Prospective Memory and Lucid Dreaming

[Nailler]

I'm a bit compulsive on wanting to know how things work, and so when I became interested in lucid dreaming, I spent a month or two studying the hard science on perception, memory, and dreaming, as well as the popular books on the subject. When the smoke cleared one fact stood out above everything else I had learned. All lucid dreaming induction techniques rely upon prospective memory for their workability. For those of you unfamiliar with "prospective memory" a brief overview. The two kinds of memory are retrospective and prospective. Retrospective memory is the faculty we use to recall past events, for example, remembering how to bake a cake, or the experiences of your last vacation. Prospective memory is the faculty we use to remember to remember something at a future time, for example remembering to remember to stop at the store and buy cat food on the way home from school... or remembering to remember your girlfriend's birthday. Stephen LaBerge's breakthrough came about as a direct result of his realizing the role prospective memory plays in lucid dreaming. In WILD approaches to lucid dreaming, we will ourselves to remember to remember to stay aware as we hit the various stages of falling physically asleep. If our prospective memory lets us down, the WILD attempt fails. In DILD approaches we will ourselves to remember to remember to recognize that we're dreaming when certain reminders (dream signs) show up. Retrospective memory is turned off in the sleep state. We don't flinch at the most absurd happenings because we don't remember what is normal. Prospective memory, on the other hand, remains turned on while we sleep. This is evidenced by the fact that most people can successfully will themselves to wake up at a particular time, or perhaps they wake up seconds before the alarm clock sounds. It's a self-evident fact that dream recall is essential to the success of any lucid dreaming technique, but beyond that it's all about the ability to use our prospective memories. I was surprised to learn that in the ten years prior to LaBerge making known his ground-breaking discoveries, less than 40 peer reviewed papers touching upon prospective memory had been published. In the ten years that followed, over 300 papers on the subject were published. Obviously there was a lot about the subject that was not known when LaBerge wrote his book. And so I spent the last month studying prospective memory, how it works, how to effectively use it, and why it sometimes fails us. As my understanding of the subject grew, I began to suspect, and finally concluded what to me was a rather remarkable find... EVERY TECHNIQUE THAT LEADS TO A GREATER PERCENTAGE OF SUCCESSFUL LUCID DREAMING WORKS BECAUSE IT IMPROVES OR MORE EFFECTIVELY UTILIZES PROSPECTIVE MEMORY. That discovery, coupled with one of those "bolt from the blue" moments of insight opened the door to a very direct and simple approach to the MILD technique that I just began experimenting with last week. So far my success record is 4 for 5. After last night's success with the approach, I got really excited, and so this post to tell you guys about it. More to follow...

[VagalTone]

Congratulations on your epiphany ! I honestly hope you keep your good results For sure prospective memory holds much promise, so i encourage you to keep investigating and practicing, but... EVERY TECHNIQUE THAT LEADS TO A GREATER PERCENTAGE OF SUCCESSFUL LUCID DREAMING WORKS BECAUSE IT IMPROVES OR MORE EFFECTIVELY UTILIZES PROSPECTIVE MEMORY. «Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence», Carl Sagan. And let me also clarify this point: In WILD approaches to lucid dreaming, we will ourselves to remember to remember to stay aware as we hit the various stages of falling physically asleep. If our prospective memory lets us down, the WILD attempt fails. WILD uses present memory, and not so much prospective memory. For instance, when you are following your breath in meditation, your intention is not to forget the object of attention. So it's the same in WILD. Just a small detail, but i thought it could be worthwhile.

[Eamo24]

EVERY TECHNIQUE THAT LEADS TO A GREATER PERCENTAGE OF SUCCESSFUL LUCID DREAMING WORKS BECAUSE IT IMPROVES OR MORE EFFECTIVELY UTILIZES PROSPECTIVE MEMORY. Very interesting. I agree that prospective memory is very powerful for lucid dream induction. I once tried to use an audio induction track to induce a lucid dream. I did realize I was dreaming, however, I later found out that the audio track didn’t actually work! I attributed the cause of lucidity to the fact that I had set my mind so strongly to listen for the audio, that I just ‘remembered’ to realize I was dreaming. It’s true that it is very powerful. I’d see it more of a supplement to use with another technique, but difficult to use on its own.

[Nailler]

WILD uses present memory, and not so much prospective memory. Here's my theory, on WILD and prospective memory, and I could be wrong. Maybe Sageous will offer an opinion. I agree that present memory plays a key role in WILDing, but from time to time during the natural phenomenon of present memory (awareness) turning off kicks in. It's at these moments that prospective memory kicks in and the intention to remain aware is again realized. If prospective memory fails at this point, the dive fails. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Later today I'll provide an explanation of how meditation and virtually all the awareness drills are workable because they aid prospective memory. There's a really simple explanation.

[Zoth]

Glad to see someone else reaching these conclusions. Now if only more people payed attention to posts like yours Nailler, I'm sure we would become better equipped to analyze certain aspects of lucid dreaming induction. Lucid dreaming revolves around the concept of answering to cues, and I'm convinced that spontaneous lucidity can (and is) achieved by one of the 3 requirements for spontaneous retrieval occurrence in PM based on events: a kind of self-priming. If it's okay with you, I'd like to point some particular stuff you said: In DILD approaches we will ourselves to remember to remember to recognize that we're dreaming when certain reminders (dream signs) show up. Correct for the most part, but that's not the whole story. PM based on events does seem (by what we can see) the most predominant type of PM, but there are many scenarios in which you can infer the occurrence of PM based on time. The problem with *time* PM is the fact that you become much more reliant on self-monitoring resources without having an external aid. Another issue that will (imo) forever regarding presence of time PM on lucid dreaming induction is our inability to tell the specific cause of the emergence of lucidity: currently, you have a significant percentage of lucid dreams whose source is inconclusive ("what made you reality check?", "what reminded you that you had gone to bed some hours ago?". Retrospective memory is turned off in the sleep state. We don't flinch at the most absurd happenings because we don't remember what is normal. You probably don't mean this Saying that anything is deactivated on a dream (or for that matter, sleep) is a dangerous oversimplification. And this is observable in many different "topics", like brain waves, physiological changes of sleep stages, and deactivation of neural functions. There's right away one key dependence of prospective memory: retrospective memory. For one first to kick in, the other one must work, as you can't recall a future intention without recalling what intention it is. But even with this clarification out of the way there's something else worth considering: Retrospective memory and encompasses many sub-types of memory, so imagine how it would be literally impossible to dream with anything should it be "turned off"! One of the few things that all dream theories seem to agree upon is exactly this use of previous memories - even in extreme cases of patients who cannot retain memories, yes, they can still dream about those experiences, they just won't recall they know them! (must find this paper again, but Dan Gilbert wrote some studies regarding something somewhat similar). So what seems to be happening is not so much a deactivation of retrospective memory, simply the lowering of activity on certain brain regions responsible for self-monitoring processes: think about it in terms of (for example) an evolutionary theory of dreaming as an adaptive behavior: the organism wouldn't want to wake up and interrupt the process, so the best possible method would be to "strip"...no, to impair (because strip is to definitive and the behavior is meant to be adaptive). Shutting down the whole retrospective memory would impossibility any form of dreaming. And this leads us to: Prospective memory, on the other hand, remains turned on while we sleep. This is evidenced by the fact that most people can successfully will themselves to wake up at a particular time, or perhaps they wake up seconds before the alarm clock sounds. It's a pretty good guess, but not exactly a fact. We still have yet to determine exactly the relation of those 2 variables: this study seems to point to an inverse relation to the two variables (waking up at will and prospective memory). Also, waking up before the alarm might simply be a result of rise on our PER levels (the protein that regulates our sleep-wake cycles), and not necessarily good prospective memory. Who knows! It's a self-evident fact that dream recall is essential to the success of any lucid dreaming technique, but beyond that it's all about the ability to use our prospective memories. If it was a self-evident fact then everyone would know it xD I agree with you regarding the huge impact that PM seems to have in most lucid dreaming techniques, just seems important to note that it's important to realize it's not an all or nothing scenario: certain techniques do escape the requirement of Prospective Memory. Great post overall Nailler!

[Nailler]

I’d see it more of a supplement to use with another technique, but difficult to use on its own. The reason prospective memory has been difficult to use on its own has to do with the nature of the "cues" which trigger action. The more specific a cue is, the more workable it is. For example: "I need to remember that we need cat food." is far less workable than "On the way home from school I'll remember to stop at the Safeway for cat food." For the purposes of LDing, dream signs are the cues. For example: "When I fall asleep and see the cross-eyed cat (dream sign) I'll remember to recognize that I'm dreaming." If only the damn cross-eyed cat would show up every night! So the problem is that it's difficult to set our cues because we don't know what dream signs will show up on any given night, and the generality of any dream sign is a very weak cue. But I've figured out a way around that, which I'll include when I do the write-up for the updated version of MILD.

[Dthoughts]

It's a pretty good guess, but not exactly a fact. We still have yet to determine exactly the relation of those 2 variables: this study seems to point to an inverse relation to the two variables (waking up at will and prospective memory). Also, waking up before the alarm might simply be a result of rise on our PER levels (the protein that regulates our sleep-wake cycles), and not necessarily good prospective memory. Who knows! Really abstract thought here, I hope i'm not shooting myself in the foot.. But.. There might be a relationship to prospective memory which triggers the protein release? So in effect, much better sleep is reported when the protein is released on a consciousness cue rather than a physical cue from the body which needs to wake up for whatever reason. If the body has to wake itself up i think it means the consciousness is not acting in accordance with the body. (unconscious sleep. dreams of intense desire without a shred of lucidity.. all harmfull activities that consume energy and leave no room for any prospective memory) certain techniques do escape the requirement of Prospective Memory. You have definitely peaked my interest. Can you name a few? So the problem is that it's difficult to set our cues because we don't know what dream signs will show up on any given night, and the generality of any dream sign is a very weak cue. But I've figured out a way around that, which I'll include when I do the write-up for the updated version of MILD. Not to put you under any pressure here, But i'm really looking forward to that!

[Nailler]

If it's okay with you, I'd like to point some particular stuff you said: Absolutely okay. I sincerely appreciate your input... and learned a few things from it. I'm aware that I am oversimplifying some things, but after wading through page after page of academic studies, I'm determined to keep it simple. I'll never understand why academics insist on writing in as incomprehensible style as possible. currently, you have a significant percentage of lucid dreams whose source is inconclusive ("what made you reality check?", "what reminded you that you had gone to bed some hours ago?". True enough. But I believe the vast majority of intentional lucid dreams come about as a result of prospective memory kicking in. When all the conditions are optimum, even a relatively weak intention, voiced or not voiced can lead to lucidity. The bottom line seems to be that the primary difference between the waking and sleeping state is memory, and so introducing memory by any means can result in lucidity. There's right away one key dependence of prospective memory: retrospective memory. For one first to kick in, the other one must work, as you can't recall a future intention without recalling what intention it is. I think this was once thought to be the case, but from what I've read the current belief-- assuming we're talking about the same thing here-- is that prospective memory is an independent function with it's own allotted RAM, so to speak. Wish I had time to respond further as I appreciate your take on the subject. I've been a bad dog today with regards to my other responsibilities. I think you in particular, will have some "ah-ha" moments when you see some of the other things, relative to LDIng, that I've learned from recent studies on the subject.

[Nailler]

Not to put you under any pressure here, But i'm really looking forward to that Pretty sure I won't disappoint. I plan on writing a few more background posts first so the technique itself will make sense to everybody.

[Dthoughts]

Pretty sure I won't disappoint. I plan on writing a few more background posts first so the technique itself will make sense to everybody. Promises, promises! I am going to sleep now. I expect hardcover books by tomorrow morning.

[Zoth]

Really abstract thought here, I hope i'm not shooting myself in the foot.. But.. There might be a relationship to prospective memory which triggers the protein release? So in effect, much better sleep is reported when the protein is released on a consciousness cue rather than a physical cue from the body which needs to wake up for whatever reason. If the body has to wake itself up i think it means the consciousness is not acting in accordance with the body. (unconscious sleep. dreams of intense desire without a shred of lucidity.. all harmfull activities that consume energy and leave no room for any prospective memory) No, it's actual a pretty good question, I've wondered about that as well! A definitive answer would be provided by an analysis of the CLOCK and BMAL1 genes (they regulate the fluctuation of PER) and the conclusion that they too have impact on PM, something we still don't know. While in one hand PER seems to influence long-term memory, on the other it seems highly implausible the idea of using PM based on time with biological clocks. You have definitely peaked my interest. Can you name a few? Incubation, EILD (direct incorporation makes it so not using PM is no longer unrealistic), simple recognition memory techniques...even long-term lucid dreamers can react with lucidity without PM due to simple conditioning. Also, you can tell whether PM is "kicking in" or not in many lucid dream reports: become especially alert to the "I become lucid" antecedent: did the person realized that they were dreaming (due possibly cue association) or did they actually remembered they had to respond to the cue? Subtle differences, but the difference between a MILD or another technique, PM usage or simple retrospective memory product. I think this was once thought to be the case, but from what I've read the current belief-- assuming we're talking about the same thing here-- is that prospective memory is an independent function with it's own allotted RAM, so to speak. Do you have the study that mentions that? According to Daniel 1990 (one of the top experts on the topic), RM is indeed used on PM. At the same time, Burgess, P.W. & Shallice's review also showed no independent functioning, so you got me curious. The bottom line seems to be that the primary difference between the waking and sleeping state is memory, and so introducing memory by any means can result in lucidity. This is why oversimplification is dangerous: Memory is too of a vague term here, as there are many types of memory that seem perfectly intact during the whole duration of dreams, like semantic memory. On the other hand, how can we introduce memory? Even if you recall everything you did related to a cue (like why are you seeing your cousin in front of you when she lives in the other side of the country) does not induced lucidity. Also, this study reveals self-reflective functions as the correlates of lucidity. Observing that one can become lucid even without memory, how do you account for this? I think you in particular, will have some "ah-ha" moments when you see some of the other things, relative to LDIng, that I've learned from recent studies on the subject. This topic was certainly a positive surprise, so will also look forward to your next ones

[Sageous]

Great OP and thread Nailler! Memory is hands-down the most forgotten aspect of LD'ing, and any conversation about it is extremely valuable -- especially when folks like Zoth chime in! I look forward to your promised posts! Anyway... Here's my theory, on WILD and prospective memory, and I could be wrong. Maybe Sageous will offer an opinion. I agree that present memory plays a key role in WILDing, but from time to time during the natural phenomenon of present memory (awareness) turning off kicks in. It's at these moments that prospective memory kicks in and the intention to remain aware is again realized. If prospective memory fails at this point, the dive fails. Seems like a good theory to me, but there could be a modest flaw in it. WILD is very much a "Here & Now" sort of event, and if you are able to maintain self-awareness and focus (or "present memory," though that term seems kind of oxymoronic to me) throughout the dive, then prospective memory is not necessary. Indeed, I'm not entirely sure you can set a "remain awake" prospective memory cue, because the memory likely would occur too late, and you might wind up in a FA, dreaming that you are remaining awake (that bit sounded a lot better in my head; I hope it makes sense to you). However, if you lose focus or self-awareness (aka, you fell fully asleep) during your dive attempt and your WILD necessarily fails, a little implanted prospective memory to simply ask if this is a dream would encourage a subsequent DILD. Also, a fully involved WILDer will very likely unconsciously set a prospective memory cue to "know" she is dreaming, regardless of doing a prospective memory exercise on purpose. In fact, I have a feeling that a great many WILDs are not WILDs at all, but rather failed WILDs followed by a prospective memory-induced DILDs. tl;dr: From my perspective, prospective memory is not a necessary tool for a WILD attempt, but including, say, an intention to confirm that you made it to the dream would certainly be valuable...and I have a feeling that dedicated WILDers are doing this anyway, whether they know it or not.

[Nailler]

Do you have the study that mentions that? According to Daniel 1990 (one of the top experts on the topic), RM is indeed used on PM. At the same time, Burgess, P.W. & Shallice's review also showed no independent functioning, so you got me curious. I was reading mostly for my own edification, so I didn't make footnotes other than for a few particularity applicable studies. I recall reading about two schools of thought on the subject. One postulated that the retrieval phase of proactive memory was entirely automatic. As a side note, there were other areas on the topic wherein experts disagreed, or experiments led to conflicting conclusions. Also, this study reveals self-reflective functions as the correlates of lucidity. I'm not sure I understand what is meant by "self-reflective functions." Please elaborate. Observing that one can become lucid even without memory, how do you account for this? I don't know that one can become lucid without memory. Can you give me an example?

[Nailler]

Indeed, I'm not entirely sure you can set a "remain awake" prospective memory cue, because the memory likely would occur too late... Sageous, Thank you for the response. Perhaps what I described is more MY WILD experience. I tend to drift off, but then somehow I am returned to the task... as least when the dive is successful. I don't know how else to account for that happening. I would seem that once I was gone, lacking some intervention of memory of the task, I would stay gone. In any case, what I've learned about prospective memory is far more applicable to DILD approaches than to WILD. I have a feeling that dedicating WILDers are doing this anyway, whether they know it or not. In studying prospective memory, I became aware of how often it comes into play, not just in LDing, but in everyday life. Prospective memory can be set by simply noticing that it's the last roll of toilet paper... it doesn't always take a mantra. I'm excited about sharing with you more of what I've learned in researching prospective memory. No doubt some of it, although new to me, will be old hat to you, Zoth and others who've studied the subject extensively, but there are a few tidbits I stumbled upon that are hugely applicable to LDing, and I'm pretty sure they'll be new to you lot. Later, Niall

[Nailler]

Follow up post:http://www.dreamviews.com/attaining-...ml#post2095867

[Bobblehat]

That discovery, coupled with one of those "bolt from the blue" moments of insight opened the door to a very direct and simple approach to the MILD technique that I just began experimenting with last week. So far my success record is 4 for 5. I think Einstein said (or maybe Facebook just says Einstein said ) that every good idea should be able to be expressed in a sentence. Can you express the whole idea in a sentence? Or, failing that, at least do a "tl;dr" of the whole idea in one paragraph? Cheers.

[Nailler]

"I think Einstein said (or maybe Facebook just says Einstein said ) that every good idea should be able to be expressed in a sentence." You've noticed that too, huh? In my experience the vast majority of quotes on Facebook that are attributed to famous people are bogus. One of my favorites: "Don't believe everything you read on Facebook. - Thomas Jefferson" One sentence: Prospective memory is the primary driver of all DILD LDing success.

[Laurelindo]

Maybe you can regularly ask the question "does this make sense?" to become lucid? This question should at least make you more aware of what's going on around you at that moment.

[VagalTone]

I think it's extremely complex to understand the relationship between memory, awareness, and other mental processes that have great implications on LDing. My main premise is that prospective memory doesn´t stand alone - and perhaps we will never find something like that - as it must depend on other mental processes. I think we can´t train prospective memory without training at the same time attention skills, motivation, etc....So we are developing many things. You can say you are developing PM-and that may be true- but it's just a name to designate a web of intricate, interdependent mental faculties. That comes close to the concept of emptiness ( shunyata ) which says that nothing stands by itself without depending on other things ( ie. dependent arising ). But again - by using your PM approach you may be developing a whole range of things that will impact lucidity. You may really find a satisfying approach. What i really don´t buy into is the concept of the ultimate universal technique or mechanism - there are too many engining pieces, perhaps working in synchrony, and we are just beginning to uncover them

[Bobblehat]

. Prospective memory, on the other hand, remains turned on while we sleep. This is evidenced by the fact that most people can successfully will themselves to wake up at a particular time, or perhaps they wake up seconds before the alarm clock sounds. But when we vow to wake up at a certain time, isn't the PM functioning from within non-rem sleep rather than rem?

[Laurelindo]

But when we vow to wake up at a certain time, isn't the PM functioning from within non-rem sleep rather than rem? As far as I know, it should work during REM as well since we tend to be in REM right before we wake up. Therefore I think it is reasonable to assume that PM is at work during the last REM stage, and makes us aware anough to wake ourselves up at the desired time. In any case, I am fascinated that we call decide to wake up at a certain time like that, how is that possible? It must have something to do with our feel for the light intensity, and when there is a certain brightness at a certain time depending on the time of the year then we might "recognize" that brightness and associate it with different times - for example, in my hometown the sun is starting to rise at around half past five right now, so maybe my eyes are reacting to the beginning of sunrise and tell my brain that it's half past five at that point, and then this gives me some time perspective and allows me to guess later times as well? "Ah, my eyes are starting to register faint light outside, this means it's half past five!"? At least that's the most concrete explanation I can think of, since we don't actually see the time before we wake up.

[Nailler]

You can say you are developing PM-and that may be true- but it's just a name to designate a web of intricate, interdependent mental faculties That was my belief prior to studying the literature on the subject. I came away with the understanding that PM is a relatively simple mental process, the purpose of which is to help us remember to remember future tasks without cluttering up our day-to-day awareness. The main interdependency seems to be that it requires a certain amount of "attentional" resources, what I'm calling "attention units" to function properly. For example, if you need to remember to remember an appointment next Thursday at 3pm, and when that times comes you're running ragged from work or school, the mechanism is likely to fail for lack of free attention units. It's not so much that PM is a complex subject, but rather we fail to recognize it's simplicities. Think of PM as a very basic alarm system. The importance that we assign to a future task sets the alarm so that we will remember to remember it when that future time comes. The details of the task are parked away, out pf sight, in our prospective memory bank until the PM mechanism is called upon retrieve them. PM is largely automatic. We can exercise it, but we don't really "train" it anymore than we train out eyelids to blink. PM isn't allocated that much mental RAM or processing power, and it takes a back seat when other, more important mental functions are in play. This is why if you need to later in the day, stop at the store for more than just a few items you have to make a list. What i really don´t buy into is the concept of the ultimate universal technique or mechanism... I agree, if we're talking about LDing in general, but when it comes to becoming lucid via a DILD technique, it's mostly about PM and things that support PM.

[Nailler]

But when we vow to wake up at a certain time, isn't the PM functioning from within non-rem sleep rather than rem? Interesting point. I know that PM works quite well for me when I need to wake up as I would normally at the end of a REM period. On the other hand if I have to wake up at some ungodly hour, more than likely from an NREM period, I need to set an alarm.

[Nailler]

In any case, I am fascinated that we call decide to wake up at a certain time like that, how is that possible? That is the cool thing about the PM mechanism. But we use our PM alarm for many other things as well. For example, you tell somebody you'll call them when a package arrives. You don't from then on remain aware that you need to call them when the package arrives. Instead you leave that task to your PM alarm. When the package arrives, your PM alarm goes off, and you remember to call your friend. It works the same when we decide that we want to remember to recognize when we're dreaming. By deciding that's important to us, we in effect assign the task to our PM machine. Later, when and if something comes along in the dream that cues that PM task, the alarm goes off and we remember to recognize that we're dreaming. The main difficulty is setting things up so that the cue shows up when we need it to.