will not stand passive and silent in these tumultuous times. We implore conscious people everywhere to do the same and are open to the advice, suggestions, and general conversation with all those that would like to engage in detailed discussion, we plan on hosting some open dialogue opportunities as soon as our website is back up and running. We call humanity to the solution that is the religion of Islam and to recognize the beauty and fabulous religion given by the Prophet Muhammad to the entire world. We hope that the creators of South Park may read this and respond, that before sending hate mail and condemning us that we may partake in dialogue and that the Western media’s degradation of the most blessed of men ceases, otherwise we warn all that many reactions will not involve speech and that defending those that insult, belittle, or degrade the Prophet Muhammad is a requirement of the religion. As Osama bin Laden said with regard to the cartons of Denmark, “if there is no check in the freedom of your words, then let your hearts be open to the freedom of our actions.”

If you read that, you'll see why religion is dangerous and essentially bad for the growth of the human race in the way it is currently used.

as much as I see the problems religion causes today, back in the days before legal systems, what else was there to discourage people from attacking, killing, stealing, torturing or any participating in any other horrendus crime apart from the fear of god?

Originally Posted by Thatperson

"... what else was there to discourage people from attacking, killing, stealing, torturing or any participating in any other horrendus crime apart from the fear of god?"

Are you kidding me????

how about:

Spoiler for YOUR ANSWER:

Intelligent educated moral reasoning

and that existed 5,000 years ago did it? Morals are an artifical thing and what is moral/immoral can change quite easily. Murder being about the only universally immoral thing since the dawn of time. They hardly had the education system we do today. Today we have law enforcement and morals, yet we still see crime. If all law was abolished throughout the globe today, just image what society would be like.

So you're comparing law enforcement to religious dogma???

Also, i stated that NOW (current period of time) we should realize that we as a race have out grown the need of religion, and NOW we do have education, and a proper ideal standard of moral basics and most laws are based along those.

Originally Posted by Thatperson

as much as I see the problems religion causes today, back in the days before legal systems, what else was there to discourage people from attacking, killing, stealing, torturing or any participating in any other horrendus crime apart from the fear of god?

Retribution. An eye for an eye still rules in certain parts of the world. Religion was never meant to be a moral framework, the gods of the religions of antiquity were anything but moral.

Originally Posted by MementoMori

If you read that, you'll see why religion is dangerous and essentially bad for the growth of the human race in the way it is currently used.

I agree fully.

Paraknight, you seem very vocal in your fear/mistrust/hatred of Islam, whichever one of these emotions it might be. What do you suggest is the best way to deal with the threat of militant Islam?

Originally Posted by imran_p

Paraknight, you seem very vocal in your fear/mistrust/hatred of Islam, whichever one of these emotions it might be. What do you suggest is the best way to deal with the threat of militant Islam?

I think the threat of militant Islam should be handled the same way one would handle the threat of any other violent threat. I think they should be treated like any person should. If they infringe on the law of the country they live in, let alone infringe on human rights, they should be treated accordingly completely separate from their religion. I take that as self-evident.

As far as I'm aware, the Quran instructs Muslims to heed the law. But Islamic order should not be applied to any non-Muslim. Without exception. If Comedy Central decides to depict Mohammed, express your anger, but deal with it. Today we see the result of merging government with religion: Iran. If they're happy to live that way then so be it, as long as they don't harm those who don't agree.

A while back, during an existential crisis, I read the Quran. I had tons of questions. But after having long, long conversions with scholars and Imams, down at the mosque here, or elsewhere, I know that our perception of Islam today is as a result of ignorance in non-Muslims and especially the Muslims involved. I know the true nature of Islam; I know that it is a religion of peace and I despise any so-called "Muslims" who have been brainwashed for political motives or simply misinformed that soil the name of Islam. That's my opinion and it will take a lot to change it; disagree as much as you want.

I looked up a few of MMori's quoted verse translations in my own copy of the Quran, and I gotta tell ya, even I could see how heavily out of context they were, even before reading the "accepted" interpretations. Nonetheless, there's an esteemed Egyptian scholar at an institution a few kms from where I am, and since he's fluent at Arabic, I will show him the original verses and see what he says. I'll post what he says here anyway regardless of whether or not anybody cares. I respect Islam greatly, not the Muslims.

</personalopinon>

I posted those as a direct example of quotes that mostly likely are taken out of context by extremists. I understand an intelligent, morally sound person can read whatever section they are in and pull out a metaphorical understanding of what they are trying to convey.

BUT religious extremists will and DO take quotes like those i posted for direct solid factual commandments from their "god" to carry them out. This is what i was trying point out, that yes they are almost certainly taken out of context (though i don't believe any text that holds such strength over someones mind should have such things in them...) and that this is why it's such a problem for non-muslims and muslims that understand that it's a teaching system and not a direct or from god being passed down through the years....

calling Islam peacful is like calling christianity a religion of terrorism. There may be some truth based on holy book technicalities, but the reality is opposite.

Paraknight, you resepct a religion that wants to dominate the world, by force or not (infiltrating a population to 10% then start getting heavy). Encourages polygamy and generally lacks respect for womens rights. Is intolerant to many things including private behind closed door homosexuality and many other western freedoms. Like all religions it has many good things but it is incompatible with Western society.

Originally Posted by Thatperson

Paraknight, you resepct a religion that wants to dominate the world, ...Like all religions it has many good things but it is incompatible with Western society.

this exactly ^