Thread: LDs and psychedelics

Also, if you look at psychedelics, you have to look at them as a shortcut to an awakening or higher state of consciousness that can be achieved through deep meditation or OBEs. And therefore the person that is taking the drugs to induce an awakening, is taking a shortcut. And because of that he doesn't have the experience that is is received from the journey to aid with the understanding of the awakening. So if the person who took the shortcut is not prepared for what is about to come then he can suffer greatly for he will not be able to comprehend the visions, he will have no direction, and they will appear as non-sensical delusions. But the man who has prepared himself, and has an intent for what he wants to achieve out of trip, will get much out of it, just as the man who did deep meditation and meditated on his intent long before he achieved the awakening.

That is a readonable take on things. Please bear in mind that no one is allowed to promote illegal drug use or teach how to use them on this forum. Discussion is fine, but no encouragement should be given.

In that light I want to say that in some settings, some feel as if awareness can be gained by such a short cut, but the drugs are illegal and can be dangerous.

From a Lucid Dreamer who has been the typical highschool druggy (Still only half way through highschool), I would say psychadelics definetly make you experience another reality. Makes you lucid to life on a different perspective. I haven't touched those types of drugs in about a year. But i can tell you I've been to hell and back while on them. In contrast I've also touched the clouds of heaven, soaring through pure ecstacy and seeing things move, warp, and change. With that said, i accomplished my mission. And that was to experience a bad trip and good trip. After all of it, I can say it HELPS you become lucid to life. These trips give you proof that theres more to life than meets the eye. You don't need this proof. But it helps tremendously IF you know how to take it all in. You must lose fear. Check out my thread called Fear! It will hopefully answer your real question. You gotta embrace the evil, dark, vagueness of life. The same way you need to embrace the magical love and excitement of it all. My bad trip was literally hell, I had no idea where i was, who i was, who my family and friends were, complete void.... No grip on reality and i wasn't expecting it. But when you leave this body after death, that no grip on reality will be living hell if you make it that way. Or you can build a world filled of pure joy, adventure, and peace. You gotta embrace the unknown. I'm never using drugs like that again because it gave me all the proof I needed. And you can, without a doubt, find that proof within. Your INFINITE, your soul can't die. And that's real. "Fuck the world, Dare to Dream"
Peace!

I think our minds can reach the same status by themself, by meditation and lucid dreams. Of course, it won't be the same experience of acid, but the result is the same, and without risks.
I've often read about people which, because of a trip, understand that exisestence is something incredible, life is valuable and useless at the same time and so on...really, aren't you able to think about those things on your own?

You are! Everything people realize on drugs can be realized through any one of many self-awareness enhancing paths.

You all should check out the book 'The Teachings of Don Juan: The Yaqui Way of Knowledge' by Carlos Castenada. It is about the teachings of a native american shaman, who uses peyote (mescaline), datura, and psilocybin mushrooms in order to attain knowledge and understanding of the world around him. It has a really purposeful depiction of hallucinogen plants and their spiritual properties. It is also cool because the Yaqui people have been using these plants for centuries, as they were regional plants, and their spirituality has evolved around the plants. In the book Don Juan describes being able to induce a mushroom trip at will after mastering the plant. If anything, it is a col view point on these plants. And the book in new way encourages use of the plants, it simply describes the Yaqui belief of 'a man of knowledge' and how the plants can be used to attain that.

Also, here is an interesting video by Alex Gray, visionary painter who talks about his first experience with the spirit molecule, DMT, which as you may probably know, is a potent psychedelic found in nature, and also in the human brain, specifically used for dreaming.

Alex Grey: My 1st DMT experience was very memorable - YouTube

About DMT i'm really amazed, i try to get lots information about it few months ago, but it's a bit unkonown how it works (more than others hallucinogens). Actually we haven't found health problems caused by this triptamine, but, theoretically, it could drive to psychosis, with high and frequent doses, as any psychadelic. It's interesting that we produce it not only during dreams, but also when we born and when we die (for 24 hours).
In the end, it's the same: i have no doubt these substances can improve your awareness and the way you ralate with reality in a better way, but i'm saying that they are not the only way. Maybe the fastest, but not the safest.

Let me share with you ONE of my experiences on my first time trying shrooms and this isn't even the worst one:

I was starting to become severely depressed, I felt like the mood around me just died, everything started to slowly turn dark purple/black with demonic voices cackling in the background. I couldn't take it any more, I had to throw up from my anxiety, I ran to the bathroom and didn't even have enough time to aim at the toilet, I ended up throwing up in my sink. I must have thrown up 6 or 7 times back to back, the experience felt like I was throwing up all of my organs, I could even see my organs lying in the sink. After I finished I wiped my mouth and stepped out of my bathroom with both my friends asking if I was 'ok', at this point everything turned black, and I was viewing my self in third person standing in blackness with my body torn up and bleeding, I distinctly remember how a piece of my skull was missing and by brain was visible bleeding down my face.

Now this was on shrooms with a regular dose, I couldn't even begin to fucking imagine what a bad trip on DMT would be like.

This is the main reason to stay away from these kind of drugs, while I know you can mitigate the chance of a bad trip happening by having a proper setting and babysitter that will ensure your safety, it still doesn't mean your trip will be good.

Be prepared to have a similar experience or possibly worse when taking psychedelics. I also want to mention operating devices while tripping is impossible, so GL calling an ambulance if something happens.

A friend of mine who had a terrible bad trip on acid that lasted for days said it like this, "It's like gambling with your sanity. Like betting a million dollars. You can have an amazing trip, or you can completely lose your mind and never come back." (Not exact quote but close)

I've had several experiences with mushroom and salvia. I've smoked weed everyday for months at a time. It can produce perhaps less aware and more aware states. It maybe isn't best to describe the experiences in aware or more aware. Maybe just altered is better. Not all drugs are the same obviously, and aren't going to affect everyone exactly the same. I took mushrooms once and closed my eyes and went to another world. One of the last times I did it had kind of had a bad trip and thought I was going to die. At first everything seemed very vivid then mild hallucinations then things became blurr and I lost control of thoughts but not really thoughts? In the trip I felt super bad and was completely losing my mind at one point while lying in the pitch black dark trying to sleep filled with thoughts of regret and guilt and ways I could have made things better. But then I was with a girl whom was my friend for years and being with her made me feel so comfortable and amazing. But I don't really know. You don't know what it's like until you try it. But it's not something to be taken lightly, psychedelics should always be taken at low doses the first time you try and should be treated with the right attitude in respect to what it does. One should go into it with respect and a suitable environment and situation. People who talk alot about drugs and have never even tried them don't really know what they are talking about. I don't know what else to say, maybe it's not the greatest advice....

Also another thing too add. Most the times I've smoked salvia, it made me very disassociated. Like the last time I did it. I took one big hit from a pipe and held it in. Was standing atop this big hill over looking much city and stuff. It went straight to my head and I lost awareness of my senses and forgot who I was. Then I was there in my body but looking out things weren't familiar too me. I was a speck of star dust on a giant dust ball rock which was our planet. I felt so small. The world below me looked ugly and fucked up and unnatural. But lacking a sense of identities and worry about past or present obligations and what not. I was just a speck of dust. A bit of dust melded into this thing called an organic life forms that was really nothing more than a tiny vehicle to get me around this giant rock. Human logic seemed stupid too me. My thoughts were all humans want to do it eat and fuck, yet they ignore all these other giant problems happening all around them because all they want to do it eat and fuck! And the sense of freedom was obvious. Like whatever you do it's just a choice. Not a hard wired choice. Not some single road with walls at the edges. But rather a smooth and fluid choice like the light feeling of a bird flying through the air choosing where to go. Free without worry. Those are rather manifestations of ego, which at the time were pretty fucked over and not existing. Over all I'd say salvia had a dark feeling though, mushrooms had a sort of cartoony feeling, gave me a sense of understanding how animals always felt, perhaps some what mad, yet free.

Originally Posted by saltyseedog

A friend of mine who had a terrible bad trip on acid that lasted for days said it like this, "It's like gambling with your sanity. Like betting a million dollars. You can have an amazing trip, or you can completely lose your mind and never come back." (Not exact quote but close)

I've had several experiences with mushroom and salvia. I've smoked weed everyday for months at a time. It can produce perhaps less aware and more aware states. It maybe isn't best to describe the experiences in aware or more aware. Maybe just altered is better. Not all drugs are the same obviously, and aren't going to affect everyone exactly the same. I took mushrooms once and closed my eyes and went to another world. One of the last times I did it had kind of had a bad trip and thought I was going to die. At first everything seemed very vivid then mild hallucinations then things became blurr and I lost control of thoughts but not really thoughts? In the trip I felt super bad and was completely losing my mind at one point while lying in the pitch black dark trying to sleep filled with thoughts of regret and guilt and ways I could have made things better. But then I was with a girl whom was my friend for years and being with her made me feel so comfortable and amazing. But I don't really know. You don't know what it's like until you try it. But it's not something to be taken lightly, psychedelics should always be taken at low doses the first time you try and should be treated with the right attitude in respect to what it does. One should go into it with respect and a suitable environment and situation. People who talk alot about drugs and have never even tried them don't really know what they are talking about. I don't know what else to say, maybe it's not the greatest advice....

Also another thing too add. Most the times I've smoked salvia, it made me very disassociated. Like the last time I did it. I took one big hit from a pipe and held it in. Was standing atop this big hill over looking much city and stuff. It went straight to my head and I lost awareness of my senses and forgot who I was. Then I was there in my body but looking out things weren't familiar too me. I was a speck of star dust on a giant dust ball rock which was our planet. I felt so small. The world below me looked ugly and fucked up and unnatural. But lacking a sense of identities and worry about past or present obligations and what not. I was just a speck of dust. A bit of dust melded into this thing called an organic life forms that was really nothing more than a tiny vehicle to get me around this giant rock. Human logic seemed stupid too me. My thoughts were all humans want to do it eat and fuck, yet they ignore all these other giant problems happening all around them because all they want to do it eat and fuck! And the sense of freedom was obvious. Like whatever you do it's just a choice. Not a hard wired choice. Not some single road with walls at the edges. But rather a smooth and fluid choice like the light feeling of a bird flying through the air choosing where to go. Free without worry. Those are rather manifestations of ego, which at the time were pretty fucked over and not existing. Over all I'd say salvia had a dark feeling though, mushrooms had a sort of cartoony feeling, gave me a sense of understanding how animals always felt, perhaps some what mad, yet free.

I admit, i've never takes these substances, except weed some times (that i won't take again, because i think isn't such great as many people say), so i can't know exactly what it means, but let me do an analyisis: what you get through theirs assumption is hours of a very emotional and deep effects and, in the end, also meaningful understanding. The first part can simply be classificated as "fun" (and not always...), but with its risks, so i think it isn't such precious, and the second can be reached in other ways. So why take these drugs?

DMT is not a recreational drug (and you could say the same about most other strong hallucinogens). I've read plenty about DMT and ayahuasca, and have never experienced it. A key message I heard from folks who have partaken is again:

"set and setting"

That doesn't mean your physical surroundings (though it's a part). It mostly means your mental and emotional state. Where are you at emotionally and intelligently? Don't screw around with consciousness-altering substances if you're not fully prepared for what might come. Even then, think twice because it may not be the means to achieve the end you're seeking.

Interested in what one of Stephen LaBerge's colleagues has to say about ayahuasca and DMT? In part 9 of 12 in this Coast to Coast interview, Dominick Attisani describes how DMT compares to lucid dreaming. He's played with ayahuasca around 40 times.

Lucid Dreaming: Dr. Stephen La Berge (9/12) - YouTube

He was trying to determine how closely the ayahuasca experience matched the lucid dreaming experience. His metaphor is that lucid dreaming is one of some control, floating gently down a lightly moving creek, whereas ayahuasca is one of zero-control, being pulled down a raging river in a white-water raft and hanging on for your life.

Yes, maybe "fun" wasn't the best word. And of course, i've never said that ld and DMT trip are the same thing. Maybe ayahuasca isn't dangerous, it's all not so sure actually...
but, let me make again the same question: if the result (=the thoughts you get) of DMT trip is the same of what you could get by activity such as meditation, why should a choose the first?

Last thing i want to say is that i've been really attracted by those drugs time ago, maybe still a bit actually, but i want try them because of the reason i've explained. However, i'm not trying to demonize these substances, they have their aim, but i think there are better ways to get the same result (the one after the trip).

Originally Posted by BossMan

I was starting to become severely depressed, I felt like the mood around me just died, everything started to slowly turn dark purple/black with demonic voices cackling in the background. I couldn't take it any more, I had to throw up from my anxiety, I ran to the bathroom and didn't even have enough time to aim at the toilet, I ended up throwing up in my sink. I must have thrown up 6 or 7 times back to back, the experience felt like I was throwing up all of my organs, I could even see my organs lying in the sink. After I finished I wiped my mouth and stepped out of my bathroom with both my friends asking if I was 'ok', at this point everything turned black, and I was viewing my self in third person standing in blackness with my body torn up and bleeding, I distinctly remember how a piece of my skull was missing and by brain was visible bleeding down my face.

This sounds more like something that could happen on a dissociative (ketamine or DXM) or maybe diliriants (diphenhydramine or datura) than shrooms. I'm not saying it didn't happen, I've just never heard of anything like that on shrooms.

This is the main reason to stay away from these kind of drugs, while I know you can mitigate the chance of a bad trip happening by having a proper setting and babysitter that will ensure your safety, it still doesn't mean your trip will be good.

Car accidents happen, should no one drive a car? Maybe your experience was a nightmare, but a trip that bad is rare with the right dose in the right set and setting.

Originally Posted by Woodstock

Car accidents happen, should no one drive a car? Maybe your experience was a nightmare, but a trip that bad is rare with the right dose in the right set and setting.

Interesting comparison. Yes, logically no one should drive a car -- they are vastly more dangerous than drugs by every physical, statistical, and potentiality measure. We only drive them because we've chosen as a society to do so (believe it or not, that choice actually took several decades), and then expanded our society around them so now we can't do without them. Drugs were beginning to follow that path in the '60's and society chose the opposite: that we should not build our society around them... that attitude might be changing a bit as we all seem to be become more and more dependent on prescription drugs, making innate the the concept of chemical augmentation.

Who knows? As technology and medicine continue to develop, it might become illegal to personally drive a car (it'll drive itself), and it might be not only legal but expected to use psychedelics, or some similar mind-altering/consciousness-raising chemical. There'll be classes, even schools for their use. I can't wait to see the late-night commercials!

It's not as strange as it sounds...

Originally Posted by Sageous

Who knows? As technology and medicine continue to develop, it might become illegal to personally drive a car (it'll drive itself), and it might be not only legal but expected to use psychedelics, or some similar mind-altering/consciousness-raising chemical. There'll be classes, even schools for their use. I can't wait to see the late-night commercials!

Can you imagine what kind of art, music, and movies would be made if everyone used psychedelics? I don't think pop and rap would exist then, at least not like it is now.

Originally Posted by Woodstock

Can you imagine what kind of art, music, and movies would be made if everyone used psychedelics? I don't think pop and rap would exist then, at least not like it is now.

pop and rap could disappear also if people take a break from their nonsense modern life and think: hey, commercial music? pollution? hipocrisy? what the fuck are we making? And so life would turn better. Psychadelics could do the same, and for such a great purpose i'm full in favor. But never it will be that everyone get a trip...as never it will be that everyone try to seriously think about his condition.
So, my conclusion is that if the only way you have to improve yourself is through drugs, do it, I totally respect your choices. However this doesn't mean that people which don't take acids don't have improve themselfves in other ways, and that maybe hallucinogens could hurt them! All is subjective.

I hope I explained myself well.

Originally Posted by Haeretic

pop and rap could disappear also if people take a break from their nonsense modern life and think: hey, commercial music? pollution? hipocrisy? what the fuck are we making? And so life would turn better. Psychadelics could do the same, and for such a great purpose i'm full in favor. But never it will be that everyone get a trip...as never it will be that everyone try to seriously think about his condition.
So, my conclusion is that if the only way you have to improve yourself is through drugs, do it, I totally respect your choices. However this doesn't mean that people which don't take acids don't have improve themselfves in other ways, and that maybe hallucinogens could hurt them! All is subjective.

I agree, and I don't think everyone should use psychedelics. I just thought that if there were a lot of people using them we might get more interesting and creative music and art like what happened in the late '60s. I don't think it would be good if everyone used them regularly, but if a lot of people used them occasionally they could help in some ways. Obviously the world wouldn't suddenly be perfect just because more people used psychedelics. It would all depend on who was using them and for what reasons. If half of the country abused them and just wanted to get messed up, like people do with alcohol, it would probably make everything worse.

And I think meditation is just as useful as psychedelics. I use meditation for other things like relaxing and lucid dreaming, not just for spiritual experiences and stuff like that. There are some things that they both do well and other things than only one of them can do. They can both be useful in different situations for different things.

Originally Posted by sivason

You are! Everything people realize on drugs can be realized through any one of many self-awareness enhancing paths.

Yes, but not on command. There are certain types of thoughts and realizations that do require a shock to the system. You can get your shock from DMT or a near-death experience or leaving the country to live in Tibet, whatever. But there are some things that can't be done gradually.

^^Perhaps, by the same token, some things should not be done suddenly, or forcefully? They don't call them shocks for nothing.

I think that the substantial time required to properly enhance your self-awareness are the real mechanism for raising your consciousness in a permanent and helpful way. These changes can be significant; to have them thrust upon you chemically, suddenly, might not be very helpful or permanent, on a spiritual or psychic level. The discipline behind meditation, or successful high-end LD'ing for that matter, can go a long way to prepare you for, or eliminate the need for, any "shocks."

Something to think about, maybe; sometimes "gradually" may be a better choice than "on command," especially in matters of mind, self, and spirit. Those thoughts that accompany shocks or other trauma might be too fleeting to be worth the effort, or risk...

Originally Posted by cmind

Yes, but not on command. There are certain types of thoughts and realizations that do require a shock to the system. You can get your shock from DMT or a near-death experience or leaving the country to live in Tibet, whatever. But there are some things that can't be done gradually.

They can be like a splash of cold water in the face of someone raised with rigid beliefs, but the amountof people who I saw have 'realizations' was less than 5% of the crowd.

Did you all know that mushrooms can be normal mushrooms laced with designer drugs? Not making that up.

Here is a challenge for anyone willing to step up and take it.

I did some of this stuff in the 80's. I have plenty of experience related to seeking understanding and using these substances to try and find it. In the end it was yoga (mental/meditation styles) that gave me the awareness I was looking for. Here is the challenge:

Please attempt to put into words any 'realizations' or 'expanded conciousness' you feel has been shown to you by using a drug. I am sorry to assume that almost all of them will go into the common realization category. I am sure things like 'the universe is big' or ' I am influenced by my ego, which is a seperate thing than me' are the normal things people would say. Kind of mundane in the end, really, don't you think? Please step up if you can add a 'realization' you had on these drugs.

^ Just because the realization was obvious after the fact doesn't mean the person would have gotten there on their own. For example, a psychedelic experience made me quit taking the antidepressants I was on at the time. It saved me from a life of misery and drug addiction. Ask anyone who's been on SSRIs: withdrawal is horrible depression, and it lasts months to years. 99% of people who try to get off on their own, fail after a few weeks and go back on. It's that bad. My trip gave me the clarity of thought to be able to push through the withdrawal, and now I'm happier and stronger than I've ever been.

Yeah, I agree, I mean you can't teach someone anything, you can only show them something but the realization in the end must come from within. I don't believe psychedelics allow you to see anything beyond what you are capability of seeing - such as a person who is intelligent, thoughtful,and open-minded well have, as a result, intelligent, thoughtful, and open minded realizations from psychedelics, just as the person who isn't will not. And about the realizations idea, I think that the realizations are more spiritually grounded to the point that the verbal explanation of the realization isn't the driving force for the change caused by the realization. Any realization/revelation is first felt internally on an intuitive level then later the logic side of the brain attempts to create a verbal explanation for it. Also, most of the time people are unable to fully explain there realizations through verbal explanations, but regardless that shouldn't matter as the realization is a product of the individual and his experience in life, and therefore it will only truly benefit that of the individual who experienced it. Imagine a person who had a revelation/realization via a psychedelic or deep meditation but the person couldn't speak a language; do you think that would impact the benefits or transformation the person would get out of it? The verbal explanation of the realization is utterly useless for anything other than on a social or communal values, the true value is what the individual has learned from the experience, and how that helps him with his or her journey through life. The end justifies the means? Maybe.
That is just my take on it.