Thread: Question regarding REM cycles and how to find them?

So I know that we actually wake up after every REM cycle throughout the night, but we usually don't remember it. Well a few nights ago, I did actually fully wake up in the middle of the night, so I figured that was the end of one of my cycles. I attempted a WILD (although not successful).

As someone trying to master WILD, I know that it is important to find the start of my REM cycles, however I don't know how to do this. Is there any way that I can use a mantra or something to "train" myself to fully wake up after every REM cycle?

I'm a bit of a newb, but the best way is to use alarms. Guess about 2-3 hour gaps and set alarms. What happens is that you start to anticipate the alarms and wake up after REM automatically. Sometimes alarms go off during REM which kind of sucks as it leaves you in a bad mode.

After using alarms for awhile, you'll notice you wake up automatically without the alarms. Best thing to do is see what time you wake up and note it in a journal.

I haven't mastered much about dreaming, but I have managed to find my cycles.

EDIT: if you have a mobile device, preferably a laptop, you can find free applications that allow you to set multiple alarms which is preferable to a single alarm clock.

This is my favorite for my laptop: Free Alarm Clock - Free download and software reviews - CNET Download.com

I usually set an alarm like 2-3am then another 4-5am, then a wake up alarm at 7am. If I go off the alarms, I'll wake up naturally. You can also change the alarm sounds, so if you want to wean yourself off the alarms you can go to a softer sound, say instead of a blasting alert you could have birds chirping.

Hope that helps.

I don't know how to do this. Is there any way that I can use a mantra or something to "train" myself to fully wake up after every REM cycle?

It's all about intention and motivation. If you want to wake up after every rem phase badly, you will. I naturally wake up after 4,5 hours of sleep every day and I need to use will power to stand up and doing my induction techniques. In the time of increased motivation, I do dream recall and typing dreams every rem phase. I don't recommend you to use alarm, it can hit deep sleep phase and your upcoming day is ruined.

You actually wake up after every REM phase automatically anyway - no need for alarms to get that effect. Just usually we don't do anything else than turn over and sleep on and forget about it.
You need a pre-set intention to notice it, and arouse yourself fully, and note down the time, and journal your dream.

Mantras/self-suggestions going to bed will work. "I wake up after every dream I vividly remember it, and write it down" or some such for several times. After a while you have the usual times, when your REMs end, at least the more important for LDing later ones.

Take a look on Wikipedia about sleep cycles, REM and non-REM, so you can understand how it all fits together and get an idea about duration and quantities. Then you should be able to plot it down - given you have a regular sleep cycle.


By the way - BatteryCharged - if you wake up in the middle of a REM phase, it doesn't suck, you are very lucky, because you can hold completely still and keep your eyes closed and do a DEILD, if you have autosnooze (like Alarm Clock Buddy Pro for I-Phone). Such multiple alarms make sense only in the pursuit of DEILDs in my eyes.

Originally Posted by StephL

By the way - BatteryCharged - if you wake up in the middle of a REM phase, it doesn't suck, you are very lucky, because you can hold completely still and keep your eyes closed and do a DEILD, if you have autosnooze (like Alarm Clock Buddy Pro for I-Phone). Such multiple alarms make sense only in the pursuit of DEILDs in my eyes.

I agree with Nfri, if you are awoken during deep sleep it will make you feel tired the next day. So alarms can affect having a good restful sleep.

I couldn't get my REM cycles without alarms. I'm just too deep of a sleeper. I may wake, but if I'm not hopped up on caffeine, I won't be awake for long. Your body's inclination is to go back to sleep, and if it's too strong, you'll stay asleep.

Alarms are very effective in determining your cycles as it gives you an external push to wake up. Just the anticipation of the alarm keeps you alert to when you wake.

Congrats if your sleep is that shallow that you can control when you wake. I recommend alarms at least early on in discovering your sleep patterns. Otherwise you'll just keep sleeping through it, wondering why your "will power" isn't waking you up.

@ber5897:

If you haven't already, you should take a look at this thread about Anchors and WILD.

I link directly to the post written by sivason, which I specially liked because it let me know something I didn't, even after reading many WILD tutorials and guides (maybe I missed the information, misunderstood it, or simply, wasn't there):

Quoting:
"... then you wait through the stages of sleep until you get to a point where you can dream ..."


Thread: http://www.dreamviews.com/wake-initi...ml#post1899770


I though that in WILD you just stayed there and transitioned from awake to asleep, and as I understand it's not like that. Maybe you even have to wait 30 minutes, and not because you're trying to relax, but just because first you have to skip previous stages until you reach REM again.

Correct me if I'm wrong but as I understand, this is why it's important to do this method after some hours of sleep, or right before a REM.

On the few times I tried WILD, I always give up after many minutes there with no result.., or just fall asleep. Maybe something similar is happening to you, so I hope this helps.

I think you guys might be putting a bit too much weight on the REM periods.

Yes, it is important to catch them, but if you attempt a WILD after, say, 5 hours of sleep, you likely will be very close to your next REM period anyway.

Also, WILD is all about patience. If it takes a while to get back to sleep in the morning, try to endure the wait (my usual "give-up" time is after about 90 minutes). And if your body falls asleep without a REM period present, a brief period of NREM is not a bad place to be (I find it very peaceful) while you wait for the next REM period.

On top of that, if your head is in the right place, and you have strong expectations/intentions, it doesn't really matter if your WILD attempt failed because REM wasn't around or sleep was initially too difficult to attain. Why? Because you will more than likely end up having a DILD, making your quest for lucidity a success, even if you didn't get there quite how you planned.

tl;dr: Don't be too concerned about your REM period; attempt your WILD after more than 5 hours of sleep, and catching REM probably won't be a problem.

Sageous, that's a good point. I really should just be focusing on actually making it through the transition phase of WILD, as that is what I seem to be having the most trouble with. I seem to hit a wall during every attempt that I can't get past.

^^ Walls can be a bitch, can't they?

In case it might be any help, I suggest you look over the WILD class I did here a while back; maybe something there might help put a dent in that wall...

If you do, you'll probably notice that I don't talk much about the transition phase in the class. That's because the entire WILD is a transition phase; in your case that might be a good perspective to consider, even if you disagree with the premise.

Haha yes, they definitely are. I'm actually just getting back into LDing after quite a bit of time off, so I think it's a really good idea to go back and look through your WILD class again. Thanks!

Edit: I went back and took a quick glance at your WILD tutorial before I go to bed, and I really think this part might be of value to me:

Vibrations et al are, well, just noise. Period. Any psychic/cosmic/astrophysical explanations or deep meaning you might attach to them might sound good in the dream journal or on websites, but in the end those Vibrations et al are simply your witnessing of bodily events to which you are not naturally privy. I’m not sure that I can honestly attach value to Vibrations et al in the context of WILD, because they truthfully are nothing more than a distraction, especially if you’re the sort who chooses to attach meaning to them. At best they are another mile-marker, and I think that if you see them as such then you will find yourself more able to allow them to come and go as they will without interfering with your effort to hold onto your awareness.

I think this may be the reason I keep hitting that wall. I feel like I need to learn to let go of all value that I put on the "noise" because they seem to be doing nothing but interfering with my attempt. Can't wait for my next attempt tonight!

I am going to try an experiment tonight. I have a surveillance camera that has night vision. I'm going to record myself sleeping. Each time at the end of my REM cycle I'm going to attempt to raise my arm to indicate the end of the cycle. Also, instead of a journal I'm going to say out loud what my dreams were.

It should give an interesting perspective on the actual time frame of my sleep patterns.

sage,

I'm going back over your tutorials. One issue I have is your comment "We all know our own sleep cycles, given that we live through them every night."

I honestly didn't really know my cycles until this last month. And that's because of sites like this one.

I actually got the advice to use alarms from either here or another similar site to find my cycles. And they really helped. I found out that NREM I have no recalled dreams. I found I have 2 times that I typically wake after NREM and that they vary in the dreams I have.

If I sleep through one I won't remember it. It's like a double matinee.

Without alarms it's hit or miss.

^^ That's an interesting experiment, BatterCharged; I hope you can share its results with us!

I understand your point about the alarms, and use them if they work for you -- every rule has its exceptions, after all! But I believe that when I said that we all know our sleep cycle, I was specifically downplaying any real set of rules for specifically minding their timing -- which is sort of what I said above.

Yes, it would be most excellent to land right smack into a REM period every time we WILD, but I truly think it is better to focus globally on your WILD attempts (aka doing the mental prep and getting your mind in the right place for LD'ing) and then try a WILD when your REM periods are close together enough to most likely bump into one. That way you remain focused on the dream, and not on distracting details like exactly catching REM.

But do what works for you, as that is most important!

Well, I tried the video surveillance and I managed to not hit record. So I'll try again tonight.

The one thing I noticed was how hard it was to raise my hand and speak out loud. It took some effort. It was similar to SP, I wanted to do it but I had to force my body to respond.

Elite. Can you try it again with Lucid Scribe and the Halovision plugin? It should automatically graph and log the amount of change between each frame and make it a little easier to find when you raised your arm. Start with the motion detector algorithm - it can play an audio track when you raise your arm...