Thread: How to counter skeptics' statements on Astral Projection?

Originally Posted by Ketsuyume

And that's exactly what they want you to think. I am sorry to hear you are another victim of their game. It does, however, put everything else you've said about your opinions on science and others issues in place in my mind.

Lol, ok. I suppose the New World Order will established in 2012. I guess I'll be sorry then that I didn't listen to you.

Good luck to you. Hopefully once you begin to see the illusion that is our government it might change your perspective on other issues as well.

The government is no illusion. It's a real entity, and a working government is necessary to run this country. Your belief that the government is trying to enslave us by outlawing "mind-freeing" psychedelics however is fucking ridiculous.

In one thread on one message board at my own pace? You're got a excellent knack for assuming things based on a limited amount of evidence.

^ Lol, fails to realize that I was using "you" collectively.

Originally Posted by Ketsuyume

Science is advancing but the agenda is always, to an extent, rigged.

Lmao, seriously, just stop. You're making yourself look stupid. Science has an agenda? How can rational thinking and observation have an agenda? I suppose you think the entire scientific community is conspiring to enslave the masses, too.

Hmm. Its hard to get any "skeptic" to believe anything because generally speaking they are close minded and are mainly interested in "debunking" others arguments in their mind to feel better about themselves. Social and governmental supression isnt a new things, its been happening for thousands of years with every government that has ever existed. The problems with the people of today I think is the fact that so many people simply dont think for themselves. They will believe things that they are told without doing hardly and research for themselves. Everyone is entitled to their opinon because they have free will, but supression is indeed a problem (especially in countries in the middle east and china).

”I know of no safe depository of the ultimate power of the society but the people themselves; and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise that control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not take it from them, but to inform their discretion.” -Thomas Jefferson

The question we should be asking ourselves about our decisions and people is "are our decisions informed?"

As for dealing with skeptics who try to supress you...

1. LISTEN to what they say and OBSERVE what they do

2. THINK very carefully what questions would provoke them to think and/or change their attitude

3. Develop a range of "teasing" questions that will be impossible for them to forget

4. Only when you are ready with sufficient range of teasers - try to ASK these questions from time to time.

Making people THINK is one of the best ways to get people to accept different opinions.

As for the "fight" thats has been going on in this topic, I would suggest that "skeptics" do some research on astral projection/spiritual advancement and current affairs before bashing others. The only critisim that is helpful is of the constructive and informed variety.

Astral Projection produces many skeptics because modern science does not research such fields often (as most scientific funding and fuding in general goes towards weapons, drugs and profitable things) after all, scientistscant do studies without funding. Funding goes towards things that are profitable. The energy crisis is a good example, in the early 20th century gas and oil was chosen over hydrogen and other energy methods because it was "quicker and easier".

"Money makes the world go round"

A good source I found online Wise Up Journal - Wise up journal is a site that collects news articles/documentaries from many popular newspapers and other sources to give a view on current affairs.

"The abuse of greatness is when it disjoins remorse from power"

Originally Posted by MindGames

Lmao, seriously, just stop. You're making yourself look stupid.

You mean from your perspective my perspective looks foolish enough to laugh at. Do you think I haven't heard that thousands of times already?

I would attempt to clarify my self again on this whole "agenda" issue, (which wasn't directed at the objective idea of "science" at ALL) but because you're twisting everything I say, laughing at your twisted version of it and then calling it stupid, this has become rather boring and really fucking irritating.

I'm also going to assume you didn't watch any of my links, because you'd see George Carlin and Bill Hicks are just about as fucking moronic as I am.

Only dumb people that haven't given a lot of thought to these issues come up with the opinions I do. Yup, that's most certanly how it works. No thought involved at all. No research. No hundreds of podcasts and articles. That most certainly never happens.

Oh, OH, you know what else? I also make it a habit to laugh at other peoples' beliefs and call them idiots without trying to understand why they have the opinions they do. That's most certainly the quickest way, I've found, to educate my self further on these issues.

I'm more fond of passive aggression and sarcasm rather than direct insults. They make for better jokes.

I'm done discussing this with you, bro. From the beginning you had no real worthwhile opinion to share, only a laugh and a finger to point. I don't, however, regret askng you the question, though. I hope everyone here remembers that your type loves to mock what is too radical for you to believe.

-K

1. LISTEN to what they say and OBSERVE what they do

I couldn't agree more. This is the quickest way to find your own personal truth.

Oh boy, this again? Tsukiomi, did you really read the whole topic? Because it seems you didn't and just repeated yourself and brought up again the issue of "Skeptics are alien to the concept, so don't hear them out" thingy, I would advise reading again.

Originally Posted by Ketsuyume

You mean from your perspective my perspective looks foolish enough to laugh at. Do you think I haven't heard that thousands of times already?

Honestly, no. I have no sympathy for you.

I would attempt to clarify my self again on this whole "agenda" issue, (which wasn't directed at the objective idea of "science" at ALL) but because you're twisting everything I say, laughing at your twisted version of it and then calling it stupid, this has become rather boring and really fucking irritating.

Let's quote the post in question here, shall we?

I would contend for many of us it's our distrust of many of our so-called "official" sources of information that help form many of our opinions. Once you believe we're being lied to constantly in order to keep us repressed as a species, you also begin to see why the few in power are invested in preventing the mnid-freeing substances (weed, mushrooms, other naturally growing plants), and mind-freeing experiences (OBE/AP, among others) from being understood and embraced in the mainstream.

Enlightenment isn't good for business.

-K

I'm going to say this once more. Your assertion that the government is conspiring to repress us as a species is ridiculous. (I won't cuss here because you obviously cannot handle a heated discussion.) Furthermore, psychedelic mushrooms are not illegal as a result of this made-up conspiracy. As I have stated before, the individuals that make up our government are corrupt. They're prone to bribery, and therefore will lean one way or another in passing legislation if it's in a corporation's best interests to provide the incentive to do so. However it is not their 'agenda' to specifically repress us. They are simply greedy bastards. While their greed is oppressive in that the legislation they pass infringes upon our rights from time to time, they do not specifically take action or "lie to us" in order to repress us. There is no conspiracy in place to repress our species other than the usual and obvious greed and nationalist bullshit.

Furthermore, I've made it clear that I do not believe in Astral Projection and OBEs. Time and time again they have failed to be proven. Care to project into my room and observe the color of my walls? How about you project onto the "dream plane" and enter my own dreams? That's right, you can't, because what you are experiencing are simply lucid dreams. Unique states of consciousness from what you described, but lucid dreams nonetheless.

I'm also going to assume you didn't watch any of my links, because you'd see George Carlin and Bill Hicks are just about as fucking moronic as I am.

I'm not going to waste my time watching your Youtube links. If you have something to contribute, post it; that way I can actually respond to what you're saying.

Only dumb people that haven't given a lot of thought to these issues come up with the opinions I do. Yup, that's most certanly how it works. No thought involved at all. No research. No hundreds of podcasts and articles. That most certainly never happens.

In my opinion, you are misled in believing that the government's oppressive "agenda" is conspiring to repress our species by outlawing psychedelic substances and preventing people from taking supernatural experiences seriously. On the scientific community's part, rationally and skeptically approaching supernatural phenomena is not oppressive in any way. (In reality, most of the scientific community is biased against supernatural phenomena, but with good reason; it still has yet to yield any credible evidence whatsoever.)

Oh, OH, you know what else? I also make it a habit to laugh at other peoples' beliefs and call them idiots without trying to understand why they have the opinions they do. That's most certainly the quickest way, I've found, to educate my self further on these issues.

Calm the fuck down. It is irrational to believe in supernatural phenomena. There is no reason to believe in it. I hold a very strong opinion that these beliefs are ignorant and childish, and thus from time to time I do feel compelled to mock people that hold these beliefs.

I'm more fond of passive aggression and sarcasm rather than direct insults. They make for better jokes.

Cool, bro.

I'm done discussing this with you, bro. From the beginning you had no real worthwhile opinion to share, only a laugh and a finger to point. I don't, however, regret askng you the question, though. I hope everyone here remembers that your type loves to mock what is too radical for you to believe.

-K

I have no reason to take your beliefs seriously. You have failed to show that your beliefs have any real merit.

Originally Posted by Hukif

Oh boy, this again? Tsukiomi, did you really read the whole topic? Because it seems you didn't and just repeated yourself and brought up again the issue of "Skeptics are alien to the concept, so don't hear them out" thingy, I would advise reading again.

My apologies, just went over it. People brought up many good points, its interesting to think about the various possiblities for such phenomina. However, its seems like this topic has devolved into two sides yelling or being pretentious/condesending towards one another. I can definitly see where each side gets it ideas from and I tend to agree with ketsuyume and waking nomads logic as they clearly know much about this topic.

Ah, prehaps I should clarify. What I mean by skeptics is Close minded skeptics who insessantly babble and infuriate others because they are unwilling to see multiple sides of the issue at hand and do enough Research from all angles before forming an opinion. Unfortuneately modern society is full of these people. Healthy is skeptisim is great, if not nessessary for one to continue to learn and for all sides to be seen in equal light in order to make informed decisions.

Actually I do not see astral projection as something supernatural, in fact there is no such thing because one could not do something that is beyond natural because something has to exist in nature to make things possible. "The only thing that is "paranormal" in the Universe is our limited understanding of it." A person from the distant past would think many things in modern society are "supernatural" or "witchcraft" it is illogical to simply scoff at things that havent been "verifyed yet" if inventors didnt come up with new ideas we wouldnt even be close to where we are now.

The interesting thing about this topic is that it causes a conflict of interest depending on ones definition of "supernatural" or "proof" There are tons of books and several studies (even an institute dedicated to) astral projection so I dont think saying that there isnt enough evidence is a valid statement. Maybe the evidence wont confince some people or thy might not see it as "valid" but that doesnt mean there is no evidence.

Actually, modern science makes several assumptions such as- "People are animals" "the universe was created randomly" etc. Which gives it an inherent buyist toward "paranormal phenomina" even if there are just natural phenomina that we cannot yet fathom.

Unfortuneately most people think that something has to be "scientifically proven" for it to be considered "valid." This is comparable to the people in the dark ages who thought everything they didnt understand was "the devil." because they took everything they "knew" from the bible, like wise just because our science doesnt prove its possible yet doesnt mean we should dimiss possiblilites and personal accounts from hundreds of thousands of people over the last millenia. Scientist say that something that science cannot yet prove is "psudo-science, mysticism, conspiricy,etc." Science is great, however like I said before it is drivien by that which is profitable or safe.

Prehaps this topic can be used to research the existing information on the subject and present it so that people can gather information and make informed decisions themselves. After all, we all have the freedom of choice, no matter what those choices may be.

Ill be sure to document my experiences as I explore this topic. Good day

Originally Posted by Tsukiomi

Actually I do not see astral projection as something supernatural, in fact there is no such thing because one could not do something that is beyond natural because something has to exist in nature to make things possible. "The only thing that is "paranormal" in the Universe is our limited understanding of it." A person from the distant past would think many things in modern society are "supernatural" or "witchcraft" it is illogical to simply scoff at things that havent been "verifyed yet" if inventors didnt come up with new ideas we wouldnt even be close to where we are now.

Right; astral projection is not supernatural, people just think it is. It's most likely simply a type of lucid dream that people have created. However it's not true that nothing is supernatural; ghosts, for example, are surely supernatural. So are souls, God, and out of body experiences. It's not that we don't understand these things; skeptics can rationalize and disprove the reality of these things pretty easily. The reason why they're paranormal is because people simply choose to believe that they actually exist as part of some paradigm of transcendent reality, without having any real reason to believe so.

Simply say this: Absence of evidence does not equate to evidence of absence.

Right; astral projection is not supernatural, people just think it is. It's most likely simply a type of lucid dream that people have created.

Actually, Astral Projection is raising the vibrations of your consciousness to reach another realm, which would basically be called a "Mind-World" that is beyond the basic laws of the physical.

Originally Posted by NonConformist

Simply say this: Absence of evidence does not equate to evidence of absence.

That's correct, but you still have yet to give any reason to believe in it. So why do you believe that Astral Projection isn't simply a lucid dream? It would be irrational to simply believe in it without reason, therefore you should be skeptical of it unless you have a good reason.

Originally Posted by NonConformist

Actually, Astral Projection is raising the vibrations of your consciousness to reach another realm, which would basically be called a "Mind-World" that is beyond the basic laws of the physical.

How do you know you're not just dreaming that?

It shouldn't matter what you call it, unless what you call it limits what you can get out of it. Fuck the police.

Uh, I'm kinda surprised the arguing is still going on... I know this thread was controversial from the start, with that kind of thread title, but I don't see this getting anywhere. I say, let bygones be bygones?

Sure. So we're clear that AP is simply lucid dreaming, then?

Hah! Well, if that's what you want to believe, that's your right. I choose to believe otherwise, for reasons of my own. As long as you respect my belief, I respect yours. But I think you knew that already.

Originally Posted by Singularity125

Hah! Well, if that's what you want to believe, that's your right. I choose to believe otherwise, for reasons of my own. As long as you respect my belief, I respect yours. But I think you knew that already.

Hey, as long as we are here saying it is a belief, and not fact, I respect that.

Just because the limit of science is the material doesn't mean that non-material doesn't exist. As for claiming it does exists without evidence, I also think that what people are calling 'non-material' IS actually material. Our tools are not sensitive enough.

@Mindgames: You say that believing that the government wants to suppress us is ridiculous, why is it a ridiculous idea to entertain? You never gave a point, just calling it names. Also, claiming that entheogens are not illegal because of how they give you another valid perspective on experience, but you say that they are dangerous or do not contribute to society. That is because enlightenment is bad for business. Enlightenment historically has always been the first thing and the most consistent thing to be outlawed, even carrying a higher penalty than rape and murder.
Lucid dreaming/astral projection was illegal in Europe during the dark ages since anyone who practiced it were persecuted as witches or Satanists. Witches were burned for claiming that they meet up in OOBEs. Look up the Gnostics.

The first thing that was outlawed when the Spaniards arrived in Mexico was the mushrooms and the peyote that were used in shamanic travels. LSD was legal until the government was done researching it as a chemical weapon or truth serum. They didn't care about its therapeutic uses, so they outlawed it. Now the Chinese just outlawed reincarnation without permission. You have to get a permit in order to reincarnate legally in China now. This is obviously aimed at the Dalia Lama. Isn't alcohol more dangerous to society than mushrooms or pot? But alcohol has no enlightenment side-effect.

If people want to call it a lucid dream or a astral projection it is just semantics. Lucid dream is just the modern politically-correct scientifically sanctioned term. Tomato Tomawto. But enlightenment is beyond semantics.

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

Enlightenment historically has always been the first thing and the most consistent thing to be outlawed, even carrying a higher penalty than rape and murder.

QFT.

Modern science says the fact that we even exist at all is a complete random occurrence.

DNA, despite being contained in every living being on this planet, completely random.

Cells only know how to do one thing, and that is to obey instruction. How did they gain instructions in the first place, or gain the ability to follow them? Random?

Each living being contains its seed, which can produce another version of the same being from a very small and basic cellular state, using only instructions provided by DNA, called reproduction. How is this possible? How did this even come to be in the first place. Randomly? Everything just started off capable of reproducing with no real inherent reason to reproduce in the first place other than to survive? But wait, how did survival even become a driving factor? Randomly?

We have many forms of plant life, all of which serve a very specific purpose with effects that are generally the same across an entire species. Well...that's not so random, that seems very predictable. But it came to be all randomly?

When our brain is formed by these same cells, and we are born into this world and start to age, how is it that we have free will, and can learn to create things using combinations of other things that initially do not represent in any way what their final form will be? Random?

Why do we have an imagination that can conceptualize anything we want, even if that item does not exist in waking reality as an organism or being? Random?

Why is it that we don't have various species of human, and that over time all human life has stayed the initial form of human, with no deviation from the amount of chromosome pairs, and other things? Random? How many humans existed when the first humans were on this planet? In what locations? Random locations?

Is free will a feature of our physical brain? Or our non-physical mind? Do we have a non-physical mind? How is it that we can dream when we sleep? Why do the rules of dreaming state anything you want to do is possible so long as you believe it? How do we believe? Is believing a feature of our DNA? Is dreaming? Why doesn't our DNA allow us to do what we do in dreams in waking? Is it simply just random? Were we just unlucky? Is that merely an assumption?

Why is placebo possible? How could we possibly use only our minds, to cause changes in our bodies? Random feature?


It's much easier to make something up than to even begin to comprehend the possible truth isn't it?

Are you a body with a consciousness or a consciousness with a body?

Originally Posted by AL3ZAY

Modern science says the fact that we even exist at all is a complete random occurrence.

DNA, despite being contained in every living being on this planet, completely random.

Evolution is not a completely random event... and science hasn't proven anything in regards to whether our existence is random, just theories at this point.

Originally Posted by concusion

Evolution is not a completely random event... and science hasn't proven anything in regards to whether our existence is random, just theories at this point.

If the event is not completely random it is not random at all. You cannot have partially random in a whole without intent, it is either random or it is not. Intent cannot inhabit the same exact space as random in regards to our existence and the existence of this planet and everything on it, because intent so far as evolution is concerned, means there was something intending these things. Something purposefully directed these things to exist and have the ability to evolve the way that they do. If any part of this creation is purely random with no control by the one intending these things, the entire balance is thrown off as there can be no balance with something random. Complete balance in something also completely random has as much a chance of happening as you bursting into flame this very second and not feeling any burning sensation while awake, while those around you cannot get within 10 feet of you due to the intensity of the heat. The entity doing all of the intending would need to have a complete understanding of all elements of the area it is creating in to have a balance and harmony in its rules and systems. If it's all random, how to gain an understanding from something you couldn't begin to comprehend without knowing all the possibilities of this random space?

So how does science prove anything in regards to our existence? The process of evolution itself? What is smaller and even before atoms on multiple levels? We don't know. Even in knowing that information, all that will do, is raise more questions. Upon examining the basic nature and structure of everything we even call "natural" in the first place, what exactly is supernatural, again?

We can't even comprehend our own existence, yet we know surely there is nothing beyond human life and the planet Earth we are on? We happen to be a perfect distance from the sun, surely this is random? We have a 12 hour day and 12 hour night cycle, to the second. Clearly this is random? Our planet spins on an axis and revolves around a star that generates enough heat within itself via chemical reactions that heat and light reach millions upon millions of miles away, and this feeds the growth of our plant life, which produce oxygen, which is what we breathe. How did our plants get the instructions to do what they do, for without them, we could not live in our current form, nor could anything that breathes oxygen, and how many living beings is that exactly? All of them? Even sea creatures absorb the oxygen inherent in water. How did they get these instructions? This light from the sun also heats and brightens half of the Earth during each 12 hour cycle. How exactly did the cells get the instructions to form lungs, and that by passing oxygen through these into our bloodstream...but wait...bloodstream? Blood...did it exist as a single celled, organism? How exactly did we, and all animals obtain blood? DNA instruction? What kind of instruction is this? Where did it come from? Random?

If one single piece of the entire comprehension of the creation of this planet, universe, and everything in them is random, they are all random. If but a single piece is not random, then nothing is random, and everything intended. The only, truly random thing that exists, is a being with a free will consciousness. But even then, that gift in and of itself is intended.

Dreaming by itself is super-natural by the description that everything is only a projection of, or a figment of your mind. In my dreams, I can fly and know the sensation of flying from moving relative to another object, and feeling the energy we call wind brushing against my skin, but wait, what skin? I can transform into a dragon, something said to not exist, and feel the scales, the limbs, my wings, a tail, the enhanced and changed senses, the fire-gland in my throat and the fire on my tongue. I can then fly or use my enhanced muscles to smash things, all in a fashion I couldn't tell from the real thing. I can bite into things and feel them as if I were a dragon all this time. My mind is creating an almost perfect simulation of something I've never even experienced before on this level? I express my intent to engage in a fight with a dragon, and poof, one appears before me. My mind created this with perfect knowledge of the power of his muscles, a greater knowledge of combat than myself, and the ability to manipulate energy with no fear? Why do I feel fear if I am capable of none from the get go? Why is it that when I fight in my dreams I learn techniques I can actually use in a waking reality situation?

My mind is so infinitely complex that it can enable me to do, feel, see, and learn all of these things with perfect accuracy? My mind can perfectly recreate the feeling of grass and sand between my toes, feeling the millions of little grains underneath. It knows the solidity of steel and glass windows, and can mold them into any type of imaginative scene for me to interact with that is not of this earth? It can create conceptual things such as a creature of my design and place it before me in three dimensions with every sensation I'd expect to be there in as vivid an experience as waking life? Why is it that I can ask questions of the dream and learn something insightful? My mind is this complex when I'm asleep, but not when I'm awake? How exactly did my cells get the instructions to be capable of doing all of this while sleeping? How do cells create my dreams? Do cells create dreams? They make up your mind, which is also your brain, or are those two things separate? Is this all a random occurrence?

From the definition of "Dreams are only a projection of your mind, a figment of your mind and imagination, and are only contained within your head", my dreams would appear to be my mind understanding the whole universe without my conscious self understanding a thing. My mind takes my consciousness into a place of nothing but raw energy, which is the basis of everything, and from this energy it creates scenes larger than my actual physical body, transforms my body, creates and disintegrates objects at my will, and gives everything the solidity it needs and modifies things based on what I consciously intend to do. How does it do this, separate of me? Oh, my subconscious? Wait, why exactly is THAT my subconscious? I'd much rather have that be my conscious mind, wouldn't you? Is that an unlucky draw of our random existence?

Humans did not need to wait for the advances of science to be able to experience dreaming, or walking, or communicating, or reasoning, nor learning, and that is because science is a sub-set of comprehension, not the whole. You have no reason to wait for science to prove something you can prove to yourself right now. There is no need to convince another of what you know to be true if they are not ready. When they are ready, however, you will know. They will ask more questions as opposed to making statements.

Originally Posted by AL3ZAY

QFT.

Modern science says the fact that we even exist at all is a complete random occurrence.

DNA, despite being contained in every living being on this planet, completely random.

Cells only know how to do one thing, and that is to obey instruction. How did they gain instructions in the first place, or gain the ability to follow them? Random?

Yes, the modern scientific consensus is that life was a random occurrence. This is completely plausible. After all, even if life only occurs once in a trillion, trillion universe lifetimes, we're only able to question our existence that one time. At that point in time, it would seem outrageous that the universe wasn't created just for us, but in fact, it wasn't. This is the reason why the universe seems to be "just right" for us. Because if it wasn't "just right", then we wouldn't exist.

Each living being contains its seed, which can produce another version of the same being from a very small and basic cellular state, using only instructions provided by DNA, called reproduction. How is this possible? How did this even come to be in the first place. Randomly? Everything just started off capable of reproducing with no real inherent reason to reproduce in the first place other than to survive? But wait, how did survival even become a driving factor? Randomly?

I'd like to clear up the confusion on 'randomness' here. Really, the only random event that needed to occur was for a self-replicating molecule to be made. And then of course for complex life to be possible, it would need to be occur on planet rich in carbon, with sunlight and water, etc. This isn't too far-fetched, since there is, after all, an entire universe, evolving over an unfathomable period of billions upon billions of years, with googolplexes of different planets for that to occur on.

Once a self-replicating molecule comes into existence, it is then able to start to produce copies of itself, which are able to reproduce copies of themselves, and so on. After some time, different versions of the molecule get altered by, I presume, gamma rays (I only assume this because that's how DNA gets altered). Most of the time, the alterations would cause the molecules to cease to be able to reproduce, and even if the modification made it better able to survive, it can't reproduce, so it eventually gets eliminated. But sometimes, the molecule is modified in such a way that it can more easily reproduce, or it is better able to use the resources at hand. So I presume this continued and allowed many variations to occur in these molecules. After some time, a couple of molecules might have evolved a variation which enabled it to occupy a different niche, giving it certain advantages over other molecules, thus being better able to survive and pass of its offspring. Once something is better able to survive and reproduce, its population goes up, and all of the produced organisms undergo mutations just as its predecessors did. But there is a limited amount of resources, so that only allows the organisms with the greatest perks to survive, thus causing evolution to be directed toward survival qualities, leading to the survival of the fittest. So you can see, although things are random, they are actually inherently directed toward evolving better traits.

We have many forms of plant life, all of which serve a very specific purpose with effects that are generally the same across an entire species. Well...that's not so random, that seems very predictable. But it came to be all randomly?

Yes, and you can trace that random event back to the generation of self-replicating molecules. I know it's quite mind-boggling, but the only reason you're here and able to question this is because it happened. If you'd like to learn more about this, look up the anthrophic principle.

When our brain is formed by these same cells, and we are born into this world and start to age, how is it that we have free will, and can learn to create things using combinations of other things that initially do not represent in any way what their final form will be? Random?

All the products of billions of years of minor mutations occurring all the time, each being chosen in nature by their ability to survive among competition and reproduce. Amazing, isn't it?

Why do we have an imagination that can conceptualize anything we want, even if that item does not exist in waking reality as an organism or being? Random?

Actually no, we cannot conceptualize anything we want. You cannot conceptualize a new color outside of the visible light spectrum, for instance. Generally, you have to have experienced many different things and organized the information with your pattern recognition skills, and then you are able to combine different information into one new concept based off of already-existing forms. Perhaps you should study neuroscience if you want to learn more about the inner workings of the brain. Imagination is an important part of our ability to survive, since it allows us to create new tools and concepts.

Why is it that we don't have various species of human, and that over time all human life has stayed the initial form of human, with no deviation from the amount of chromosome pairs, and other things? Random? How many humans existed when the first humans were on this planet? In what locations? Random locations?

Actually we do; they're referred to as races. And there are many variations in the human genome, making some people more susceptible to diseases, immune to other diseases, better able to sustain prolonged physical activity, etc. There are also differences in the amount and lengths of chromosomes, but this usually leads to adverse effects such as down syndrome. I can't say for sure that our evolution has progressed more slowly than other organisms' evolution, but if that were the case, it would probably be because of our superior ability to survive. Thus, if one were to develop increased capabilities, it would still cause them to be more likely to pass on their genes, but it wouldn't make as much of a difference. Plus we have all kinds of diversity, and everybody's still willing to fuck anybody regardless of their skin color, etc, so variations would tend to become less pronounced.

Is free will a feature of our physical brain? Or our non-physical mind? Do we have a non-physical mind? How is it that we can dream when we sleep? Why do the rules of dreaming state anything you want to do is possible so long as you believe it? How do we believe? Is believing a feature of our DNA? Is dreaming? Why doesn't our DNA allow us to do what we do in dreams in waking? Is it simply just random? Were we just unlucky? Is that merely an assumption?

1. There is probably no such thing as a non-physical mind. I see no real evidence for it.

2. We dream when we sleep, for one, because this increases our ability to learn. I guess it also has some organizing effects, but I'm not a sleep expert.

3. As for the rules of dreaming, life is entirely experiential and subjective. You can easily imagine and believe that you can fly, etc. because of our imaginative capabilities. It's probably because of the fact that we aren't born knowing the laws of nature that we are easily able to manipulate our mental experiences if we're 'convinced' that something is true.

Why is placebo possible? How could we possibly use only our minds, to cause changes in our bodies? Random feature?

The placebo question is particularly interesting. I would say that this is because over time, selectively, we evolved the ability to manipulate our physiological state using thought alone. This would be handy in changing our physiology so that we could endure more pain if we needed to, run longer if we needed to, or activate more muscle fibers at one time if we needed to. I think this is largely due to the evolution of instincts. If we see a predator coming at us, our brains alter our physiological state by releasing adrenaline, thus causing us to ignore pain, focus on surviving, and run much faster. So if we believe something, whether it's imagined or not, then our brains manipulate our bodies accordingly. One thing for you to think about is that if our minds are non-physical, then since they can obviously manipulate our brains, which are physical matter, why can't they manipulate other matter outside of our bodies, resulting in telekinesis for instance? And please don't assert that true telekinesis is possible, because if you think it is, you need to see a psychiatrist. (I say 'true' telekinesis because it's possible that we could change the electromagnetic properties of our skin, thus making it seem like we were using metaphysical means to control an object when we really aren't.)

It's much easier to make something up than to even begin to comprehend the possible truth isn't it?

Lol, sure it is. However, there are an infinite number of possible truths, so rather than simply imagine a "possible truth", I'm making much better use of my time by rationalizing everything and understanding the real truth of things. I'll leave my imagination to art and music and refrain from deluding myself with fairy tales and science fiction.

Are you a body with a consciousness or a consciousness with a body?

I'm a body with a brain. The activity within my brain creates consciousness.


Keep on questioning things. However, the only way you're going to find real answers is through a rational, scientific mindset. It's great to be creative, but it's not very useful in finding the true nature of reality.

As well thought out as that was, and as enjoyable as it was to read, you have taken all of these orderly things, all of these parts of our existence and reduced them down to a random occurrence. You provide your own theory after theory, possibility after possibility, none of which are facts, and then state they are rational and scientific. Nothing is rational about random. Random is chaos. You state:

I'm making much better use of my time by rationalizing everything and understanding the real truth of things. I'll leave my imagination to art and music and refrain from deluding myself with fairy tales and science fiction.

Stating that everything we know and experience is a random occurrence and attempting to break it down and rationalize it as such with theories, and possibilities based on what you currently know about each subject is not the real truth of things. It is only the truth you have created for yourself. This random occurrence is as much science fiction as anything I have asked you. Gamma rays modifying the instructions of cells? This is your theory?

I'd like to clear up the confusion on 'randomness' here. Really, the only random event that needed to occur was for a self-replicating molecule to be made. And then of course for complex life to be possible, it would need to be occur on planet rich in carbon, with sunlight and water, etc.

All that was needed in a random sense was a self-replicating molecule. Where did you get this? The movie Evolution? This is not true in the slightest sense. Carbon, sunlight, nor water are ANY of the things that are needed. They are the only things you know, so that is what you assume. Life is not limited to requiring these things, it is how we are made up and how we are to live in the environment of carbon, sunlight, and water that creates all the stipulations for how we maintain life through oxygen for breathing, light for heat and for plants so we can breathe, etc.. Non-life cannot create life, meaning there would be no plant life, no sea life. A self replicating organism in the environment of Earth itself appearing out of nowhere, randomly, was the start of it all? How did it get its creation? There needed to be plant life before we could inhabit this planet. How did it get here before us? Randomly? The organisms that self replicated all decided together that they would create plants that take in light to grow, and that they would turn carbon dioxide, the very thing we exhale, and turn it into oxygen as a waste product? And the gamma rays from the sun modified them in a way that was beneficial to this process? Randomly? And they did this before we were even around, or any animals for that matter? Then the self replicating organisms, smart as they are, decided, "hey, let's grow into larger organisms that breathe the waste products of our brothers, and we will eat each other in an effort to survive."?

Why exactly does this miracle cell need to survive? Nothing but itself? Then why do we need to eat food? Did it replicate and then eat itself? You did not answer a very critical question:

Cells only know how to do one thing, and that is follow instructions. If this self-replicating cell organism evolved all on its own into millions of different species and species variants, what gave it the instructions to do what it did?

What gave it the instructions to create plants first, and how did it know to create plants, just because there was sunlight? This organism could comprehend that sunlight was all it needed to replicate itself into something that uses light and water to grow? But wait, this cell must have started off in the ocean right? Because otherwise, how would it know it would need water when it created a plant? This single cell with no brain seems to be a very smart fellow. Oh but wait, it actually DIDN'T need water if it so chose to develop plants a different way, but I'm pretty sure cells don't actively make a choice in anything.

What exactly is thought? A process of energy? How is it that the cells were able to create a faculty of thinking, that stayed the same with an entire species? Animals can only do so much within their scope of intellect, but that does not mean they cannot problem solve. These cells, I must say, they are incredible. They can do anything they feel like doing. Shouldn't that mean I can sprout wings and fly if I think on it so much as to cause my cells to obey my conscious instructions? Or are they more powerful than me and my collective ability to think? Can I lay seeds? I am made up of those same cells, I should be able to instruct them to do whatever I want, correct?

You're telling me this single, miracle cell/organism collectively managed to do all of these things, create every existing living being on this planet, and all in a perfect harmony, creating whole ecosystems with humans being chief among all organisms? This is what you call natural selection? This was all just one awesome moment of complete random that developed in the most perfect way possible over time?

You sit there and try to explain all these various processes of our physiological being as if that is what the cells set out to do in the first place. Yeah it's great that you think you can explain all these things, but break them down to their basic nature and explain the origin of them. Break down the basic nature of thought. Energy. Break down the basic nature of objects. Energy. Break down the basic nature of cells. Energy with instruction. Break down the basic nature of a human developing from zygote to adult, and all the instructions needed to attain that. Your only answer will be a single cell that was so incredibly smart, it knew exactly where to start in order to sustain life on an entire planet and in what order everything should be created. Man that's a smart little guy. And let's not even begin to talk about the rest of the solar system in our galaxy that just so happened to also be in perfect harmony with what life needed to continue for any period of time.

You explained the creation of life as coming from a single source. A type of cell that self-replicated. One, that started out, on its own. Why haven't we found this cell type and given it instructions for new creations? Why exactly does a single source of another type such as a consciousness make you so uneasy? What exactly is so rational and scientific, both of which require order, in randomness, of which randomness has none, zilch, zero, nada?

I'm a body with a brain. The activity within my brain creates consciousness

Then what exactly, is the purpose for your existence? Why do you engage in human endeavors?