Thread: Your stance towards Islam

Militancy in Muslim lands owes more to those nations' dynamic with the West and their diminishing resources than to anything inherent in Islam. Islam and Christianity have been duking it out for world domination since the first empires of each faith arose, and for the last thousand-ish years the Middle East has taken the brunt of that battle at the same time that the land was growing barren, removing all capacity for cultural advancement and forcing the constant funneling of meager resources to militarization. Their hostility toward the West has a lot to do with that boot we've had to their necks for a few centuries now.

I don't have any views about Islam that don't apply to monotheism as a whole--it worked well enough when cultures were isolated and may have assisted in one stage of civilization's development, but in an increasingly interconnected global community, monotheism's internecine squabbles may be the single greatest threat to life on earth.

Even though I am Jewish, I've always been a bit interested in Islam... I just feel that many parts of the Koran are interpreted in the wrong way. When extremists say that the Jihad allows them to blow up people and kill to go to heaven, I feel that if the Koran was read deeper or in spiritual meaning, the Jihad is more of an internal spiritual war... not physical(or at least not as physical as the extremists make it appear).

I have friends who are moderate Islamic believers or who were brought up with the religion, but later left it, and I have nothing at all against them or their beliefs.

Originally Posted by SaMaster14

Even though I am Jewish, I've always been a bit interested in Islam... I just feel that many parts of the Koran are interpreted in the wrong way. When extremists say that the Jihad allows them to blow up people and kill to go to heaven, I feel that if the Koran was read deeper or in spiritual meaning, the Jihad is more of an internal spiritual war... not physical(or at least not as physical as the extremists make it appear).

Yup. "Jihad" translated directly simply means "struggle"; implications of war are all misconceptions. It's kinda sad really since planned suicide = eternal hell, pretty much, according to the Quran.

Today in Sweeden:

Well I don't like any religions. I can co-exist with them, but even that is questionable when a judeo religion can turn into the fanatic sunni religions plaguing the world today. (don't get me wrong western religion messed up in their time and continues to in a degree.)

I believe Islam is a religion of peace, it's always a few bad people that ruin it for everyone. Plus radical Islam seems really stupid. The Islamic text the Quran preaches peace and tolerance, yet they go around and do the exact opposite.

Originally Posted by Caprisun

Today in Sweeden

you misspelled "Sweden"

thanks

As has been said, many people butcher a faith to suit their needs. I for example, choose to follow only the parts of the bible that say "love your fellow man" "respect each other" "do unto others as you would have them do unto you". Islam does leave a lot of room for intepretation, like any scripture. There are people that follow it to the letter, those that try to find a contextual meaning behind it; those who follow it in the whole, and those who pick and choose. You shouldn't hold a whole faith to blame because of what a minority tries to do. The day the amount of extremists in Islam reaches 51%, I will be right there with the torches and pitchforks. Until then, leave 'em alone :p

As well, I don't understand why everyone hates religion as a whole. It makes many people happy, and yes it has started many wars; however, politics have started wars, money has started wars, back in prehistory, I am sure wars were started over food (though I can't help but think about tangibility). I am sure that (with a few exceptions, of course) everything has pissed someone off at some point. If someone's religion doesn't hurt anyone, and makes them feel better, the only reason that you want to disprove them is because you a) want to make them suffer, or b) are too insecure about your own intelligence to go about your day without asking "I disprove, I smart now?". Both of those are against the spirit of most religions.

As has been said, just about every major religious teacher gained followers with a message of peace and love, and that message has been perverted. I agree, if they want to warp that message, go ahead: troll them, flame them, huck rocks and sticks at them if you choose. Religion needs to get back to their roots. And one day, if religion and world peace co-exist together, and you still want to stir the pot and try to disprove it, then you are still an asshole

You've got the questions?
I've got the answers.

Well, I tried to look into Islam after meeting a nice muslim woman, who's in a forced marriage by the way. She likes me and wants out of the marriage... however I am not a Muslim. And the islam religion only permits marriages between muslim people, they can't marry outside of their religion. So I wanted to give an honest look into it... by chapter 2 of the Quran I had to stop reading when it began talking about looking down on Non believers and it was saying that all nonbelievers would meet a terrific Doom or something. I'm sorry. I can not be a part of a religion that forces me to look down upon fellow men and women. I can't join that religion not even for the sake of a woman. I know she is well indoctrinated in her religious beliefs and I won't force her ever to get out of them, especially since in her country, their laws permit death penalty to those who speak out against their religion. If she defies her families wishes and gets out of an arranged marriage, even to go for a non muslim man like me, she would bring shame to her family, even threatened to be killed. But if she doesn't, she will surrender her free will unto a man whom she doesn't love. I have done my research on the marriage thing... and The prophet of Allah even speaks out against forced marriages... and yet they are practices as the islamic thing to do. This goes on in the UK as well. It's a sure Fickle that Islam has gotten itself into.

And the islam religion only permits marriages between muslim people, they can't marry outside of their religion.

This only applies to women. Men can marry outside of Islam, with some restrictions.

Originally Posted by Photolysis

This only applies to women. Men can marry outside of Islam, with some restrictions.

That sucks... Not fair to women is it?

Originally Posted by Man of Shred

That sucks... Not fair to women is it?

It's political. Children officially inherit the father's religion. Islam is the fastest growing religion not on converts alone.

It's still unfair to women. It eliminates their freedom of choice.

Newsflash, nearly all religions treat women as things.

Originally Posted by Man of Shred

It's still unfair to women. It eliminates their freedom of choice.

I think not being allowed to do something trumps being forced to do it. For example I was forced to join the army while my sister was not. On the other hand, I don't mind women getting maternity leave even though as a man I can't get it.

I think in Islam is a question of tradition though. Men were the ones who traditionally proposed and still are mostly the ones to propose; their choice is virtually unlimited while women simply say yes or no to whomever comes their way.

I think it's important to remember that the entire system of marriage works completely differently in Islam. It's a little hard to try and apply western values on relationships to a system completely incompatible to it. You don't have dating etc. Basically if you meet somebody you're interested in, you get objective information on them through there relatives (a system to it's own), they can judge whether you might be compatible in conjunction with consulting the woman while you consult your own. It's almost like applying for a job. The woman and other 3rd parties, unblinded by emotional love, can together with their families judge whether the marriage really is sustainable and make a decision that is ultimately up to the woman in question. Similarly the man won't be breaking up after 3 months if he took it seriously. Relationships are taken way more seriously amongst Muslims and divorce is also frowned upon. It's the same the other way around.

Whether or not it compromises their freedom only starts being an issue if you're a Muslim woman living in the U.S.A. for example, in which case the government won't rape you and you're free to act on whatever you think is right, whether it be marrying a non-Muslim or not. Likewise you'll have a hard time finding a Muslim man married to a non-Muslim woman in an Islamic country because *everyone* would know. Regardless of whether it's unfair or not, it's all politics. We have human traditions, that spawned religions, to blame for their policies. Even today most countries do tis inheritance thing where you get your father's surname, nationality and whatever.

Alright... If this woman in question, that I know, Leaves her forced marriage and chooses to move to my country to get engaged to me... That would go against her religion. I'm calling a spade a spade here. If this woman goes through with her engagement to someone she doesn't love... she will surrender her free will unto slavery and bondage. I could be a way out, I would never beat or enslave or rape any woman what so ever, She would still have free will. But she's not permitted to marry me because it's against her religion, and in her country those who speak against islam can be fined or even put to death. So either way she's fucked. I don't care if a political system of relationships are incompatible... The islamic system is severely flawed.

Originally Posted by UsernameTheRand

Islam has pretty much expanded solely on conquest, other than the modern day and some missionary efforts in Southeast Asia/Africa.

You mean like Christianity has... other than modern-day missionary efforts?

Originally Posted by MementoMori

whoever wrote that the spaghetti monster said to kill, and think a large majority of people are smart enough to decide for themselves morally. As equally is the one who killed...

That hardly makes sense at all. So if some idiot says something and then a bunch of idiots follow his advice, only the original idiot is to blame? The people who made a conscious decision to follow his word are equally at fault.
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Some of you are forgetting that Islam hasn't changed as radically since medieval times as Christianity has. That's more of a cultural or even political (?) thing, not necessarily a religious thing. Christianity and Islam were one and the same, the only real difference is that Christianity changed a lot over the years. Christianity hardly treated women better than Islam did, they only do so now because modern day Christianity has adapted to "Western" views.

Hopefully I worded that correctly.

Originally Posted by MementoMori

whoever wrote that the spaghetti monster said to kill, and think a large majority of people are smart enough to decide for themselves morally. As equally is the one who killed...

He said they're both to blame.

Right. I knew that. Just testing you, is all. Gotta read between the lines and whatnot. Lots of whatnot.

The Qur'an lays out clear guidelines for marriage. One of the main traits you should look for in a potential spouse is a similarity in religious outlook. For the sake of compatibility, and the upbringing of future children, it is most recommended for a Muslim to marry another Muslim. However, in some circumstances it is permissible for a Muslim to marry a non-Muslim.

Muslim Man and Non-Muslim Woman
In general, Muslim men are not permitted to marry non-Muslim women. "Do not marry unbelieving women until they believe. A slave woman who believes is better than an unbelieving woman, even though she allures you.... Unbelievers beckon you to the Fire. But Allah beckons by His Grace to the garden of bliss and forgiveness. And He makes His signs clear to mankind, that they may receive admonition" (Qur'an 2:221).

An exception is made for Muslim men to marry chaste or pious Jewish and Christian women, who are referred to as "People of the Book." This comes from the understanding that Jews and Christians share similar religious outlooks - a belief in One God, following the commandments of Allah, a belief in revealed scripture (Books), etc. "This day are all things good and pure made lawful to you.... Lawful to you in marriage are not only chaste women who are believers, but chaste women among the People of the Book, revealed before your time, when you give them their due dowers, and desire chastity not lewdness. If any one rejects faith, fruitless is his work, and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost" (Qur'an 5:5).

The children of such a union are always to be raised in the faith of Islam. This should be discussed thoroughly by the couple before they decide to marry.

Muslim Woman and Non-Muslim Man
Under no conditions is a Muslim woman permitted to marry anyone but a Muslim man. The same verse cited above (2:221) mentions, "Nor marry your girls to unbelievers until they believe. A man slave who believes is better than an unbeliever...." No exception is given for women to marry Jews and Christians, so the law stands that she may only marry a believing (Muslim) man. As head of the household, the husband provides leadership for the family. A Muslim woman does not follow the leadership of someone who does not share her faith and values.

Political gain or different idealogies or not. In the circumstance of the women I know in question, these verses severely limit a women's choice of marriage partner. Limiting her freedom. I've called a spade a spade.

Originally Posted by Man of Shred

Political gain or different idealogies or not. In the circumstance of the women I know in question, these verses severely limit a women's choice of marriage partner. Limiting her freedom. I've called a spade a spade.

I don't think it's such a big deal. People often forget that Muslim men are also human; it's not like they were raised to suppress their wife (their only chance to ever get laid). Men don't inherently hate women. Likewise if you ask any Muslim woman, she'll tell you she doesn't care. It's pretty rare anyway to see a muslim-nonmuslim marriage. The structure in family is in itself an intricate system. Men carry certain responsibilities, i.e. freedom to, while women carry others; freedom from. They both have different expectations. The man gets more musts while the woman gets more don'ts. They're equal but not identical. Muslims, just like any other religion, think that the others are flat out wrong. They also think that teaching your children wrong things is wrong. What governments in Islamic countries or extremists do is a whole different ballgame.

Western societies think that it's all about freedom and liberty when it might well be not. To draw a parallel, think of Vietnam. Or watch this slightly off-topic yet similar video I found.



"Rest of the World" obviously being America. :/

Originally Posted by Paraknight

I think not being allowed to do something trumps being forced to do it. For example I was forced to join the army while my sister was not. On the other hand, I don't mind women getting maternity leave even though as a man I can't get it.

Rights should not be based on gender. You shouldn't have to join the army and your sister should be able to marry whoever she wants to without being threatened. These are both examples of other people using force against you. Groups using unprovoked force against an individual should not be tolerated.