Thread: Published in Nature Neuroscience: 77% induction rate with electrodes on the scalp at 40 Hertz

Hi Highlander..
of course battery pack's are more safe than a power module... feel free to switch to battery pack's...
but battery pack's are a "pain in the xxx'... so i dislike them

if you interrupt one cable of the electrode ...you have no "cue"

i measure the Ici with a HP3457A( 20 year's old) = 12uA ( C=1uF R=180K)

kind regards

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hi ATA, i can combine the three electrode's from 1 pad to "one"... i shall try it
kind regards

Its still be very small surface area , smaller electrodes need higher current density to achive same current density at cortex level . Like i write also we dount know what target pick one of possible ones are F3,F4,orbitofrntal cortex, temporal cortex,some onother areas of prefrontal cotex.Also depent of angle of current to neurones and many other factors.

my old notes abou tDCS for tACS values will be different but basic principe is the same
http://brmlab.cz/_media/project/brai...x_-_simple.odt

Shunting
Large part of current is shunted by skin and also by lower level by skull and CSF. The ammount of current reaching cortex is depend of current density on electrodes its sizes and placements nad also of skin a skull thickenes. Current models dount count with skull anisotropy of conductivnes becouse is very hard get data for this model by MRI (it posible use CT). * individual male scalp and skull thickness variation, which can be as high as 58% and 34% of the average, resulted in up to 76% and 20% changes of the peak brain E-field, respectively


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Basic rules (for orintational values look to studies)

smaller electrode have = more shunting
electrode close together = more shunting

From one test: Electrode density in the cortex, i try to count difference of current density with this configuration nad standart 35cm2 pads (its only orientational) EKG electrode 3,14cm2 ,1mA , 318uA/cm2 ,+ on L-DLPFC and - on FT10 (left temporal below the hairline)

Role of size

normal 8,7uA/cm2
HD 21,5uA/cm2

Inresiting is current desity on electrode is be 11,21x higher but current density on top of the cortex only 2,47x This also means the current density is be the same like in 2,5mA with standart 35cm2 pads.

The accuracy of these data is limited by several assumptions that were built into the model, such as the layered spherical geometry and the conductivity values used. However, since we are only calculating ratios (e.g., by what factor should the current be reduced when the electrode area is halved) as opposed to absolute values (e.g., what is the current density value at the target point), the results should not depend too strongly on those assumptions

Shunting

only a very rude aproximation
normal 8-9 uA/cm2 max
HD 12-13uA/cm2 max

If we consider size and shunting effect the current density will be only 1,5 higher than in standart 1mA/35cm2

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Here some data for tACS
Theoretical investigation of transcranial alternating current stimulation using laminar model. - ResearchGate

@ poolster

Referring to your recent schematic:

I would have thought that the design would be a more efficient one if you utilised the -15v rail on the 8038 to take advantage of the - part of the square wave output to be true tACS (AC) rather than the 0v (?) currently used.

Thanks for the current data BTW.

Hey guys I just got my Arduino Due in the mail. We couldn't get a clean enough sine wave with the Arduino Uno. Next up is purchasing electrodes. There seems to be a lot of discussion here regarding electrodes. I want to buy the right thing so suggestions?

Adhesive TENS type circular with surface area from 4 to 16cm2 . For now is impossible to say if it be better use larger or smaller ones.

Originally Posted by poolster

for the interface with the novadreamer :
remove LED from NOVAdreamer board .....
Now it is time to play....

Hi poolster!
Thanks for sharing you setup and ideas.
Unfortunately, your setup is way too complicated for my knowledge - and spare time - so, I can't try building one. But it's nice to see your little device and I hope you will also post your results here for all to read!

P.s. I am currently testing a new technique (a DEILD subtype) that needs almost no preparation, little loss of sleep and had good success rate with it, up to now.

sofar , 3 experiments with tACS 40Hz/REM sleep :
1) when : first 4 hours of sleep
what : electrode Ag /AgCl gel EMG cross section 10 mm.. position Fpz/Fp1... duration 180s ... Iac = 136 uA
result : No lucidity .... very uncomfortable ... to much Iac

2 ) when : last 4 hours of sleep ( wbtb)
what : electrode Ag /AgCl gel EMG cross section 10 mm.. position Fpz/Fp1... duration 10s... Iac = 40 uA
result : No lucidity.... good dream recall

3 when last 4 hours of sleep ( wbtb)
what : electrode TMS cross section 50 mm position Fpz /c.. duration 10s... Iac =60 uA
result : No lucidity... good dream recall

Next time : WBTB ...TMS electrode on position Fpz/d.. duration 10s... Iac = 60uA

Hi everyone!
I guess that most people reading this thread are searching for an easy method for on-demand lucid dreams - instead of trying for weeks or months for one. That was the case for me - and that's why I build the tACS device - but not anymore! I have found a technique - a DEILD subtype that gives me a lucid at every attempt - up to now, 4 proper attempts, 4 lucids!
So, I am off this thread for now - I will be just watching - and wish good luck to anyone trying!

Originally Posted by SearcherTMR

Hi everyone!
I guess that most people reading this thread are searching for an easy method for on-demand lucid dreams - instead of trying for weeks or months for one. That was the case for me - and that's why I build the tACS device - but not anymore! I have found a technique - a DEILD subtype that gives me a lucid at every attempt - up to now, 4 proper attempts, 4 lucids!
So, I am off this thread for now - I will be just watching - and wish good luck to anyone trying!

Agreed

I've managed to have two or maybe three lucid dreams in single day when i successfully applied Phase Technique week or was it two ago.
And now that holidays start i'il have more time to practice it

2 experiments with tACS 40 Hz
1) when last 4 hours of sleep (wbtb)
what : electrode cross section 50 mm position Fpz/d .. duration cue 10s ...Iac = 60 uA if novadream detects REM
results : 1 poor Lucid dream duration two seconds...

2) "inverse experiment" : continu stimulation until REM sleep
when last 4 hours of sleep ( wbtb)
what : electrode cross section 50 mm position Fpz/d Iac = 60 uA
results : none

Hey,

ive got a question: I think you know what a dream machine is: Its a stroboscope that flickers at a certain frequency. You can see this flicker through closed eyes. When you have a possibility to start the scroboscope when you are in REM sleep and it flickers at 40 Hz, could it induce a lucid dream?

When it works i maybe have an idea for a VR-App for GearVR which induces lucid dreams.

I have an electronic machine (protheus) with a pair of glasses and a set of Leds for each eye that flickers at different frequences.
But it can't reach the 40Htz, and if it could, I guess you wouldn't see anything because of the retinal persistense.
That's why movies are configured in 24 frames/sec .

Lightened Dream has a WILD Inducer under the tools menu that flashes the screen. If you set it to 25 milliseconds, it will try to flash the screen at 40 Hz. Whether the processor and hardware can keep up and, as Kaan mentioned - whether the retina can convert it to action potentials fast enough is another issue. Definitely worth a shot during WBTB.

I could also update the Screen LED plug-out for Lucid Scribe to start flashing the monitor at 40 Hz when REM is detected if anyone is interested in running some tests.

I can try setting my LD glasses to 40 Hz. It's 1 Hz now

Originally Posted by IAmCoder

Lightened Dream has a WILD Inducer under the tools menu that flashes the screen. If you set it to 25 milliseconds, it will try to flash the screen at 40 Hz. Whether the processor and hardware can keep up and, as Kaan mentioned - whether the retina can convert it to action potentials fast enough is another issue. Definitely worth a shot during WBTB.

I could also update the Screen LED plug-out for Lucid Scribe to start flashing the monitor at 40 Hz when REM is detected if anyone is interested in running some tests.

Are you saying there's a possibility it will fry my laptop?

Originally Posted by Whatsnext

I can try setting my LD glasses to 40 Hz. It's 1 Hz now

Elite. Pro tip: unhinge the frames from your shades and fit the glasses into a headband for a more comfortable fit...

That gives me an idea for a Ganzfeld generator app... that just flashes the screen with a configurable color (default red) at a configurable frequency, perhaps with some noise in the background. Then just wrap the phone in a white sock around your head to generate ein Feld!

Originally Posted by Ctharlhie

Are you saying there's a possibility it will fry my laptop?

No, unless you leave it on all night... that can't be good for the screen. Much more likely that it will drop a few frames and not run at 40 Hz.

Originally Posted by IAmCoder

No, unless you leave it on all night... that can't be good for the screen. Much more likely that it will drop a few frames and not run at 40 Hz.

But it would still be effective as an anchor if the frame rate dropped?

Lucid dreams and metacognition: Awareness of thinking; awareness of dreaming -- ScienceDaily
Research | Research news | 2015 | Lucid dreams and metacognition: Awareness of thinking - awareness of dreaming

some news...was out of action these few months

I kind of stopped after getting a long run of success , the novelty wore off and got busy with other down-to-earth stuff like making a living etc.

But glad to be back with some experiences to share...it seems like the thread got alive just after I left off

1. It helps greatly to map out the sleep patterns over a period of time and check which periods in the night you are most likely to hit REM sleep. For me it was around 4am for most nights. A good tool that helped me gain insight into sleep patterns is zeo and basis. Comparing the two results also helped pinpoint the time slot most likely success to hit REM sleep. Get to know your body sleep rhythms.

2. It was difficult to get any sleep with the electrodes on all through the night, so for me what worked was : Set the alarm for 4am and pop Vit B complex and choline before going to sleep, wake up at 4am, pop a Galantamind (initially, although I stopped it after getting the hang of it), stick on the electrodes, turn on the device put on the eye-mask and use the WBTB method. A few minutes later uopn REM detection the arduino triggers the 40Hz to F3/F4 and a bluetooth speaker under the pillow outputs a steady 40Hz sine isochronous hum.

3.The first time I hit lucidity, in the dream it was a shopping mall with lots of people and caught my reflection in a mirror and saw I had the eyemask on and realized it must be dream since it is not possible to see through an eyemask, although all the people around seemed very real and was not walking but on an escalater of some kind...another time had shopped for something from ebay in Hongkong and in the dream was strolling down kowloon street and realised it must be dream. The key trigger seems to be to be the ability to realize that you are in a dream.

4. the tacs was set in a continuous mode, 1 min on and 2 minute off cycles with a time delay since the 40Hz signal seriously messes up the Zeo EEG signal

Thanks

^^ B complex and choline and galantamind….and success for lucids is attributed to the device? Aren't there way too many variables in that mix to make any valid conclusions?

What was the track record of the device isolated from any interfering factors, e.g., your baseline LD frequency doing everything identically (same wakings, intention, etc.), with the only difference being the presence or absence of the device?

Yes it is true what you say about the interfering factors or is it a combination of all? Whatever works

But it is a scaffolding to help get you started, once you start becoming aware in your dreams you kind of don't need them anymore

Originally Posted by jeffg

Yes it is true what you say about the interfering factors or is it a combination of all? Whatever works

But it is a scaffolding to help get you started, once you start becoming aware in your dreams you kind of don't need them anymore

Uh, no, there's a reason they're known as supplements. Get to know your LD baseline through working on the fundamentals. Sorry to be harsh but I won't trust any trialling of magnetic stimulation when galantamine is an extraneous variable.

Maybe it was galantamine that triggered it, or tacs, I don't know for sure but I stopped galantamine soon since wasn't sure about supplements use long term.
then used tacs for a while and stopped that as well coz once you get the hang of it you don't need anything, you somehow learn to be aware during dreams without crutches, something like learning to ride a bike without the training wheels. Like one time dreamt about a community working together, poor but helped each other and it was fun interacting with them with a degree of control over who you spoke with and what you did together with them.....

Hi Jeff!
Glad we have you back in the conversation, since it was your success that motivated us all to build the devices.
Thanks for the extra info, as well as the details you pm me ( basically what you shared here, plus that the subjective intensity of the stimulation was barely noticeable and that your success was with sinus and not square waveforms).
Nevertheless, as FryingMan said, it is not clear whether your success was due to tACS or the supplements or part of it was your normal achievement.

Originally Posted by jeffg

3.The first time I hit lucidity...

So, was this your first lucid ever - no lucids before using galantamine and the device?
If not, what was your previous success rate?
Also, after ceasing using the device, did you still have lucids and how often?Because what you say about learning once and then becoming natural is certainly not true for everyone...