Thread: How to counter skeptics' statements on Astral Projection?

Hi everybody,

I am newbie but already started exploring & reading about this really interesting 'out-of-real-world' phenomena (internet really helps!),
but basically I just want to confirm with the real experts and any person who has experienced this first-hand: is this AP (astral projection) stuff really real? and not just a mere "escapism" from this harsh reality, by trying to say "yes dream world is real!!" kind of stuff.

I mean, I have always been an open-minded person and also somehow believe that there's still so much mystery in dreaming that hasn't been explored much yet.
But some skeptics friends of mine always kept saying of how those AP stuff is just bollocks/bullshits created by New-Agey people that doesn't have any basis on science and solid evidences and all, and basically it just serves as an "escapism" for people who can't handle reality/real world.

What do you all think?
Is there any good statement for countering these skeptics' statements, if these AP things indeed had been proven to really exist and happened?

To be quite honest, AP is non-physical, and science relies on the physical, so mere earthly science alone can prove nothing in that kind of field, purely because it lacks essential elements; those found in a dimension other than that of the physical world.

Personally, I have had no success with AP to date, but then again I haven't exactly been 'hip' with all this stuff until a few months ago, so I do not dismiss its existence. I'm actually focusing more on LD these days until that's fairly mastered before I move onto higher planes of consciousness. However, I've had one experience which could be a possible OBE, although I'm not entirely sure.

The best way you can decide for your self if AP is real or not is to read as many different accounts from as many different sources as possible... spanning across both time and space on this planet.

Finding the common threads everywhere is what has helped me conclude that our dreams and the dream realm is actually an extension of our reality.

-K

You're not going to find any evidence to show that AP is discreet from dreaming. From a physical and experiential standpoint, they are identical. I think you should approach it from a different angle. Dreams most definitely are real and powerful. Why is it a dismissal to say "It was a dream?" Why does that cheapen the experience for you?

Originally Posted by Ketsuyume

The best way you can decide for your self if AP is real or not is to read as many different accounts from as many different sources as possible... spanning across both time and space on this planet.

Well, actually, I'd say the best way is to experience it for yourself.

Originally Posted by LucidJuggalo

Well, actually, I'd say the best way is to experience it for yourself.

Lmao. Well yeah, that's technically true.

Dinkot's original questions seemed more geared at a way to find an "objective" way to prove AP. While I agree there isn't any way to prove this kind of phenomena, I've got as far as I have my self by listening... a LOT... to as many different people as I can while I go through my own experiences.

There seems to be a "level" of awakening you hit as far as dreaming goes. The dreamers that have hit this level seem convinced beyond a doubt that dreaming is more than just... dreaming. (And I've witnessed tons and tons of these people now.)Those that haven't hit this level of dreaming tend to either laugh at those that claim they have or remain healthy skeptics. (For good reasons, IMHO.) Those like my self, who have had blips of these higher levels of being but have never had a full mind-blowing experience (yet), trust those that have gone before me. (Far more than I ever did ANY religious/political leader.) I've experienced a lot of weird stuff. Finding people globally who are going through the same things you are going through really helps.

In a nutshell be open to listening, experiencing, and accepting... anything. Being able to let go of ANY pre conceived belief as soon as a newer, better one presents itself will take you faster toward your goal of understanding this both objectively (why so many people take so many different approaches and viewpoints to this topic), and subjectively as you explore your own inner world.

Cheers!

-K

I couldn't agree more. Tbh, I think that AP is more than possible. Human beings are capable of a lot of more than we could ever imagine.

I completely agree about potential.

Dinkot because of the nature of your approach here I'd recommend looking into Robert Monroe and reading, at the very least, his first book. (Journeys Out of the Body) Here was a skeptic/scientist who over the course of many years, documented and analyzed many different aspects of what was happening to him with his out of body experiences. The man takes a brilliant approach to the topic. Many of the things that happen to Monroe in his book have happened to many, many members at DV here and people all over the world.

-K

Here's an idea. You should perform an experiment in which you project onto the physical plane and come into my house and tell me what color the walls of each room in my house are. If you guess remote view correctly, then you will have officially blown my mind and made me think twice about the existence of Astral Projection.

If you guess incorrectly, then you will have to accept the sad, harsh reality that physical reality is the only real form of existence and you must forever abandon your irrational belief in astral planes and all that nonsense.

Deal?

Mind, that would be remote viewing, not AP.
The problem with AP is that it relies in everything else, so even if you can accurately do stuff like watch something from afar, that is remote viewing, share experiences/passwords, shared-dreaming or mind-reading or divination or something else, so yeah, if proof could ever be found, it would just fall in proof for something else, that is more logical than AP.

What they say doesn't matter.

Originally Posted by WakingNomad

What they say doesn't matter.

What a great mindset to have.

Originally Posted by MindGames

What a great mindset to have.

On the contrary, haters gonna hate. They don't deserve to be taken seriously, because they don't consider both sides.

The Truth is for you to determine. As Nomad has said, everything is as you perceive.

Do YOU think it's just an escape, just a dream at it's best? Or could it be an amazing and unique experience?

I agree with Nomad. It can take years and years of dedicated meditation and discipline in order to delude ones' self into thinking these things are true. Once deluded we stop caring what others think because we realize after a while that our delusions, in certain ways, are just AS real.. if not more real.. than this world ever was.

I recommend any skeptic read Monroe's book.

-K

Rational, understandably skeptical individuals don't deserve to be taken seriously? Mind you, I once used to believe in this kind of stuff until I pulled my head out of my ass and accepted that magical lands of infinite spiritual orgasm don't really exist. There is absolutely no rational basis to believe in this kind of stuff. The only reasonable explanation is that you're simply having lucid dreams.

We don't hate you for believing in Astral Projection and other metaphysical phenomena. We just think it's silly because it's so absurd and childish. There are much, much more valid explanations for what you guys claim you are experiencing. So until you or anyone else provides some good evidence that what you are experiencing is not in fact a lucid dream or any other known psychological phenomenon, perhaps you should consider, just for a second, that what you're experiencing might not actually be what you want it so much to be.

Originally Posted by MindGames

Rational, understandably skeptical individuals don't deserve to be taken seriously?

You misunderstood me. I refer to those who state something and will then refuse to even give consideration to a different point of view - It is pure closed-mindedness.

Originally Posted by MindGames

We don't hate you for believing in Astral Projection and other metaphysical phenomena.

Again, you misunderstood me. I didn't mean against individuals, but the concept of AP and likewise things.

Originally Posted by MindGames

We just think it's silly because it's so absurd and childish.

So, because something doesn't fit into your perception of what's 'normal', you label it as childish? ''What a great mindset to have.''

Originally Posted by MindGames

There are much, much more valid explanations for what you guys claim you are experiencing.

Maybe so, but consider how these explanations are coming from those who have not experienced it themselves?

Originally Posted by MindGames

So until you or anyone else provides some good evidence that what you are experiencing is not in fact a lucid dream or any other known psychological phenomenon, perhaps you should consider, just for a second, that what you're experiencing might not actually be what you want it so much to be.

That is a fair point, but what if there is no physical evidence that can be provided? After all, it is supposedly a non-physical experience. I neither believe nor disbelieve in AP and such things, purely because I haven't experienced it myself. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist though. It just means I haven't experienced it, and I shall keep an open mind until I encounter such an experience (if I ever do).

Originally Posted by LucidJuggalo

You misunderstood me. I refer to those who state something and will then refuse to even give consideration to a different point of view - It is pure closed-mindedness.

Again, you misunderstood me. I didn't mean against individuals, but the concept of AP and likewise things.

At some point in time, skeptics will give up on even trying to consider the validity of metaphysical phenomena, simply because nobody can give a good reason why it exists. There are tons of people who say they can project onto the physical plane, yet they can't even pass a simple experiment to prove it. And in the case of AP, the only thing you guys can say is to try it. However, if I did try it and I did "Astral Project", then I would stay rational, as anybody should, and consider that it is probably a lucid dream instead of taking a huge leap and saying that the phenomenon transcends physical reality. In fact, even those who have "Astral Projected" should be considering that possibility. This is the concept of Occam's Razor. Read up on it if you like. Lucid dreams can seem very, very real, and the subconscious has virtually no limits on what it can generate. This is one of the major reasons why I am skeptical of AP.

So, because something doesn't fit into your perception of what's 'normal', you label it as childish? ''What a great mindset to have.''

No, it's childish because it is completely irrational. Automatically thinking that all seemingly unexplainable phenomena simply transcends physical reality is a completely ass-backwards way of approaching anything, and look where it got everyone else in history whose metaphysical claims have been disproven. People used to think magnets had souls simply because they didn't know how they worked.

Maybe so, but consider how these explanations are coming from those who have not experienced it themselves?

Because you don't have to experience something first hand to explain it. If you say you went and fought a dragon last night and fucked Princess Peach, I can reasonably attribute that to a lucid dream.

That is a fair point, but what if there is no physical evidence that can be provided? After all, it is supposedly a non-physical experience. I neither believe nor disbelieve in AP and such things, purely because I haven't experienced it myself. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist though. It just means I haven't experienced it, and I shall keep an open mind until I encounter such an experience (if I ever do).

There's always a possibility that Astral Projection exists. But if the phenomenon can't be separated from lucid dreams, then it is absolutely uninteresting. We might as well call it a lucid dream. There's nothing saying that you actually go to another plane of existence whenever you Astral Project. Who's to say that it doesn't simply seem that way?

Originally Posted by MindGames

Rational, understandably skeptical individuals don't deserve to be taken seriously? Mind you, I once used to believe in this kind of stuff until I pulled my head out of my ass and accepted that magical lands of infinite spiritual orgasm don't really exist. There is absolutely no rational basis to believe in this kind of stuff. The only reasonable explanation is that you're simply having lucid dreams.

We don't hate you for believing in Astral Projection and other metaphysical phenomena. We just think it's silly because it's so absurd and childish. There are much, much more valid explanations for what you guys claim you are experiencing. So until you or anyone else provides some good evidence that what you are experiencing is not in fact a lucid dream or any other known psychological phenomenon, perhaps you should consider, just for a second, that what you're experiencing might not actually be what you want it so much to be.

Isn't that what they say about lucid dreaming?...

Originally Posted by Codename

Isn't that what they say about lucid dreaming?...

Who? As far as I'm concerned, lucid dreaming has been experimentally proven, so if anybody denies the existence of lucid dreaming, they're just being ignorant. It's not unreasonable that we can become conscious in our dreams (which we know exist because everybody has them).

There is absolutely no rational basis to believe in this kind of stuff.

I completely disagree.

You're free to believe in what you want.
Your friends are free to believe to what they want too.

If you find out that AP is real and they don't believe to you, you're the one getting the fun anyways; leave them.

Occam's razor is actually the approach I've taken to conclude that Astral Projection is real, but I tend to draw, "data" from humans and history, our stories, and our experiences (not to mention their metaphors) as much as I draw from science... although after a while you realize there isn't anything "simple" about these ideas. They are rather complex. Even the label, "Astral projection" is nothing more than attempting to define a level of consciousness and awareness in another sphere of REALITY that is most definitely not this one, but most assuredly as REAL as this one to the perspective of the one experiencing it.

What I mean is, I've read enough accounts and had... enough of my own experiences to know that at some level of lucidity... whether you're staring at your hands, glancing at the sky, or looking around at your surroundings... in THAT moment, your "awareness" is just as present, if not MORE present, than when you are wide awake. It causes a mind blowing moment where in that "dream-state," "astral state," whatever you want to call it, you're telling your self in your super lucidity, "This is real. Whatever is happening to me right now is totally real. I know I'm not awake and everything is that I'm seeing and experiencing is real. I can feel, smell, taste, touch, and hear... and I can create." You feel totally empowered and free, and in that moment, THIS life even feels like a dream!

You're sitting there in that complete state of awareness where you can fly, jump through walls, and feel totally free... and yet like a skeptic and a scientist, and you're going, "Well, now I'm REALLY fucking confused because I feel like I'm wide awake and on 12,000 shots of caffeine without the side effects! Why the fuck does this feel so real... even... more real than waking life?"

Most people that realize they are lucid in their dream still don't maintain their FULL level of awareness they'd have if they were awake. Imagine what it would be like to have that level of awareness and to have all 5... no... 6... of your senses working perfectly (not to mention the abilities of Goku), while you were dreaming. Would you stop in awe and fascination? You would revel in wonder and amazement?

Do you think those monks that sit there and go, "Om..." all day are just experiencing blackness and calmness? No. With enough training you learn to master access the, "dream world" through meditation via falling asleep consciously. That's all meditation on deeper levels is... falling asleep consciously and "dreaming." This "dreaming" is the Rabbit Hole. No one knows how deep it goes, but once you've fallen in and you've seen Wonderland, like Alice your curiosity gets the best of you and constantly search for more, because what you're finding and experiencing is just too damn interesting.

Now whether or not this "inner world" is a part of your soul and is part of the life/death transition is another topic. It'll suffice to say that it seems most people who have mastered the art of deep dreaming/meditation/AP/(whatever semantic label you want to use) tend to agree there is a connection between the realms accessed through dreams/meditation and what happens to consciousness at death.

Couple this all with the fact that most of the most successful people in the world were/are dreamers. Hell, "Yesterday," Paul's most famous tune, came to him in a dream. I've sat in my dreams consciously and listened to music my mind creates... the bass, the guitar, the drum, I can normally hear 5-6 different elements all harmoniously being composed. (quarter notes, triplets, you name it.) The last time it happened a few nights ago I was sitting there thinking, "damn.... I'm gonna forget this almost right away when I wake up... I really need to get a keyboard or something."

There's always a possibility that Astral Projection exists. But if the phenomenon can't be separated from lucid dreams, then it is absolutely uninteresting. We might as well call it a lucid dream. There's nothing saying that you actually go to another plane of existence whenever you Astral Project. Who's to say that it doesn't simply seem that way?

Concerning the bold: AP and Lucid Dreaming are just labels for different levels of awareness. The more aware you are while dreaming, the more doors you have access to, metaphorically speaking. Awareness is obtained through dedication and intent. Awareness leads to enlightenment and the understanding that some things can only be experienced and not explained unless you've met someone else who has experienced the same.

I admire your goal to become a natural lucid dreamer. You like anyone else are on a quest for truth and you're going to do it your own way, which is good. As someone who has been both a skeptic and believer many times, I want to say I'm confident that more and more of us are finding common ground every day, and I'm actually quite hopeful at the progress communities like these will make over the next few years.

-K

So what you're saying is basically that Astral Projection is a lucid dream in which you have heightened awareness. Where exactly does this supernatural plane come into play here?

I mean, of course you can access phenomenal and breath-taking states of mind from within a lucid dream. But that is in no way supernatural, and it doesn't give you access to any paranormal abilities. Nor does it take you to another 'plane of existence' any more than a lucid dream does so. It's simply a creation maintained within your own mind. That means that any 'entities' that you encounter on any such 'plane' are simply elaborate dream characters. So, what you're describing is simply a lucid dream. I do admire that you guys are accessing higher amounts of your cognitive resources within your dreams, though.

Originally Posted by MindGames

So what you're saying is basically that Astral Projection is a lucid dream in which you have heightened awareness. Where exactly does this supernatural plane come into play here?

If you don't mind my interjecting into the conversation....When I first astral projected 15 years ago, I tried to understand what was happening, rather than making assumptions about higher planes or just getting off on the experience. Based on my experiments, I concluded that there was no 'astral' matter, that I was just manipulating my internal map of where 'I am'. So my view was the same as what yours appears to be.

Then about 3 years ago, I started getting a lot of accurate premonitions in dreams. I'd had some of these before, and had explained them away as coincidences, extrapolation from previous experience, etc. But it got to where I was getting them pretty much every night, in ways that I could objectively demonstrate. Then these evolved beyond mere predictions, and I had a few that produced miraculous events in waking life. Unlike with the premonitions, I chose to just accept those at face value, because I didn't want to risk the consequences of an escalating series of 'proofs'. I also had a fair number of experiences where my thoughts influenced other people's dreams, and vice versa, in a verifiable manner. Now, for the past several months, all of this has mostly stopped, and I'm back to having 'normal' vivid dreams every night.

Revisiting the 'astral projection' issue, I see that my dismissal of it as 'all in my head' was not actually rational based on the information I had. Yes, I was correct that moving my 'astral' body involved manipulating a mental model of where my body was. But it doesn't follow that something being a mental model makes it 'unreal' in an astral sense. That would be an assumption, not supported by evidence. Occam's razor doesn't help here, because we don't actually have a scientific understanding of imagination that accounts for it in terms of electromagnetics and whatnot. For example, what is yellow? It is not a wavelength of light, it is mapped to a range of wavelengths in the mind. A fair amount is understood about how that mapping works, in terms of the design of the eye and the brain. But its just handwaving to say that such an explanation adequately accounts for the experience of 'yellow', because the experience of the color itself, in imagination, is actually not understood.

More generally, Occam's razor does not say anything about the likelihood of astral realms or the like, because human experience isn't actually adequately explained by current ideas about the 'physical' realm. The 'simplest' explanation for astral phenomena may involve finer states of matter or it might not. But we can't say, because we lack even the barest sketch of a real theory in either case.

I've continued to speculate that there is actually no 'astral' matter, and that the paranormal experiences that I've had can be explained in terms of unknown non-local interactions involving 'ordinary' matter. This is speculation though, and at the moment I'm leaning slightly towards there being astral matter.

In regards to the experience of 'astral projection', I don't think it can realistically be characterized as an especially vivid lucid dream. I can't prove that - and unlike my premonitions and poltergeist-type experiences, I have no objective evidence at all. But if you astrally project, I think you have to agree that there's an element there that's quite different. Many of my 'lucid' dreams have been as vivid as waking life, with my visual field being the same except for degraded peripheral vision. But those dreams are still not very much like the 'astral projection' experience. Astral projection involves moving something that isn't moved during those other dreams. I can't prove that, because I know it from feeling it move, and I can't make you know what I can feel, or demonstrate it in a scientifically rigorous manner. But that doesn't make what I am aware of utterly pretend or untrustworthy either.

Originally Posted by MindGames

I mean, of course you can access phenomenal and breath-taking states of mind from within a lucid dream. But that is in no way supernatural, and it doesn't give you access to any paranormal abilities. Nor does it take you to another 'plane of existence' any more than a lucid dream does so. It's simply a creation maintained within your own mind. That means that any 'entities' that you encounter on any such 'plane' are simply elaborate dream characters.

I share your skepticism that 'astral' experience can tell a person very much about most things. That's one reason why I've never pursued such experiences, and have no desire to have more besides the few I had. And the 'characters' in my dreams, as far as I know, are never anything 'more' than dream characters, whatever that may mean exactly. But I do experience a formless entity which I know is not merely a resident of my imagination, because it can do stuff outside of my imagination. I don't control it, so I can't prove its existence in a scientific manner by setting up repeatable experiments. But ask it a question, if you want to, about something of philosophical importance to you that you are trying to understand, and it will answer you. If it answers you in a dream tonight and you don't understand the answer, post your answer or send me a private message and I think I can probably help interpret it for you.