A Quick WILD - WBTB method question

[Superadam051]

I'm beginning to notice that I wake up now in the morning at around 5:30 am. In fact for th past 4-5 days that's been pretty accurate. I was wondering as I've always been unclear on timing I'm asking for advice into what time i should go back to bed?, should I wake up before 5:30am and perform WBTB for 5:30am? Should I wait for a period of time after 5:30am? Any answers would be appreciated. Thanks

[Draco77100]

The answer is simple: experiment. It may be good for you wake up earlier than 5:30, at that time, or a little after, or at an entirely different time. Even if waking up before works for me, it may not work for you. Take some time and find what works best for you. Sorry, this probably wasn't the answer you were hoping for.

[Superadam051]

Hey, no worried I said any answers are appreciated. Thank you. I guess experimenting would be a good approach but the way I meant the question was in a general sense, if you get what I mean. About REM sleep and stuff. I don't fully understand the induction technique. Do you make a time for yourself (So you can induce lucid dreaming (in theory)) at any time of your choosing or is it only possible when passing a threshold (which is a thought about your 'internal clock') if sleeping patterns are related to successful LDs then what is the link? I was wondering if a more successful attempt of mine would be to time it so I could induce a LD at 5:30-ish, before or even after and how it relates to sleeping patterns. If I woke up at 5:30 are my chances more likely to become lucid in a period just before 5:30 or a period after. The entire topic is far from clear to me and I wish to know more on the topic.

[Draco77100]

I didn't get that before, my bad. Oh dear. I'm definitely not the best person to ask about all of that! Here's what I do know: your REM cycles are initially very short. The longer you sleep, the longer the REM cycles become. And the longer the REM cycles are the more aware you will be near the end, increasing your chances of a lucid dream. I also know that if you can wake yourself up (by alarm) in the middle of a REM period, you will remember the dreams much better than normal. That's all great, but I'm not sure exactly what you can do for a WILD. Whenever I WILD, I do a WBTB four and a half hours after I fall asleep. That's when I've found the most success. But to be truthful, I cannot tell you what would be best in your situation. I'm not sure, and am very curious now to find out as well. In answer to one of your questions, I believe that you can pick anytime to LD. But timing definitely does play a part. Sorry I don't have more answers

[gab]

If you have slept for long enough, almost all your sleep is in REM. There is only very short NREM. So it doesn't really matter what time it is, as long as you had enough sleep. So when you WILD, you go through just a short NREM and then you are in REM, which is prime spot to be for a WILD. It doesn't really matter if you woke up before, during or after REM, as long as you had enough sleep to go almost straight to REM. That's why naps are good time to WILD. If it's not too long after you woke up, you go straight to REM (very short NREM). Is this what you were asking? *Moved to WILD

[Superadam051]

So after a time when your sleep turns to mostly REM sleep you can willingly (With practice etc.) hop into a LD by WILD'ing (potentially) at any time, does it have to have a certain prerequisite like a certain amount of REM cycles or just a rough average hours of sleep. How long roughly does this period of time when you can return to REM sleep last? As an estimate; 20 minutes?, an hour? less? Or is that part essentially a WBTB method. What i'm most interested in though is what makes waking up at 5:30am (which has happened naturally in repetition thus marking the end of a sleep/REM cycle (Is that accurate?)) different from waking up at 5am and WILD'ing for 5:30am. What special mark does waking up at 5:30 have, if any, and how does it play a role in the ability to produce a LD. I guess the question is more orientated about sleep cycles and their roles?

[Serclfs]

I've also wondered about this...I was never quite sure if I should interrupt a sleep cycle right before rem and then try to WILD. or to wake at the end of a cycle and WILD. I'm not sure if interrupting your sleep lets say right before rem would reset the whole cycle when returning to bed, or make it more probable to jump right into rem while trying to WILD.

[Superadam051]

How do you mean "right before REM" and " interrupting your sleep let's say right before REM". You say it as if they are fixed points of sleep

[Serclfs]

I was under the impression that you progress through the stages of sleep in order, rem being the last. I could be wrong but my question was if it is better to wake up during a sleep cycle (with an alarm) or after a sleep cycle (natural awakening). If it was possible to predict the time you enter rem during the night, would it be best to wake up 10 minutes prior to this and continue? And would that mean your body would pick up where it left off and enter rem directly?

[Superadam051]

Ah, i get you now and agree with your question

[gab]

I used to think, that if you wake up at the beginning/middle of REM, you go back to REM when you fall asleep. But I no longer think that's true. I believe, that no matter when in your sleep cycle you wake up, you always start to fall asleep with NREM. The only difference is, how long this NREM is. At the beginning of your night/sleep, NREM can be as long as 80 min and REM only 10 min, so together they make an average 90 min sleep cycle. But as you sleep, NREM gets shorter and REM longer. So after maybe 7-8 hours (not sure on this one), your sleep is almost only REM, (80 min REM and 10 min NREM), with a very short NREM. This is important for a WILD attempt, when you have to stay concious during NREM until you reach dream in REM. So obviously, the shorter the NREM, the easier is to make it through to REM. REM in naps - people do report having success with WILD (going straight to REM) even in the afternoon naps. I did have maybe one or two WILDs in afternoon naps (4-5pm, with 8-10am waking time). But my best success was within 1-3 hours of waking up. I guess it could be individual. But the basis is, that during a nap, our body knows that it's extra sleep, it doesn't have to do any deep sleep to regenerate and heal, so it does REM sleep. But if you nap close to your normal bed time, it could take it as normal sleep and it goes through sleep cycles with NREM and REM. One of our members made a great post about this, maybe he'll stop by, because I can't find that post to link it. Anyway, this is how I see it, correct me, if I'm wrong.

[Superadam051]

I used to think, that if you wake up at the beginning/middle of REM, you go back to REM when you fall asleep. But I no longer think that's true. I believe, that no matter when in your sleep cycle you wake up, you always start to fall asleep with NREM. The only difference is, how long this NREM is. At the beginning of your night/sleep, NREM can be as long as 80 min and REM only 10 min, so together they make an average 90 min sleep cycle. But as you sleep, NREM gets shorter and REM longer. So after maybe 7-8 hours (not sure on this one), your sleep is almost only REM, (80 min REM and 10 min NREM), with a very short NREM. This is important for a WILD attempt, when you have to stay concious during NREM until you reach dream in REM. So obviously, the shorter the NREM, the easier is to make it through to REM. But the basis is, that during a nap, our body knows that it's extra sleep, it doesn't have to do any deep sleep to regenerate and heal, so it does REM sleep. But if you nap close to your normal bed time, it could take it as normal sleep and it goes through sleep cycles with NREM and REM. So how do I know that I'm going through NREM, if I am? Is this just normal sleep or do I have to be "aware". Are there any signs like HH and such? Hopefully I can try a nap later so that would be good. Thanks as wekk, aside from that part I'm asking now you've answered my question