Thread: Tell me about Pentecostal, and why people fall over in church!

well, Kinda but not really..
Its just the way all this was forced upon me.
But IDK.
Ill reasearch it some more.

Originally Posted by magical mike

But I dont know, I really dont wana go to hell.
Its not a big deal if I believe in it anyways right? I mean, theres nothing else that could go wrong if what I believe in is real when its not.

The thing is there are as many religions as there are people. For example: what if the Muslim god exists? He'll send you to hell for worshiping the false Christian god.

You're never "safe" from eternal damnation, there'll always be thousands of beliefs saying you'll get hell.

Originally Posted by Jeff777

Everyone (yes, everyone...even you atheists) have an inner desire to know where we came from and meet our maker.

What's the big revelation here? With Atheists being those that don't settle for faith and are usually people of science, it's expected for them to be very curious about the Universe.

Originally Posted by Scatterbrain

The thing is there are as many religions as there are people. For example: what if the Muslim god exists? He'll send you to hell for worshiping the false Christian god.

You're never "safe" from eternal damnation, there'll always be thousands of beliefs saying you'll get hell.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by Scatterbrain

What's the big revelation here? With Atheists being those that don't settle for faith and are usually people of science, it's expected for them to be very curious about the Universe.

As we all are, religion exploits this inner desire to "know" and atheists (imo) believe there is no creator so they'll invent theories as to how the universe came into existence. As long as their research doesn't lead them to find the tiniest bit of evidence for a creator, they'll accept it. ie Multi-verse theory. There's no evidence of it whatsoever but for fear of admitting the annoying "we told you so" creationists right...they came up with that theory and it's now being accepted among scientists...without any proof of its existence...what...so...ever. In essence, they created a theory and chose to accept it without any evidence of it. Religion works on the same premise. And that's science bubba. If you are an atheist, that makes atheism your new religion, and a religion it is.

Take the cosmological constant for example, it's too finely tuned for even scientists and cosmologists alike to write off as accidental. No force in the history of cosmology has ever been discovered to be that finely tuned. The cosmological constant needs to be set to one part in a trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion...otherwise the universe would be so drastically different, it'd be impossible for us to evolve. Random chance of this occurring is out of the question. Physicists didn't like that this cosmological constant points to an intelligent creator (which it does)...therefore they thought up the multi-verse theory

Look, I don't believe the religious zealots are right...as I said earlier, I think that there MIGHT be an intelligent creator, I haven't ruled that out yet. However, I seriously doubt (as I mentioned earlier) organized religion "figured it out" as they claim to have. Perhaps the god theory is correct in saying the universe (pre-big bang) was comprised of infinite potential that needed to express itself through infinite experience therefore it chose to experience itself through life forms. I preach the gospel of I don't know and when I say I don't know...that means I don't know WHAT there is and I don't know what there isn't. Atheism preaches the gospel of "I know what isn't...but I'm still working on what is."

Originally Posted by Jeff777

As we all are, religion exploits this inner desire to "know" and atheists (imo) believe there is no creator so they'll invent theories as to how the universe came into existence. As long as their research doesn't lead them to find the tiniest bit of evidence for a creator, they'll accept it. ie Multi-verse theory. There's no evidence of it whatsoever but for fear of admitting the annoying "we told you so" creationists right...they came up with that theory and it's now being accepted among scientists...without any proof of its existence...what...so...ever. In essence, they created a theory and chose to accept it without any evidence of it. Religion works on the same premise. And that's science bubba. So welcome to the church of Atheism.

Take the cosmological constant for example, it's too finely tuned for even scientists and cosmologists alike to write off as accidental. No force in the history of cosmology has ever been discovered to be that finely tuned. The cosmological constant needs to be set to one part in a trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion...otherwise the universe would be so drastically different, it'd be impossible for us to evolve. Random chance of this occurring is out of the question. Physicists didn't want to entertain the idea that this cosmological constant points to an intelligent creator (which it does)...therefore you have the multi-verse theory

Look, I don't believe the religious zealots are right...as I said earlier, I think that there MIGHT be an intelligent creator, I haven't ruled that out yet. However, I seriously doubt (as I said above) organized religion "figured it out" as they claim to have. Perhaps the god theory is correct in saying the universe (pre-big bang) was infinite potential that needed to express itself through infinite experience therefore it chose to encapsulate itself into life. I preach the gospel of I don't know and when I say I don't know...that means I don't know WHAT there is and I don't know what there isn't. Atheism preaches the gospel of "I know what isn't...but I'm still working on what is".

That's not quite what Atheism is. I can't speak for all Atheists, but at least for me and every one I've met, Atheism is usually a rejection of the belief in god(s), but that doesn't mean there's a desire for the rejection. The belief in gods is not entertained because there's no trace of evidence to back it up, some gods are just plain silly and declared as non-existent right away (Christian god for example).

While god or anything of the sort hasn't been observed or even properly described, an idea like the multiverse is a smaller stretch because we already know at least 1 universe exists. Anyway, the existence of a multiverse isn't currently accepted by scientists, it's regarded as just an hypothesis. Beyond the Big Bang and our Universe we don't what there is.


I don't like the fine-tuning argument because not only it assumes the Universe could have been another way but it also assumes what may and what may not vary in the Universe.

The fact is we don't know why the Universe has the constants it has and the why of their magnitude. For what we know, assuming that current constants could have had different values is as valid as assuming that there could have been completely new constants, the possibilities are endless. For every imaginable Universe that doesn't support life there's another one that does.

What if there was proof? To settle it all? Like for example, there's proof (thanks to Newton) that if you walk off a 60 story building GRAVITY will have a final say so as to whether you walk into school or work the next day. F = GMm/R²

Remember, all this stuff (matter/energy) came from somewhere and that argument

"it was just a quantum flucuation 15 billion years ago creating something from nothing, BANG"

seems kind of unacceptable in many camps here in 2009. Of course there are also those that say, "stuff's ALWAYS been here" but then ..

the mind boggles.

Gosh, why cant there be just one FACT THAT EXPLAINS IT ALL!
No freaking guessing..

Originally Posted by magical mike

Gosh, why cant there be just one FACT THAT EXPLAINS IT ALL!
No freaking guessing..

Great point. It's a big universe and a big thing called life so I guess that's just the way it is. I'd not however base your beliefs and the rest of your life (and possibly beyond) upon something someone in a forum, me or anybody types. It's up to you to discover. Some will believe in the bible others the Koran others nothing because there seems to be arguments to support all sides on the surface.

From what I've learned though is if you really want the truth it'll find you. As far as Pentecost, according to the biblical book of Acts miraculous events occurred that day. If you believe there's the slightest chance that any of that "bible stuff" might be true you might want to study the topic a bit further.
If not then no need.

Studing..
I hope I will find the truth one day.

No offence to the believers...

I had no religious guidance when I was growing up, but I was always drawn to God. The only church goer in my clan was my grandmother, who took me to church with her, but I only saw her during the summer.
I searched for God all my life and studied with more denominations than I can now recall. I became disgusted with Christianity after awhile and turned to Paganism, Spiritism etc. but I couldn't bring myself to worship other gods, so I returned and kept looking.
When I was about 18 I studied with the Pentecostals and I went to Church with them a couple times. I always studied the Bible on my own and realized that when people spoke in tongues, there was always someone else who understood them- an interpreter. But at this Church, there were no interpreters, just chaos.
As I studied more, I realized that tongues were a temporary gift. It was supposed to be used to help spread the word of God of foreign Countries. Now-a-day, there's no need for tongues.
Just because some may prophecy or do powerful works, doesn't mean the power is from God.
Matthew 7:21-23 says:
"“Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22*Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23*And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness."

So people should search out the Scriptures, for themselves and not rely on the teachings of others alone.

There is no reason to fear hell. It doesn't exist.
Psalm 37:28,29
"...But as for the offspring of the wicked ones, they will indeed be cut off.
29*The righteous themselves will possess the earth,
And they will reside forever upon it."

When hell is spoken of in the New Testament, it's neing used as hyperbole. Hell simply means the common grave of mankind. When the wicked are distroyed, they will be completely and eternally destroyed.
Let me know if I can help [email protected]

Thanks!
I will continue to search for answers and study this.
I think I will always be a christian, I just fell right with it.
I dont know.
But yeah. I still wouldent want to live for ever on the earth.
But yeah.
thanks again

No problem.. any time
You sound like my children. They say it would bore them to death. I tell them: Imagine what life would be like in a perfect world... all the things you can learn and do. How the food would taste when it grows like it should in a perfect environment. I tell them to imagine the ways people can invent clean technology and how the deepest parts of the ocean may be able to be explored and how we may even be able to migrate to other planets (if no one dies, the world would get very overpopulated unless 1- God stops procreation 2- other options become available).
So try to have an open mind. Forever doesn't necessarily equal boredom
Much success to you on your spiritual journey.

Originally Posted by magical mike

Thanks!
I will continue to search for answers and study this.
I think I will always be a christian, I just fell right with it.
I dont know.
But yeah. I still wouldent want to live for ever on the earth.
But yeah.
thanks again

Great points made by everyone. Once again, don't take what any of us give to you as fact.
There are indeed multiple views and interpretations of "is hell real or not?". None of us especially me can tell you emphatically that here's a fact, believe it, believe that

"Hell exists"

or conversely,

"Hell does NOT exist".

I can however tell you what I believe and the reasons why but I can't give you a 100% iron clad fact that you should believe something simply because I say it's so. By my beliefs it only takes a micro-second in time to stop all your worries forever and you'll never have to worry about it again but then again, that's my belief .. not everyone's.
Keep your mind open, listen to everyone and study it all a bit on your own.

Originally Posted by magical mike

Studing..
I hope I will find the truth one day.

Scatterbrain had a good point. Saying that you want to believe in Jesus just to be safe is ridiculous because of the thousands of other religions out there who tell possible suckers believers the same thing. Except they swap out the name Jesus for their god.

Churches are tax exempt (Churches are not required by the government to pay any taxes...what...so...ever.)

Therefore when your pastor talks to you about offering 10% of your money to God...he really means himself, possibly other officials there at the church, and a church bank account.

Look at this for a bit, let's do some math...I was bored one day and decided to do this. My friends mom is a Christian woman and she believes in the power of tithing money. She always gives 10% of her monthly income to "God". She makes roughly $10,000.00 a month so she gives 1,000 a month to her church. That's $12,000.00 a year. She's been doing this every month, every year for 25 years. The bible says (and this is my paraphrased version) that if you give 10% of your income, God will multiply it 100 fold. Okay, by this rationalization...God is saying your church is a stock that always goes up and your return will be 100 fold every single time. Now let's see how much this "100 fold stock" God was talking about in the bible was supposed to net my friend's mom after 25 years of investing $1,000.00 per month into her church...

$1,000.00 /month x 12 months = $12,000

$12,000 x 100 = 1,200,000

1,200,000 x 25 years = $30,000,000.00

Thirty million dollars...yes that's correct. Does she have this money? Hell no. This "100 fold stock" is full of hot air. Yet 25 years later she still heavily believes that tithing is worth it. I believe giving to charities is worth it, using your money to buy wells in Africa where they have none is worth it, buying a meal for a homeless person is worth it. Giving up 10% of your income each month to a church who offers you nothing back but messages of hope from a plagiarized fictitious god that came out of the irrational bronze era is NOT worth it.

I'm not telling you what to believe mike, society and religion serve that purpose. Sooner or later you have to make up your own damn mind. I'm just trying to get you to think and ask questions without fear. I know what it's like. I too was a Christian...hardcore Christian. Speaking in tongues, dances...the whole 9 yards. It bothers me that we have schizophrenics locked in mental institutions when half the world thinks they're hearing a spirit speak to them from the clouds. Learn how to think and ask the right questions in spite of fear of what others might think of you...that's where courage comes in. We're no different, you and I. I want to know the truth, just like you.

I spoke to my beloved cousin (whom I view as a brother) awhile ago. He's much younger than me, about 17 years of age. He'll be going to college in a few months. He had been a christian all his life because (like so many others) that's how he was raised. When I revealed a bunch of information to him and introduced him to a series of movies he told me he felt so empty inside...like I just snatched something he believed in...away from him. He said he felt lost knowing about all these Gods who carried the bio of Jesus before Jesus was born. He told me he didn't know what to turn to. It took him awhile but he's learning to stand on his own without feeling he needs to believe in the heaven and hell ideologies to make it in this world. And...he's happy.

If you're the type of person who still thinks it's best to be "safe than sorry" by believing in Jesus for fear of damnation, then I've wasted my time and continuing this now or in the future is futile. However, if you're the type that's not afraid to ask questions, stand on his own two feet and do some heavy research then this post has not been in vain. You seem like a good kid and I think you'll do just fine in life...whatever path you choose to follow. Just make sure it's you whose made the decision to follow what path that may be. Learn to think for yourself Mike, just learn to think.

Not all Christian denominations have a paid clergy class. Jehovah's Witnesses are such that do not. We have no tray passed around, there are boxes for donations near the door and we give whatever we want. At the begining of every month, the secretary goes over the donations and how they were applied: local expenses; what was given to the head quarters in NY for expenses (making books, magazines etc); what was given to the head quarters to be used to make other Kingdom Halls (which is what we call our church). Yearly, we receive a report from NY which tells us where the money went to. Even the head quarters are staffed by volunteers.
We know exactly how the money is used and no one is sent to the poor house because they had to give more than they could afford

Again... do research. Blanket statements are not always true.

Originally Posted by Zhaylin

Not all Christian denominations have a paid clergy class. Jehovah's Witnesses are such that do not. We have no tray passed around, there are boxes for donations near the door and we give whatever we want. At the begining of every month, the secretary goes over the donations and how they were applied: local expenses; what was given to the head quarters in NY for expenses (making books, magazines etc); what was given to the head quarters to be used to make other Kingdom Halls (which is what we call our church). Yearly, we receive a report from NY which tells us where the money went to. Even the head quarters are staffed by volunteers.
We know exactly how the money is used and no one is sent to the poor house because they had to give more than they could afford

Again... do research. Blanket statements are not always true.

Thank you for that. I was not aware of how Jehovah Witnesses handled their money, so thank you. However, be that as it may, the issue of church finances (which you attacked) does not compensate for the idiocy that is Christianity and religion itself. Attack my main argument above and not something fickle such as where the money goes. How do you feel knowing your Jesus has an uncanny plagiarized biography stolen from many gods before his "alleged" time here on earth?

No problem
I singled that out because it was a subject I knew the most about.
That there are similarities between Paganism and Christianity (etc) is a moot point to me because I believe in Satan and the demons and I wouldn't put it past him to create such to lead people away from Bible understanding.
For me: God Created the earth, animals, Adam and Eve etc. Adam and Eve had children and verbally passed on their knowledge to them. Cain set out on a course of his own and the stories evolved from there. After the flood and the branching out of the families, the stories likewise evolved.
To say that Paganism (etc) originated before Christianity is absolutely true (inasmuch as Christianity wasn't established until after the death of Christ). But the beliefs of God (Jehovah) were first (upon which Christianity was built).
So, with me, it's truly a circular argument if I'm speaking with someone who devoutly believes that Christianity was built upon myths because I devoutly believe it is Paganism which is a perversion [for lack of a better word] of Christianity.

As a Christian, my beliefs encompass not only the New Testament, but the Old as well. And Jesus was prophesied about as early as Genesis 3:15 which predates all other beliefs.

Great points though, and great topic!

Originally Posted by Zhaylin

I believe in Satan and the demons and I wouldn't put it past him to create such to lead people away from Bible understanding.

My uncle said this too when I asked him about it. You do realize you just created that belief on the spot to circumvent the blatant truth that the other ancient religions and gods pre-dated Jesus and therefore it was Jesus's life that was plagiarized...not the other way around. This is almost as ridiculous as when I heard a christian tell me that God put the dinosaur bones throughout the earth to test our faith.

Originally Posted by Zhaylin

For me: God Created the earth, animals, Adam and Eve etc. Adam and Eve had children and verbally passed on their knowledge to them.

You do also realize that it's impossible for one woman and one man to populate the entire planet right...the creation story is no different (in terms of rationalism) and no more asinine than Joseph Smith's creation story. After all, in both cases men sat down to write something up they both said "God told them to write". Furthermore, science came thousands of years after the bible was written. In biblical times they believed sea monsters were a definite sea hazard...they believed constellations were really conscious celestial gods and they also believed the Earth was flat (if I'm not mistaking the time periods). From the SAME time period...these are the same minds who wrote a bible built on rational truth and end-all knowledge? Seriously...come on...

Originally Posted by Zhaylin

After the flood and the branching out of the families, the stories likewise evolved.

There was no great flood. At least not one that covered the entire earth. Had there of been one, there would be sedimentary evidence for this "world-wide flood" everywhere...yet there isn't. Scientists have already deemed this great flood to by merely a myth. However, seeing as more than one culture wrote about this flood (the mesapotamian's did as well) that may give SOME ounce of credibility to this. Seeing as minds back then were very primitive and exaggerations and superstitions ruled the minds of man...I believe the flood may have been an isolated case (like new orleans for example) and their minds might have exaggerated their location to be inclusive of the entire earth. Also if Noah had of gathered 2 by 2 of every animal...it would have taken hundreds of thousands of years for him to finish. Yet people blindly accept this crap and everyone has their own story and set of beliefs...thus more blood is shed over religious dogmas than anything else. Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, and John Adams were right in their beliefs that religion was poisonous to man.

Originally Posted by Zhaylin

So, with me, it's truly a circular argument if I'm speaking with someone who devoutly believes that Christianity was built upon myths because I devoutly believe it is Paganism which is a perversion [for lack of a better word] of Christianity.

Let me get this straight...dionysus, mithra, Krishna, Attis, Horus and tens more...came BEFORE Christianity...(pre-Jesus's alleged birth) and yet YOU call THOSE religions and god's a perversion? Lady, everything is the same in your book that is in their books, the only difference is that the names changed. Horus was called KRST the anointed one and Jesus was called Christ the anointed one...Horus walked on water and was dead for three days and so was Jesus. Christianity doesn't get more perverted than that. The difference is, kind woman, you are being made aware of these things yet you choose to blindly submit to a dogmatic religion that serves no other purpose than helping you sleep soundly at night because you believe you will probably be one of the 144,000 to be with Christ in heaven and reign. All...evidence points to Christianity as being plagiarized bullshit. Wake up and smell the fecal matter.

Originally Posted by Zhaylin

As a Christian, my beliefs encompass not only the New Testament, but the Old as well. And Jesus was prophesied about as early as Genesis 3:15 which predates all other beliefs.

Genesis 3:15 (King James Version)

And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Taken from - http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...:15&version=9;

...are you kidding me. There's no mention of Jesus in that scripture nor is it relevant to the subject matter at all. I don't even feel like addressing this even further because your credibility with that just got shot out the window.

Originally Posted by Zhaylin

Great points though, and great topic!

I don't get why you people (religious people) just can't be satisfied in NOT trying claim you know the way to eternal life. Religion is irrational, illogical, science came thousands of years after most religions were brought forth, men created these religions out of their heads and wrote them down, christianity is plagiarized, there was no world-wide flood and yes...the earth is much older than 5 - 10,000 years. I'm not atheist...but I sure do understand why people are flocking to atheism in huge numbers. If there is an intelligent creator behind all of this (which I think is true) you guys (religious people) are sure giving "it" a bad reputation.

Originally Posted by magical mike

Gosh, why cant there be just one FACT THAT EXPLAINS IT ALL!
No freaking guessing..

There is, it's called DEATH! Just be patient.

Originally Posted by The Cusp

There is, it's called DEATH! Just be patient.

Good one. AND, that's when we'll finally know if side A is right or side B. Unfortunately at that point we won't be able to log in to this board to tell everybody. That would be spooky.

Originally Posted by Jeff777

It bothers me that we have schizophrenics locked in mental institutions when half the world thinks they're hearing a spirit speak to them from the clouds.

My thoughts exactly.



Zhaylin, what if I told you that Set planted the bible to turn us away from Horus?

Very good arguments. But, dear sir, part of the meaning of Genesis 3:15 is the "sacred secret" which is spoken of in the New Testament. Yet unbelievers will never understand it even if evidence is presented before them (Mr 4:11, 12)
Jesus IS the seed spoken of.
For a very detailed explaination, ask one of Jehovah's Witnesses for the book "Revelation- It's Grand Climax at Hand". We accept donations which go toward the making of such books, but everything we offer is free. Or you could go to http://www.watchtower.org/e/archives/index.htm#animals which is an index on a great variety of topics. Or, specifically, http://www.watchtower.org/e/200606b/article_01.htm which explains what the original sin was and briefly explains Jesus' role.

As for there being a world-wide flood... it didn't have to be global. There's no way that mankind spread to every corner of the now known planet. It's possible that the flood only covered the entirety of the THEN known world.

As for believing unscientific things (as in the world being flat), the Bible rejected such beliefs. Two examples:
"Isa. 40:22: “There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth.” In ancient times the general opinion was that the earth was flat. It was not until over 200 years after this Bible text had been written that a school of Greek philosophers reasoned that the earth likely was spherical, and in about another 300 years a Greek astronomer calculated the approximate radius of the earth. But the idea of a spherical earth was not the general view even then. Only in the 20th century has it been possible for humans to travel by airplane, and later into outer space and even to the moon, thus giving them a clear view of “the circle” of earth’s horizon.

Animal Life: Lev. 11:6: “The hare . . . is a chewer of the cud.” Though this was long attacked by some critics, the rabbit’s cud chewing was finally observed by Englishman William Cowper in the 18th century. The unusual way in which it is done was described in 1940 in Proceedings of the Zoological Society of London, Vol. 110, Series A, pp. 159-163."


As for the world being populated first by Adam and Eve and later by Noah, Shem, Ham, and Jepeth (sp) and their wives... Look at how long people lived back then. If I alone became pregnant as early as 15 and had a healthy child every year until- say, the age of 40, how many children would I have had? About 25. And say, half of my children were female and started reproducing at the age of 15 and each of them had 25 children.
Those numbers add up very quickly!! Back then they didn't have heriditory diseases as we do today. Just as animal breeders sometimes inbreed their stock to bring out disirable qualities and traits.
And in Noah's day, the animals didn't have the fear of man that they have today. People didn't eat meat until after the flood (proof, to me, that they were getting further from perfection and didn't need it until after then). It's also possible that God made the animals more peaceful for the process. As for there only being 2 of each, the account states that in some instances, 7 were brought.

"Of the clean beasts and fowls, seven of each kind were to be taken. A great quantity and variety of food for all these creatures, to last for more than a year, also had to be stowed away.—Ge 6:18-21; 7:2, 3.
The “kinds” of animals selected had reference to the clear-cut and unalterable boundaries or limits set by the Creator, within which boundaries creatures are capable of breeding “according to their kinds.” It has been estimated by some that the hundreds of thousands of species of animals today could be reduced to a comparatively few family “kinds”—the horse kind and the cow kind, to mention but two. The breeding boundaries according to “kind” established by Jehovah were not and could not be crossed. With this in mind some investigators have said that, had there been as few as 43 “kinds” of mammals, 74 “kinds” of birds, and 10 “kinds” of reptiles in the ark, they could have produced the variety of species known today. Others have been more liberal in estimating that 72 “kinds” of quadrupeds and less than 200 bird “kinds” were all that were required. That the great variety of animal life known today could have come from inbreeding within so few “kinds” following the Flood is proved by the endless variety of humankind—short, tall, fat, thin, with countless variations in the color of hair, eyes, and skin—all of whom sprang from the one family of Noah."
Noah didn't build the ark over night. It took him anywhere from 50 to 60 years to build a vessel that was 1,400,000 cu ft large!

Animal Life: Lev. 11:6: “The hare . . . is a chewer of the cud.” Though this was long attacked by some critics, the rabbit’s cud chewing was finally observed by Englishman William Cowper in the 18th century. The unusual way in which it is done was described in 1940 in Proceedings of the Zoological Society of London, Vol. 110, Series A, pp. 159-163.

As for believing I'll be going to Heaven... first let me say it's very refreshing that someone knows something of our beliefs!! But, the majority of all Witnesses alive today believe they will be resurrected to life on the Paradise Earth. There's around 6 million JW's worshipping today- only about 8,000 claimed to be of the 144,000 last year.


I've been working on this reply for about an hour lol. It's a topic I greatly love and research often. But I missed Scatterbrain's comment, to which I reply with a respectful chuckle (for I rarely "laugh" lol)- Good point. And such would be your right. Which is why I say the argument is "circular". If two people feel very passionately about something, they may never see eye to eye on a matter. But I still respect the rights of everyone to believe as they will. And I deeply apologize for my very poor choice of wording in my earlier post.

Now, I must eat

Oh yes... the quoted portions above were taken from "Insight on the Scriptures" and "Reasoning on the Scriptures"- both published by Jehovah's Witnesses.

Ahh, so much info!!
But talking about the tithes, it dosent always comeback the same way you gave it.
Like uhh if I gave 10 bucks, dosent mean, I would find 100$. I could have a really happy day or something.
IDK something like that, is what I was told... Again I need to read that in the bible lol..

I fell so bad that I am not typeing up near as much as everyone else here.
Its just because I really dont have any arguments, I am just reading these all really..

Firstly, thank you for taking your time to write such an elaborate and well-thought out post. Now let's get on with this shall we?

One of the more amazing things in our modern world is the persistence of belief in utterly ridiculous things. Religion itself I can understand, since people really, really want to believe, and all successful religions are ever-evolving and vague and all-encompassing enough that most everyone can find some aspect of it to keep believing in. But actual details of religion, especially ones that are directly contradicted by common sense and multiple schools of modern knowledge, perplex me.

Originally Posted by Zhaylin

Very good arguments. But, dear sir, part of the meaning of Genesis 3:15 is the "sacred secret" which is spoken of in the New Testament. Yet unbelievers will never understand it even if evidence is presented before them (Mr 4:11,*12)
Jesus IS the seed spoken of.

No Jesus is NOT the seed spoken of. I read the word seed but it didn't say anything about a Jesus, Yeshua, Jehovah etc. coming from a lineage of David. Do you see how irrational this is? Putting aside all logic for a moment, I will illustrate things a bit more. PRE-SUPPOSING that Gen 3:15 WAS about a savior...(which it obviously isn't) anyone could have come along later and filled this position. Hell anyone with a decent knowledge of magick tricks could have convinced the world built heavily on superstition back then that they were the one foretold about in Gen 3:15. Again, pre-supposing Gen 3:15 was about a savior, you see how all that was necessary was for some guy experienced in parlor tricks to come along and say "Here I am! I'm the guy that the scriptures talked about! Worship me!" Now...seeing as Jehova's thought up this sacred secret thingy that "Oh! only believers will understand!" it's no wonder why this argument is hardly a moot point, merely a dead one. We are similar, you and I...both of us are in search for truth, the difference however...is I don't claim to have found it through baseless dogmas devoid of intelligence and lacking in evidence.

Originally Posted by Zhaylin

For a very detailed explaination, ask one of Jehovah's Witnesses for the book "Revelation- It's Grand Climax at Hand".

No. Why would it make sense for me to try and gain rationalism and logic from a book created by those who are irrational and illogical? This "buy the book" quote is no sillier than me creating a religion based on the flying spaghetti monster and unbelievers coming up to me and asking me how I can rationalize such a silly thing. My response (similar to yours) would be "Further proof is in another book I wrote". You see how your religion creates more books and manly interpretations to support THEIR beliefs? It's a circle of ignorance, and lies in which you all (religious people) happily run around in...not caring they're believing in something with about as much logic as Aesop's fables (after all, in both stories...they had talking animals).

Originally Posted by Zhaylin

As for there being a world-wide flood... it didn't have to be global. There's no way that mankind spread to every corner of the now known planet. It's possible that the flood only covered the entirety of the THEN known world.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by Zhaylin

As for believing unscientific things (as in the world being flat), the Bible rejected such beliefs. Two examples:
"Isa. 40:22: “There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth.” In ancient times the general opinion was that the earth was flat. It was not until over 200 years after this Bible text had been written that a school of Greek philosophers reasoned that the earth likely was spherical, and in about another 300 years a Greek astronomer calculated the approximate radius of the earth. But the idea of a spherical earth was not the general view even then. Only in the 20th century has it been possible for humans to travel by airplane, and later into outer space and even to the moon, thus giving them a clear view of “the circle” of earth’s horizon.

Apparently you fundamentalist like using this argument a lot. Hmm. Isaiah describes the Earth as being a circle...NOT a sphere. A circle is a flat two dimensional shape and a sphere is three dimensional. Contrary to some assertions, Hebrew does have separate words for "Circle" and "Shere". Isaiah 22:18 refers to throwing a ball. Earth is NOT described as a ball. Earth is also describes as being like the floor of a tent, with the sky spread out overhead. Isaiah probably imagined a universe like a tent. The Earth was the roughly circular flat floor and the sky was like a hemispherical fabric covering.

Originally Posted by Zhaylin

Animal Life: Lev. 11:6: “The hare . . . is a chewer of the cud.” Though this was long attacked by some critics, the rabbit’s cud chewing was finally observed by Englishman William Cowper in the 18th century. The unusual way in which it is done was described in 1940 in Proceedings of the Zoological Society of London, Vol. 110, Series A, pp. 159-163."

Christian Evangelist Dr. Norman Geisler confirms he does not believe in rabbits chewing a cud in the literal modern sense, rather an observational viewpoint... and short, concise answer "No, they do not", with excerpts from dictionary.com defining what cud is, scientific research on digestion/refection in rabbits, and theologians themselves speak on hares and alleged cud chewing from the book of Leviticus and Deuteronomy.

"Rabbits also produce normal droppings, which are not re-eaten."
Rabbits, cavies and related species have a digestive system designed for coprophagia. These herbivores do not have the complicated ruminant digestive system, so instead they extract more nutrition from grass by giving their food a second pass through the gut. Soft caecal pellets of partially digested food are excreted and generally consumed immediately. They also produce normal droppings, which are not re-eaten.

Source: Encyclopedia Coprophagia

I don't think that the inerrantist attempts to try and justify the verse about rabbits being "ruminants" makes any sense. Especially since the Hebrew word means to "bring up," not poop out. More likely they simply noted the APPEARANCE that rabbits have of chewing grass for a long time, and some rabbits may have APPEARED to bring up their food again.

Originally Posted by Zhaylin

As for the world being populated first by Adam and Eve and later by Noah, Shem, Ham, and Jepeth (sp) and their wives... Look at how long people lived back then.

What are you talking about...there's no recorded evidence of how long people lived back in the alleged "flood era"...(and don't you dare cite the bible as accurate historical evidence)

Originally Posted by Zhaylin

If I alone became pregnant as early as 15 and had a healthy child every year until- say, the age of 40, how many children would I have had? About 25. And say, half of my children were female and started reproducing at the age of 15 and each of them had 25 children.

Christians believe God is an "unchanging" God. Therefore by this logic, if you have a son Zhaylin, it's perfectly okay for to reproduce with him today seeing as God was okay with it back then. This is the same God who apparently told Abraham to kill his son to "test his faith" oh! but I thought God knew everything? Why was it necessary for him to test his faith if he is the alpha AND the omega (meaning he KNEW whether or not Abraham had faith in him or not)? This is ALSO the same God who calls himself "jealous"...like an age-old eternal infinitely wise God who harps about us needing to transcend "the flesh" could harbor such petty human emotions such as jealousy and anger.

Romans 12:19 - "Vengeance is mine saith the lord"

Definition of "Vengeance" according to dictionary.com

1. infliction of injury, harm, humiliation, or the like, on a person by another who has been harmed by that person; violent revenge: But have you the right to vengeance?
2. an act or opportunity of inflicting such trouble: to take one's vengeance.
3. the desire for revenge: a man full of vengeance.
4. Obsolete. hurt; injury.
5. Obsolete. curse; imprecation.

Yeah, this god sounds "enlightened" alright.

There was a woman a few years ago who called 911 crying because she killed her two sons. When the 911 operator asked why she had done that, she said "God told her too." That would (undoubtedly by most christians) be viewed as a crazy woman. I wonder why people didn't think that way about Abraham? Oh that's right...we're just going to take the bible's word for it that he was really channeling a jealous, angry, and yet loving God who told him to kill his son.

Originally Posted by Zhaylin

And in Noah's day, the animals didn't have the fear of man that they have today. People didn't eat meat until after the flood (proof, to me, that they were getting further from perfection and didn't need it until after then).

See now you're talking (and calling it proof) like the flood of "Noah" was historical accuracy. That's where you're wrong. Also regarding when people ate meat is not known either. I doubt a caveman wrote down on his cave wall the first day he ate meat.

Originally Posted by Zhaylin

It's also possible that God made the animals more peaceful for the process.

No it's not. You're pre-supposing the Christian god is real and therefore guessing he did this. You just formed a hypothesis based on historical inaccuracy.

Originally Posted by Zhaylin

It has been estimated by some that the hundreds of thousands of species of animals today could be reduced to a comparatively few family “kinds”—the horse kind and the cow kind, to mention but two. The breeding boundaries according to “kind” established by Jehovah were not and could not be crossed. With this in mind some investigators have said that, had there been as few as 43 “kinds” of mammals, 74 “kinds” of birds, and 10 “kinds” of reptiles in the ark, they could have produced the variety of species known today. Others have been more liberal in estimating that 72 “kinds” of quadrupeds and less than 200 bird “kinds” were all that were required.

Okay...first of all, Noah's ark has been debunked. Gopher wood was used to build the ark. People have (on computers) re-constructed the size of this great ark and taking into account what we know of the strength of gopher wood...it would have been impossible to build the ark on gopher wood alone. The damn thing would have broken apart the minute the waters hit it.

Not to mention after the flood God would have had to teleport the animals to every island and continent on earth, and also massively speed up breeding and evolution so that the few animals/humans in the ark could mutate to fill every ecological niche in just a few hundred years. He'd also have to do this so it didn't create a fossil record of mass extinctions, somehow keep all of the saltwater fish from dying due to all of the non-salty rain, make 30,000 feet of water evaporate away almost immediately, etc.
Which is logically absurd, but if you really want to believe in it, you can do so. Pretty much every aspect of Noah's Ark is totally debunked in numerous articles. One here.

Originally Posted by Zhaylin

But I missed Scatterbrain's comment, to which I reply with a respectful chuckle (for I rarely "laugh" lol)- Good point. And such would be your right. Which is why I say the argument is "circular".

It's not circular. You're being made aware of these plagiarisms and logical fallacies yet you still continue to accept them as historical truth. That's no different than Scatterbrain telling you not to go walking on broken glass but you going and doing so because you believe it's the right thing to do...no matter how illogical, irrational and flat out retarded it may be. This isn't circular, it's willful ignorance and naivety vs. rationalism.

Originally Posted by Zhaylin

If two people feel very passionately about something, they may never see eye to eye on a matter. But I still respect the rights of everyone to believe as they will.

As long as you're happy and religion is benefiting you, then I am happy for you as well. However, choosing to remain ignorant and deceived is just that...a choice. My only problem with JW's, and Mormon's is that they believe so strongly in their nonsensical religions that they feel obligated to wake others up on Saturday mornings and oppress them with their nonsense as well.

Don't misconstrue my post as me being angry with you or taking pot shots at you. If it came off that way, I emphatically apologize. I am angry with religion itself (not just christianity) and the smart men and women that choose to believe in such IQ dimmers.

Great debate folks with thoughtful logical answers. I'll just add to Jeff's "Abraham killing his son" point. There are many more instances in the Bible where God seems to go

"huh? I didn't know you were going to do that" like when Jonah appeared to change God's mind. If you're omnipotent how can you change your mind if you know how everything since the beginning of time until the end of time plays out?

The book (to those that believe the book) says however that God does not change his mind. If we pull it all out of archaic ancient biblical times and consider the possibility of some kind of being that sits outside of this space/time continuum where the logical flow of time has no meaning it's possible to envision the scenerio where God had no need to test Abraham's faith (for God's proof of concept) but rather for Abraham's benefit and the benefit of those that might read about the incident thousands of years later.

It's like (for those that believe in all this) praying for a check today and 10 minutes later receiving a check from the mailman at the door. The only problem is, the check was written one week ago. How could that happen? If I was God living outside of this reality where sequential time has no meaning I think I could pull a trick like that off, knowing a week ahead of time that later you would pray that particular prayer.

You're right Jeff, on the surface there are tons of things written in that book that make you go hmmm. And you're right about the fact that so many people like sheep simply follow the herd and without doing any critical analysis show up at the churches and synagogues and mosques of the world.

Most of them for example don't even question the problem with believing the bible's chronology from Adam to Jesus when science tells us that there are galaxies flying away from us 15 billion light years away and carbon dating showing the earth to be ancient.

Fortunately (for me at least) there are answers to most if not all of the issues you raised but it would take 15 billion years for all of us to debate all those issues when in reality nobody on any side is going to change anybody's mind on the other side.

Good analysis you're putting forth though. You've got your thinking cap on. And, what's up with that talking snake and that sea parting and King Herod supposedly ordering all children killed in Bethlehem when history records no such incident? Fortunately there are answers for all that and more including that foolish "Don't eat shellfish" order. Now how ridiculous was THAT?

Take all this in stride Magical Mike. Don't get pulled into a religion simply because many around you are following it. Conversely my suggestion is that you at least check it out on your own. Either those so called disciples that wrote parts of the New Testament recorded something that actually happened, were mistaken about what they THOUGHT happened or .. they're all lying. It's up to you to decide. Those that believe will tell you, it's not so much the words that you read but the mystical communication that occurs between them and God AS they read. Kind of like Darth Vader communicating with the emperor (only without the hologram). If that's true then that the only way to communicate with God (if he exists) is to read then, the more you read the more you'll learn about God. On the flip side the more you read the more you'll discover apparent discrepancies and illogical statements which, if you desire to you can resolve.