Thread: Published in Nature Neuroscience: 77% induction rate with electrodes on the scalp at 40 Hertz

Originally Posted by SearcherTMR

Hi everyone!
I guess that most people reading this thread are searching for an easy method for on-demand lucid dreams - instead of trying for weeks or months for one. That was the case for me - and that's why I build the tACS device - but not anymore! I have found a technique - a DEILD subtype that gives me a lucid at every attempt - up to now, 4 proper attempts, 4 lucids!
So, I am off this thread for now - I will be just watching - and wish good luck to anyone trying!

Agreed

I've managed to have two or maybe three lucid dreams in single day when i successfully applied Phase Technique week or was it two ago.
And now that holidays start i'il have more time to practice it

2 experiments with tACS 40 Hz
1) when last 4 hours of sleep (wbtb)
what : electrode cross section 50 mm position Fpz/d .. duration cue 10s ...Iac = 60 uA if novadream detects REM
results : 1 poor Lucid dream duration two seconds...

2) "inverse experiment" : continu stimulation until REM sleep
when last 4 hours of sleep ( wbtb)
what : electrode cross section 50 mm position Fpz/d Iac = 60 uA
results : none

Hey,

ive got a question: I think you know what a dream machine is: Its a stroboscope that flickers at a certain frequency. You can see this flicker through closed eyes. When you have a possibility to start the scroboscope when you are in REM sleep and it flickers at 40 Hz, could it induce a lucid dream?

When it works i maybe have an idea for a VR-App for GearVR which induces lucid dreams.

I have an electronic machine (protheus) with a pair of glasses and a set of Leds for each eye that flickers at different frequences.
But it can't reach the 40Htz, and if it could, I guess you wouldn't see anything because of the retinal persistense.
That's why movies are configured in 24 frames/sec .

Lightened Dream has a WILD Inducer under the tools menu that flashes the screen. If you set it to 25 milliseconds, it will try to flash the screen at 40 Hz. Whether the processor and hardware can keep up and, as Kaan mentioned - whether the retina can convert it to action potentials fast enough is another issue. Definitely worth a shot during WBTB.

I could also update the Screen LED plug-out for Lucid Scribe to start flashing the monitor at 40 Hz when REM is detected if anyone is interested in running some tests.

Originally Posted by IAmCoder

Lightened Dream has a WILD Inducer under the tools menu that flashes the screen. If you set it to 25 milliseconds, it will try to flash the screen at 40 Hz. Whether the processor and hardware can keep up and, as Kaan mentioned - whether the retina can convert it to action potentials fast enough is another issue. Definitely worth a shot during WBTB.

I could also update the Screen LED plug-out for Lucid Scribe to start flashing the monitor at 40 Hz when REM is detected if anyone is interested in running some tests.

Are you saying there's a possibility it will fry my laptop?

Originally Posted by Whatsnext

I can try setting my LD glasses to 40 Hz. It's 1 Hz now

Elite. Pro tip: unhinge the frames from your shades and fit the glasses into a headband for a more comfortable fit...

That gives me an idea for a Ganzfeld generator app... that just flashes the screen with a configurable color (default red) at a configurable frequency, perhaps with some noise in the background. Then just wrap the phone in a white sock around your head to generate ein Feld!

Originally Posted by Ctharlhie

Are you saying there's a possibility it will fry my laptop?

No, unless you leave it on all night... that can't be good for the screen. Much more likely that it will drop a few frames and not run at 40 Hz.

Originally Posted by IAmCoder

No, unless you leave it on all night... that can't be good for the screen. Much more likely that it will drop a few frames and not run at 40 Hz.

But it would still be effective as an anchor if the frame rate dropped?

I can try setting my LD glasses to 40 Hz. It's 1 Hz now

Lucid dreams and metacognition: Awareness of thinking; awareness of dreaming -- ScienceDaily
Research | Research news | 2015 | Lucid dreams and metacognition: Awareness of thinking - awareness of dreaming

some news...was out of action these few months

I kind of stopped after getting a long run of success , the novelty wore off and got busy with other down-to-earth stuff like making a living etc.

But glad to be back with some experiences to share...it seems like the thread got alive just after I left off

1. It helps greatly to map out the sleep patterns over a period of time and check which periods in the night you are most likely to hit REM sleep. For me it was around 4am for most nights. A good tool that helped me gain insight into sleep patterns is zeo and basis. Comparing the two results also helped pinpoint the time slot most likely success to hit REM sleep. Get to know your body sleep rhythms.

2. It was difficult to get any sleep with the electrodes on all through the night, so for me what worked was : Set the alarm for 4am and pop Vit B complex and choline before going to sleep, wake up at 4am, pop a Galantamind (initially, although I stopped it after getting the hang of it), stick on the electrodes, turn on the device put on the eye-mask and use the WBTB method. A few minutes later uopn REM detection the arduino triggers the 40Hz to F3/F4 and a bluetooth speaker under the pillow outputs a steady 40Hz sine isochronous hum.

3.The first time I hit lucidity, in the dream it was a shopping mall with lots of people and caught my reflection in a mirror and saw I had the eyemask on and realized it must be dream since it is not possible to see through an eyemask, although all the people around seemed very real and was not walking but on an escalater of some kind...another time had shopped for something from ebay in Hongkong and in the dream was strolling down kowloon street and realised it must be dream. The key trigger seems to be to be the ability to realize that you are in a dream.

4. the tacs was set in a continuous mode, 1 min on and 2 minute off cycles with a time delay since the 40Hz signal seriously messes up the Zeo EEG signal

Thanks

^^ B complex and choline and galantamind….and success for lucids is attributed to the device? Aren't there way too many variables in that mix to make any valid conclusions?

What was the track record of the device isolated from any interfering factors, e.g., your baseline LD frequency doing everything identically (same wakings, intention, etc.), with the only difference being the presence or absence of the device?

Yes it is true what you say about the interfering factors or is it a combination of all? Whatever works

But it is a scaffolding to help get you started, once you start becoming aware in your dreams you kind of don't need them anymore

Originally Posted by jeffg

Yes it is true what you say about the interfering factors or is it a combination of all? Whatever works

But it is a scaffolding to help get you started, once you start becoming aware in your dreams you kind of don't need them anymore

Uh, no, there's a reason they're known as supplements. Get to know your LD baseline through working on the fundamentals. Sorry to be harsh but I won't trust any trialling of magnetic stimulation when galantamine is an extraneous variable.

Maybe it was galantamine that triggered it, or tacs, I don't know for sure but I stopped galantamine soon since wasn't sure about supplements use long term.
then used tacs for a while and stopped that as well coz once you get the hang of it you don't need anything, you somehow learn to be aware during dreams without crutches, something like learning to ride a bike without the training wheels. Like one time dreamt about a community working together, poor but helped each other and it was fun interacting with them with a degree of control over who you spoke with and what you did together with them.....

Hi Jeff!
Glad we have you back in the conversation, since it was your success that motivated us all to build the devices.
Thanks for the extra info, as well as the details you pm me ( basically what you shared here, plus that the subjective intensity of the stimulation was barely noticeable and that your success was with sinus and not square waveforms).
Nevertheless, as FryingMan said, it is not clear whether your success was due to tACS or the supplements or part of it was your normal achievement.

Originally Posted by jeffg

3.The first time I hit lucidity...

So, was this your first lucid ever - no lucids before using galantamine and the device?
If not, what was your previous success rate?
Also, after ceasing using the device, did you still have lucids and how often?Because what you say about learning once and then becoming natural is certainly not true for everyone...

Thanks for kind words, SearcherTMR, it was never my intention to motivate or mislead people into building tACs devices or start a career as a tACs salesman. 40Hz symmetrical square wave is a good approximation to the sine wave, instead of the asymmetrical pulse wave, in fact I think some kind of 40Hz excitation to the pre frontal cortex during REM should work.

guess what I was trying to say is this will not happen overnight, and takes patience (at least 2-3 months), hits and misses, practice and real desire to LD. It is important to pinpoint when you hit REM sleep and unless you know this accurately it is just trial and error. If anything it helps you become more aware of the body rythms, REM sleep patterns and give a better control of your mind.

It started off as a fun experiment for me and did try all kinds of techniques, supplements tACs, binauaral, Remy etc in my search for LD. but what worked first was tACs, so whatever combo helps improve your chances , why not? It seems like just another acquired ability like playing the guitar or learning kung-fu. Then after a while it makes you wonder what it is that achieving lucidity does? Entertainment, escape from reality...what is the purpose? I do admit it is fun though to indulge in this form of entertainment if you willing to spend the time and effort

No one's saying you're trying to mislead. It's just that as far as I understand it, we can't conclude anything about the effectiveness of tACS until it's isolated from confounding factors.

I started to use galantamine with some WILD/DEIL/Raduga's techniques.
this night was my 9th attempt and it was my 7th success (with my very first complete OBE experience).
For my last attempt I used my RemDreamer to help me coming back to the Raduga's way of doing this, but anyway.

I would go the same way than the last comments, Galantamine sound's like much more effective than tACs, but what I would like to understand is what SearcherTMR pointed out :you claimed 100% success few months ago with tACs, and you are saying , if I well understand, that it is the first time you hit lucidity.
Could you clarify this point please?

The problems with galantamine (or at least Galantamind) is that many people (me included) have trouble getting back to sleep on it. If you can get back to sleep, the dreams G+Choline give are mind-blowing. But that's a big "if" at least for me. Anything that give a similar result without the downsides (having to wait 3-4 days between attempts, also) would be very welcome.

Originally Posted by FryingMan

The problems with galantamine (or at least Galantamind) is that many people (me included) have trouble getting back to sleep on it. If you can get back to sleep, the dreams G+Choline give are mind-blowing. But that's a big "if" at least for me. Anything that give a similar result without the downsides (having to wait 3-4 days between attempts, also) would be very welcome.

I also experiment this difficulty to fall back to sleep, but I suspect the norepinephrin produced by anticipation/ self pressure being half of the insomnia origin .
To Avoid that, or at least to reduce the time to fall back to sleep, I imagined a protocol that I first tested this night (partially explained HERE ) and that is derived from the Raduga's technique : After having slept about 5 hours, I WBTB and take LD pills, but I do not try to WILD after the intake of Galantamine, I just try to sleep without trying anything. the galantamine is not supposed to alter your capacity to fall asleep as soon as you take it, so if you don't put too much pressure to yourself, you won't produce the NE that prevent you from falling back to sleep. What I did is that I put my Rem-Dreamer on, and I program it to start tracking REM only when Galantamine will start to be effective, so My device will start to wake me up only about one hour after my WBTB (Galantamine takes about one hour to reach his peak plasma and to start to kick in) , and only when I will be on REM stage.
Then, I can take off the Rem-Dreamer and try to WILD, taking profit of the Pro-REM action of the Galantamine and his ability to suppress Rem Barriers.
That 's what I did this night and it worked very well.
You can do it without RemDreamer if you trust your ability to wake up about one hour after the intake of Galantamine, in the beginning of a Rem Period, but a REM detection device increase your odds to wake up at the best moment to try a WILD;

Edit : to be able to use Galantamine without waiting 5 days between each attempt, but rather about every other day, I just started to use Piracetam just after a LD attempt.
I'll see if I can reach 2 to 3 attempts a week this way.

Originally Posted by jeffg

...it was never my intention to motivate or mislead people into building tACs devices ...

As FryingMan said, no one accused you - inspiring someone is not a bad thing at all. It would be better though, if you had mentioned galantamine in your first posts - so your success would not be attributed to tACS alone.
On the other hand, as Kaan said, we are still trying to figure out how exactly tACS contributed to your results.
So, from what you said up to now, after trying various techniques, you achieved lucidity for the first time with a combo of galantamine+tACS, then went on to have about 7 lucids every 10 attempts with this combo, then discontinued galantamine and reached a 100% rate of lucidity (is that correct?) using only tACS, and then you stopped trying and never had a lucid again as you concentrated on your daily stuff.
Is that about correct? If so, tACS might have actually been quite effective in your case...

Originally Posted by SearcherTMR

you achieved lucidity for the first time with a combo of galantamine+tACS, then went on to have about 7 lucids every 10 attempts with this combo, then discontinued galantamine and reached a 100% rate of lucidity (is that correct?) using only tACS, and then you stopped trying and never had a lucid again as you concentrated on your daily stuff.
Is that about correct? If so, tACS might have actually been quite effective in your case...

Yes, you have summarized it very well except about never had lucid again. Now when I am in REM dream I am somehow able to recognize its a dream and turn it into a lucid one. Not all the time but with intention and will...it is all about using the tACs power of association during REM and awaken the ability to recognize when you are in REM
Attached image shows a typical REM tACs activation cycleSleep pattern.jpg

I almost never try to WILD on galantamine. I wake up (sometimes with alarm since I tried to take it earlier and earlier in the hope that I'd be more tired), pop the capsules, and immediately aim directly for sleep, hoping for a DILD, and many times it's worked out well. But many times it hasn't.

I in general don't like the idea of supplements beyond just vitamins, so I don't want to be taking piracetam: drugs to get you "high" on LDing, then drugs to get you down….don't really like that idea.

WBTB @ 5 hours even with no supplements at all can result in insomnia for me, so that's just my special challenge I guess. But on galantamind (which has B5 in it, supposedly which causes insomnia), I'm wired wide awake, even when trying to aim directly for sleep and DILDs. I do hope to get some galantamine without anything else in it to give it a try and see if it's any better.

^^ Ok, I am good with this info Jeff. Seems after all that you are almost a natural in LD.
You just never seriously attempted before, then galantamine and tACS got you going, and now you are off without crutches. Good for you - although I am not sure how helpful tACS can be for the rest of us. Perhaps as you suggested, many trials are needed to get benefit from it - most likely I will give this another try in the near future using your parameters.
Thanks anyway for the clarifications!