DEILD and REM Cycles

[imrossed]

So I've been finally getting pretty good at naturally waking up a few hours into sleep (I'm in my WBTB period right now ), and I've always assumed that the reason we do this is because after we come out of a REM cycle, it takes a little bit for our mind to go into the next cycle, but I don't really know. My question is: assuming the above is true, how is a natural DEILD supposed to occur, if when coming out if the REM cycle it will take a bit of time to get into the next? I get how DEILDs are useful for chaining LDs, that part makes sense. But in the few guides I've read, I've noticed they say to wake up after non-lucid and to start the DEILD process. Any thoughts?

[StephL]

Been wondering this as well - WBTB - sure - but to DEILD back in - one should wake up in the middle of a dream in theory. But maybe REM phases are a bit malleable in terms of lengths and lengths of interims between them - maybe one simply prolongs the last REM with it? I know I can sometimes re-enter a normal dream, when I want it to go on, because I like it - esp. late in my sleep time. Unfortunately - I usually don't want to LD then - I know it sounds mad - but I somehow seem to worry, if I get it back, if I try to go in consciously - I mean I worry that I fail - and rather want the old one back. Stupid like not much else that is - had it this morning - just went back into a normal one. DEILD I only did twice - and both times from an LD back into one - never from a normal one. Looking forward to answers!

[Maxis]

I may be wrong, but based off of a number of different kinds of sources and just sort of putting the pieces of info together here's what I've heard: Late in the night, your nREM periods become much shorter and your REM periods longer. DEILDs can happen because of just how short the nREM period is; you wake up exiting REM, lie there, and in ~30 seconds you're back into REM and back in the dream lucidly. As for WBTB, I've heard (from a YouTube video, who knows how accurate it is) that it has to do with interrupting your REM cycle and becoming alert and ready to lucid dream in the process, then because it was interrupted you go straight back into it when you go back to sleep (due to it being interrupted) and you're also suddenly much more alert and aware than before, increasing your chances of a lucid dream. Like I said, not 100% sure this is the case (I know almost nothing about the sleep cycle besides the very basics, lol), but that could be a logical explanation for it.

[imrossed]

I may be wrong, but based off of a number of different kinds of sources and just sort of putting the pieces of info together here's what I've heard: Late in the night, your nREM periods become much shorter and your REM periods longer. DEILDs can happen because of just how short the nREM period is; you wake up exiting REM, lie there, and in ~30 seconds you're back into REM and back in the dream lucidly. As for WBTB, I've heard (from a YouTube video, who knows how accurate it is) that it has to do with interrupting your REM cycle and becoming alert and ready to lucid dream in the process, then because it was interrupted you go straight back into it when you go back to sleep (due to it being interrupted) and you're also suddenly much more alert and aware than before, increasing your chances of a lucid dream. Like I said, not 100% sure this is the case (I know almost nothing about the sleep cycle besides the very basics, lol), but that could be a logical explanation for it. Those are definitely possible explanations! Good thoughts, I wonder what others think as well, because I'm in the same boat, I only know the basics of the sleep cycle haha.

[VagalTone]

In late hours, REM periods are pretty close, so if you wake up after 8 hours of sleep, for instance, you are very likely to enter another REM period very soon It may take some minutes..but you are very close ! Also, it´s very common to wake up in the middle of dreams for many reasons and so you have an opportunity here. But in general, it's easier ( for me at least ) to DEILD with the help of some REM disrupter, like a periodic autosnooze alarm. ( alarm -DEILD )

[Sageous]

I'm not seeing the problem here, for a couple of reasons. First, yes, your REM periods are pretty much following right after each other toward the end of your sleep cycle, so the wait for the next REM cycle is minimal. On top of that, as Steph already noted, it is possible to extend your REM period a bit, to get your last dream to bump right into your next dream. Keep in mind that you can still dream in NREM, so that brief wait for the next REM period does not need to be a term in limbo... indeed, if you were lucid in the first dream, and are careful not to fully wake up between dreams, you will likely notice little more than a slight "bump" in perception quality and dream content during the DEILD transition (and, you'll be "chaining" your LD's, which is pretty cool!). So, if you are naturally waking -- or, better yet, you are noticing that you're about to wake up during a current dream -- it really isn't that difficult to shift from one REM period to the next without much delay, or, if you stretch your current dream a bit, without any delay at all. For what it's worth, I personally think setting an alarm is not the best idea, because it can cause an abrupt awakening that excites your reticular system too much, and could make it difficult to hang on to the dream you were just in -- and the accompanying "dreamy" feeling -- and make it a bit more difficult to go back to sleep.

[imrossed]

I'm not seeing the problem here, for a couple of reasons. First, yes, your REM periods are pretty much following right after each other toward the end of your sleep cycle, so the wait for the next REM cycle is minimal. On top of that, as Steph already noted, it is possible to extend your REM period a bit, to get your last dream to bump right into your next dream. Keep in mind that you can still dream in NREM, so that brief wait for the next REM period does not need to be a term in limbo... indeed, if you were lucid in the first dream, and are careful not to fully wake up between dreams, you will likely notice little more than a slight "bump" in perception quality and dream content during the DEILD transition (and, you'll be "chaining" your LD's, which is pretty cool!). So, if you are naturally waking -- or, better yet, you are noticing that you're about to wake up during a current dream -- it really isn't that difficult to shift from one REM period to the next without much delay, or, if you stretch your current dream a bit, without any delay at all. For what it's worth, I personally think setting an alarm is not the best idea, because it can cause an abrupt awakening that excites your reticular system too much, and could make it difficult to hang on to the dream you were just in -- and the accompanying "dreamy" feeling -- and make it a bit more difficult to go back to sleep. That is a ton of awesome info! Thanks Sageous, exactly what I wanted to know!

[VagalTone]

For what it's worth, I personally think setting an alarm is not the best idea, because it can cause an abrupt awakening that excites your reticular system too much, and could make it difficult to hang on to the dream you were just in -- and the accompanying "dreamy" feeling -- and make it a bit more difficult to go back to sleep. I will speak about my experience. It is only one case which of course is not significative at all. But i would ask people to try and see if it has any value. I have seen many positive reports on it. It is often very difficult or impossible to return to the same dream*, as the alarm can startle me. There is some room for improvement here: choosing a pleasant sound and the shortest effective ring time. In time ( days ) one learns to associate this sound with sleep and dreams. *But some times i have DILDed and wonder if this was because of the alarm. Half of the times ( my sucess rate so far! perhaps 50 attempts ) the alarm hits in REM ( 2-3 times per night, more if a good WBTB ), i can manage to get an OBE like dream, in which i wake up with my dream body. At other times, i can´t DEILD, but still i can profit from the opportunity. Now, it is very rare to struggle to fall asleep again- most of the times, i remain sleepy. Now, my dreams are all still pretty short, i don´t know if this alarm tech also contributes to that, but i suspect it might be -yes. a small shortcoming, because may times my dream senses are impaired ( specially vision and touch ). It is harder to stabilize but i also don´t put much effort on it. But there is another advantage about an autosnooze alarm: it can simply raise my awareness in my sleep and remind me that i want to lucid dream. Or of course, i can decide to write my dream ( which will be more easily recalled ?? ) IMO, the biggest problem of this tech is that it hits many times in non-rem sleep, which means my sleep is disrupted. So, it just performs the role of remembering me to keep my intention to lucid dream till the next time - if i don´t get mad and just turn off the alarm. Now, there is also room for improvement. If i sleep for 9+ hours, most of my sleep is REM, so if i don´t want to be bothered my some non-rem alarms, i just choose the alarm to start ringing after 8 or more hours ( most rings will hit REM sleep, which means every two beeps= DEILD ) PS: I still want to achieve natural DEILD and rely on myself, but that´s a long term goal. In the meantime, this tech ( and others to come ) can be helpful.

[Goldenspark]

The sleep cycle is supposed to repeat about every 90 minutes, and that's close to what happens to me. In that 90 minutes the REM part starts short at the beginning of the night and gets longer as has been said, but I have wondered if forcibly waking right at the start of REM might be resetting the 90 minute cycle, so that the REM part is then more than an hour away. I wonder if the hormonal balance to produce REM has to be got to by a period of nREM first, and that waking actually causes a hormonal reset? Missing out on REM early in the night can cause REM rebound later in the night, just as it can from night to night, so a failed WBTB on one cycle might mean a longer stronger REM episode the next cycle.

[Burke]

I think what some people may be overlooking is that you can multiple dreams during one REM period. REM is where dreams occur, and if you separate dreams by context and content, then when you wake up between dreams it's not necessarily the end of an REM period. If your REM period is disrupted, your brain wants to return to it as fast as possible, just like if you're awoken from a deep sleep you will return to that sleep after falling back asleep, instead of slowly drifting into it like you normally would. Therefore, when you awaken during the middle of an REM cycle, you can perform a DEILD and it'll only take a few seconds. I also find that it is most common for me to return to the same dream, likely showing that it isn't the end of the cycle.* Also, if you wake up at the end of a REM period, like others have stated, your nREM gets shorter as the night goes on, so you'll return to REM sleep faster. However, it has been proven that we still dream during nREM sleep. It is often much less vivid and, for whatever reason, darker in tone (context wise). We often don't remember them because not only are they less vivid, but they occur earlier in the sleep cycle and fade from there, instead of growing like REM. With DEILDs we are also lucid, so we can change the tone of the dream into whatever we want and create what we like. *There is also a strong possibility that, because I just exited a dream, I have a lot of content from that dream. Instead of my mind creating a whole new dream scene from scratch, it may be easier to just return to this pre-used dream and continue from there. This really only comes into play when chaining DEILDs, though.