Thread: Secrets of the Dream Plane

Originally Posted by WakingNomad

I don't know. I don't know anything, really. But, I have some good guesses!

If you have no reason to believe so, then why do you pretend it's true?

Originally Posted by MindGames

If you have no reason to believe so, then why do you pretend it's true?

Let's compare WN multiverse with the notion that the universe started with a Big Bang.
There are some clues found that might indicate that the universe started with a big bang but in the end saying that the universe started with a big bang is merely a guess based on clues. Yet it is stated in most science books as absolute truth, while it just a guess. The entire scientific knowledge is based on an assumption that the universe started with a big bang, while truthfully there is no way for us to know the universe started with a big bang. Just reason to believe the universe started with a big bang. Perhaps WN has found his own clues that indicate a multiverse excists and it is good enough for him to believe we are in a multiverse. (not that i have any idea how he thinks of this nor do i really care) Nobody is pretending anything, it is just you who pretends you are sane, but imo the only sane people on the planet are the ones that can see beyond their own believe systems and listen to someone else for a change. U are not one of those it seems. Its okay tho, never too late to learn

Oh for something on-topic, say this is actually universal truth. Altho i never seen no illuminati i thought they where just an occult because the general population lacks understanding and tolerance to their ideals. I don't see anything wrong in creating a genetically manipulated superrace. I thought that was our destination anyway.

I have a design for creating a labratory universe to occupy with shared dreaming; here goes:

There is the theory that every action creates a multitude of possible ways it could have occured, and we are prone to observing the one's we choose to see.

Shared dreaming is the idea that one can impose a reality on anothers consciousness by interacting with the astral plane while they are asleep.

Brain-waves are frequencies that correspond to what we are thinking, so logically an induction phenomenon like radio is responsible for shared dreaming, the title post posit's one can continue to induce change in the ether after physical death.

The logical conclusion for attenuating a response here would be to connect the two brainwave patterns of individiuals by something like bineural beats with synchronized reverberations.

Originally Posted by Dthoughts

Let's compare WN multiverse with the notion that the universe started with a Big Bang.
There are some clues found that might indicate that the universe started with a big bang but in the end saying that the universe started with a big bang is merely a guess based on clues.

It's a theory based on evidence. The Big Bang wouldn't be generally regarded as a plausible theory if it didn't have good evidence to support it. You should read up on cosmic microwave background radiation and other evidence that supports the theory.

Yet it is stated in most science books as absolute truth, while it just a guess.

No, it's not. That's why we call it a scientific theory, meaning that it's an explanation for the beginning of the universe based on the evidence at hand. Nowhere in science books will you ever read that the Big Bang is the absolute truth. However, it is not just some random guess. It's an educated guess. Perhaps you should actually study the big bang to see the evidence it has to support it.

The entire scientific knowledge is based on an assumption that the universe started with a big bang, while truthfully there is no way for us to know the universe started with a big bang.

Our entire scientific knowledge is not based on the assumption that the universe started with a big bang. The big bang theory is based on that assumption. And yes, there is a way for us to discover how the universe started; we just have to make sense of the observations we make.

Just reason to believe the universe started with a big bang. Perhaps WN has found his own clues that indicate a multiverse excists and it is good enough for him to believe we are in a multiverse. (not that i have any idea how he thinks of this nor do i really care)

Then you should have said so when I asked you how you know we live in a multiverse. In any case, stop getting so defensive and have a mature conversation. What kind of evidence do you think supports this claim?

Nobody is pretending anything, it is just you who pretends you are sane, but imo the only sane people on the planet are the ones that can see beyond their own believe systems and listen to someone else for a change. U are not one of those it seems.

Way to change the subject. You're also making the assumption that I don't listen to anyone, which is also false. I have rational skepticism, meaning I don't just believe what anyone says if I have no reason to believe so. It's a healthy way to approach ideas and topics.

Its okay tho, never too late to learn

What, to learn to believe everything you read even if it's false?

Originally Posted by MindGames

It's a theory based on evidence. The Big Bang wouldn't be generally regarded as a plausible theory if it didn't have good evidence to support it. You should read up on cosmic microwave background radiation and other evidence that supports the theory.

I know that there are clues that might indicate that the universe started with a big bang.

Originally Posted by MindGames

No, it's not. That's why we call it a scientific theory, meaning that it's an explanation for the beginning of the universe based on the evidence at hand. Nowhere in science books will you ever read that the Big Bang is the absolute truth. However, it is not just some random guess. It's an educated guess. Perhaps you should actually study the big bang to see the evidence it has to support it.

Ur right. Saying that the universe started with the big bang is a guess, just like saying that there is such a thing as a multiverse is a guess.
If you want to understand multiverses and do research about them you have to atleast first acknowledge the existence of a multiverse. Even if it is just hypothetically.

Originally Posted by MindGames

Our entire scientific knowledge is not based on the assumption that the universe started with a big bang. The big bang theory is based on that assumption.

If you want to observe the universe first it has to start right? And no it is not stated as absolute truth in GOOD science books. It's still true tho that most people believe the universe started with a big bang simply because science says so. Thus when words spread people fail to mention that it could also be false.

Originally Posted by MindGames

And yes, there is a way for us to discover how the universe started; we just have to make sense of the observations we make.

I agree.

Originally Posted by MindGames

Then you should have said so when I asked you how you know we live in a multiverse. In any case, stop getting so defensive and have a mature conversation. What kind of evidence do you think supports this claim?

You never asked me anything. And i'm not claiming anything about the existence of a multiverse.

Originally Posted by MindGames

Way to change the subject. You're also making the assumption that I don't listen to anyone, which is also false. I have rational skepticism, meaning I don't just believe what anyone says if I have no reason to believe so. It's a healthy way to approach ideas and topics.

No, what you show here is full-blown denial and dismissal of an idea of a multiverse. I know so because you said to WakingNomad that he "Pretends multiverses to be true"

Originally Posted by MindGames

What, to learn to believe everything you read even if it's false?

To learn to respect your fellow human brothers and see that everyone can teach you something you didn't already know.

You claim to have a rational and healthy mind so it has to be obvious that providing evidence for the existence of a multiverse is troublesome to say the least. Do you really expect prove on this subject on this particular forum?

Originally Posted by Matt123

Good post but I do not agree with the whole war thing. It sounds very cliche.

I know, right? Totally cliche. Totally following the whole epic storyline formula!

Originally Posted by MindGames

If you have no reason to believe so, then why do you pretend it's true?

Ah, but I do have reason to believe so. I am not sure if you are real, "MindGames", but I act as if you are. You could be some artificial intelligence, and there is no way for you to prove to me that you are human.

Originally Posted by WakingNomad

Ah, but I do have reason to believe so. I am not sure if you are real, "MindGames", but I act as if you are. You could be some artificial intelligence, and there is no way for you to prove to me that you are human.

How is that a reason for believing that we live in a multiverse?


@Dthoughts, oops, I thought you were WakingNomad. That's why I referred to asking how you know we live in a multiverse; that was directed at WakingNomad. Sorry for the mix-up.

Originally Posted by Dthoughts

Ur right. Saying that the universe started with the big bang is a guess, just like saying that there is such a thing as a multiverse is a guess.
If you want to understand multiverses and do research about them you have to atleast first acknowledge the existence of a multiverse. Even if it is just hypothetically.

I agree that it is a possibility that we live in a multiverse, but I have yet to come across a reason to believe that we live in such a multiverse that everything occurs and is possible and that that has any significance whatsoever on our lives.

If you want to observe the universe first it has to start right? And no it is not stated as absolute truth in GOOD science books. It's still true tho that most people believe the universe started with a big bang simply because science says so. Thus when words spread people fail to mention that it could also be false.

No, it only has to exist to observe it. That's why the big bang theory is pretty much irrelevant to other areas of science that don't have anything to do with the origin of the universe.

If you have a good understanding of how science works at all, then anyone should be able to realize that the big bang theory is a theory. Unless a textbook specifically states that the big bang theory is absolute truth (which I highly doubt occurs in any textbooks), then there is not much reason to believe that it is absolute truth. No area of science that I know of is able to attain the absolute truth of the workings of the universe. If a textbook fails to explain what theories are when it is targeted at beginners, then it's a pretty shitty textbook anyway.

You never asked me anything. And i'm not claiming anything about the existence of a multiverse.

Sorry about that. I thought you were WakingNomad.

No, what you show here is full-blown denial and dismissal of an idea of a multiverse. I know so because you said to WakingNomad that he "Pretends multiverses to be true"

No, I did not deny the possibility of a multiverse. I specifically stated that I have no reason to believe so (note that I am speaking of a multiverse in which anything and everything possible is happening). Unless you can give me a good reason to believe in one, then I will not believe in one. That is rational skepticism. It simply means that you don't believe things that haven't been shown to be credible. The reason why I said that WakingNomad pretends that multiverses are real is because he claimed himself that he doesn't even know when I asked him why he believes in one. So it is in fact pretending that it is true when you believe in one without any real reason for it.

To learn to respect your fellow human brothers and see that everyone can teach you something you didn't already know.

I have respect for other people, which is why I'm not talking shit to you or putting you down, for instance.

You claim to have a rational and healthy mind so it has to be obvious that providing evidence for the existence of a multiverse is troublesome to say the least. Do you really expect prove on this subject on this particular forum?

In fact I don't expect you to prove anything, but I did ask for a reason why WakingNomad believes in a multiverse and he stated that he did not know of one. That's what I was emphasizing. It is not healthy to believe in things that are not true, and spreading those beliefs to other people and confusing and misleading them in the process is not right.

Originally Posted by MindGames

I have respect for other people, which is why I'm not talking shit to you or putting you down, for instance.

Well u do seem more kind than i thought u where. It did look like u where just trying to push buttons. Like saying "stop getting so defensive" to me when u thought i was someone else. Nobody was getting defensive tho, i don't see how u got to that conclusion.

I doubt we live in a multiverse where every possible action occurs somewhere, that seems weird. Perhaps there are overlaying dimensions and there is one universe, just an infinite amount of ways to look at that universe. There could very well be a mirror world tho, i've heared rumors about a reunion of two worlds. (salvia observation, multiple reports about this by expert users)

Originally Posted by Dthoughts

Well u do seem more kind than i thought u where. It did look like u where just trying to push buttons. Like saying "stop getting so defensive" to me when u thought i was someone else. Nobody was getting defensive tho, i don't see how u got to that conclusion.

It looked like you were getting defensive because, again, I thought you were WakingNomad and that you were trying to describe my position by saying that I don't understand why you believe in a multiverse or care what you think. I did find it kind of strange that you were referring to yourself in third person, but then again that is what I expected when I posted in this forum.

I doubt we live in a multiverse where every possible action occurs somewhere, that seems weird. Perhaps there are overlaying dimensions and there is one universe, just an infinite amount of ways to look at that universe. There could very well be a mirror world tho, i've heared rumors about a reunion of two worlds. (salvia observation, multiple reports about this by expert users)

I agree with the first part of your post and that's what I'm arguing against, but I can't say that I take trip reports seriously. I've read quite a bit of them in the past and they
are very creative and are definitely a trip, but I have no reason to take, for instance, interdimensional elves seriously. (See DMT trips) They may have significance in the subjective realm of a drug trip, but they have no significance in terms of actual physical reality. Even if the experiences are corroborated by separate individuals, there's no reason to believe that the individuals aren't simply reading about others' trips and therefore having similar elements in their trips or interpreting them in the same way.

Originally Posted by MindGames

I agree with the first part of your post and that's what I'm arguing against, but I can't say that I take trip reports seriously. I've read quite a bit of them in the past and they
are very creative and are definitely a trip, but I have no reason to take, for instance, interdimensional elves seriously. (See DMT trips) They may have significance in the subjective realm of a drug trip, but they have no significance in terms of actual physical reality. Even if the experiences are corroborated by separate individuals, there's no reason to believe that the individuals aren't simply reading about others' trips and therefore having similar elements in their trips or interpreting them in the same way.

No, at best they represent an immaterial reality. It's still real and should still be taken seriously, imo. Also, you have to realize that reading trip reports about machine-elves and actually seeing them is completely different. I heared these elves present themselves in such a way that words can not even begin to describe them. Therefore when you read a trip report ur only reading about 1/10th of the actual experience. It doesn't make sense to say you got a complete picture of machine-elves merely by reading about it.
Also, i have been told that there is another level to DMT trip when u break-trough, you go beyond machine-elves and beyond geometric patterns . Not exactly sure where u arrive tho.

But someone once told me, if DMT represents the Immaterial realities, then salvia represents the material ones . I'm curious to see if this is true.

Originally Posted by MindGames

I agree that it is a possibility that we live in a multiverse, but I have yet to come across a reason to believe that we live in such a multiverse that everything occurs and is possible and that that has any significance whatsoever on our lives..

It really doesn't have any significance to our lives. We could live our whole lives without even considering the existence of a multiverse and we would be fine. But IF multiverses exist, then we can use that knowledge to navigate to our destinies that we create. You cannot get to another more favorable parallel existence unless you make the right choices. But again, we don't need a theory of a multiverse to do this.

I did ask for a reason why WakingNomad believes in a multiverse and he stated that he did not know of one.

He didn't say that he had no reason for believing it, he said that he didn't know for a fact that we do. There is a subtle difference here, please reread. Just like the Big Bang is a theory, not a fact, you cannot state that it is a fact. You agree with this. WN also stated that he didn't know for a fact that we live in a multiverse. But just as we have reasons to believe that the Big Bang is most likely true, WN has reasons why he believes that we most likely live in a multiverse. He just hasn't said what those reasons are except by riddles and koans.

I think the problem is that it might not be worth communicating those reasons to someone who won't understand them.

Originally Posted by Dthoughts

I doubt we live in a multiverse where every possible action occurs somewhere, that seems weird. Perhaps there are overlaying dimensions and there is one universe, just an infinite amount of ways to look at that universe. There could very well be a mirror world tho, i've heared rumors about a reunion of two worlds. (salvia observation, multiple reports about this by expert users)

A tree grows toward the light. it has many branches. The ones that don't get enough light die off while the energy of growth goes to the branches that reach the light. There are many many leaves on the tree, but not all of them are meant to fulfill their purpose. Forks in the road that present two options, only one is ever known. The other option doesn't reach the light and it dies. It doesn't exist HERE or NOW. It goes on existing in the mind if one has regrets, or shame, or otherwise hung-up on the fork in the road that passed that lead to an alternative reality. When these alternative realities occupy too much energy in the mind, the mind is not healthy. It is spread across a few realities, confused, not vital and focused in this here now. The fantasies of "What if?" "I wish" "I should have..." "If only I.." leave pieces of your vital life force locked away in inaccessible alternative scenarios. One cannot be successful until one returns that vital life force back to the reality that one finds one's bodily existence in.

One can find where pieces of ones soul are left behind because that is where one's thoughts are. It is not as if you are here and now and a piece of your soul is missing in action. It is that your body is here and now while your thoughts are somewhere else. So you can literally drive your energy back home as if you are the horses coming home. This is great to do in dreams. Lucid dreaming for shamanic soul retrieval. Sometimes you have to go all over the universes to find yourself. But in all actuality all the realities are open for observation, but only one is able to be lived. You cannot get to any other favorable alternate reality except by steering this one in that direction. For that you need all of your mind and vitality here now. You cannot escape to another one. This one becomes the other one. Successful people make things happen instead of dreaming about it. Dreaming about it (daydreaming) is escaping this.

I just called it the tree, but Indian Shamans call the Metaverse the Eagle. Same thing, the Eagle has many many feathers, each feather is many many interconnected hairs attached to a quill. You can only see a part of the Eagle, only a very very very few people have ever been able to see the whole Eagle. To be able to see anything beyond this day to day Universe that we have found ourselves in requires an exacting attention. The second attention.

Originally Posted by MindGames

How is that a reason for believing that we live in a multiverse?


@Dthoughts, oops, I thought you were WakingNomad. That's why I referred to asking how you know we live in a multiverse; that was directed at WakingNomad. Sorry for the mix-up.

My reason for believing in a multiverse is personal experience. My reason I act as if things I experience are real is because my experiences is all I know. I treat my belief in you the same way I treat my belief in the multiverse.

So, are we like, making a stand against the Templars?

Originally Posted by fOrceez

So, are we like, making a stand against the Templars?

I don't really understand your question. You are part of "we" but who are "we"? Who are the Templars?

>_> Don't punk me D:

Originally Posted by fOrceez

>_> Don't punk me D:

Man, I am 35 years old. I am not really down with the young people's slang, but I have an idea what you mean from context clues.

I am not punking you, if you mean, making fun of you, or being sarcastic. The questions I asked is sincere. I really don't know who you mean by "we." Everyone has a different definitions of what Templar means. I am asking you to clarify your question so I can answer it.

Oh- sorry.
I was going to go with 'we' as in dream warriors.. and then Templars as in Illuminati who attack people on the dream plane.

Originally Posted by fOrceez

Oh- sorry.
I was going to go with 'we' as in dream warriors.. and then Templars as in Illuminati who attack people on the dream plane.

There is no us and we. Duality is an illusion. There is only One.

My reason for believing in a multiverse is personal experience. My reason I act as if things I experience are real is because my experiences is all I know. I treat my belief in you the same way I treat my belief in the multiverse.

Then how can you experience a multiverse? You would have to observe two worlds at the same time, and still you would only have one experience, being one person observing something.

This thread is perhaps just weird enough to reflect the weirdness of our world... Nevertheless, finding out things about dreamworld(s) is only possible through experience, and all experience is influenced by our way of thinking... A rationalist dreamworld would perhaps be awesome, too...

(I don´t really know what I just wanted to say)

There is no us and we. Duality is an illusion. There is only One.

Why fighting a war then?

Welcome to DV , yenuMorann

There is no us and we. Duality is an illusion. There is only One.

I don't understand what you mean here, do you mean there is only one side? No 'us' or 'them'?

Originally Posted by yenuMorann

Then how can you experience a multiverse? You would have to observe two worlds at the same time, and still you would only have one experience, being one person observing something.

This thread is perhaps just weird enough to reflect the weirdness of our world... Nevertheless, finding out things about dreamworld(s) is only possible through experience, and all experience is influenced by our way of thinking... A rationalist dreamworld would perhaps be awesome, too...

(I don´t really know what I just wanted to say)

Why fighting a war then?

How can one experience a multiverse? How can one experience two worlds at the same time?

Imagine this: you are a caterpillar crawling on a leaf. Now imagine the caterpillar is the bacteria in your gut. Now imagine your gastrointestinal track is a snake. Who's fighting a war?

Originally Posted by fOrceez

Welcome to DV , yenuMorann

I don't understand what you mean here, do you mean there is only one side? No 'us' or 'them'?