Thread: Is dreaming a product of the brain or are we in in an alternate reality?

Originally Posted by Daredevilpwn

Another reason why I believe dreams are a alternate reality is because of the so many instances of people sharing dreams.

What makes you think there are many instances of people sharing dreams? I don't see any evidence of that.

http://www.dreamviews.com/f19/shared...debate-120211/

http://www.dreamviews.com/f19/passwo...riment-134237/

Surely, if shared dreaming exists, then it is possible that some types of dreams might be an alternate form of reality. But until shared dreaming is in any way documented in a controlled study, your theories won't be taken seriously.

Thanks for the links. Personally I don't care if people don't take me seriously. I just want to get people to think about the nature of reality and consider the big possibility that dreams are not limited to just being a brain thing. Now what do YOU think dreams are?

I am not going to deny the fact that shared dreaming exists, because the brain is so complex and advanced, and we have yet to scratch the surface of it's capabilities. Also, lucid dreaming was highly debated in the past, but now it is proven, so theres no reason why shared dreaming should be marked as untrue. It is such a hard concept to prove since its inside your own mind and only you can experience it...so until we have some sort of devise that lets us view other people's dreams, than shared dreaming can never be proven. I am trying to keep an open mind about shared dreaming while staying somewhat skeptical. I don't let anyone tell me shared dreaming is or isn't real because they know just as much as i do about the topic

Originally Posted by Daredevilpwn

Thanks for the links. Personally I don't care if people don't take me seriously. I just want to get people to think about the nature of reality and consider the big possibility that dreams are not limited to just being a brain thing.

That's all swell, but when you talk about shared dreaming being a fact (as you did in the other thread), then most of what you say after that statement cannot be taken seriously.

Now what do YOU think dreams are?

I believe there is more than one type of dream. Nonetheless, I firmly believe that 95% of dreams are the product of your mind. A mish-mash of our subconscious, conscious, wishes, worries, problems, goals, and day-residue.

Most of my dreams form in a very interesting manner: http://www.dreamviews.com/f45/how-my...s-form-114411/

It's always good to be a somewhat skeptical. Whatever your theory is. It would have the same chance to be just as right as mine or everyone elses.

Originally Posted by jblb2424

I am not going to deny the fact that shared dreaming exists, because the brain is so complex and advanced, and we have yet to scratch the surface of it's capabilities. Also, lucid dreaming was highly debated in the past, but now it is proven, so theres no reason why shared dreaming should be marked as untrue. It is such a hard concept to prove since its inside your own mind and only you can experience it...so until we have some sort of devise that lets us view other people's dreams, than shared dreaming can never be proven. I am trying to keep an open mind about shared dreaming while staying somewhat skeptical. I don't let anyone tell me shared dreaming is or isn't real because they know just as much as i do about the topic

This shows that you haven't read this: http://www.dreamviews.com/f19/shared...debate-120211/

Because if you'd read it, then you wouldn't use the lame excuses that shared dreaming can't be proven in a study. Of course it can be proven, by two experienced shared dreamers transfering a password through a dream in a controlled setting. Now I am not going to get into this for the millionth time.

So far there hasn't been any evidence for shared dreaming aside from claims on internet forums.

Deal with it.

Originally Posted by Gills

That's all swell, but when you talk about shared dreaming being a fact (as you did in the other thread), then most of what you say after that statement cannot be taken seriously.

Sorry for the misunderstanding you see I didn't want it to make it come across of me saying shared dreaming is a fact. My purpose for talking about shared dreaming is to give an example IF shared dreaming truly existed. I never meant to make it seem like I said shared dreaming IS real without it even being proven yet. Sorry about that. But other than that what do you think about my theory? I think I made pretty good points. I'll edit that shared dreaming bit.

Originally Posted by Gills

This shows that you haven't read this: http://www.dreamviews.com/f19/shared...debate-120211/

Because if you'd read it, then you wouldn't use the lame excuses that shared dreaming can't be proven in a study. Of course it can be proven, by two experienced shared dreamers transfering a password through a dream in a controlled setting. Now I am not going to get into this for the millionth time.

So far there hasn't been any evidence for shared dreaming aside from claims on internet forums.

Deal with it.

I was not putting shared dreaming down or denying its existence...actually quite the opposite. I believe shared dreaming exists more than i think it doesn't. I think you got the wrong message from my post. And i wasn't making any lame exuses to deny the fact that shared dreaming exists. I was simply explaining how it can be rather difficult to prove its existence because its all in your head and shared dreaming is for the most part spontanious. But i will check out the links you gave me. I hope you don't hate me

Nah. I doubt he hates you. It was just a misunderstanding thats all.

Well, just another theory about it. We can't be 100% sure what dreaming REALLY is, but we can make educated guesses. I think I'll stick to believing your theory since it sounds awesome. Although, how do you explain early REM?

Thats a pretty interisting way of looking at dreaming, and personaly i look at dreaming in sumwhat the same regard. Im not sure if you know this already, but several relegions(budha, Hindu,ext...) Beleive in the 7 planes of existance, and basically each plane is made of a higher frequince of vibrational energy then the one that came before it. Take a look if you want.

Sorry but im always on this forum with my phone and it takes forever to try and provide lins so im not going to bother.

Provide "links"

Originally Posted by Xcuz

Well, just another theory about it. We can't be 100% sure what dreaming REALLY is, but we can make educated guesses. I think I'll stick to believing your theory since it sounds awesome. Although, how do you explain early REM?

Early REM? If you mean experiencing dream like sensations such as feeling or hearing things that aren't there or as soon as you go to bed. Well. Assuming my theory is true then I guess the person with the early rem problem could be experiencing bi-location. Being in two places at once. Part of his consciousness is tuned into the dream world and the other is still awake in the physical body. Perhaps that is what happens to one with early REM but I am no doctor and can't say what causes it.

I think that your theory - while a fun thought - has no evidence to support it.

I think that dreams are experiences taking place in a virtual reality fueled by sensory data that doesn't have to find its basis in external stimuli. It's a subjective experience, and I don't know why we do it.

Originally Posted by Gills

This shows that you haven't read this: http://www.dreamviews.com/f19/shared...debate-120211/

Because if you'd read it, then you wouldn't use the lame excuses that shared dreaming can't be proven in a study. Of course it can be proven, by two experienced shared dreamers transfering a password through a dream in a controlled setting. Now I am not going to get into this for the millionth time.

So far there hasn't been any evidence for shared dreaming aside from claims on internet forums.

Deal with it.

Will you just leave already, you have added absolutely no contribution to the discussion. Firstly like jblb2424 has already put it in an excellent manner, either you believe in it or you don't, there is no direct evidence to prove or disprove its existence so no need to clutter up threads about it. Secondly this is the beyond dreaming section, 90% of the time theories here are not based on hard science. Thirdly Daredevilpwn has been extremely kind and patient with you and you just keep rambling on, he even stated this at the begining

Before I start I want to say that what I am saying is just a possibility I am not claiming it is fact

.

Just because you don't believe does not mean you have to be disrespectful. I personally don't know if shared dreaming is real or not but that doesn't mean I can't put my mind into a state where I assume it would be possible so I can help discuss with other members and not just create rows.

Originally Posted by dutchraptor

she even stated this at the begining

Thanks for sticking up for me but I am a dude lol.

Originally Posted by Daredevilpwn

Thanks for sticking up for me but I am a dude lol.

Oops sorry dude, morning typo no offense meant.

Originally Posted by jblb2424

I was not putting shared dreaming down or denying its existence...actually quite the opposite. I believe shared dreaming exists more than i think it doesn't. I think you got the wrong message from my post. And i wasn't making any lame exuses to deny the fact that shared dreaming exists. I was simply explaining how it can be rather difficult to prove its existence because its all in your head and shared dreaming is for the most part spontanious. But i will check out the links you gave me. I hope you don't hate me

I think you've got it backwards. It sounds as if Gills does not believe in shared dreaming, and telling you that as far as anyone is concerned at the moment, it isn't possible.

Originally Posted by dutchraptor

Will you just leave already, you have added absolutely no contribution to the discussion.

Why be disrespectful?

Originally Posted by Gills

Why be disrespectful?

I'm guessing you didn't get past the the first sentence, I'm being disrespectful because so are you and I'm not gonna stand and watch how you bash in people's theories with non-relevant links to threads and saying that their theories won't be taken seriously. Anyways this discussion is over, if you have anything worthyfull to add to the thread I'd like to hear it and I will take you seriously.

Actually, everything that Gills posted was relevant. He was directed here from a different thread, in which the topic of shared dreaming was already being discussed. His link was to a thread on this forum that explored the idea of shared dreaming, which is one of the two basis for Daredevilpwns theory of what a dream is. He also presented a link to a method that could be used to prove shared dreaming had an actual scientific basis.

You said:

Firstly like jblb2424 has already put it in an excellent manner, either you believe in it or you don't, there is no direct evidence to prove or disprove its existence so no need to clutter up threads about it.

But I'm pretty sure that is exactly what Daredevilpwn asked for, isn't it:

Please post what you guys think about this and please post what YOU think dreams are.

So, Gill was telling him what he thought about his ideas. He also went on to post what he thought dreams were, per request.

You also said:

I personally don't know if shared dreaming is real or not but that doesn't mean I can't put my mind into a state where I assume it would be possible so I can help discuss with other members and not just create rows.

Daredevilpwn didn't ask him for a willful suspension of disbelief. He asked him for his thoughts on the matter.


And finally:

Secondly this is the beyond dreaming section, 90% of the time theories here are not based on hard science.

The description of the Beyond Dreaming subforum reads: "A place for the discussion of Out of Body Experiences (OBEs), Astral Projections (APs), Dream Sharing, Precognitive Dreams, and other dream related phenomena." So yes, while they may not be based on hard science, I don't seem to read anything about not attempting to approach the concepts from a scientific standpoint. Actually, I would hope that one of the goals of this subforum is to shed some light on these topics from a scientific vantage point. So why attack him for doing just that? If the intention of your thread is to have people approach the concept with certain assumptions being made beforehand, then that should be stated explicitly. Don't be upset when people give honest answers.


That being said, some of Gills posts had a bite to them. But so did some of yours.

I checked the posts you gave me gills, it looked like a bunch of rabling whether people believe in shared dreaming or not, kinda like this thread. It didn't prove much of anything to me sorry . I think when it comes to a topic like shared dreaming its best to keep an open mind while remaining skeptical, because you never know until its actually proven, and people won't argue as much xD

Hey guys. I asked in my OP to post what you think about my ideas and what you think dreams are. I considered that some people may come off as being rude and all but DON'T let it get to you. Arguing over the internet is just a waste of energy. Lets just have a nice respectful discussion on what we think dreams are. Whether using science or other reasons as to why you think this way.

Well then, how's about stepping away from the shared-dreaming BS ans going back to the meat of the OP for a flash? Let me start:

Originally Posted by Daredevilpwn

Do you think dreams are just a creation of our brains or are we really entering a different reality?

I think dreams are definitely a creation of our brains, and when dreaming we are certainly not entering a different reality we may be expanding our perception or experience of reality, yes, but we're not entering a different one. That is of course just an opinion, because who really knows? But:

Does the condition of dreaming offer us an opportunity to tap additional, richer, veins of reality than those we experience in waking life? Perhaps. Do dreams, especially Ld's, offer us the ability to merge our perception of reality with other dreamers, so that we can perceive reality in a manner outside our personal abilities or experience? Maybe. The nature and potentials of dreams, I think, are expansive enough that we can learn things about reality itself, including how others might see it, without the world of dreams being a separate reality unto itself.

I hope that made sense, because I think it is extremely important, and addresses the equally important statement you are actually making in your OP, Daredevilpwn: the miracle of the dreaming experience, especially as compounded by LD'ing, need not be an entity unto itself, but might simply be our heightened ability to experience reality from truly novel perspectives.

I will give you what I think is going on when we sleep. I believe that when we are dreaming our consciousness is entering a new world all to together I don't believe it is created by the brain.

Why do you think this? I agree that everything is energy (tough the universe my not be quite as empty as you think, which I'll get to in a second), but does this really explain the transfer of our consciousness every night to a completely different reality? I don't think so.

Before I start I want to say that what I am saying is just a possibility I am not claiming it is fact. Alright lets start. First you must understand that EVERYTHING is energy. Matter is just condensed energy. The world is 99.9% empty space. So the question is why do things appear solid? Well it is because energy has a specific frequency a "vibration" if you will. Our bodies and the physical world vibrate at the same level. This is why things appear solid to the physical body. Let me give you a quick example. Ice vibrates slower than water. Since they are not vibrating at the same level water and ice don't appear to be solid to each other. They are out of sync with each other but the vibration of the water isn't high enough that it isn't a part of physical reality anymore. Now then as for dreaming. When doing a WILD or DEILD most people feel the vibrations. The truth is our bodies are vibrating right now but we don't feel it we are too used to it. But during a WILD/DEILD we do feel them. Think of the vibrations as a radio channel. Change the vibration you change the channel. We are beings of consciousness and have the ability to change our vibrations.

For the sake of credibility, you might want to ease up on the vibration stuff. Yes, the theosophists, and mystic Hindus and Buddhists etc take great pleasure in the "vibrations" mentioned in modern attempts to explain reality like string theory. Trouble is, the vibrations the physicists talk about have nothing whatsoever to do with the vibrations the priests talk about and, ultimately, the vibrations you feel during WILD or DEILD have nothing whatsoever to do with either -- they're just your witnessing of physical sensations that you (and every other living human) experience every night when falling asleep, except that the presence of your waking awareness during WILD gives you a chance to witness them ... and speculate about them. Oh, and for what it's worth: with background radiation, Higgs fields, dark matter, and what have you, theoretical physicists seem to be determining on a daily basis that the universe is not mostly empty (which is a good thing for the spiritual types, because it allows an explanation for how information is transferred in phenomena like telepathy or dream-sharing).

Speaking of vibrations:

When we feel these vibrations we are literally tuning into a different reality. In this case the dream world. The dream world its self has its own vibration and it is most likely vibrating MUCH higher than the physical world. The reason I think it is higher in vibration is because you can change it with just a thought. Reality in a dream is more fluid where in the physical world it is a lot denser.

I've been doing this dreaming thing for a very, very long time, and, though I've experienced some truly mindbending stuff, have learned to work the fluidity of dreams to great effect, and have encountered truly transcendental places/conditions, I have never experienced anything remotely resembling this vibration effect about which you speak. Couldn't "reality" in a dream be more fluid simply because in terms of the dreamscape itself it is all of your creation, and thus potentially under your complete control, thanks to the non-dualist perspective you hold in a LD? Isn't that simpler than your vibration theory anyway? Am I missing something?

Enough of vibrations ( and intentionally avoiding event turning the knob of the shared-dreaming door):

So to sum of my reasons for believing why dreams are an alternate non-physical reality is this.

#1 You feel a non-physical vibrational change if not a vibrational change you feel some sort of phase change when entering the dream state with no lapse in consciousness. Remember everything is energy and everything has a vibration to it. The dream world is non physical and is of higher vibration.

The simplest explanation of this is that you are experiencing bodily functions (blood flow, muscle spasms, etc) that you would not have noticed had you been conscious. Isn't this a possibility as well? If not, then why not?

#2 Impossible for a brain to come up with the exact same dream scenario for two different people. Even if they tried to induce a shared dream if dreams were just brain simulations then at the most these two people dream about each other but they will not have the SAME dream. Unless of course the dream world is an alternate plane of reality that we all tap into when we sleep...

Okay. But when exactly are two people actually experiencing identical dreams? Even in the grandest of shared-dreaming anecdotes, the dreams are usually quite different. All archetypes aside, everything is always different. So when does the tapping begin?

I hope some of this makes sense, Daredevilpwn, and I also hope that you are careful to take nothing I say personally; as with your other thread, you are onto something fundmental here, and I'd love to see it discussed at length, with all ideas falling to the pot (and not just another "because I said so!" shared-dreaming mess). With that in mind, I figured it best to just put it all out there!

Belated thanks for starting the thread!