Thread: Your stance towards Islam

Originally Posted by Thatperson

calling Islam peacful is like calling christianity a religion of terrorism. There may be some truth based on holy book technicalities, but the reality is opposite.

Paraknight, you resepct a religion that wants to dominate the world, by force or not (infiltrating a population to 10% then start getting heavy). Encourages polygamy and generally lacks respect for womens rights. Is intolerant to many things including private behind closed door homosexuality and many other western freedoms. Like all religions it has many good things but it is incompatible with Western society.

Islam does not want to dominate the world. Islam does not "encourage" polygamy nor does it forbid it. Islam does not disrespect women's rights. (In fact sometimes I feel it's quite the opposite.) Some "western freedoms" simply are considered sinful in Islam. And some Arabic traditions are misconstrued as Islamic principles.
We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. If you knew even as much about Islam as I do I'm sure you would change your mind quite a bit. I challenge you to walk up to a mosque and interrogate anybody with a sound understanding of the Quran just like I did. Just because you know something, doesn't mean it still can't be true or have a greater meaning behind it. Not too long ago, people knew the world was flat. Do you honestly think a religion of terror would be today's fastest growing religion in the world? Sorry if I seem a little rigid about this but I truly feel that Muslims are being wronged here. It's certain groups of extremists that the media has you focused on; I know many Muslims that live a peaceful life here and have not yet noticed any incompatibilities.

Why are the sins of religious people so often attributed to the concept of religion?

Sure, the negative things caused by religion wouldn't have existed in the absence of religion. But holy crap, you could say that about literally hundreds and hundreds of things.

People don't attribute the guilt of totalitarianism to the idea of politics and society, (at least not nearly so often,) even though those two things allow totalitarianism to exist. The whole idea that the general idea of something is responsible for all incarnations of it would seem self-evidently flawed, I should think.

Don't even get me started on how this argument could be flipped around on science. Because anyone should be able to see where that could be taken.

What is the trail of logic? Theism creates religions. Religions can be evil. Therefore, theism is evil.

Originally Posted by imran_p

Paraknight, you seem very vocal in your fear/mistrust/hatred of Islam, whichever one of these emotions it might be. What do you suggest is the best way to deal with the threat of militant Islam?

Well, this one time a few months ago, we were having a huge problem with IED's on this one road in particular. Soldiers, as well as Afghani civilians, were being wounded or killed at an alarming rate. So we set up observation posts on the road night after night, until early one morning two guys came out to place an IED. They were promptly shot and killed right there on the road.

We haven't been hit on that road since. I'm just saying....it's a pretty effective method. It won't solve the problem, but then again nothing will.

Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming

Well, this one time a few months ago, we were having a huge problem with IED's on this one road in particular. Soldiers, as well as Afghani civilians, were being wounded or killed at an alarming rate. So we set up observation posts on the road night after night, until early one morning two guys came out to place an IED. They were promptly shot and killed right there on the road.

We haven't been hit on that road since. I'm just saying....it's a pretty effective method. It won't solve the problem, but then again nothing will.

I think going back to the roots of the problem and seeing why they want to bomb you in the first place, then working from there is the starting line. Of course easier said than done, but while effective in the short term, you're really not getting anywhere in the long run since they just get that much more of an excuse to build more IEDs.

Originally Posted by Paraknight

I think going back to the roots of the problem and seeing why they want to bomb you in the first place, then working from there is the starting line. Of course easier said than done, but while effective in the short term, you're really not getting anywhere in the long run since they just get that much more of an excuse to build more IEDs.

They want to blow me up because I'm on their land, even though it's shitty land. Even if we did pull out all the ground forces, close down all the bases, and stop flying planes in their airspace, they'd still find an excuse for violence. Some people just want violence to be a part of their lives, no matter what.

Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming

Even if we did pull out all the ground forces, close down all the bases, and stop flying planes in their airspace, they'd still find an excuse for violence.

I think not, but let's not get into that.

Originally Posted by Paraknight

Islam does not want to dominate the world.

Spoiler for Description under youtube video:

Muslims who insist that Islam is peaceful and tolerant are at odds with Quran, Hadith, Tafsir, and 1400 years of Islamic history and theological teachings. Islam cannot be reformed, its teachings cannot be "corrected" because oppressive Islam we have seen in country after country, century after century IS the real Islam.

Someone find me a translator... CanceledCzech, you wouldn't happen to know this language would you??

Spoiler for Description under youtube video:

Hamas MP and Cleric Yunis Al-Astal in a Friday Sermon: We Will Conquer Rome, and from There Continue to Conquer the Two Americas and Eastern Europe. Following are excerpts from an address by Hamas MP and cleric Yunis Al-Astal, which aired on Al-Aqsa TV on April 11, 2008. Yunis Al-Astal: Allah has chosen you for Himself and for His religion, so that you will serve as the engine pulling this nation to the phase of succession, security, and consolidation of power, and even to conquests thorough da\'wa and military conquests of the capitals of the entire world. Very soon, Allah willing, Rome will be conquered, just like Constantinople was, as was prophesized by our Prophet Muhammad. Today, Rome is the capital of the Catholics, or the Crusader capital, which has declared its hostility to Islam, and has planted the brothers of apes and pigs in Palestine in order to prevent the reawakening of Islam -- this capital of theirs will be an advanced post for the Islamic conquests, which will spread through Europe in its entirety, and then will turn to the two Americas, and even Eastern Europe. I believe that our children or our grandchildren will inherit our Jihad and our sacrifices, and Allah willing, the commanders of the conquest will come from among them. Today, we instill these good tidings in their souls, and by means of the mosques and the Koran books, and the history of our Prophets, his companions, and the great leaders, we prepare them for the mission of saving humanity from the hellfire on the brink of which they stand.

I would like to know if these translations are correct, or if they are twisting what these Islamic scholars and religious figures are speaking into a lie.

Also, can someone identify these people please.

Paraknight, you seem to be on a quest to rectify the Islamic religion. Qould you mind telling me if you know these two people, and if you know of anyone who can tell you if these translations are true ( though i would feel better getting a translation from a neutral party).

Even if Islam itself does not want to dominate the world, it will still inevitably happen due to migration, high birth rates and the "walk all over me" attitude of the western world.

There is a verse I know of relating to global dominace, in my Qur'an it reads

"It is he (allah) who has sent his messenger with guidance and religion of truth, to proclaim it over all religion, even though the pagans may detest (it)"

I have to admit, my knowledge of islam is most probably more limited than yours, albeit more than the average guy on the street. And I wish to learn more. Critisise Islam to a muslim? Well I value my life/health to much right now.

You say "here" but I'm not exactly sure where you are from though, I'd bet 99% not Europe. The European/North American situation is quite different, just ask any european who isn't self censoring due to political correctness.

I actually know of no compatible muslims in the UK, i'm not saying there are 0 in the whole of the UK but I know of none, And I know of maybe 200 or so, I am yet to see a fully integrated muslim. I know of two that are, I suppose close enough but they make up a very small minority.

added video descriptions from yt under the videos, collapsed them, and dropped them in quotes.

would really like to know something on those...

Hamas MP and Cleric Yunis Al-Astal

Al-Aqsa TV (Hamas-Gaza)

^Why am I not surprised? The Palestinians have every right to be enraged in my opinion. I haven't heard of these men since I prefer to listen to those who have not been stirred through first-hand experiences in their homeland. Just because he has a large beard and dresses that way doesn't mean his word is truth. The Quran says that Islam will eventually dominate through reason and persuasion (obviously, the goal of every religion is to spread it); the slaughter of "infidels" is deemed wrong, since they have the potential to become better Muslims than any of the missionaries or whoever. Those speakers are responding to and act of inhumane violence inflicted onto their country by Israel and their western allies. How do you expect them to react in their speeches? For every video you give me that promotes hate, I can give you 10 that do the opposite but those two videos aren't what I expected.

The Islamic religion holds at it's roots that it is meant to dominate the world, they also convey a confusing message t it's followers whether or not to act out in violence. Most can filter through the confusing messages, some cannot. These are the extremists, and they are the ones we fear will commit the acts of violence and impose on western societies freedoms.

This isn't a question of why they believe what they believe, or if they were provoked to speak up revealing these things.

So you're telling me that if provoked the Islamic nation should have every right to assert their dominance over the world through extremists?

Because that is exactly what is happening, i don't care what followers of the religion in other countries have to say about it honestly, it's the ones in the homeland that send out terrorists to assert Islam as the one true religion/governmental type of power in the world. These Islamic scholars in the Islamic homeland are proclaiming that Islam is due to rule the world and to crush America and Europe so how can you say they don't believe that?

That's like saying Christians in western societies don't believe in a holy war but catholics in the catholic homeland do and believe they are meant to rule the world so they're breeding terrorist cells to attack non-believers and oppressors of their religion, but there's nothing to fear because it's not everyone in the religion, it's just a certain select group, there's good people in the religion so don't worry...
(metaphorically if they were waging a violent holy war as Islam is... Hmmm CRUSADES)


.... I'm not saying the religion is bad.... NOT THE RELIGION.... I'm saying the radicals (who are very many) in the religion believe and back the jihad against western society (America;Europe) and are spreading the ideas and "misinterpretations" to other Islamic followers around the world (largely and quickly).


MY POINT: No religious/political body has the right to create, breed, or impose extremists on anyone else. If they do then they should be dealt with according to the LAW not according to THEIR RELIGION.

I don't care what your religious views are, or the morals attached to them, if you start threatening others with violence or begin committing acts of terrorism towards others based on ANY agenda even religion you should be held accountable under the Court of Law and not given any leniency due to religious/political beliefs/views/agenda of any kind and this most certainly includes Islam...


Edit: also, we all know the best way to solve a problem: Go to the root of it.
So the best way to solve the problem of extremists and religious radicals of Islam is to directly announce to the Islamic religion that America/Europe will NOT standby and allow them to call out to these extremist cells and request that they continue their work in their jihad. To tell them that we're not going to standby and allow them to impose on ANY part of our culture or freedoms. To tell them that they can keep their ways in their homeland and to stop trying to spread them BECAUSE WE DON'T WANT THEM. We don't believe in their beliefs, and our laws are NOT based on religious views. They're based on basic human rights and freedoms.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-3X5hIFXYU

When they talk about belgium they mean Brussels. The video predicts a european muslim population of 104 million (from 52 million in 2008) by 2028. That estimate is so conservative it's ridiculous. if Turkey joins the EU in 2015, it will probably rise by an extra 5-10 million in the year 2016 alone.

Originally Posted by MementoMori

The Islamic religion holds at it's roots that it is meant to dominate the world, they also convey a confusing message t it's followers whether or not to act out in violence. Most can filter through the confusing messages, some cannot. These are the extremists, and they are the ones we fear will commit the acts of violence and impose on western societies freedoms.

I assert the position that it does not hold at it's roots that it is meant to dominate the world, but instead, like any religion, spread. Other than that fair enough.

Originally Posted by MementoMori

This isn't a question of why they believe what they believe, or if they were provoked to speak up revealing these things.

So you're telling me that if provoked the Islamic nation should have every right to assert their dominance over the world through extremists?

Not at the slightest. All I was doing was attempting to explain where the reasons for those two speeches lie; I do not at all believe that such acts are justifiable nor that Islam encourages them. I just thought that simply saying "Those guys are wrong" would be rather shallow.

Originally Posted by MementoMori

Because that is exactly what is happening, i don't care what followers of the religion in other countries have to say about it honestly, it's the ones in the homeland that send out terrorists to assert Islam as the one true religion/governmental type of power in the world. These Islamic scholars in the Islamic homeland are proclaiming that Islam is due to rule the world and to crush America and Europe so how can you say they don't believe that?

"These Islamic scholars" do, but I can tell you with confidence that the Quran does not. Whether you chose to believe me is up to you. My point was your selection of videos was very narrow as those preachers were clearly biased and could have even had an ulterior political motive.

Originally Posted by MementoMori

That's like saying Christians in western societies don't believe in a holy war but catholics in the catholic homeland do and believe they are meant to rule the world so they're breeding terrorist cells to attack non-believers and oppressors of their religion, but there's nothing to fear because it's not everyone in the religion, it's just a certain select group, there's good people in the religion so don't worry...
(metaphorically if they were waging a violent holy war as Islam is... Hmmm CRUSADES)

There is very much to fear. Those certain groups should be dealt with accordingly instead of condemning the entire religion.

Originally Posted by MementoMori

.... I'm not saying the religion is bad.... NOT THE RELIGION.... I'm saying the radicals (who are very many) in the religion believe and back the jihad against western society (America;Europe) and are spreading the ideas and "misinterpretations" to other Islamic followers around the world (largely and quickly).

FoxNews makes you think they're many. Good deeds simply aren't interesting enough for the media and unity is best maintained through common antagonism.

Originally Posted by MementoMori

MY POINT: No religious/political body has the right to create, breed, or impose extremists on anyone else. If they do then they should be dealt with according to the LAW not according to THEIR RELIGION.

I don't care what your religious views are, or the morals attached to them, if you start threatening others with violence or begin committing acts of terrorism towards others based on ANY agenda even religion you should be held accountable under the Court of Law and not given any leniency due to religious/political beliefs/views/agenda of any kind and this most certainly includes Islam...

Exactly!!! I agree entirely and that's basically what I meant in a post somewhere above.

Originally Posted by MementoMori

Edit: also, we all know the best way to solve a problem: Go to the root of it.
So the best way to solve the problem of extremists and religious radicals of Islam is to directly announce to the Islamic religion that America/Europe will NOT standby and allow them to call out to these extremist cells and request that they continue their work in their jihad. To tell them that we're not going to standby and allow them to impose on ANY part of our culture or freedoms. To tell them that they can keep their ways in their homeland and to stop trying to spread them BECAUSE WE DON'T WANT THEM. We don't believe in their beliefs, and our laws are NOT based on religious views. They're based on basic human rights and freedoms.

bold = I don't agree

Although I live in Germany and only spent a small fraction of my childhood in America, even I know that America is the melting pot of cultures. What you have today is as a result of the combination of all kinds of cultures working together. Nobody can impose anything. Jefferson himself kept a copy of the translation of the Quran in his personal library. You don't want them. They have every right to spread what they hold to be true and if others decide to convert, tough luck for you. You can't really do anything against the fundamental right people have to chose to believe whatever they wish. If they chose to bomb your home and repopulate, you have every right to defence, but the majority of American Muslims simply want to live a life in peace and symbiosis.

Originally Posted by Thatperson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-3X5hIFXYU

When they talk about belgium they mean Brussels. The video predicts a european muslim population of 104 million (from 52 million in 2008) by 2028. That estimate is so conservative it's ridiculous. if Turkey joins the EU in 2015, it will probably rise by an extra 5-10 million in the year 2016 alone.

I was talking convert counts. I'll look around for some stats and edit this post. Btw, I personally hope Turkey does not join the EU. Not because of the Muslims but because they will undoubtedly screw up our economy the way they are now.

Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming

Islam is not so bad, man. The VAST majority of these people stay in their little villages, grow their poppy, sell it, get old, and die. They just want to be left alone.

So, as a whole, I have absolutely no problem with Islam. They're really nice people with a great sense of humor. Im serious.

Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming

Here? In the part of Afghanistan I'm in? Absolutely. EVERYONE grows poppy. And good ole mary jane too.

pretty much what i was thinking.
you don't see every catholic dude banging little boys (...right?).

these people aren't very much different from you or me - they just inhabit a region with a different prevailing culture.
so i guess you have to be careful with mixing up 'islam' with 'muslim.'

in the university i went to in maryland there were lots of muslims. they were cool. they aren't fanatic and blind to logic. some of the girls are way hot, too (normally clothed as well). but here in california i really can't remember seeing even one "muslim looking" person. i mean, how many of you guys even know one muslim on a personal level? i wouldn't had i stayed in my home state my whole life, and i feel like Half/Dreaming may be the most qualified here to give an idea of what these people are like.

@paraknight: way to hold up man, most would've bombed out of a debate this long. I don't condemn the religion or the followers who don't uphold the jihad. I condemn the jihadists themselves and i definitely do not watch FoxNews lol.

I understand what america is, but it IS NOT a nation governed by religious texts, which is what these jihadists and extremists want. they want our laws and freedom to bend and wrap around they're Islamic views.

@cygnus: i agree on your statement about Half/Dreaming

Originally Posted by MementoMori

@paraknight: way to hold up man, most would've bombed out of a debate this long. I don't condemn the religion or the followers who don't uphold the jihad. I condemn the jihadists themselves and i definitely do not watch FoxNews lol.

I understand what america is, but it IS NOT a nation governed by religious texts, which is what these jihadists and extremists want. they want our laws and freedom to bend and wrap around they're Islamic views.

I have nothing to criticize there. Glad we brought this to a conclusion without starting to hurl insults or bashing each other based on spelling like most other internet debates. And finally I can go shower and maybe go lucid tonight.

My stance = neutral

Judaism also wants to conquer the world, it is called Zionism. They believe that Jews are the chosen ones.

Christianity also wants to conquer the world. I am sure you can find videos of crazy Christian preachers who yell that from their pulpits.

Communism wants to take over the world.

Hitler wanted to take over the World.

Napolean wanted to take over the World.

Genghis Khan wanted to take over the World.

Democracy wants to take over the world.

Science wants to take over the world.

Capitalism IS taking over the world.

Any belief system is dangerous!!!

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

Judaism also wants to conquer the world, it is called Zionism. They believe that Jews are the chosen ones.

Christianity also wants to conquer the world. I am sure you can find videos of crazy Christian preachers who yell that from their pulpits.

Communism wants to take over the world.

Hitler wanted to take over the World.

Napolean wanted to take over the World.

Genghis Khan wanted to take over the World.

Democracy wants to take over the world.

Science wants to take over the world.

Capitalism IS taking over the world.

Any belief system is dangerous!!!

Anarchy FTW!

http://www.gospelweb.net/CultureWar/...edvschrist.htm

Amongst some real research I've done.

Comparing Modern Christianity to Original Christianity or Modern Islam to Original Christianity is pointless, but if you compare Original Christianity to Original Islam you will find that common morals are slanted in favor of Islam, and in the modern day Christianity (even though such despicable people like the Westboro Church or outright horrendous "crusaders" or terrorists exist) tends to be more peaceful than Islam.

Excluding Africa, which has a whole mess of problems, when was the last time, and the number of casualties, a Christian terrorist attack or similar event happened in comparison to a Muslim event?

I really don't care what people want to believe in and practice, as long as it doesn't interfere with my life choices. That goes for any belief system no matter how irrelevent or absured I think it is.

My issue with religion arises when extremists try to force and/or threaten their beliefs on others. Thankfully fundamentalists of all religions are in the vast minority (at least where I live anyway).

You guys know that islamic extremism is a relatively new phenomenon, right?

And I'm sure you also know that Bagdad used to be the central place for
scientific research, academia and art. (Ever wondered, why we call it the
arabic numerals, algebra, etc and why two thirds of the stars have arabic
names?).

I have a lot of Muslim friends, and they are all very nice and reasonable people, so my only personal experience with Islam has been good.

Originally Posted by dajo

You guys know that islamic extremism is a relatively new phenomenon, right?

And I'm sure you also know that Bagdad used to be the central place for
scientific research, academia and art. (Ever wondered, why we call it the
arabic numerals, algebra, etc and why two thirds of the stars have arabic
names?).

I don't think anybody is saying they're genetically inferior.