partial mind meld in dreams

[shadowofwind]

This is intended as a shared dreaming conversation continuation, in a fresh thread that's not an unwelcome hijacking of other discussions. I think that every person in some sense has every other person's identity inside their own, in microcosm. When I try to understand what you're saying, reading your thought behind the words, I am moving my awareness a little bit to the part of myself that is you. There are different kinds of 'shared dreaming' experiences because there are different ways to direct and qualify attention, but it seems to me to be the same kind of thing. When you reach out and touch somebody, mostly you grasp an image of them, and what you are reaching for slips through your fingers. But there is some truth in the image, you taste it a little bit and crave more. I care about shared dreaming because it seems to me to be connected to this unity that we seek. I care about moral truth because I think it is related to the loss of this deep communication. I agree that much of the discussion is pointless, people trying to own the sun, to fit it into their own paradigm that they are masters of. I think this problem isn't inherent in discussion, its what people are trying to do by discussing or not discussing.

[Sivason]

I may understand what you are refering to. In the concept of unity vs duality, it is thought that at some point the universe still exists as one connected object. In that line of thought to truely experience the lack of duality takes away the individuals wants and feelings. In fact it can not even really be visualized as it is one of those far out ideas like AP and dimensional travel and so on. The nature of a non-duel state is hard to fathom. We mostly agree that science points towards a non-dual stae before the physical realm began. Hindu mystics may claim, that the appearnt duality in which everything is existing is viewable and knowable from different prespectives. That is that in some sense the creation part of all this, is like imagery, it did not shatter or rend the the non-dual nature of things. They call it an illusion that hides the original nature of our universe from those whose existence is centered in that apparently physical world. I wont go on about that, but it lends an idea to any concept like ESP or shared dreams. I have found that in many mystical systems the begining way to view contact with others is as an external thing while the advanced concept makes it internal. Instead of picturing an energy emiting from yourself in the physical world, which is then received by some else, the advanced idea is that in truth we have conact to every part of existance including other peoples thoughts, the past, and objects far away. This contact is through some mechanism I can not explain. It sounds far out and hippyish. But I did not make it up, and I mostly believe it. So, to summerize. The universe was all one thing at the T=0 state of the bigbang. Hindus claim an aspect of that all connectedness has existed the whole time, but is hard to understand, because we are creations of the intentional illusion of seperation. The nature of our appearant universe is only imagery in a sense, as real as duality is to us, the non-dual state is still there (very deep hard stuff here). My theory: In some degree slightly removed from true non-duality, a state exists where we are in contact with everything in the dualty rich universe. It is a hard to grasp idea, but really should not fall outside of potential science. I have been wondering what sci-fi writers mean by sub-space. It allows the fictional ships to communicate instantly over many light years distance. I suppose if science gets to the bottom of this everything is one stuff it will open doors like this for us to use. So Shadowofwind, maybe we are not thinking about it the same, but the way I view it is that on that ?sub-space? level me and you are not disconnected, so your thoughts are part of me. There is in fact real validity to the idea you have suggested using this Hindu/sci-fi spin. It is such a hard concept if we want to science it out, but it is something I do believe is likely to be real. I get confused on the hows, but that is always the case when phenomina is observed and not yet understood.

[Sageous]

My theory: In some degree slightly removed from true non-duality, a state exists where we are in contact with everything in the dualty rich universe. It is a hard to grasp idea, but really should not fall outside of potential science. I have been wondering what sci-fi writers mean by sub-space. It allows the fictional ships to communicate instantly over many light years distance. I suppose if science gets to the bottom of this everything is one stuff it will open doors like this for us to use. I think the mystics and yogis were on to something when they "discovered" non-duality. Unfortunately, over the centuries they have so codified the concept within their religious or theosophic creeds that the real -- and very simple -- nature of duality/non-duality has been either forgotten or turned into, as you say, "very deep hard stuff," almost institutionally removed from regular folks' reach ... Unless they have experienced a shared dream or something similar. Which gets me to your theory: I think that the phenomenon of shared dreaming (and other things, like transcendental dreams, remote viewing, ESP, clairvoyance, etc) might be nothing more than our incidental fusion with that single, non-dual universe. How far we can step back (or is it forward?) from our natural duality is how close we can come to experiencing things that exist in that spiritually singular "universe" that tends to avoid our perception, or interest. I also think that what Shadowofwind says about every other person's identity existing in ours, and ours in theirs, plays right into your theory, Sivason. Shared dreaming, in the end, might just be a matter of simply paying attention to, well, everybody. Or I could have it all wrong, I suppose...

[dutchraptor]

I agree that much of the discussion is pointless, people trying to own the sun, to fit it into their own paradigm that they are masters of. I think this problem isn't inherent in discussion, its what people are trying to do by discussing or not discussing. I don't know what I want from these threads but its this discussion which keeps pulling me back. Most of the time we all just want each other to accept each others point of views but I think I really have gained something from this discussion. I know it sounds cheesy but I have become more open towards the subject, I also think I have learned what exactly dream sharing is to some people thanks to yourself and sivason.

[shadowofwind]

I think that duality is as real as non-duality, and that both are essential. I agree that 'spirit' is non-dual relative to 'matter', though the same two principles are present on every level. Thanks both of you, yes I learn and grow from this process also.

[Sivason]

I think that duality is as real as non-duality, and that both are essential. I agree that 'spirit' is non-dual relative to 'matter', though the same two principles are present on every level. Thanks both of you, yes I learn and grow from this process also. Yes, normally you would not need to convince anyone of the duality, just non-duality. I have often stated that this physical world is composed of an illusory maluable material closely related to dream material. I should explain just a bit. Totally simplifying and making up a way to describe it on the spot, so if it does not make sense, let me know. Lets call the non-duality a mass of clay. In its non-dual state we can not even measure it, as there is nothing but it. It just is what it is 'clay.' It is not big or round as those are ideas and nothing exists in this state except for clay (not even an idea). Now if we insert space we can start defining the clay by the lack of it. A bubble of space with in the clay can be measured and given a shape such as a small round space with in the clay. Now we have the beginning of Duality. Still clay is the only thing in existence, but in this state of duality, we now have clay and lack of clay. By taking clay away we can start to shape things. We can add concepts like round and big. In this example clay is alot like the E in our E=MC2 energy to mass conversion. If we create a model of a car and a horse, we now run into the problem of understanding duality/non-duality. If I argue that there is nothing but clay, I am wrong, in a sense. It is clear that there is the shape of a car and horse, how could I argue against that. So one version is that there is nothing in existence except for the initial clay. The other would be that everything formed by the clay exists. I say clay, you say San Deigo or Hawaii. That is the very simple version,,, nothing but clay, despite the truth that it looks like Hawaii or a horse. Now, when I tell people that the universe is composed of dream matter (the creative force's clay) they say something like this,,, "If this is really a dream, why don't you cut off your hand and prove it!" Hey, it is not actually my dream, and has a very, very stablized nature to it. If I cut off my 'dream' hand, I now am in a very bad dream! I now will continue to be in a dream in which I stupidly cut off my hand. How can any of this be supported? Here are just a couple quick ideas. There does not seem to be multiple components to this physical world. We first concluded that atoms were the base material, then that all atoms are actually composed of 3 seperate things electron, neutron, proton. So from dozens of prime components to 3. Now we are figuring out that those three things are each composed of quarks (help me here Shadowofwind if I am off base). My understanding is not up to what we have decided after that, but basically the prime 3 are made of the same thing, just layed out in new patterns. So support one: everything seems to be composed of the same exact stuff on a sub atomic level. What is the stuff? At the point of electrons and light photons the boundary between matter and energy is fuzzy, but if you go smaller then no matter seems to exist. The component that is at the bottom of the everything is energy. That is how we make atomic explosions, by converting a tiny amount of matter back into energy. Support 2: Everything is created from energy, the solid state of matter does not exist at the smallest component level. The big bang appears to have held all the energy off the universe, but seems to have suddenly appeared out of nothing. Support 3: That sounds a lot like a dreamer creating a dream world "Let there be light." Watch these new space shows. The universe is huge and weird on a fabulous level. Not millions of anything, but unimaginable amounts of everything. Support 4: Our understanding of nature makes this seem fantastic, but the 'dream' nature would be suppported any time something seems too amazing. How big is it? As big as the creative force cares to dream. A hundred billion light years? Sure, no wait bigger! No limit speaks to me of dream potential. How bizaar is it? As crazy as the creative force can picture. Crazy things like super massive black holes? Sure, how about billions of super massive black holes? Sure, why not? As weird as it can dream. How can this concept help us? We are rational adults, who can know that the true nature of things is pure energy, and still avoid doing stupid things. The fact that I do in fact believe (know) that this is a type of dream, does not meanIi fail to understand the basic rules of the dream. I can understand the fact that I am 'clay', you are 'clay' and even the very thought of clay is 'clay.' So, step one, I can still be a rational adult and believe this stuff; I will not be compelled to jump off a building or anything. I can however, have a plausable belief system that allows for all manner of paranormal events. If the universe is actually made of a malluable dream matterial, why would I limit the dreamer (creative force) who came up with super massive black holes, by suggesting that shared dreams is more than a shrug or dust particle in comparison? Anything can exist! It will normally use science in order to exist, but as quantum and other physics are showing, things can be much odder and more counter intuitive than simple physics. Here is the source of truely powerful magical/psycic ability. If you still believe that this is a solid no nonsense world, then you will be limited by your own beliefs. Understanding that a creative force that powerful exists and that this material is something much weirder than it appears allows for anything. I am handing any of you who care the secret to unlimited potential. In a world where you believe things are not possable you are unlikely to achieve them. I am not suggesting that you need to believe for shared dreams to be real. Just that the chances of suceeding at anything you do not believe in is less. This thought system (shared by hundreds of millions) is in compliance with science, does not name a savior or special figure which adds doubt (bias), and allows a frame work for understanding that anything could be possable. So Sivason says anything is possable? Fine, lets see him turn invisable, the smart ass! Hey, super massive black holes are possable, butIi can't create one in my back yard, so what. It does mean that science will not reach any true limits. If we keep going we will be able to create just about any thing we dream up, like warp speed or transporters. It also means that someone could experience any manner of experience, such as ESP or shared dreaming. Maybe true shared dreaming is like atomic energy, in that it would take some advancement by brilliant pioneers to be practicable in a repeatable reliable manner. However, this model for reality, is not so far fetched, and allows for all things like that.

[Sageous]

Shadowofwind, that OP was downright graceful -- I hope it spurs an outstanding and for a change thoughtful exchange about shared-dreaming as more of those who care notice it! That said, I think you and Sivason are talking about very much the same thing, though I can't help but chuckle at the oh-so familiar distance separating your initial points of departure! My thoughts on this subject -- as you well know -- are similar to Sivason's, though mine rarely contain actual knowledge, so maybe Sivason will finally make some of those points I always wanted to make! Good luck with the thread (to everybody), and should I join the conversation I promise here and now to not bring up any ideas for simple experiments to prove shared-dreaming, and to avoid the word "how" to the best of my abilities (unless someone else brings it up.

[Sageous]

Okay, so everything is energy and we all have each others identity within us ... both those ideas are somehow intertwined, I think, and I have no trouble working with either, or both. But for some reason what you guys wrote got me rethinking a problem with shared dreaming that's bugged me for a while (I don't think this thought is non sequitur, but if you do, please bear with me, or just ignore): Let's accept fully that the universe(s) supports shared-dreaming, and that it is fully possible to do so simply by paying attention to Sivason's Clay, and the unique signatures of identities enfolded in the Clay, and in us. There. Shared-dreaming is real. But how do we go about actually sharing? What I'm saying is that even if you can easily navigate some universal shared-dreaming expressway, how will you recognize the fellow travelers with whom you wish to share, and they, you? Forget recognizing, how would you even find your target? I ask this for two reasons. First, the universe doesn't speak our language, and we don't speak Universi, so I have trouble seeing any way to read that expressway's roadmap, street signs, and mileposts, much less asking for markers that confirm that the person we're looking for is on this particular highway, and where. Sure, your dream-sharing target might have a specific energy signature, but we don't speak "energi" either, so that signature would be meaningless. And, even if we could speak energi, that signature would be one among, and likely very similar to, many billions of others. This signature would be as difficult (or easy, depending on your point of view) to find if the person was sleeping right next to you or across the globe, because that whole "Clay" non-dual universe (where I think the shared-dreaming expressway runs) isn't hampered by (or blessed with) time and space. Second, everyone's sense of perception is different. What we see in our dreams is likely very different from what other people see. This includes how we see ourselves. On top of that, there is an excellent chance that, even if you manage to find yourself in someone else's dream, your avatar will look nothing like you, because its energy signature is being interpreted by someone else. You might think you appeared in your friend's dream as yourself, but your target might interpret your arrival as a new sofa in his dream living room. Then, if the sofa talks, your target might hear gibberish, white noise, or nothing at all, because the universe doesn't speak your language, and the target's dreamscape has no air to physically carry words (and remember, you're a sofa -- but don't know that -- so your clever signing idea won't work either). I think this last bit matters for serendipitus connections as well, so even if you accidentally share a dream with a stranger, there seems little chance of knowing it is happening, much less communicating. Again, I'm asking this question with the assumption that shared-dreaming can and does happen! I just have to wonder about the mechanics of it: Could there be a universal "ether router" built into our souls that we don't know about, but does allow us to observe the Clay, successfully locate our target, and then return to duality in order to converse with the target? By extension, could we also have that "Universi" language built into our unconscious minds as well? I suspect we would need to. I suspect also that things like high-end LD'ing and meditation might be the only tools to consciously tap that router and language. Finally, I think both of you guys are "deep" enough to avoid answering this question with things like "I just will know where my target is," or "You can speak to others in dreams because I've done it." Sorry if this is off topic or makes no sense at all -- it was just wandering through my mind this morning, so I thought I'd share.

[dutchraptor]

Good point sageous. Their are only two possibilities to the problem you suggest either; 1) Dreams are not actually present within the brain at all but are contained in some type of server. We could connect to this server, it would be like an alternate reality. 2) There are organs in our brain which would allow us to take in external information from other people's minds. As in option two the dream is in one of the sharers minds I don't think that everyone would have full control and also everyone would interpret the dream differently. Therefore I'd say the dream must be held outside of the body or we must give each other full access to eachothers brains ie not just sharing a dream with nearly completely connected.

[Sageous]

Their are only two possibilities to the problem you suggest either; 1) Dreams are not actually present within the brain at all but are contained in some type of server. We could connect to this server, it would be like an alternate reality. Though I really never bought into the "dreams are somewhere else" theory, I don't think that matters here: even if that were true, we would still be tapping that dream mainframe without the tools necessary to purposely navigate it, or even to understand where in the "system" we ever happen to be ... much less find someone else in the vast circuitry. Could we also perhaps have the tools for navigation buried in or unconscious minds? Maybe. 2) There are organs in our brain which would allow us to take in external information from other people's minds. As in option two the dream is in one of the sharers minds I don't think that everyone would have full control and also everyone would interpret the dream differently. Therefore I'd say the dream must be held outside of the body or we must give each other full access to eachothers brains ie not just sharing a dream with nearly completely connected. Again, even if that organ (or currently undiscovered mental function) exists, and we have full access to each other's minds (and hell, throw in a readable circuit diagram from #1), there is still the problem of correctly perceiving your target, and she, you. I think that the root of my question, and the real mystery of shared-dreaming, is that we must do so using our own limited tools for perception and communication. We may well all be naturally sharing dreams with each other every night, but we lack the mental/spiritual/metaphysical chops to purposely communicate with selected individuals. ... I just thought of a good analogy to describe what I'm saying: Successful shared dreaming is akin to being handed a million-page phone book written in a completely alien language and with all names listed randomly, and then being asked to quickly find one specific listing. Then there's the whole dialing the phone and getting them to pick up half of the analogy, but I can't get that to work as well.

[shadowofwind]

My guess is that the 'hardware' we are using when we dream is our own brains, and to a lesser extent the brains of other people we are sharing dreams with. When we die we don't have that hardware any more, except to the extent we remain connected with living people, which is part of why it is necessary for people to continue being born. A few days ago I had dreams that seemed to be from the standpoint of a familiar spirit who's intelligence is distributed, not associated with a particular body. My memory of this is vague, in part because its so different from my usual experience. How such a spirit coordinates its thoughts between different locations I have no idea - its the same problem as how we 'find' someone who's thoughts we find in a dream. Of course, I have no idea how I 'find' memories in my own mind either, even though most of us assume there must be some straightforward electrochemical mechanism for that. Last night before going to bed I watched a few go games by a 'bot called Zen19D. This program, which runs on 6 networked PC's, is 5 stones stronger than me, and I'm a pretty good player. (Pretty good all depends on context of course - I'd might be the best player at a club in a large American city, but I'd get creamed in other venues.) Playing go depends strongly on intuition among human players - I play as well as I do for much the same reason I have interesting dreams. Though the go-bot is just software, it displays what appears to be a level of creativity not matched by most human players. The go-bot probably has a stochastic element in its algorithm. If that triggers off of the clock, then it depends on the precise timing of the moves of the opposing player. And to me that implies that a subconscious/familiar spirit could probably steer the program's play by influencing the opposing player. (I think spirit can do this since it can do this with other events including things like Tarot cards.) How though would the spirit 'know' which move time would trigger the desired result from the software? To "know" that in a causal, calculating sense, it would have to be able to mimic the computation path of the program ahead of time for numerous scenarios, then pick a particular one. This seems to me to be the same problem as with dream premonitions: is seems to require an implausibly large calculation ability. How can a prophetic spirit possibly run through a mental approximation of all the chaotically complex scenarios and come up with an outcome? I don't think it works on that principle. The go-bot itself faces a similar problem, in that it can't possibly search through the tree of possible moves, which is vastly larger than the number of atoms in the observable universe. (By observable I mean light has had time to get here since the big bang.) One aspect of what the go-bot does is play through a random collection of possible future games, picking the move that tends to result in more successful games. A feature of this that is strange to me is that those games don't need to be 'good' games, the moves can be of a quality far below those of the game that is actually being played. Somehow this produces strategically good moves, even though it has to be combined with other techniques to obtain moves that are tactically good also. I think the subconscious/dream/fate mind does something like this also. Somehow it can see a huge collection of futures, most of which aren't possible and don't even make a lot of sense, and somehow from that it extracts something that works. It doesn't reason through it using simplified models like how we do. And this isn't merely how accurate prophecies are produced, its how the future itself is produced. Its as if all the nonsensical stuff points in different directions and cancels out, and what's left is what is willed that is easy in some energy minimizing sense. This is my intuition anyway, supported by dream and other experiences that seem designed to teach this. I can't say of course to what extent this intuition is influenced by my subconscious extension of Feynmann's 'sum of histories' physics model, and to what extent it is influenced by the thoughts of people like WakingNomad who see the 'dream plane' like this. I think there's something to it though, in other words I think there's truth to that view of the dream plane. ********************************************* A few additional comments after a night of weird dreams.... Something like reincarnation fits into this shared identity idea. Whatever lives are close to the surface in your being can be found there, but there's no end to what can be dug up. When you share with someone, it rearranges you, bringing something of them closer to the surface of who you are. This of course is the value of sharing, but it carries the risk of changing you into something you don't want to be. Anything that works on this shared identity principle cuts both ways. An oracle can tell you about things that were hidden from you, but using it also exposes you to whatever minds and other influences are connected to the oracle, such as the other people who use it.

[Sivason]

From my own personal experience I think the server idea Dutchraptor suggests makes the most sense. I have preceived through experience (perhaps wrongly) that if we use the internet example it is very handy for describing the workings of AP and shared dream ideas. We each get our own computer. We can happily play games and do work on our own terminal and never connect to the internet. The option also exists to kind of leave your own system. In this analogy we do not use the internet by leaving our home PC. We branch out in a sense. The bulk of the processing is still going on in the home PC (our brains), however a place of connectedness exists (the server) exists for interaction. This would make shared dreams like this forum. We keep a personal identity but also interact with others. As far as finding another person, I think they would both need to be able to get to the same server and get to the same place. I used to play an on-line RGP, and in order to find a person, you would first decide on a server (ex: World #7) and then would need to decide on a common location (ex: the fountain outside the bank). So, how to get this ability? I have to admit to anyone who thinks I have alot of adavnced seeming knowledge, that much of it was taught to me, by a couple of people native to the dream plane (on line mods?). That sounds exotic in itself, but my point is, I (humble little old me) may be could not have done much of what i have done or learned much of what I have learned, if I had not been choosen as a real serious student by these creatures. Left to my own, I have no reliable way to end up on the internet (AP ? Dream realm). Unaided I just seem to keep dialing numbers and hope for random access. In the best shared dream (with entities) settings, i am a guest and have been taken with in a stable envirement. Travel out side these established boundaries was not taught to me until about 20 years into the training, or 5ish years ago. It is crazy the way the astral (or what ever) moves! It is not like travel from one earth city to another. The time needed to travel is little, but the eviroment is like a thrashing sea. things spin and currents must be negotiated. The truth is I have only attempted travel out side one of the established zones about a dozen times on my own, and it is breath taking in the complete lack of control I feel and other worldly nature of it. So, here is what I get from this. If we wanted to aquire a technology that was very advanced, like 'warp drive,' the easiest way would be to have it taught to us by aliens. The radio was invented by smart people, but copied by countless ordinary people. I think every serious expllorer of the inner worlds should go about obtaining the tutalage of a native instructor. With out the help of such beings I can not imagine how i would have ever achieved half of the LD things i have. How to find one? I can only suggest from my experience, the following. Develop your LD control to a fine and masterful level. This requires that you take the attitude that LD time is like going to the gym or a martial arts class. Stop, running around at random doing whatever occurs to you. Spend the time getting finer and finer control. Try to avoid acting out! If one of these things starts observing you, and you do wicked or hostile things, they may leave shaking their heads. The final and most important thing, is to actually call out in your LDs. Practice your voice, not projecting thought, but a recreation of true sound in the dream. Then call out asking for a little help figuring out what to do. That may not help with Sageous' brain stroming on how it could be done. My suggestion is about as good as saying 'the nature of Pi comes from,,,, go find a math teacher.' However, it is the only honest advice I have that would not be a total quess.