Thread: Dream plane existance

Im sure before you ld'd for the first time you must of heard of stories about people becoming aware with in the dream before you verified it through your own experience. Do your research on the different planes or subtle energy bodies (physical, etheric, astral, mental, causal etc.) then verify it through lucid dreaming. Reading and listening to other peoples experiences about planes of existence will open the door for you but you have to walk through the door yourself. namaste.

Originally Posted by wana

I believe in ld because of having experiencing it and i just want to know if dream and astral planes are real hearing from those who experience it (astral projection)

Originally Posted by shadowofwind

I'll write more later, but need to work for a while now. I do think that ideas involving 'astral planes' or 'vibrations' are at best half truths, and I am interested in finding new and better ways of understanding these things, even though I think its hopeless to try to use existing scientific models for that.

I don't expect our current scientific knowledge to explain everything.
I didn't mention quantum mechanics as a convenient tool for the unexplainable, but to show how many mindfucks we get over time by discovering new things... what today is pure magic, tomorrow will probably be something explainable with coherent theories

You see, even though the metaphor you wrote seems a bit... stretched to me (disasters occur very often unfortunately, and people with artistic or creative minds tend to see meanings and links pretty much everywhere), I'm sure you can mention more of them and you just gave me a great example of what actually convinced you that there's something we can't fully comprehend yet... and I agree 100%, being skeptic doesn't mean I only believe in what I directly experience -- I just want a damn good reason to.

But, in all honesty, try opening any recent thread on this forum... should I believe in the war between gods on the plane of wonders where we are all connected in some higher consciousness and stuff like that? I'd gladly do, that would be amazing, but shared dreaming is yet to prove and there's nothing out there to suggest these are not simple hallucinations spread and fueled by auto-suggestion.

The problem here is that a skeptical mind can read all this stuff with a legit bit of interest and make own conclusions, but a lot of new users blow their mind when they have their first proper LD and they jump on those threads yelling "OMG TELL ME MORE!!". People themselves who create such threads are SO high on their experience that they integrate what they see with any story they find around, most of them can't separate "dream reality" (?) and "dream imagination" anymore.

I was lucky I was introduced to this world by an experienced friend who taught me to always question everything.
Imagining the random DV lurker being discouraged by this "you don't know how serious this is, be careful guys" attitude is just infuriating.

Originally Posted by dreamcatcher81

Im sure before you ld'd for the first time you must of heard of stories about people becoming aware with in the dream before you verified it through your own experience. Do your research on the different planes or subtle energy bodies (physical, etheric, astral, mental, causal etc.) then verify it through lucid dreaming. Reading and listening to other peoples experiences about planes of existence will open the door for you but you have to walk through the door yourself. namaste.

I guess you have a point, can you then give me an example of an experience of yours that couldn't be explained as a powerful lucid dream?
Because I can sure imagine and vividly create a "chocolate plane" where I am chocolate and everything around me feels chocolate while I think with chocolate logic, but that doesn't make it real for others. Unless I write about it on this forum, others will soon start having the same experience.

But this is just in our minds. If we talk about "planes" there must be some consequences or unexplainable facts to justify the term.
I've never experienced something I couldn't explain with reason because I know I can model my OBE environment and feelings.

I ran the question "Is it logical to assume that the dream world only exists in the mental realm?" into translation telephone. Answer that came up was "This dream seems plausible only in the spiritual life of the...". Ok I admit, it's quite controversial to ask logical question from severel translation generators with somewhat random algorithm, but I got almost complete answer

Sure, below is a detailed account of my most recent lucid dream experience which happens to relate to dream planes. I recorded the same day of the experience. namaste.


Lucid Astral Dream Body Switch. http://www.dreamviews.com/f13/lucid-...switch-117395/
So to start I had this dream last night where my wife, Brother in Law and i were watching tv in the family room on a couch. A few momments later i could hear a tap at the window, my brother went to the window to see what it was. I then leaned over the couch a little to see what he was doing. He was scoring weed from some random weed man. It looked like he was exchanging money for two blunts. He then walked to the basement. I followed him dowstairs to convey to him to respect my house. When i got to the basement i could see the stair well door leading out to the backyard was cracked indicating he was probably outside smoking already. So i decided to look around the basement instead and found his friends in each one of the rooms setup like they live there. Thats when i realized i was dreaming. At that point i didn't care anything about the dream scene and wanted to experiment with something i read. I read that we have diffrent subtle bodies out side of our physical shell. So i wanted to experience one of them. I simply said " mental body now" at that point it seemed the dream caved in on its self and all of a sudden i was in a dark void flying. I had no legs, arms, or anything close to a body. I was just awareness pressing forward in a black void flying with some sensation of wind hitting me. I tried to pose a question to my higher self but since i had no body i could not speak the words i could only think them. Nothing happened after that, so i decided to wake back up. namaste

Originally Posted by Whiskee

I guess you have a point, can you then give me an example of an experience of yours that couldn't be explained as a powerful lucid dream?
Because I can sure imagine and vividly create a "chocolate plane" where I am chocolate and everything around me feels chocolate while I think with chocolate logic, but that doesn't make it real for others. Unless I write about it on this forum, others will soon start having the same experience.
But this is just a vivid LD. If we talk about "planes" there must be some consequences or unexplainable facts to justify the term.

Well, whatever you imagine can become real in your dreams, you should know that by now.
I assume you never had 360° vision or the ability to hear everything in a 10 km radius, those are sensations you can't normally explain using your senses.
Yet, that's nothing out of ordinary for a dream. "You read about" this mental body, you expected some results, your mind created them.
Floating in a black windy void doesn't seem that crazy either... this hasn't anything to do with different planes

I just want to clarify the matter mostly for the newbies as i once was so when ever they will ask "is this dream plane theory real ? " we will be able to redirect them here to this thread so continue giving proofs of your belief people

Read about it but No 360 vision yet however i have had 3rd person perception watching me and someone else do something. You can chalk that one up to the imagination if you like. If i consciously sought out something i read in this case the mental plane and had an experience consistant with what i have read about then yes it is valid to me because i have experienced it first hand. Read about the mental plane see what others say. Do you think you accidently get to diffrent planes??? Sometimes that happens but most times it actively sought out through meditation, lucid dream , drugs etc. & Sorry if my experience wasn't crazy enough for you it was what it was and it was enough verification for me at the time. Try to seek out the mental plane yourself and see what happens?? I'd be interested to hear your conclusions. namaste.

Originally Posted by Whiskee

Well, whatever you imagine can become real in your dreams, you should know that by now.
I assume you never had 360° vision or the ability to hear everything in a 10 km radius, those are sensations you can't normally explain using your senses.
Yet, that's nothing out of ordinary for a dream. "You read about" this mental body, you expected some results, your mind created them.
Floating in a black windy void doesn't seem that crazy either... this hasn't anything to do with different planes

Originally Posted by dreamcatcher81

Read about it but No 360 vision yet however i have had 3rd person perception watching me and someone else do something. You can chalk that one up to the imagination if you like. If i consciously sought out something i read in this case the mental plane and had an experience consistant with what i have read about then yes it is valid to me because i have experienced it first hand. Read about the mental plane see what others say. Do you think you accidently get to diffrent planes??? Sometimes that happens but most times it actively sought out through meditation, lucid dream , drugs etc. & Sorry if my experience wasn't crazy enough for you it was what it was and it was enough verification for me at the time. Try to seek out the mental plane yourself and see what happens?? I'd be interested to hear your conclusions. namaste.

Dreams are created in your mind, you can experience pretty much everything you are able to imagine.
(Seeing yourself in 3rd person is actually a pretty common dream)

In your next LD, try creating the feeling of a third hand. You can't really describe the sensation, but hey it's there and it's vivid. The key factor is confidence in the results, reading about this "mental body" gave it to you... so, eh. Of course it become real for you and the experience was consistant with what you thought

This doesn't mean that what you experienced was anything but a lucid dream.

Well when ever you decide to practice dream plane exploration let me know. Im assuming you havn't even tried if you have where is your personal experience. No body is asking you to believe what me or anybody else is saying, im asking you to seek it out through lucid dreaming and report back with your findings, you havn't even tried and already making assumptions about the non extistence of planes. Back up what you say with your own experience not with what someone else says.


Side note:Dream Yoga: Lucid Dreaming in Tibetan Buddhism




Excerpt: "The ultimate goal in Tibetan dream yoga is to "apprehend the dream" (attain conscious awareness) then dissolve the dream state. When you are deprived of physical stimulus (from the sleeping body) and conceptual stimulus (from the dreaming mind), you can observe the purest form of conscious awareness.That sounds like an excellent goal for any lucid dreamer. "

Originally Posted by Whiskee

Dreams are created in your mind, you can experience pretty much everything you are able to imagine.
(Seeing yourself in 3rd person is actually a pretty common dream)

In your next LD, try creating the feeling of a third hand. You can't really describe the sensation, but hey it's there and it's vivid. The key factor is confidence in the results, reading about this "mental body" gave it to you... so, eh. Of course it become real for you and the experience was consistant with what you thought

This doesn't mean that what you experienced was anything but a lucid dream.

Do you even have any idea what you are talking about?
Because you couldn't give me one, single decent example of what can't be explained as a dream.

My explorations are awesome, I don't just see the need to bring the supernatural on the table.
What you are describing are vivid sensations created by your mind, which fit perfectly in the lucid dreaming logic. Our minds are able to create pretty much everything we think about, including intense feelings, and our subconscious fill those worlds with random details recorded during our entire lives.

What unexplainable experience should I look for in my next OBE? What did you experience, to strongly believe it was not a simple LD?
LDs can have many forms and shapes, OBEs are just the most advanced (known) entrance point available.
These are not assumptions, you need to backup the existence of those "planes" with some arguments.

Im very lucid on this matter of dream planes and its existence, thats why i gave you my personal experience and reffered you to a website that's supposed to enlighten you on how dream yogis feel about dream planes and its existenence. Where is your evidence of personal experience and research on dream planes. sir??? The topic here is the existence of dream planes, or super natural planes as you so choose to put it, all i see is you making statements about what is and what isn't but where is the experience factor. When have you attempted to travel the dream planes? Im sure you can find one or two in your awesome explorations.

I made two arguments my experience with dream planes and dream yogi's position on dream planes.

So Tibetan Yogis got it all wrong they should NOT be trying to reach enlightenment from the dream state instead they need to have a obe to do that. 1000 years down the drain i guess. :-) just playing but seriously though!

By the way I never said my experience wasnt a ld i said that i went to the mental plane through a ld.

Why don't you believe in the existence of my marshmallow plane?

It's real, I have solid personal experience of it. All kind of new visions and feelings, flying through the void and that.
Yeah I don't want to give you any particular reason I believe in it because I don't have one, except someone else wrote about it and I visualized it.
What, you say it was just a lucid dream and I created every sensation? But I felt soo different! You silly, do your own research.

No offense, but that's how you sound
It's okay though, I didn't create this thread and I didn't expect anything different from it.
I think the OP got his answer.

Stop trying to convince people and give rock solid arguments of the existence of dream planes and other astral stuff

Originally Posted by wana

Stop trying to convince people and give rock solid arguments of the existence of dream planes and other astral stuff

There will not be "rock solid arguments" because the dream planes and other astral stuff are only as real as you let them be, and as such if you yourself don't believe than no amount of "proof" will ever satisfy you. So just be open minded and go explore your mind, don't let anyone influence you one way or another.

Originally Posted by wana

Stop trying to convince people and give rock solid arguments of the existence of dream planes and other astral stuff

I'm confused, where you not the one to start this thread and wanted evidence of such things?

Marshmallow plane, thats funny. & no offense taken your just convinced of something you havn't tried to persue yet on a personal level. You cant understand what you havn't experienced so dream planes remains fiction for you and reality for others. namaste.

Originally Posted by Whiskee

Why don't you believe in the existence of my marshmallow plane?

It's real, I have solid personal experience of it. All kind of new visions and feelings, flying through the void and that.
Yeah I don't want to give you any particular reason I believe in it because I don't have one, except someone else wrote about it and I visualized it.
What, you say it was just a lucid dream and I created every sensation? But I felt soo different! You silly, do your own research.

No offense, but that's how you sound
It's okay though, I didn't create this thread and I didn't expect anything different from it.
I think the OP got his answer.

Originally Posted by wana

Stop trying to convince people and give rock solid arguments of the existence of dream planes and other astral stuff

what im trying to do is convince u to atleasts try before you make conclusions. Neither of you two have tried
& If you dont respect my personal experience fine thats your own opinion but dream yogi's position on dream planes is solid evidence. They even relate to my experience in some ways if u cant see that look again. It's obvious you can't rebutt that argument logically. PEACE.

Actually, I have experienced very strange and intense sensations especially after I first started reading this forum (I only registered weeks ago).
The difference is that I recognize I created those worlds in my mind, spoiling them from the idea of shared planes.
I strongly believe they are a vivid form of LD, where you are not always in complete control, and nothing ever persuaded me otherwise.
That's why I asked what convinced YOU about the existence of that stuff. And you didn't really answer... I hope it was not a forum post

I told you i read and validate through experience, if my experience is not good enough for you, oh well thats why its my experience open up your mind a little and get your own experience with dream planes. Atleast say hay i tried and failed so it must not exist. Be a practioner and share what you found. Now do you want to try to rebutt dream yogi's position on dream planes??? Are they wrong in thinking dream planes exist??

Originally Posted by Whiskee

Actually, I have experienced very strange and intense sensations especially after I first started reading this forum (I only registered weeks ago).
The difference is that I recognize I created those worlds in my mind, spoiling them from the idea of shared planes.
I strongly believe they are a vivid form of LD, where you are not always in complete control, and nothing ever persuaded me otherwise.
That's why I asked what convinced YOU about the existence of that stuff. And you didn't really answer... I hope it was not a forum post

Whiskee:

Like you, I also see a lot of people who suppose that anything they imagine that seems compelling must be real. Lots of stuff I read on this site practically makes my head explode, for example the way people throw the word 'energy' around. But a person can argue for your whole life without convincing any of them, because of what their motives are.

At the other extreme are people who disbelieve in anything that they can't nail down and define neatly, as if they're afraid of the existence of anything that can't be owned by their intellect. Those people are nearly impossible to convince also.

In between are hard questions that remain unsolved because they don't yield themselves to either mindset. It seems to me that if a person wants to make significant headway on those questions, one can't worry too much about those other people, because they aren't going to help very much.

The two most intelligent and psychically powerful people I've met are scared of dream phenomena, and imagine a Manichean struggle between good and evil. In my view, they're trying to hide from parts of themselves that they are unwilling or unable to face. So you could say its all in their heads. But neither one of these people started out this way, paranoid like this. They started off cheerfully and confidently exploring their inner experiences, and the paranoia developed over a period of several decades of experience. Both of these people also had multiple friends and relatives whom they encouraged to explore in those directions, and who went nuts and had to be institutionalized.

You don't like people coming on here and being all alarmist. OK. I agree that most people who talk about fighting demons and vampirism should just chill and relax the whole Lord of the Rings fantasy. But I also know people who's lives have been ruined by the pursuit of exotic dream experiences, including a couple who died as a consequence. Would it be honest or responsible for me to just dismiss their stories, without bothering to try to fully understanding them, and not try to share what I've seen with other people? By way of analogy, in a lot of ways its a similar story as with drugs. When you're 19, you don't know many people who have crippled or killed themselves with LSD or heroin, and the ones you do know generally had other problems, or you can just write it off as bad luck. But by the time you're 40, its likely that most recreational users you've known have become seriously addicted at some point, or overdosed causing brain damage, or had some other serious problems. If you're one of those exceptional people who has been using for 20 years and has never had an obvious issue, its pretty arrogant to just blow off all those other people's troubles as if they're those people's fault, while encouraging other young people to get involved with the drugs.

So yeah, at times I'm going to caution people about cultivating certain exotic dream experiences, because it would be wrong for me not to, given what I've seen and having thought a lot about what I've seen. That doesn't mean that we should be all heavy and paranoid about everything, or hide from the deeper part of ourselves, or not try to learn and grow. But my story is as valid as anyone else's here, and its probably got a lot more years of dreaming experience and skeptical analysis than most, so I think that qualifies me to say something.

Changing the topic slightly....Strictly speaking, objects do not have color, and light doesn't have color. Mentally we involuntarily assign colors to various frequencies, but the experience of color is entirely within one's imagination. Similarly, the experience we call 'sound' is quite a bit removed from vibrations in air. If someone says "the sky is blue", a skeptic does not typically respond with "not its not, its only blue in your imagination". One reason for that, is most people map colors in approximately the same way, so there is an objective reality loosely related to the blueness.

Suppose that you were a member of a species where only 1 in a million individuals could see color, and you lived in a period of low technological development where light couldn't be measured using other means. If someone were to tell you, "color is in your imagination", they would be right. And it would be nearly impossible for you to convince other people that color was in in some sense real. And yet, somehow you have to represent what you are experiencing to yourself. My point here is that ideas about 'astral planes' are probably mostly wrong. And yet, in the absence of other ideas which they can understand, and which better fit their experiences, people still have to work with their ideas. You seem not to require an 'astral plane' to describe your experiences. And yet, you actually don't have another model that substitutes for it either. Take the color yellow as an example. A person could write a book about eyes and cones and optic nerves, and processing in the cerebral cortex, and then wave their hands and say "we have explained yellow". But actually they still have not touched on what yellow actually is, they've just described a bunch of stuff peripheral to it. I think that most of what people describe as being 'astral' is actually peripheral to what actually inspires to believe in an 'astral plane'. The 'astral plane' idea is only a step in that direction, and its inadequate. But if you could somehow succeed in taking away that description from them, leaving them just with the descriptions that you use, you would actually leave them less well equipped to think about other subtle experiences having to do with power and motive which are very difficult for people to think about or describe.

If you (or anyone else) wants to send me a private message about it, I'm willing to attempt to show how to have an objectively verifiable shared dreaming experience. I can't guarantee results, because its not something I entirely control even for myself, and of course by definition there's two people involved. This wouldn't be a shared dream in the sense of two people being lucid in the same dream, it would be a private dream with information content passed from the other person.

@dreamcatcher:

You are so wrong assuming I didn't do my homeworks about those claims.
I just strongly believe that my mind created everything I've experienced, because my lucid dreams are whatever I want them to be.
I'm 100% confident I can recreate any myth posted on DV, because I've already done that in two different occasions

OBEs are not that different, except for a different approach that gives more depth and realism at the expense of some control over DCs.
What, just to ask for the fifth or sixth time, impressed you so much that you absolutely refuse the idea of a fake world in your mind?

Originally Posted by shadowofwind

But I also know people who's lives have been ruined by the pursuit of exotic dream experiences, including a couple who died as a consequence.

I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but could you explain how that happened?

@shadowfiend:

Anything taken too seriously can lead to insanity, this is especially true for lucid dreaming which deals heavily with your subconscious.
That's the very reason I'd rather not see new users be scared by demons, creatures sucking your energy and complex plane theories.
They should explore OBEs freely and share their experiences, but never take anything as absolute -- or it will become so.
You can't deny a lot of weird theories are presented and discussed here on DV as acknowledged truths... this is just wrong.

About colors: why should I need a model for my experiences? I've never called it "imagination", I've said it's all in my mind.
All your sensations while awake come from your 5 senses and are processed by your brain, everyone sees the world in a slightly different way.
While dreaming, your mind CAN create completely new feelings out of nowhere. Have you ever seen a non-existant color in a dream? Hell, I did.
I spent something like 30 seconds trying to recognize it. I can't honestly describe it, because that was obviously fake and yet extremely convincing.
What I know is that my mind is able to do such things and there's no need to invent planes for it unless there's something more.

Anyways, your shared dreaming experiment sounds interesting... as I've said, being skeptical doesn't mean rejecting everything.
Please tell me more, I'm genuinely curious

Your opinion is your opinion im not saying your right or wrong in this way, however you are dead wrong in thinking i have mis evaluated my own personal experience. if you want to walk that road of steping into other peoples experience with out even having your own in regards to dream planes fine. Rebutt dream yogi's positions on dream planes existence. I have asked u this several times and you dont have any response, i'll take your silence on dream yogi's as respect for their opinion on dream planes and respect for mine because i to believe in them just like they do through personal experience.

Originally Posted by Whiskee

@dreamcatcher:

You are so wrong assuming I didn't do my homeworks about those claims.
I just strongly believe that my mind created everything I've experienced, because my lucid dreams are whatever I want them to be.
I'm 100% confident I can recreate any myth posted on DV, because I've already done that in two different occasions

OBEs are not that different, except for a different approach that gives more depth and realism at the expense of some control over DCs.
What, just to ask for the fifth or sixth time, impressed you so much that you absolutely refuse the idea of a fake world in your mind?