Thread: What makes you think dreams are fake and waking life is real?

Hi Daredevil. I think your thoery is very cool. I am not a scientist by any means but I am fairly sure this is false. I say this because the characters in are dreams are creations of our own mind, are mind also reflects things in reality in our dreams. For example, I was watching this TV show dexter constantly and eventually I had a dream about it. I also used too be a drug addict and I frequently do heroin and meth in my dreams as drugs are "burnt into my mind" (not literally).

How Do Dreams Work?

The brain will 'flush out' emotional arousal by creating a dream of a scenario that parallels the real-life experience - a metaphor. So, the work colleague from above might be symbolised by a monster and your anger would be allowed expression as you attacked the dream creature.

If you ruminate angrily over the same issues the next day then you may well have a repetitive dream as the brain solves the same problem in the same way.

Dreaming is an amazing demonstration of your brain’s ability to 'simulate reality' and a clear indicator of why hypnosis works. It is fairly common for a hypnotized subject to vividly experience an imagined reality, less so than in dreaming perhaps, but absorbing nonetheless.

The rapid eye movement (REM) of dreaming is also often observed during hypnosis. And indeed, a traditional way to induce hypnosis was by swinging a watch in front of the subject’s eyes.

Since dreaming is largely concerned with ‘clearing' the brain of emotional arousal, it is not hard to see one reason why hypnosis is so good for helping people with emotional problems.

Nothing is true. Everything is permitted.

All of our perceptions create an illusion. Therefore, anytime one is actively engaged in creating their own worldview, they are creating illusion. It is a great question: Can we experience reality? And by reality I mean a true, objective reality. This would be beyond our dreams would it not? Or perhaps it would just be another dream...

Originally Posted by Chimpertainment

Nothing is true. Everything is permitted.

Gotta love assassins creed

To answer your question, I do not think that. I used to because that's what I was taught.

Originally Posted by Chimpertainment

Nothing is true. Everything is permitted.

All of our perceptions create an illusion. Therefore, anytime one is actively engaged in creating their own worldview, they are creating illusion. It is a great question: Can we experience reality? And by reality I mean a true, objective reality. This would be beyond our dreams would it not? Or perhaps it would just be another dream...

True perhaps it would be. Reality in all respects is just a much denser dream which would explain why you can't just materialize things from just thought. It's called the 'physical world' for a reason. We got to actually work for it. But our thoughts DO affect the world to a certain degree.

In scientific terms there is really no such thing as dream reality, it is just a simulation created in walking life. None the less I still think a dream experience is just as worthy becuase all our memories are created by how we percept them.

Originally Posted by dutchraptor

In scientific terms there is really no such thing as dream reality, it is just a simulation created in walking life. None the less I still think a dream experience is just as worthy becuase all our memories are created by how we percept them.

I know science has its own take in this. But when you think about it there IS a such thing as a dream reality. Reality is what is happening in the current moment. In the NOW. Right now this is our primary reality because we are awake and reading this forum right NOW! But as we are asleep we are NOT (consciously) in the physical world anymore. Our body may be asleep but are awareness is not. While sleeping our primary reality would be what we are experiencing in that current moment which would be a dream. Lucid or not a dream is still just as much of a reality of its own IMO. Maybe I am just ignoring science but I do understand science goes into this too so it's not like I am just disregarding it. I am glad you agree that the experience of a dream is legit.

I kind of understand what you are implying but in a dream one can realise that they are not in the real world, they know its a simulation. You can't say the same about real life.

OK, yeah I understand what you mean. Thanks for clarifying

I don't know...

To say that a dream is as real as waking reality because you are experiencing it "as real" seems kind of narcissistic and lacking in self-awareness to me.

Yes, the ends of our perceptions in dream and waking reality are the same, but the means of that perception are very very different. If something seems real to us in a NLD, does that really make it real? I don't think so.

Why? Because we sentient types have been blessed with a cognitive ability to be self-aware, to reasonably understand that we are a part of reality, but not reality itself. The universe, we discover by the time we're about seven, is not all about us. Dreams, being universes created by our minds exclusively for our minds (aka. all about us), are by definition and mature inspection not real. To call dreams real just because our perception is briefly confused by their projections both reduces the importance of reality, and flies in the face of our own self-awareness, I think.

Now, if WakingNomad is still listening, what I just said should not be confused with the actual reality that may find its way into our dreams, through things like dream-sharing, AP, magic or transcendence. Though there are lots of opinions on both sides of actual reality existing in our dreams (or rather accessed through our dreams), I think that is a different subject than the OP posits. So no need to object along those lines.

We are limited to defineing reality, because we are living. All we know is what we percieve. There is likely infinitely more senses availible, that we do not understand. Think of it this way: Could you describe sight to a blind person? No. How about touch to a person who cant feel. These undescribable senses are all we know in our world, so we will never have the full picture.

^^Wow i sounded smart there. Thats a first

Originally Posted by ThAtaInTmE

^^Wow i sounded smart there. Thats a first

Okay arguement time XD. Reality is the state of how the unniverse actually exists and not how we percieve it. The unniverse is our minds cinema, everything is taking in externally from that we percieve an image, however in the dream world everything is created by our expectations of our brain, the dream world is composed of manipulated pieces of the real world.

To clarify reality starts with real because it does not matter how one percieves it, it does not change. One could argue that this doesn't matter as someone who is blind percieves reality differently, but this doesn't matter because reality is still the same we just see it differently.

Dreams aren't fake, they are just an experience that has no external stimulus whereas waking life is an experience made up of external stimulus.

I respectfully disagree with you Sageous

" Dreams, being universes created by our minds exclusively for our minds (aka. all about us), are by definition and mature inspection not real."
In a physical sense yeah your right it isn't real. But just because something isn't physical does that not make it any less real than physical reality? Like I said earlier what makes it real is not because it's physical but because the experience you gain from it. Let me give you an example. A doctor uses lucid dreaming to perfect the way he makes incisions. This experience is real because not only did he learn something that he can apply in the physical world but also the muscle memory of doing the incisions remain with him. This is what I mean by 'real'.

Another example of this is our emotions. They aren't physical but you can definitely experience them so once again in that sense it is 'real'.
I do understand where you are coming from and can see why you aren't really sure about it. But hey, I can't tell you that I am right. I am just speculating just like you and everyone else. Thanks for posting your view on this.

Hey dutchraptor,

I think I got you here

" however in the dream world everything is created by our expectations of our brain,"

Everything we perceive is decoded from our brain. What we see is what the brain thinks it is. In that sense reality isn't objective but subjective because what we see is what the brain thinks it sees (or perceive in any other sense).
This is the exact same thing in our dream state EXCEPT in the dream world it is VERY fluid in the sense that what you expect actually does happen. However like a dream our thoughts actually control this world to a much lesser extent. Think of this world we are experiencing right now as a VERY dense dream and in order to 'control' it you have to go to much further extents. Not only do you have to think it you have to do it which is why this is called "Physical reality".

You make good points, Daredevilpwn, but there still might be a couple of pieces I can't agree with. Let me make noise one more time -- I hope you'll bear with me:

Originally Posted by Daredevilpwn

" Dreams, being universes created by our minds exclusively for our minds (aka. all about us), are by definition and mature inspection not real." In a physical sense yeah your right it isn't real. But just because something isn't physical does that not make it any less real than physical reality?

Yes, it does. Every time. Something may seem real in a dream, but that does not by any measure mean that it is real. There truly is a stark difference between dreaming "reality" and waking-life reality. You can absolutely believe everything in a NLD is totally real, but the moment you wake up it is gone, and seconds later you confirm to yourself that all that stuff you were sure was real was "just a dream." When you go to sleep at night, the waking world you're leaving behind does not disappear; regardless of what your own perception "sees," it is still there, with or without you. And, when you wake up in the morning, your mind quickly re-establishes its position in reality, and it fully expects what was there when your eyes closed to be there when they open. I think this difference is significant, and understanding it is critical to getting the most out of your lucid times in dreams. ... In my mind this statement reflects reality itself, but if you want to continue calling it an opinion, I'll respect that.

Like I said earlier what makes it real is not because it's physical but because the experience you gain from it. Let me give you an example. A doctor uses lucid dreaming to perfect the way he makes incisions. This experience is real because not only did he learn something that he can apply in the physical world but also the muscle memory of doing the incisions remain with him. This is what I mean by 'real'.

If you ever meet a surgeon who claims to have learned, or even successfully honed, his skills in his dreams, you are likely also meeting a liar, or a very bad surgeon.

Though this might seem a good example at first glance, I don't think so, because a surgeon cannot practice during his dream the most important thing he must master as a surgeon: dealing with the unexpected. One of the reasons surgeons' (and other similar highly skilled professionals') skills are so highly valued is that they were able to learn to perform a task that is extremely difficult to master simply because so much of it is a dive into the unknown. A surgeon cutting into your body depends more on his knowledge, confidence, and steadiness than he does on all the practice he got making incisions (though he did plenty of that as well, of course).

Basically, if they practice surgery in their dreams doctors will never be surprised, or challenged by unexpected complications. Why? Because they can only operate on DC patients who are performing exactly as expected. Also, there is no way to learn muscle memory like that in a dream, because surgery is a matter of touch, and the muscle memory learned to perfect that touch comes specifically from teaching the muscles to do a thing they never did before. If a surgeon is cutting into a DC, he is basing his entire dream incision on what he already knows, so his muscles are learning nothing new ... not to mention that muscle memory requires the use of actual muscles, so, since the surgeon's physical body is not participating in the dream, his muscles will learn nothing.

So sure, a surgeon might practice cutting in a dream, but surgery in reality is so much more -- I'd rather be under the knife of a doctor who got his experience navigating the challenges, surprises, and emergencies of waking life, I think!

Another example of this is our emotions. They aren't physical but you can definitely experience them so once again in that sense it is 'real'.

Absolutely true. But do emotions really define reality, or are they simply our reaction to whatever we're currently experiencing, be it real or not? By extension, what you're saying means that movies, video games, even books and music become concrete reality if you react to them with emotion. When you're watching a movie, do you really believe it is real simply because it is scaring you, or making you laugh or cry? I doubt it. Why are dreams different, from this perspective? I agree that emotions are a powerful thing, and are very "real" on a personal level wherever you're experiencing them. But I don't think the fact of their existence means that whatever you're responding emotionally to must be real.

I hope this made sense, Daredevilpwn, and I hope you understand that I'm not trying to be confrontational. I just wanted to be clear that physical reality is a "real" thing that exists regardless of our presence, input, or reaction to it. Dreams may seem utterly real, but they cannot exist without our presence, input, or reaction. When we wake up, they're gone, completely (even the memory of NLD's tends to fade rapidly). Reality simply does not do that. I guess I was just trying to say that you can believe something is real all you want, but if it isn't real, it isn't real. If your entire dreamscape vanishes the moment you wake up, then it was never real. BTW, you're waking up into a place that is essentially the same as you left it when you went to sleep, which is the difference I'm describing defined.

And again, all this pertains directly to my premise that dreams are an invention of our minds, and nothing more. Should actual reality find a way into our dreams, then we'd be discussing something altogether different.

Originally Posted by Daredevilpwn

Hey dutchraptor,

I think I got you here

" however in the dream world everything is created by our expectations of our brain,"

Everything we perceive is decoded from our brain. What we see is what the brain thinks it is. In that sense reality isn't objective but subjective because what we see is what the brain thinks it sees (or perceive in any other sense).
This is the exact same thing in our dream state EXCEPT in the dream world it is VERY fluid in the sense that what you expect actually does happen. However like a dream our thoughts actually control this world to a much lesser extent. Think of this world we are experiencing right now as a VERY dense dream and in order to 'control' it you have to go to much further extents. Not only do you have to think it you have to do it which is why this is called "Physical reality".

It's only morning here so this answer may seem a little messy, sorry.
Okay I'm not sure how to phrase this anymore, The actual term reality indicates what is the real world and it is not subjective in the manner that it never changes, now how people percieve it is their reality (emphasize on their). But seeing as there is no one way to look at reality this doesn't matter.
Our dreams are composed of the pieces of how we interpret reality but the limitations of our brain are still layed down by true reality. So infact when we dream we are not in a different reality at all. Off course none of this indicates that dreams are a fake experience (Like I said earlier) but more so that dreams should not be considered a reality to begin with.

Originally Posted by Sageous

Though this might seem a good example at first glance, I don't think so, because a surgeon cannot practice during his dream the most important thing he must master as a surgeon: dealing with the unexpected. One of the reasons surgeons' (and other similar highly skilled professionals') skills are so highly valued is that they were able to learn to perform a task that is extremely difficult to master simply because so much of it is a dive into the unknown. A surgeon cutting into your body depends more on his knowledge, confidence, and steadiness than he does on all the practice he got making incisions (though he did plenty of that as well, of course).

Basically, if they practice surgery in their dreams doctors will never be surprised, or challenged by unexpected complications. Why? Because they can only operate on DC patients who are performing exactly as expected. Also, there is no way to learn muscle memory like that in a dream, because surgery is a matter of touch, and the muscle memory learned to perfect that touch comes specifically from teaching the muscles to do a thing they never did before. If a surgeon is cutting into a DC, he is basing his entire dream incision on what he already knows, so his muscles are learning nothing new ... not to mention that muscle memory requires the use of actual muscles, so, since the surgeon's physical body is not participating in the dream, his muscles will learn nothing.

So sure, a surgeon might practice cutting in a dream, but surgery in reality is so much more -- I'd rather be under the knife of a doctor who got his experience navigating the challenges, surprises, and emergencies of waking life, I think!

I had a thought about this myself a while back, I'd say what is really being gained is the self confidence to operate on the patients, the fact that he experienced succes in his dreams gave him confidence to do it in real life.

Btw just want to say I agree with everything sageous said, probably what I was trying to say, I just don't have a way with words like he does.

Originally Posted by Sageous

Yes, it does. Every time. Something may seem real in a dream, but that does not by any measure mean that it is real. There truly is a stark difference between dreaming "reality" and waking-life reality. You can absolutely believe everything in a NLD is totally real, but the moment you wake up it is gone, and seconds later you confirm to yourself that all that stuff you were sure was real was "just a dream." When you go to sleep at night, the waking world you're leaving behind does not disappear; regardless of what your own perception "sees," it is still there, with or without you. And, when you wake up in the morning, your mind quickly re-establishes its position in reality, and it fully expects what was there when your eyes closed to be there when they open. I think this difference is significant, and understanding it is critical to getting the most out of your lucid times in dreams. ... In my mind this statement reflects reality itself, but if you want to continue calling it an opinion, I'll respect that.

I would disagree, but only semantically. Dreams certainly are real, but they are purely subjective and only happening inside your head. That doesn't mean that they aren't real, it just means that everything that is happening, everything you see taste touch smell feel and hear are a projection of your mind and are not created by the interaction of external stimuli and your senses.

Originally Posted by StonedApe

I would disagree, but only semantically. Dreams certainly are real, but they are purely subjective and only happening inside your head. That doesn't mean that they aren't real, it just means that everything that is happening, everything you see taste touch smell feel and hear are a projection of your mind and are not created by the interaction of external stimuli and your senses.

Except that your reply, semantically, only confirms what I said: dreams may seem real, and be filled with physical sensations (imaginary sensations, BTW) which certainly compound that sense of realism. But, as you say, "everything you see taste touch smell feel and hear are a projection of your mind and are not created by the interaction of external stimuli and your senses." That is almost a textbook description of something that is not real, isn't it?

You guys do make one important point on which I failed to touch: Dreams my not be real in themselves (though I like Dutchraptor's consideration of them as an extension or interpretation of reality itself), but they are by no means "fake." Fake, it think, is a word that implies that dreams are false, and are in no way tied to reality or your own personal truths, and therefore it is not a word that describes dreams at all. They may not be their own reality, but dreams are definitely not fake! I just needed to mention that...

Also, I just had another thought: We're all LD'ers, aren't we? Well, isn't the core of a LD that "Ah-ha!" moment when you realize that this place you are in isn't real, that it's a dream? Isn't an RC simply a state test to determine the "reality" of the moment, and if it fails, then you're dreaming? And, of course, isn't a LD truly just the application of reality -- bringing your waking-life awareness and memory into a dream -- to the unreality of a dream? Isn't that how LD'ing works, and why it is so cool? I'm not sure that thought belongs here, but I felt a need to mention it as well.


... Nice chat, guys; thanks for putting up with me!

Dreams are real, but dreams are dreams.

My point is that the word real is very vague and not well defined despite seeming so obvious and common to all.

Think about memories. Close your eyes and remember back to when you were a kid. Is that real? I would say so. It's real, but it's a memory, not... we don't really have a good word for it. Objective reality maybe.

Something doesn't have to arise due to external stimuli to be real. Let's say I think about a memory or an abstract idea or even just daydream and this causes an emotional response. Is that emotional response real?

I don't think "this isn't real" but rather that this is a dream.[when LDing]

Wow! I never thought this thread will be as popular. Enjoyed debating with you all. You guys are pretty mature about this. As or me I ran out of things to say to counter your points I would just end up saying the same things over again so I am done. Thank you guys for taking the time to share you own views on the difference between a dream and waking life. You all make very good points about this. I personally don't think there is a true definition for reality. Sure its probably in the dictionary but we all seem to have our own personal definition for it so it makes an interesting topic to debate with others about. Especially those that are LD'ers. I have been thinking about stuff like this for awhile now and now that I got to express myself I feel much better.

I know I made a post saying I am done but I just thought of one final thing. After this I am done.

Another reason why I believe a dream is a reality of its own is because of the fact it is possible to share a dream. Shared dreaming is when two beings of consciousness are able to interact with each other in the same dream scape while their physical bodies are sleeping in bed. The fact it is possible to do this leads me to believe that a dream is indeed a reality of its own and more than just something personal the brain conjures up for if a dream was just a personal world created by the brain it shouldn't really be possible to share it with another being of consciousness. Assuming dreams are just nothing more than just a world created by the brain then WHAT are the chances of two people having the EXACT same dream with each other and when they wake up they can tell what each other did and what they said. So there is more to this than meets the eye and this is why I believe a dream is a reality of its own. Alright. NOW I am done. This post isn't a reply to a specific person but just something for you all to think about.

Originally Posted by Daredevilpwn

Another reason why I believe a dream is a reality of its own is because of the fact it is possible to share a dream.

I'm pretty sure it's not a fact that it is possible to share a dream. I don't think that there's any hard evidence to support this claim; coincidental similarities in dreams are not a form of hard evidence. Granted, I'm not read at all on the subject.