You make good points, Daredevilpwn, but there still might be a couple of pieces I can't agree with. Let me make noise one more time -- I hope you'll bear with me:
Originally Posted by Daredevilpwn
" Dreams, being universes created by our minds exclusively for our minds (aka. all about us), are by definition and mature inspection not real." In a physical sense yeah your right it isn't real. But just because something isn't physical does that not make it any less real than physical reality?
Yes, it does. Every time. Something may seem real in a dream, but that does not by any measure mean that it is real. There truly is a stark difference between dreaming "reality" and waking-life reality. You can absolutely believe everything in a NLD is totally real, but the moment you wake up it is gone, and seconds later you confirm to yourself that all that stuff you were sure was real was "just a dream." When you go to sleep at night, the waking world you're leaving behind does not disappear; regardless of what your own perception "sees," it is still there, with or without you. And, when you wake up in the morning, your mind quickly re-establishes its position in reality, and it fully expects what was there when your eyes closed to be there when they open. I think this difference is significant, and understanding it is critical to getting the most out of your lucid times in dreams. ... In my mind this statement reflects reality itself, but if you want to continue calling it an opinion, I'll respect that.
Like I said earlier what makes it real is not because it's physical but because the experience you gain from it. Let me give you an example. A doctor uses lucid dreaming to perfect the way he makes incisions. This experience is real because not only did he learn something that he can apply in the physical world but also the muscle memory of doing the incisions remain with him. This is what I mean by 'real'.
If you ever meet a surgeon who claims to have learned, or even successfully honed, his skills in his dreams, you are likely also meeting a liar, or a very bad surgeon.
Though this might seem a good example at first glance, I don't think so, because a surgeon cannot practice during his dream the most important thing he must master as a surgeon: dealing with the unexpected. One of the reasons surgeons' (and other similar highly skilled professionals') skills are so highly valued is that they were able to learn to perform a task that is extremely difficult to master simply because so much of it is a dive into the unknown. A surgeon cutting into your body depends more on his knowledge, confidence, and steadiness than he does on all the practice he got making incisions (though he did plenty of that as well, of course).
Basically, if they practice surgery in their dreams doctors will never be surprised, or challenged by unexpected complications. Why? Because they can only operate on DC patients who are performing exactly as expected. Also, there is no way to learn muscle memory like that in a dream, because surgery is a matter of touch, and the muscle memory learned to perfect that touch comes specifically from teaching the muscles to do a thing they never did before. If a surgeon is cutting into a DC, he is basing his entire dream incision on what he already knows, so his muscles are learning nothing new ... not to mention that muscle memory requires the use of actual muscles, so, since the surgeon's physical body is not participating in the dream, his muscles will learn nothing.
So sure, a surgeon might practice cutting in a dream, but surgery in reality is so much more -- I'd rather be under the knife of a doctor who got his experience navigating the challenges, surprises, and emergencies of waking life, I think!
Another example of this is our emotions. They aren't physical but you can definitely experience them so once again in that sense it is 'real'.
Absolutely true. But do emotions really define reality, or are they simply our reaction to whatever we're currently experiencing, be it real or not? By extension, what you're saying means that movies, video games, even books and music become concrete reality if you react to them with emotion. When you're watching a movie, do you really believe it is real simply because it is scaring you, or making you laugh or cry? I doubt it. Why are dreams different, from this perspective? I agree that emotions are a powerful thing, and are very "real" on a personal level wherever you're experiencing them. But I don't think the fact of their existence means that whatever you're responding emotionally to must be real.
I hope this made sense, Daredevilpwn, and I hope you understand that I'm not trying to be confrontational. I just wanted to be clear that physical reality is a "real" thing that exists regardless of our presence, input, or reaction to it. Dreams may seem utterly real, but they cannot exist without our presence, input, or reaction. When we wake up, they're gone, completely (even the memory of NLD's tends to fade rapidly). Reality simply does not do that. I guess I was just trying to say that you can believe something is real all you want, but if it isn't real, it isn't real. If your entire dreamscape vanishes the moment you wake up, then it was never real. BTW, you're waking up into a place that is essentially the same as you left it when you went to sleep, which is the difference I'm describing defined.
And again, all this pertains directly to my premise that dreams are an invention of our minds, and nothing more. Should actual reality find a way into our dreams, then we'd be discussing something altogether different.
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