Thread: Your stance towards Islam

Originally Posted by stonedape

Rights should not be based on gender. You shouldn't have to join the army and your sister should be able to marry whoever she wants to without being threatened. These are both examples of other people using force against you. Groups using unprovoked force against an individual should not be tolerated.

They're not as much rights as they are roles. Men and women are different no matter what and cannot be treated equally with everything. I didn't want to join the army but I thought it was justified that women didn't have to.

It's like sexual orientation for example. A gay man has every right to be open about his sexuality, but would he really want to given that a given society would view him differently? Would he want to tell his parents if they would then disown him? A Muslim woman can decide to go through a marriage that the parents don't agree with but it mightn't be in her best interest. In Islam it's still down to the woman; some countries and cultures don't understand that and kill their daughter or have a forced marriage or whatever but it shouldn't be that way. Ultimately, women living in an Islamic community find that even if they were given the choice, they wouldn't marry a non-Muslim simply because of the social implications.

Originally Posted by Man of Shred

Agreed. And the women in question did say that she has no desire to marry into her arrangement, she only said "yes," after constant pressure from her family to marry someone, and even then she did not even look at the man. She even believe that he beats women.

She had a choice of either marrying him and pleasing her family or not marrying him and pleasing herself. I personally think her family shouldn't pressure her that way and once things get to domestic violence then it's clear they we're flat out wrong. The action in itself is noble but the fundamental problem lies in how others view it. It's just like Sartre said.

At the same time nobody will ever truly be free to marry whoever they want. Yet people should be allowed to do what they decide to. If they don't agree with Islamic views, they should be allowed to leave Islam without any social implications or compromising their safety.

Well one thing I do Applaud in the Koran is that there are verses that speak against arranged marriages.

Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas: "A virgin came to the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and mentioned that her father had married her against her will, so the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) allowed her to exercise her choice. (Translation of Sunan Abu-Dawud, Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Book 11, Number 2091)"

Originally Posted by Paraknight

They're not as much rights as they are roles. Men and women are different no matter what and cannot be treated equally with everything. I didn't want to join the army but I thought it was justified that women didn't have to.

You should have the right not to be in the army, people regardless of gender should have the right to marry who they want. People should have the right not to play out a certain role chosen for them by society and the should be able to do so without being prosecuted. I understand that they may not be able to, but this is due to people's ignorance.

We cannot treat men and women exactly the same, but that does not mean that society should impose it's will onto men or women. Inevitably it will, but inevitably people like me will not like it and try to change it.

Originally Posted by Paraknight

It's like sexual orientation for example. A gay man has every right to be open about his sexuality, but would he really want to given that a given society would view him differently? Would he want to tell his parents if they would then disown him? A Muslim woman can decide to go through a marriage that the parents don't agree with but it mightn't be in her best interest. In Islam it's still down to the woman; some countries and cultures don't understand that and kill their daughter or have a forced marriage or whatever but it shouldn't be that way. Ultimately, women living in an Islamic community find that even if they were given the choice, they wouldn't marry a non-Muslim simply because of the social implications.

Do you think that those social implications are healthy, or are they based around power seeking, putting men in the active role and women in the passive? There are plenty of similar practices in the west, I'm not against Islam, I'm against people using force on others to get them to do what they want.

Originally Posted by stonedape

You should have the right not to be in the army, people regardless of gender should have the right to marry who they want. People should have the right not to play out a certain role chosen for them by society and the should be able to do so without being prosecuted. I understand that they may not be able to, but this is due to people's ignorance.

We cannot treat men and women exactly the same, but that does not mean that society should impose it's will onto men or women. Inevitably it will, but inevitably people like me will not like it and try to change it.


Do you think that those social implications are healthy, or are they based around power seeking, putting men in the active role and women in the passive? There are plenty of similar practices in the west, I'm not against Islam, I'm against people using force on others to get them to do what they want.

Not at all; I'm just making an observation. If enough people really were opposed to a given norm, it would change. The opposite would become the new norm and the people against that would be the ones who feel oppressed. It's because of the differences between men and women that they are treated differently and have different expectations. Sometimes it works and people are happy, while there will always be people who don't like it. In the end people will do what is in their best interest.

If you take away from one form of oppression, you add to another. For instance, you could either have the freedom to do whatever you want (for example rob a bank), or be free from having to worry about getting robbed, thanks to laws that force people not to steal. You have to compromise somewhere.

It's always nice to see men and women switching roles, but as soon as a woman gets pregnant as in unable to work or a man unable to raise his children you start getting complications simply because of their differences. Give a man a uterus and a woman regular testosterone injections and then they can truly be equal. It's more common to see women that are happy to stay at home and men that are happy to be the financial providers. Likewise, many Muslim men I know find it unfair that they have to put up with the pressure of their expectations and find a bride, instead of the woman, who could do the same, but out of tradition remains the one who accepts proposals.

If a Muslim woman doesn't want to follow the teachings of Islam, she should be allowed to leave Islam without getting stoned to death or whatever. The question remains if that's what she truly wants to do. Physical force and threats isn't the problem here, it's keeping the love of your family. And it's not just Religion; any social structure will do the same. It's inevitable.

It's the same way with homosexuality; you might support it if others are, but if your own son comes out of the closet, evolutionarily you'd feel like a failure. You don't even have to be religious. It shouldn't be that way but it is. Come what may, it won't change since every idea has opposition. If you decrease one thing, you increase something else.

Originally Posted by Paraknight

If you take away from one form of oppression, you add to another. For instance, you could either have the freedom to do whatever you want (for example rob a bank), or be free from having to worry about getting robbed, thanks to laws that force people not to steal. You have to compromise somewhere.

This is sort of different. It's one thing to have the freedom to impose your will upon others and another to have the freedom not to have others impose their will upon you. Not being able to kill and steal isn't really oppression, it's a social agreement that almost all people hold. Not being able to marry, or not being able to refuse to join the army are very different. People in society agree not to steal and kill because it is in their best interest to live in harmony with others, to support each other, to be a community basically. Oppression is not necessary for society.

Originally Posted by Paraknight

It's the same way with homosexuality; you might support it if others are, but if your own son comes out of the closet, evolutionarily you'd feel like a failure. You don't even have to be religious. It shouldn't be that way but it is. Come what may, it won't change since every idea has opposition. If you decrease one thing, you increase something else.

I disagree, I would not feel like a failure. I've never had a problem with gay people, but a few years ago I might have agreed. But I came to realize the nature of this illusion. If it was a daughter we were talking about I certainly would not have. This is the case with many aspects of homosexuality, lesbians are ok but 2 guys, no way(I'm sorry that this rhymes, unintentional). This has to do with our own identity and insecurities about homosexuality. Men in are culture are raised to think that it is bad for them to be gay or in any way feminine. This is lodged deeply in our psyche. If we have a son we directly identify with him, he is a little version of us. Now we have a deep complex that says no matter what we cannot be gay, so this gets passed on to our son since he is part of our identity.

It has nothing to do with offspring or anything biological, it is all psychological. It is all based on cultural norms and pressures.

People have preconceived notions about what there children should be. These people are wrong and their lack of love for who their children are regardless of what that is shows a total lack of understanding of spiritual or religious teachings in my opinion.These people do not truly understand love. If your child is truly doing something that is bad for them you don't ostracize them, you talk with them and explain to them the error of their way. Thing is in marrying who you choose, in being who you are, you are not doing anything wrong, it is the parents who cannot accept this that are "wrong".

I also disagree that everything is opposition, that if you increase one thing you decrease another. Music and love are two things that come to mind. These are things that in most cases create more and nourish things. By loving someone what do you lose? If the energy and ideas in a musical context are increased this builds energy and the whole band feeds off of this. Society is the same way.

Or are you saying that there will always be douschebags who hate on things?

Originally Posted by stonedape

Or are you saying that there will always be douschebags who hate on things?

That hits the nail on the head more or less. It's one thing how things should be and another how things are. I think the only way to solve problems is to look at their roots. Where do psychologically rooted social norms come from? Our own biology; it's the way we've evolved. People wouldn't be so touchy about homosexuality if it didn't fundamentally mean being unable to pass on genes. People act in their own self interest and nothing else. If they chose to love or help others, it's because it gives them pleasure to do so. The only time you get win-win situations like in music, or working social contracts, is if both parties benefit.

Not being able to do something = less freedom which in it's extremest form is oppression. Most Muslim women couldn't care less about not being able to marry non-Muslim men ("not being able to do something") in return for a strengthening their social structure for them as their children are raised religiously. It doesn't make them oppressed but it still means less freedom as a poster somewhere above me said. I think it's safe to say that moderate morals rooted in religions are generally a good thing since most of our mutual morals are. Why can the man marry a non-Muslim, yet religious, woman? Because the children inherit the fathers religion.

The man, being physically stronger, assumes dominance as reflected in our societies. I'm not giving justification here, I'm not saying any of this is how it should be, what I'm giving are causes, most of which in this case are rooted in psychology which is ultimately biology in it's purest form. I think as long as Muslim women don't mind, it shouldn't matter, and if they do, they should be allowed to leave Islam. That's it. I think it's rather trivial actually and there are much bigger problems that should be tackled.

One thing is right... Say this woman I know were to save money, get a passport, move and Marry me... She would lose her entire family support system.

I have no problem. But what I must say, is that Islam is NOT a peaceful religion, the Quaran itself says to kill the infidels, so honestly the only "true" followers of Islam are the suicide bombers.
(you get my point)
I had to study Islam last year so I know quite a lot of things about it, but all in all I don't have a problem with it, as long as you aren't a terrorist (that goes for any religion)

Originally Posted by erible

I have no problem. But what I must say, is that Islam is NOT a peaceful religion, the Quaran itself says to kill the infidels, so honestly the only "true" followers of Islam are the suicide bombers.
(you get my point)
I had to study Islam last year so I know quite a lot of things about it, but all in all I don't have a problem with it, as long as you aren't a terrorist (that goes for any religion)

I would imagine that out of those 1.7 billion followers of Islam (24% of the worlds population) surely at least a million would realise what their religion is truly preaching and either take down half the worlds population or simply leave Islam. The fact that not only is this not happening, but Islam continues to remain the world's fastest growing religion must imply something about where people get their information.

Originally Posted by erible

i have no problem. But what i must say, is that islam is not a peaceful religion, the quaran itself says to kill the infidels, so honestly the only "true" followers of islam are the suicide bombers.
(you get my point)
i had to study islam last year so i know quite a lot of things about it, but all in all i don't have a problem with it, as long as you aren't a terrorist (that goes for any religion)

lol.

My opinion about any religion...

awesome

Originally Posted by bradysdreaming

My opinion about any religion...

Religion isn't the only cause to war.
Religion is also sometimes the end to war.

Humans have always been violent throughout the ages, and if you label that as religion then there is no such thing as 'no religion' in the first place. We all have something by which we live by...

Religion doesn't cause much on its own, I don't think. More than anything it's an excuse. The problem is that people accept that excuse all too often.