Thread: America: Founded as Christian Nation?

"I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it." --- Benjamin Franklin, from "Articles of Belief and Acts of Religion", Nov. 20, 1728

"I wish it (Christianity) were more productive of good works ... I mean real good works ... not holy-day keeping, sermon-hearing ... or making long prayers, filled with flatteries and compliments despised by wise men, and much less capable of pleasing the Deity."--- Benjamin Franklin, Works, Vol. VII, p. 75

"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in the Pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution in the Romish Church, but practiced it upon the Puritans. They found it wrong in Bishops, but fell into the practice themselves both there (England) and in New England."--- Benjamin Franklin

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" --- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson

"The priesthood have, in all ancient nations, nearly monopolized learning. And ever since the Reformation, when or where has existed a Protestant or dissenting sect who would tolerate A FREE INQUIRY? The blackest billingsgate, the most ungentlemanly insolence, the most yahooish brutality, is patiently endured, countenanced, propagated, and applauded. But touch a solemn truth in collision with a dogma of a sect, though capable of the clearest proof, and you will find you have disturbed a nest, and the hornets will swarm about your eyes and hand, and fly into your face and eyes." --- John Adams, letter to John Taylor

"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches." --- Benjamin Franklin

The founding fathers were about as christian as I am. America was NOT founded as a Christian nation.

The United States IS a christian nation.
In god We Trust
One Nation; Under god...
Some of the more backwards states even have the 10 commandments in their courthouses.

It will be another century before reality overtakes superstition as dominate I think.

Well, yeah, it IS a christian nation now, but the question was if it was FOUNDED as a christian nation. I think the founding fathers would be ashamed of the present state of things, personally.

The funniest thing is that a lot of that god stuff wasn't added until later.

I have recently watched Glenn Beck and Sean Hannity (who has done it a bunch) argue on their shows that the U.S. was founded as a Christian nation, and their entire argument hinges on the fact that the Declaration of Independence says that the rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness were "endowed" by the "creator". They take those words and leap to the conclusion that Christianity is supposed to be all over the law. They are way off.

First of all, the "creator" is not said in there to be the God in Christianity or any other god. The Tao, nature, or the fundamental field of physics could be the creator as far as that vague word goes. Plus, saying that whatever the creator might be is the basis for our rights does not automatically imply that imposing the creator on the public should be in the laws themselves. So there is no real basis for the idea that the U.S. was founded as a Christian nation.

On top of that, the Constitution flat out forbids government sanctioned religion (as Xox quoted), at least on the federal level. Most importantly, the reason the U.S. was established in the first place was for people to GET AWAY FROM the imposition of Christianity by the monarchy of England. The founders did not believe the government has any business telling its people what religion to follow (and because of the "taxation without representation" of the British colonies in North America). That is why the country exists!

So no, emphatically no, the United States was not founded as a Christian nation. Christians today (not all) are trying to retroactively found the United States as a Christian nation. Fortunately, they are part of a dying religion that will soon be widely referred to as a mythology and will never get their way.

America was founded as a secular nation, but then everyone got together and decided it would be a Christian nation instead. Now, people are slowly beginning to wise up and turn America secular again.

The founding fathers were NOT Christian, and America is not based on Christian principles.

That isn't even a good reason to start with. You shouldn't be arguing based on what other people think, but on what you think.

And like others have said, the US is obviously not a theocracy. We don't have a single religious position inside the government itself, and its banned. The reason for the separation of church and state, is to specifically block the country from ever being a theocracy, and to stop church from having power over government.

I think it was, but I haven't read into it much, so I'm not sure.

Originally Posted by Xox

Separation of church and state - Jefferson, one of the most prominent founding fathers. As the first amendment clearly says:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.."

No where in the first amendment (or the rest of the constitution) does it explicitly say that there should be separation of the church and state. It was actually in a letter from Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist Association in Connecticut, in response to an earlier message.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state.

(I underlined where it appeared)

Back to the original subject. Even if it was founded as a Christian nation, it obviously shouldn't matter very much, nor be used as justification for anything.

I may do some more research later.

^the next step is to do the same with corporations.

The U.S. was obviously not founded as a Christian nation. It was founded on the basis of religious freedom. Not to mention the whole national religion part, being that it's forbidden in the constitution as has been mentioned already.

I found some other important Jefferson quotes.

I am for freedom of religion, & against all maneuvres to bring about a legal ascendancy of one sect over another.
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Elbridge Gerry, 1799

I never will, by any word or act, bow to the shrine of intolerance, or admit a right of inquiry into the religious opinions of others.
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Edward Dowse, April 19, 1803

Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one-half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth.
-- Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781-82

The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.
-- Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781-82


From the dissensions among Sects themselves arise necessarily a right of choosing and necessity of deliberating to which we will conform. But if we choose for ourselves, we must allow others to choose also, and so reciprocally, this establishes religious liberty.
-- Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Religion, 1776. Papers, 1:545

Among the most inestimable of our blessings is that ... of liberty to worship our Creator in the way we think most agreeable to His will; a liberty deemed in other countries incompatible with good government and yet proved by our experience to be its best support.
-- Thomas Jefferson, Reply to Baptist Address, 1807

http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/.../jefferson.htm


Apparently, George Washington was not even a Christian.

http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/...washington.htm

America is a Christian Nation and if you aren't Christian you aren't a true American. On our money it says that In GOd We Trust and that proves it. Everybody in America should go to church and should speak English! George Bush was a good Christian and he did what Jesus told him to do! Obama is the socialist commie antichrist! God bless America!!!

Originally Posted by spacechase0

I think it was, but I haven't read into it much, so I'm not sure.

No where in the first amendment (or the rest of the constitution) does it explicitly say that there should be separation of the church and state. It was actually in a letter from Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist Association in Connecticut, in response to an earlier message.

Aye, it was Jefferson who coined "wall of separation," but the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment pretty much states that America was never intended, never founded, as a Christian nation. Founders were pretty clear about that, really.

Back to the original subject. Even if it was founded as a Christian nation, it obviously shouldn't matter very much, nor be used as justification for anything.

Problem is, to many, it does matter and they do use it to justify their own positions. I kinda take issue with people making shit up and using that shit to try and justify themselves. It's mostly the screamers, the ranters, and the ravers that irritate me...the people who say that Atheists should be kicked out of America forever, and then cite the myth that somehow America was founded as a Christian nation to support their stance. That shit. Of course I'm not saying that all people who think America was originally founded as an xtian nation are radicals, but it is misinformation all the same, and perpetuating it certainly doesn't help.

I may do some more research later.

I hope you do.

I find it kind of ironic we put in god we trust on all our money. Since its true, that we are basically praying to god that our money keeps its value, instead of using sound economic practices.

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

America is a Christian Nation and if you aren't Christian you aren't a true American. On our money it says that In GOd We Trust and that proves it. Everybody in America should go to church and should speak English! George Bush was a good Christian and he did what Jesus told him to do! Obama is the socialist commie antichrist! God bless America!!!

I lold but in all seriousness you probably should learn english if you want to live here. I know of no country where I could go to live and then selfishly expect the majority of the population to learn my language instead of just me learning theirs.

edit: on topic, no we werent founded as a christian nation, many of our founding fathers were actually deists or agnostic.

The whole world should learn English!

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

The founding fathers were NOT Christian, and America is not based on Christian principles.

No, SOME of the founding fathers were not christians. Most of them were, however they all supported a tolerance of other beliefs, it's the reason for freedom of religion part of the first amendment.

Except that many of the colonial towns enforced sabbatical laws and many other laws were based on Christain morals. But a lot of that was just transferred over from Britain, I think. The original settlers contained some Christains but a number of ruffians as well. I would argue there is truth in both stances. Neither side is necessarily rewriting history. Depending on your point of view, America did or did not start as a Christain country.

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

The whole world should learn English!

amen to that

How has this thread gotten this far without a mention of Freemasonry

Originally Posted by Quigin

How has this thread gotten this far without a mention of Freemasonry

Oh, good grief. If it comes up I am so out of here.

Originally Posted by Quigin

How has this thread gotten this far without a mention of Freemasonry

I was just going to mention it! But you beat me to it! Thank you.

Why do the Freemasons matter? The masons are neither atheist or religious, discussion of religion is strictly banned in mason lodges. I tend to start locking threads and banning people for paranoid ramblings about illuminati and world domination.

Originally Posted by ninja9578

Why do the Freemasons matter? The masons are neither atheist or religious, discussion of religion is strictly banned in mason lodges.

I think that WAS the point, though. Many of the Founders were Freemasons, and kinda puts any remaining nails in the coffin of the argument that the Founders were diehard Christians that intended America to be a Christian nation.