Secret to frequent lucid dreaming (supposedly)

**mimihigurashi** · 11-07-2014 10:23 PM

Found this post by Robert Waggoner on another lucid dreaming site, which I don't think I'm allowed to post a link to, so I'll paste the post here

The Secret of Frequent Lucid Dreamers by Robert Waggoner
Why do some dreamers immediately take to lucid dreaming, while others struggle to achieve lucidity even once?

I thought about this question recently when interviewing a young Norwegian woman, Line Salvesen, for The Lucid Dream Exchange. She claims to have about fifteen hundred lucid dreams a year. For most of us who average three or four lucid dreams a month, fifteen hundred per year sounds incredible!

She’s not the only person, though. Over the years, I have met a number of ultra-frequent lucid dreamers, on-line and in person. Curious about their ability, I began to search for some common characteristics – something to explain this high frequency. I noticed how they often assumed everyone dreamt lucidly, and felt shocked to learn this was not the case. In some cases, their frequent lucid dreaming could be traced back to persistent childhood nightmares where they learned how to achieve lucidity to deal with nightmare scenarios. In other cases, their frequent lucid dreaming seemed connected to certain waking mental habits.

Recalling my carefree college days studying behavioral psychology and reading Carlos Castaneda, I went from 3 to 8 lucid dreams a month to a high of 30 lucid dreams per month at my peak – all of which I nicely charted as a budding behaviorist. Some of this increase I could attribute to the use of the MILD technique. But decades later, when I began meeting ultra-frequent lucid dreamers, I began to feel a bit deflated, quantitatively speaking. How did they achieve lucidity so frequently?

Then a mini-epiphany came to me.
One day, reading an email from an ultra-frequent lucid dreamer, and feeling a tinge of envy mixed with curiosity I responded, “How? How do you become lucidly aware in almost every dream?” The lucid dreamer wrote that she had a consistent habit of asking herself repeatedly, “What was I just doing?” This mental habit carried over to her dreaming awareness, such that in the dream she would pose this exact question to herself, “What was I just doing?” Searching her mind, she realized she had been preparing for sleep, so therefore, she must be dreaming!

At that moment, a little light went on in my brain. Ultra-frequent lucid dreamers develop a lucid mindset.
A lucid mindset means a persistent mental habit of re-examining one’s perceived environment or state of awareness. Whether it involved memory or vigilance (e.g., Am I safe here from nightmares?), these ultra frequent lucid dreamers repeatedly checked or analyzed their current situation.

For some, numerous nightmares apparently reinforced the need to differentiate waking from dreaming, and allowed them to become highly attuned to dream state cues that would prompt lucid awareness. This habitual need to examine their state (waking or dreaming) naturally led to lucid dreaming, as a positive way to handle nightmares. Done with consistency over time, a lucid mindset developed, which became an unconscious and routine part of their dreaming life.

As for the lucid dreamer who consistently questioned herself to remember her last action, we find another type of lucid mindset. Here, she performs not so much a ‘reality check’ as a memory check that leads to a reality check! Her questioning leads her to re-examine more thoroughly her environment or current state, and she becomes lucid. Whatever the underlying motivation, certain habitual mental patterns lead these ultra-frequent lucid dreamers to examine their perceived environment or current state more closely.

So how can you use this knowledge to become a more frequent lucid dreamer? How can you work towards developing a lucid mindset? Or do you have a touch of a lucid mindset already, which you just haven’t noticed?

Next, we’ll explore these ‘critical questions’ and see how we can develop our lucid mind.
When you read the papers of the late Gestalt psychologist and lucid dream researcher, Paul Tholey, you discover a pioneer in developing a lucid mindset. (Again, I define a lucid mindset as a persistent mental habit of re-examining one’s perceived environment or state of awareness. This re-examination naturally leads to conscious awareness in the dream state.)

In 1959, Tholey wondered if he could bring conscious awareness into the dream state by asking himself numerous times during the day, “Am I awake, or am I dreaming?” Reasoning that this question would occur to him in a dream, he then might become critically aware and conscious in the dream. After about a month’s consistent repetition of this question, he succeeded with his ‘Reflection Technique’ and became lucid.

Some lucid dreamers have begun to call Tholey’s, “Am I awake, or am I dreaming,” the Critical Question.

It definitely seems ‘a’ critical question about one’s state – but it does not appear to be the only one, or the only one that leads to lucid awareness.

As previously mentioned, one ultra frequent lucid dreamer routinely asks, “What was I just doing?” This memory check prompts her lucid awareness, as she realizes she had been going to sleep, so this must be a dream. For her, the ‘Critical Question’ that elicits greater critical awareness is a memory check about activity.

Other ultra frequent lucid dreamers appear to develop greater vigilance as a result of frequent nightmares in childhood. Apparently, they habitually scour the perceived environment to determine if they are dreaming, and therefore possible prey for nightmarish figures. Perhaps their ‘Critical Question’ might be, ‘Am I safe here?’ or some expression of vigilant awareness which naturally leads to lucidity.

A lucid dreamer from the Ukraine told me of dream-mapping or trying to map out the dream locale of each lucid dream. Those who practice this technique frequently become lucid by asking themselves in a dream, “Where am I? What is this place?”

I imagine that young Buddhist monks learn to develop a lucid mindset when they repeatedly hear, ‘all of this is like a dream.’ If you consistently consider all perceived environments to be ‘like a dream,’ then you may enhance your ability to discern dreaming as being ‘like a dream’ and become consciously aware in it.

In my experience, I began to develop a lucid mindset after reading the works of Jane Roberts, who put forth that our perceived experience came as a direct outgrowth of our beliefs, thoughts and feelings. Therefore, understanding our experience required an investigation of our beliefs, thoughts and feelings. So when something notable would happen in my waking life, I would wonder, “Why did I create this? How does this relate to my beliefs, thoughts or feelings?” Like Tholey, these same questions began seeping into my dream life, prompting lucid awareness, as I re-considered an outlandish event and determined ‘This could only occur in a dream!’

These examples show how a lucid dreamer can easily develop a lucid mindset. By consciously adopting a Critical Question that appeals to you and requires you to re-examine your experience and by using it consistently during the day, it transfers to your dreaming and causes you to re-examine the dream experience. This questioning mindset naturally leads you to lucid awareness.

The Critical Question does not have to be philosophical; it can be simple, like ‘What was I just doing?’ or ‘Where am I?’ However it must be used consistently during waking hours.

Imagine an entire society and culture persistently asking a Critical Question. Maybe over time, lucid dreaming will lead to a worldwide lucid mindset,

Robert Waggoner

What are your thoughts on this? The woman's Critical Question of "what was I just doing" reminds me of Sageous' reverse reality check. Has anyone here tried this critical question thing until it occurred in their dream and made them lucid?

**VagalTone** · 11-08-2014 12:35 AM

Don´t forget that woman had a neurotic habit. But yes, any neurotic habit will probably help with lucidity. And that´s probably why trait anxiety is associated with lucidity, as you are scanning the environment, always hypervigilant. But i can´t promise you won´t deplete your willpower resources and give up on LDing altogether. And believe me, that´s something too much common. Sorry for this too pessimistic outlook

We should use our begginer enthusiasm about LDing to discover what is common to all experiences, therefore attaining 24 hour lucidity
The one to blame here is the power to know, awareness itself, which is untainted by whatever the experience, and indivisible from it. When you are sad, it doesn´t become sad, when you are happy, it doesn´t become happy. When you are in deep sleep, it remains ( harder to recognize of course) and when you are dreaming it´s just the same thing as waking life - it shines through and as every perception. If you create the habit to find the light of your mind while awake then you will also recognize while asleep.

**OneUp** · 11-08-2014 03:25 AM

I've actually read this exact article before, and I even mentioned it in one of my past threads about Self Awareness, and I have to say man, every bit of it is true! As I have told many, when I was at my peak with Self Awareness, I was getting lucid at least once a night and semi-lucid in most of my REM dreams of the night. I discovered one thing with that technique/mindset though, it was mentally tiring to keep up. I could keep it up with no problem, but because of school and all of the work and stress attributed with it, I began going downhill with my self awareness. Every day because of school I would find myself exhausted and completely done with everything.
I was so tired everyday that I would come home and take a 2 and a half hour nap. This was leaving me half dead though still, everyday because I kept on changing my sleep schedule. I didn't have a choice though considering the hours of homework that my teachers give every night. In the end, I gave up my best efforts with Self Awareness.
I decided to try something out, since I didn't have time for the techniques associated with lucid dreaming, I went ahead and tried out nothing. By nothing I mean everynight I would go to bed and just have the intention to have a lucid dream. I wouldn't think about it really, or worry, I would just go to bed. I was surprised by the results this brought. Lets just say I still use this "nothing" technique now, and it gives about 1 LD a night. You haven't seen my LD count jump yet, but thats merely because I don't usually journal all of my LDs considering I don't remember a good amount of each one of them. However, I am planning to go back to dedicated dream journaling very soon, so that will change.
My point in all of this is: there is great potential in the right mindset. The reason those "natural" lucid dreamers have LDs every night without any effort is because they thought it was normal, and that everyone did it. The kind of mindset helps so much, and I can verify it with some personal experience, but only time will tell how much power is in the mindset, and if natural lucid dreamers really are special in that sense. I have a feeling lucid dreaming is no where near as hard as we make it. After all, its just a mental activity, and just like any other mental activity we can achieve it instantly without problems.
So, in the end, my two cents would be that, yes it is possible to become an "Ultra-frequent" lucid dreamer just by doing what one of the lucid dreamers mentioned in the article did- nothing. I know for a fact that I am going to get alot of negative feedback towards my response, because most oneironauts feel that what I have proposed is impossible and utterly stupid. If that were the fact that I would not have the progress I have today.

**mimihigurashi** · 11-08-2014 10:35 AM

Originally Posted by VagalTone

Don´t forget that woman had a neurotic habit. But yes, any neurotic habit will probably help with lucidity. And that´s probably why trait anxiety is associated with lucidity, as you are scanning the environment, always hypervigilant. But i can´t promise you won´t deplete your willpower resources and give up on LDing altogether. And believe me, that´s something too much common. Sorry for this too pessimistic outlook

We should use our begginer enthusiasm about LDing to discover what is common to all experiences, therefore attaining 24 hour lucidity
The one to blame here is the power to know, awareness itself, which is untainted by whatever the experience, and indivisible from it. When you are sad, it doesn´t become sad, when you are happy, it doesn´t become happy. When you are in deep sleep, it remains ( harder to recognize of course) and when you are dreaming it´s just the same thing as waking life - it shines through and as every perception. If you create the habit to find the light of your mind while awake then you will also recognize while asleep.

You're right, it's not exactly normal to be paranoid throughout the day. Awareness itself? From that description it sounds to me like you're talking about the silent watcher that's "inside everyone's head". You mean that? Because I've been at that level of awareness before and good god, it is ridiculously difficult to stay there.

Originally Posted by OneUp

I've actually read this exact article before, and I even mentioned it in one of my past threads about Self Awareness, and I have to say man, every bit of it is true! As I have told many, when I was at my peak with Self Awareness, I was getting lucid at least once a night and semi-lucid in most of my REM dreams of the night. I discovered one thing with that technique/mindset though, it was mentally tiring to keep up. I could keep it up with no problem, but because of school and all of the work and stress attributed with it, I began going downhill with my self awareness. Every day because of school I would find myself exhausted and completely done with everything.
I was so tired everyday that I would come home and take a 2 and a half hour nap. This was leaving me half dead though still, everyday because I kept on changing my sleep schedule. I didn't have a choice though considering the hours of homework that my teachers give every night. In the end, I gave up my best efforts with Self Awareness.
I decided to try something out, since I didn't have time for the techniques associated with lucid dreaming, I went ahead and tried out nothing. By nothing I mean everynight I would go to bed and just have the intention to have a lucid dream. I wouldn't think about it really, or worry, I would just go to bed. I was surprised by the results this brought. Lets just say I still use this "nothing" technique now, and it gives about 1 LD a night. You haven't seen my LD count jump yet, but thats merely because I don't usually journal all of my LDs considering I don't remember a good amount of each one of them. However, I am planning to go back to dedicated dream journaling very soon, so that will change.
My point in all of this is: there is great potential in the right mindset. The reason those "natural" lucid dreamers have LDs every night without any effort is because they thought it was normal, and that everyone did it. The kind of mindset helps so much, and I can verify it with some personal experience, but only time will tell how much power is in the mindset, and if natural lucid dreamers really are special in that sense. I have a feeling lucid dreaming is no where near as hard as we make it. After all, its just a mental activity, and just like any other mental activity we can achieve it instantly without problems.
So, in the end, my two cents would be that, yes it is possible to become an "Ultra-frequent" lucid dreamer just by doing what one of the lucid dreamers mentioned in the article did- nothing. I know for a fact that I am going to get alot of negative feedback towards my response, because most oneironauts feel that what I have proposed is impossible and utterly stupid. If that were the fact that I would not have the progress I have today.

Interesting. So self awareness is that draining huh? Not really surprising, I started taking it rather very seriously since yesterday, I have to kinda force myself to remain mindful because it's so easy to get distracted. Yesterday I was mindful about 75-80% of the day and damn, was it tiresome. Fortunately my sleep schedule is stable and I have a good amount of free time and minimal stress so I hope it won't be as bad as it was for you, and hopefully it gets easier after a while.
As for the intention thing, I don't think it's impossible or stupid, the thing is, I think it has some prerequisites, specifically, good (self) awareness and (prospective?) memory. Maybe the reason why the intention worked so well for you is because you had already trained your awareness so much before?

**VagalTone** · 11-08-2014 11:44 AM

Oh yes, don't try to be mindful all day long - just short moments many times. Short moments to keep it natural and uncontrived.

You arre correct, i am ponting to awareness itself, which is always stable and the basis of every perception, just like the mirror is the basis of its images. It's so simple and close that we miss it all the time, like our own eyelashes.
You don't have to do anything besides recognizing it for short moments many times, amidst the current experience.
With practice it will become obvious and you don't feel like doing anything. That's the practice of uncontrived natural self awareness. It should feel close to lucid dreaming, in the sense that you allow every thing to be as it is, fearlessly, only you are awake.
You can think of it like a true reality check.

**Nfri** · 11-08-2014 01:00 PM

The waking habit of recalling ''what was I doing and I had previously been doing'' helps me more with dream recall than with lucidity.

**OneUp** · 11-08-2014 02:21 PM

Interesting. So self awareness is that draining huh? Not really surprising, I started taking it rather very seriously since yesterday, I have to kinda force myself to remain mindful because it's so easy to get distracted. Yesterday I was mindful about 75-80% of the day and damn, was it tiresome. Fortunately my sleep schedule is stable and I have a good amount of free time and minimal stress so I hope it won't be as bad as it was for you, and hopefully it gets easier after a while.
As for the intention thing, I don't think it's impossible or stupid, the thing is, I think it has some prerequisites, specifically, good (self) awareness and (prospective?) memory. Maybe the reason why the intention worked so well for you is because you had already trained your awareness so much before?

Then stick with it man, because its definitely worth it. Its not really tiresome at all, school is just what made it so tiring for me. When school was alot slower I had no problem keeping to Self Awareness until i joined all Pre-Ap classes, which is why I have so much work now. But in all dude, its almost effortless to stick with self awareness after you've been with it for some time, say 2 weeks. Even after those two weeks, two weeks more, that mindset will feel pretty close to second nature. After a month and a week of practice with no breaks I'd say you've got it perfected. This isn't something that "takes years to master" as many would say, its just a mindset.
In the same way, Lucid Dreaming is just you coming to the realization that you are dreaming. It takes literally 1 thought to become lucid in a dream, so thats why I think most people over-analyze alot when it comes to the hobby. It doesn't have to take years of practice, it all depends on what you believe. On the side of using just plain intention, yes I would say that I have amazing prospect memory. Even though I have stopped practicing self awareness, I am still very aware of what is going on, but that wasn't natural for me, it just clicked one day because I realized how easy lucid dreaming is.
So mimihigurashi, what I have to say in the end is: stick with it, stick with it, stick with it. It is well worth the practice.

**mimihigurashi** · 11-08-2014 02:48 PM

Originally Posted by OneUp

Then stick with it man, because its definitely worth it. Its not really tiresome at all, school is just what made it so tiring for me. When school was alot slower I had no problem keeping to Self Awareness until i joined all Pre-Ap classes, which is why I have so much work now. But in all dude, its almost effortless to stick with self awareness after you've been with it for some time, say 2 weeks. Even after those two weeks, two weeks more, that mindset will feel pretty close to second nature. After a month and a week of practice with no breaks I'd say you've got it perfected. This isn't something that "takes years to master" as many would say, its just a mindset.
In the same way, Lucid Dreaming is just you coming to the realization that you are dreaming. It takes literally 1 thought to become lucid in a dream, so thats why I think most people over-analyze alot when it comes to the hobby. It doesn't have to take years of practice, it all depends on what you believe. On the side of using just plain intention, yes I would say that I have amazing prospect memory. Even though I have stopped practicing self awareness, I am still very aware of what is going on, but that wasn't natural for me, it just clicked one day because I realized how easy lucid dreaming is.
So mimihigurashi, what I have to say in the end is: stick with it, stick with it, stick with it. It is well worth the practice.

I see. Definitely sticking with it, am very motivated this time (mainly because I'm sick and tired of not consistently becoming lucid, lol), and you gave me even more motivation, thanks. I'm surprised you say it only takes a few weeks, thought it would take months before it starts becoming a stable habit/mindset. And you're right, I think we do overcomplicate and overanalyze lucid dreaming a lot, which makes us think "oh it's so hard, I need to do so many difficult tasks to get lucid just once in a while", and in turn our brain makes that a reality.

**Bharmo** · 11-08-2014 07:26 PM

Hey! Happy to see you changed your mind about these kind of techniques... Or I think you changed your mind from what you said at the Gravity RC thread

Anyway, I just wanted to link a couple of interesting threads I believe you will enjoy reading on this matter, on the first thread there is some discussion on that article you quoted:
http://www.dreamviews.com/attaining-...ity-check.html
http://www.dreamviews.com/general-lu...roach-ada.html
Good luck!

**mimihigurashi** · 11-08-2014 08:29 PM

Originally Posted by Bharmo

Hey! Happy to see you changed your mind about these kind of techniques... Or I think you changed your mind from what you said at the Gravity RC thread

Anyway, I just wanted to link a couple of interesting threads I believe you will enjoy reading on this matter, on the first thread there is some discussion on that article you quoted:
http://www.dreamviews.com/attaining-...ity-check.html
http://www.dreamviews.com/general-lu...roach-ada.html
Good luck!

Thanks, not sure what you mean by changed my mind though, I do think continuous awareness techniques are the most likely to produce consistent results, although they are the most difficult, but it's worth it. It's just that Gravity RC doesn't work for everyone (the same) since most people's sensations in dreams are different.
Interesting threads, I read Ctharlhie's some time ago. That dreamy feeling sounds dubious to me though, not sure, seems a bit sneaky..
Good luck to you too. I'm gonna need it, this is mentally exhausting for the first several days, lol..

**Bharmo** · 11-08-2014 10:10 PM

Sorry, looks like my memory was not good

By the way, reviewing the Dreamy Feeling thread which discusses more or less the same topic I found out something very similar to what OneUp said about his recent "nothing technique". Here is what he said:

Originally Posted by OneUp

In the end, I gave up my best efforts with Self Awareness.
I decided to try something out, since I didn't have time for the techniques associated with lucid dreaming, I went ahead and tried out nothing. By nothing I mean everynight I would go to bed and just have the intention to have a lucid dream. I wouldn't think about it really, or worry, I would just go to bed. I was surprised by the results this brought. Lets just say I still use this "nothing" technique now, and it gives about 1 LD a night.

I believe OneUp's self awareness technique was basically having in the back of his mind all day the possibility to be dreaming, or something like that, wasn't it?
Now compare with this quote from EWOLD:

«Practice in attaining the critical-reflective frame of mind is only necessary in the beginning phase, which may last a
number of months. Later on, lucid dreams will occur even if the subject has not asked himself the critical
question during the day. The frequency of lucid dreams then depends to a large extent on the will of the
subject. Most subjects who consistently follow the above advice experience at least one lucid dream every night.»

Interesting, isn't it?

**mimihigurashi** · 11-08-2014 10:29 PM

Originally Posted by Bharmo

Sorry, looks like my memory was not good

By the way, reviewing the Dreamy Feeling thread which discusses more or less the same topic I found out something very similar to what OneUp said about his recent "nothing technique". Here is what he said:

I believe OneUp's self awareness technique was basically having in the back of his mind all day the possibility to be dreaming, or something like that, wasn't it?
Now compare with this quote from EWOLD:

Interesting, isn't it?

No problem lol.

Yeah his self awareness must've at least included that. I think practicing a self aware mindset can include multiple different things, such as being mindful of where you are, what you are doing, what's going on around you, the fact that you could be dreaming at any given moment, even your own awareness, etc. It's better to customize your mindfulness practice according to your dreams, imo.
It is interesting and lol, I find it funny how we (people here on DV) use LaBerge's ETWOLD like a sort of Bible for lucid dreaming. What techniques are you practicing btw?

**Bobblehat** · 11-08-2014 10:32 PM

One every night, eh? Yes, very interesting. Surely BS though?

**mimihigurashi** · 11-08-2014 10:46 PM

Originally Posted by Bobblehat

One every night, eh? Yes, very interesting. Surely BS though?

Why would you think it is BS?..

**Bharmo** · 11-08-2014 10:57 PM

Originally Posted by mimihigurashi

It is interesting and lol, I find it funny how we (people here on DV) use LaBerge's ETWOLD like a sort of Bible for lucid dreaming. What techniques are you practicing btw?

He he, yes, you might be right. Actually I distrusted that part of the book as it sounds a bit too good to be true, so it surprised me that what OneUp said seems to back it up.
I've been on and off LDing for the last couple of years, I dropped constant awareness techniques not too long ago, and for the last two weeks I'm on a personal approach which is quite similar to Sageous RRCs plus other little things from here and there.

**Bobblehat** · 11-09-2014 04:57 PM

Originally Posted by mimihigurashi

Why would you think it is BS?..

I'd be surprised if the majority of people experienced nightly LDs just from asking the critical question a lot.

**mimihigurashi** · 11-09-2014 05:20 PM

Originally Posted by Bobblehat

I'd be surprised if the majority of people experienced nightly LDs just from asking the critical question a lot.

Doubt for the majority. LDs via critical question exclusively might work for some people but the majority would probably have to supplement that practice with other techniques.

**Yuusha** · 11-09-2014 07:02 PM

I think one reason why some people end up as naturals is because they are more interested in dreams during childhood.
Most people have an annoying tendency to just go like "cool, I knew I was dreaming - now, back to ordinary life" whenever they spontaneously become lucid, and don't seem to truly understand the potential in it, whereas future "naturals" probably react more like "wow, that was cool!

I totally wanna do it again!" --- I know Stephen LaBerge reacted that way.
So I think that most people get the opportunity to become naturals when they are children, since most people seem to have lots of lucid dreams during childhood, and it's those who actually are truly fascinated by those dreams who get a major headstart.
And since it's often easier to have an open mindset to things when you are very young, you will probably think of lucid dreams as "this cool thing that I can do when I sleep", rather than "this odd phenomenon that only a handful of people seem to be able to do".
That's an important difference.

**VagalTone** · 11-09-2014 10:59 PM

Originally Posted by Yuusha

I think one reason why some people end up as naturals is because they are more interested in dreams during childhood.
Most people have an annoying tendency to just go like "cool, I knew I was dreaming - now, back to ordinary life" whenever they spontaneously become lucid, and don't seem to truly understand the potential in it, whereas future "naturals" probably react more like "wow, that was cool!

I totally wanna do it again!" --- I know Stephen LaBerge reacted that way.
So I think that most people get the opportunity to become naturals when they are children, since most people seem to have lots of lucid dreams during childhood, and it's those who actually are truly fascinated by those dreams who get a major headstart.
And since it's often easier to have an open mindset to things when you are very young, you will probably think of lucid dreams as "this cool thing that I can do when I sleep", rather than "this odd phenomenon that only a handful of people seem to be able to do".
That's an important difference.

That's why i like to talk with kids about LDing. Their minds are so plastic and open, LDing is very common in childhood. If they are explicitly asked to develop their dream skills, i would like to see if their abilities are retained or not till adulthood. But that's an experience i will make when i have a child.

**OneUp** · 11-11-2014 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by Bobblehat

I'd be surprised if the majority of people experienced nightly LDs just from asking the critical question a lot.

Lmao not sure why you doubt it, the simple principle of "You reap what you sow" is what comes into play here. It'd be stupid and pointless as hell to lie about lucid dreaming nightly, what is the point of that? Keep in mind I've been really serious about Lucid Dreaming for the past year, so if you want to diss someone because of their success, go ahead, but I assure you I am not lying about a single thing here.
Take what you want from this, because in the end I'll be succeeding while you plainly say that im BSing everyone.
I will say though, the majority of people probably don't get to the frequency rate of 1 LD per night because they arent focused on the hobby enough nor do they give it the attention that it needs, buts thats all on them.

**Bobblehat** · 11-11-2014 09:41 PM

Set up an experiment in research maybe? Get 100 enthusiastic people to live the word of the ETWOLD section on the critical question:

«Practice in attaining the critical-reflective frame of mind is only necessary in the beginning phase, which may last a
number of months. Later on, lucid dreams will occur even if the subject has not asked himself the critical
question during the day. The frequency of lucid dreams then depends to a large extent on the will of the
subject. Most subjects who consistently follow the above advice experience at least one lucid dream every night.»

Say they do this for six months. I'd be very very surprised if more than 30 percent are having LDs every night. If the route to having LDs every night was regularly asking the CC then there'd only need to be a couple of paragraphs written on LDs - not the scores of websites and books we have now. SLaB has to carefully choose his statistics to make LDing look easier than it really is or nobody would buy his books.

**Bharmo** · 11-11-2014 10:10 PM

Originally Posted by Bobblehat

Set up an experiment in research maybe? Get 100 enthusiastic people to live the word of the ETWOLD section on the critical question:

«Practice in attaining the critical-reflective frame of mind is only necessary in the beginning phase, which may last a
number of months. Later on, lucid dreams will occur even if the subject has not asked himself the critical
question during the day. The frequency of lucid dreams then depends to a large extent on the will of the
subject. Most subjects who consistently follow the above advice experience at least one lucid dream every night.»

Say they do this for six months. I'd be very very surprised if more than 30 percent are having LDs every night. If the route to having LDs every night was regularly asking the CC then there'd only need to be a couple of paragraphs written on LDs - not the scores of websites and books we have now. SLaB has to carefully choose his statistics to make LDing look easier than it really is or nobody would buy his books.

As I first brought that paragraph to the discussion, I have to say that is supposed to be a quote from Paul Tholey, that LaBerge includes in EWOLD when discussing different techniques.
Actually what I find frustrating about LaBerge is how he avoids statistics on effectiveness of techniques.

**Sageous** · 11-12-2014 01:10 AM

Originally Posted by Bobblehat

Say they do this for six months. I'd be very very surprised if more than 30 percent are having LDs every night. If the route to having LDs every night was regularly asking the CC then there'd only need to be a couple of paragraphs written on LDs - not the scores of websites and books we have now. SLaB has to carefully choose his statistics to make LDing look easier than it really is or nobody would buy his books.

This, sadly, is likely very true.

**OneUp** · 11-12-2014 01:55 AM

My theory on why that is the way it is, is because the general lucid dreaming community has made Lucid Dreaming itself play up to be such a hard thing to do, and that it requires so much practice- you guys know this is true. With all respect, I think that alot of training really does over-do the entire thing. Before you even realize it you're stressing to get a reality check done every day.
I think another part of it is the fact that many people do not know the right mindset they need to get into Lucid dreaming. Like holy crap, its all in your head, why should it take so much effort? Its merely a mental task. Even though I know I will get alot of crap for this, I believe SilverBullet had alot of truth in his method of frequent lucid dreams. It all comes down to what you believe. Believing is a strong factor too, considering the fact that the brain is so malleable and can be changed to fit many mindsets.
You also have the possibility that many oneironauts do not know how to approach this hobby in general. Some will stress out their technique and wear themselves out, the same will happen with Dream Journaling. Others will work against themselves psychologically just by doing those things. When I say psychologically, I mean in an LDing sense, because stress never helps out dreaming.
In all I believe it is the approach that is the game changer; if you think its going to be hard, and that fact only makes sense to you, then your journey is going to be a hard one. On the other hand, if you go into the game knowing that you are going to get it and win it, and no matter what success is imminent, and also that the hobby of Lucid Dreaming itself is not hard at all-then you are going to soar.
Its no secret I'd say, but I don't think many people realize the power of the brain and the mental strength and agility that we have. Hope this made sense, typed it up rather fast.

**Yuusha** · 11-12-2014 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by Sageous

Originally Posted by Bobblehat

Say they do this for six months. I'd be very very surprised if more than 30 percent are having LDs every night. If the route to having LDs every night was regularly asking the CC then there'd only need to be a couple of paragraphs written on LDs - not the scores of websites and books we have now. SLaB has to carefully choose his statistics to make LDing look easier than it really is or nobody would buy his books.

This, sadly, is likely very true.

I honestly don't agree about this.
First of all, Stephen LaBerge was actually asked to write EWLD, it wasn't his own idea.
And if you are going to write a book about lucid dreaming then you might as well include as much as possible about the topic.
Books like EWLD are intended to mention the science behind lucid dreaming and several possible ways to become lucid, and LaBerge often stresses the fact that all it really takes to become lucid is to decide to recognize the dreamstate.
And when he describes his dream goggles, like the DreamLight and the NovaDreamer, he often points out that you don't actually need them, and that you should just think of them as a nice aid.

Moreover, LaBerge has said himself that he started out with "less than one lucid dream per month" become he started practicing for real.
And he didn't immediately become lucid "every night" either, it took him three years to get lucid dreams most nights - as you can clearly see on this chart - and that's when he practiced diligently.
I find it completely reasonable that even a beginner would be able to have one lucid dream per week right from the beginning if they do everything right - like having good dream recall, a good sleep schedule, clear goals, and a general motivation and enthusiasm.

I believe that the main difference between ordinary dreamers and natural lucid dreamers is that natural lucid dreamers developed an interest for lucid dreams very early in life, sometime during childhood, and then started trying to get them, and always thought of them as something fun and natural - this would make them have a much more relaxed attitude to lucid dreaming, and thus they would be able to get them much more easily.

It's just like learning to play the guitar;
I learned it from a very early age (6) so I find it completely natural and not the least intimidating in any shape or form whatsoever - not even when I try to learn an extra hard guitar solo - whereas some beginners sometimes think of it as "tricky" and "complicated", and so they lose confidence and do not practice with the right mindset, and find practicing it a chore, which makes it much harder for them.
I think it's very important to start practicing something with the attitude "I will learn this now, and it's alright if it takes time", rather than "oh my god, this seems so complicated and confusing".