Thread: LDs and psychedelics

Originally Posted by sivason

Here is a challenge for anyone willing to step up and take it.

Please attempt to put into words any 'realizations' or 'expanded conciousness' you feel has been shown to you by using a drug. I am sorry to assume that almost all of them will go into the common realization category. I am sure things like 'the universe is big' or ' I am influenced by my ego, which is a seperate thing than me' are the normal things people would say. Kind of mundane in the end, really, don't you think? Please step up if you can add a 'realization' you had on these drugs.

Please attempt to put into words any 'realizations' or 'expanded conciousness' you feel has been shown to you by meditating.

I honestly don't think any of this can be explained in words without sounding like a "common realization".

Originally Posted by Sageous

So, no takers then, just excuses? And yes guys, saying "You had to be there," and "words won't do the experience justice," are simply dodges -- weak ones at that, as is taking umbrage at the mere suggestion that there may be no "there" there in psychedelic experiences. It's like when parents tell me when I challenge their parenting gaffs that I can never understand even the most basic concepts in child rearing because I don't have a kid. I think you made a good point, Sivason...

This was an interesting thread, until you guys showed contempt to Sivason for simply asking for words we can all share. Communication in words and metaphor is what makes us human, after all, and people have found words for the most impossible of things. Why is drug use exempt? And again, "You had to be there" is not an explanation; I've been there, and found no things that transcended my ability to describe.

Sivason's challenge is an excellent one, and your responses might lead to a conversation that takes us back to the (very interesting) OP. Why not take a shot?

I thought my post did answer the challenge. Maybe I didn't understand the question.

Originally Posted by cmind

I thought my post did answer the challenge. Maybe I didn't understand the question.

I just reread your post, Cmind, and I guess you could say you answered it well. I guess it was that you didn't describe the actual experience, but the changes it brought on afterwords, but the changes did have to occur, didn't they?

Sorry about that; my bad!

Originally Posted by Woodstock

This sounds more like something that could happen on a dissociative (ketamine or DXM) or maybe diliriants (diphenhydramine or datura) than shrooms. I'm not saying it didn't happen, I've just never heard of anything like that on shrooms.


Car accidents happen, should no one drive a car? Maybe your experience was a nightmare, but a trip that bad is rare with the right dose in the right set and setting.

We had some special kind of Shrooms called Brazilian gold cap. All I can say is no one hear understands how terrified I was, you never will until you experience exactly what I saw. A nightmare with the likes you wouldn't believe.

Originally Posted by Sageous

I just reread your post, Cmind, and I guess you could say you answered it well. I guess it was that you didn't describe the actual experience, but the changes it brought on afterwords, but the changes did have to occur, didn't they?

Sorry about that; my bad!

Of course, my example was a personal thing. If you asked whether psychedelics could give insight into external, objective reality, then I'm not so sure. There are various stories about scientists having breakthroughs of understanding while tripping, but it's difficult to prove that they would not have gotten there eventually anyway.

Psychs do increase creativity for most people, so I can imagine a situation where a scientist is on the cusp of a breakthrough but fails to make the final push of understanding due to lack of DMT in his brain. However, this is probably rare.

Originally Posted by Woodstock

Please attempt to put into words any 'realizations' or 'expanded conciousness' you feel has been shown to you by meditating.

I honestly don't think any of this can be explained in words without sounding like a "common realization".

This is my point. The realizations one comes to may be special to the individual, but most of them are very mundane things that are not very mysterious. Earlier someone asked, if the realizations can be reached by normal means, why take drugs. It is a valid point.

CMIND has the most valid point if we really look at it. To paraphrase what I think CMIND said, the realization may be ordinary, but the person was not yet having the needed realization in theeir daily life. Basically, you can not explain a realization to someone who is not going to get it. Some realizattions are mundane, but can not sink in unless an event makes the person see them.

Here is a simple example. It is about loosing weight. This is a mundane truth, but simply telling someone is not much help. -To loose weight you need to burn more calories than you take in-. See, now you all know that, so none of us will ever have trouble witth our weight again, right? of course not. However, if someone is high and has a vivid vision of themself aas a blubbery mass shoveling in worms and filth, that may cause them to make a real life change. The realization could be summed up in "I am going to die if I keep eating, and it makes me hate myself" but that is not all that happened. The idea is mundane and no twist will make it seem special, but if the experience truely makes the person change, something powerful happened.

I used to believe drugs could expand someone, but now I realize that is often just a comforting excuse for why you use drugs. The actual realizations are rarely very special.

My challenge is not intened to say no one has everr gained insight from a drug experience. It is intended to get you guys to examine the validity of the idea. I would be actually interested in hearing what anyone feels they gained, but am also sure most of the things will sound mundane and simple to the average reader. I also am trying to assure any young reader that drugs have nothing, nothing to offer that can not be gained by self-awareness.

If you like psychedelics, use them. If you like meditation, meditate. Everyone learns and experiences things differently and has different preferences so maybe for one person psychedelics are more useful and someone else might like meditation better. Neither is better than the other, they're just different ways of getting to the same thing. The same realization on psychedelics can come faster than with meditation and can be more entertaining, but meditation is free and there are less risks. There are good and bad things about both of them.

Originally Posted by BossMan

We had some special kind of Shrooms called Brazilian gold cap. All I can say is no one hear understands how terrified I was, you never will until you experience exactly what I saw. A nightmare with the likes you wouldn't believe.

It doesn't matter what kind of shrooms you had, they all have psilocybin and psilocin so they have about the same effects. It sounds like what you had was probably laced with PCP or something similar.

To me, it's about the experience, not the realization. Of course I know I'm going to die one day, and realize that. But I've never had an experience that was as death-like as Salvia.

It's like your state before and after your first lucid dream. Before ever becoming lucid, you understand and realize that it is possible to gain awareness of the dream state. But that is nothing compared to actually becoming Lucid and experiencing it. Then, you can wake up and see the world through eyes that have seen the illusoriness of a dream.

I've had very intense and revealing experiences in meditation as well. It feels like the levels of realization are much gentler on that path.
Just the simple fact that you can stop a deep meditation, but not a trip.

Originally Posted by Woodstock

It doesn't matter what kind of shrooms you had, they all have psilocybin and psilocin so they have about the same effects. It sounds like what you had was probably laced with PCP or something similar.

As I said earlier, mushrooms can be designer drugs (or sure pcp) laced on ordinary mushrooms. This makes them a little more dangerous, because read all you want about mushrooms, it will not guarantee that you actual get them and not pcp or any weird random designer acid. The same holds true for LSD. More often than not what is sold as LSD is actually some other designer drug. ??? What! Dishonest drug dealers? Never

Originally Posted by sivason

As I said earlier, mushrooms can be designer drugs (or sure pcp) laced on ordinary mushrooms. This makes them a little more dangerous, because read all you want about mushrooms, it will not guarantee that you actual get them and not pcp or any weird random designer acid. The same holds true for LSD. More often than not what is sold as LSD is actually some other designer drug. ??? What! Dishonest drug dealers? Never

That's why it's safer to grow your mushrooms instead of buying them. I would never trust any mushrooms sold by a drug dealer and I'd rather stay out of the black market. Usually with LSD it's a similar chemical, but there are a few rare ones that can kill you if you ate a ten strip of it. That's why people buy things to test it.

If psychedelics were legal these problems wouldn't exist.

Originally Posted by Woodstock

If psychedelics were legal these problems wouldn't exist.

True. And they'd be a lot more psychedelic after the likes of Merck and Monsanto get their hands on them...

Originally Posted by Sageous

True. And they'd be a lot more psychedelic after the likes of Merck and Monsanto get their hands on them...

Patent law is also a giant turd and fucks everything up. If it wasn't for patent law Monsanto wouldn't even exist.

Originally Posted by Sageous

True. And they'd be a lot more psychedelic after the likes of Merck and Monsanto get their hands on them...

Originally Posted by cmind

Patent law is also a giant turd and fucks everything up. If it wasn't for patent law Monsanto wouldn't even exist.

What?

I want to respond to Sivason's question whether anyone has had significant realizations under the influence of hallucinogens, however, I'm responding from my phone so this post will be shorter than I'd like.
One significant experience I had was under the influence of LSD. Throughout the night I saw intertwined ribbons of rainbows floating in the air. At one point, the rainbows joined together and formed a rainbow deity, which floated above my head. A few weeks later, I was looking at a book on tantric meditation written by a Buddhist monk. He described a meditation technique where you envision a deity and focus on it while meditating and said "Their bodies are not like our bodies - they are psychic bodies, they are made of rainbows."
I saw this same goddess under other hallucinogens several times after this, and this experience greatly affected my cosmological beliefs and what religion I choose to practice.
However, I had been practicing meditation and lucid dreaming for a few years before this experience. While I did take hallucinogens recreationally occasionally, I usually took them with specific conscienceness expanding intentions and was very careful with dose, set, and setting.


There are many shamanic traditions that incorporate hallucinogens, so I believe it can be a valid path to knowledge when partnered with intention, trepidation, and deep self-evaluation. I agree that most people don't use them that way, and I have seen some very horrible effects of LSD on people. I also agree that lucid dreaming and meditation are better and safer paths to enlightenment. I also think hallucinogens, specifically plant based ones, don't necessarily offer the exact same revelations as meditation, but provide you with a differing viewpoint specifically related to that plant.

Originally Posted by hermine_hesse

I want to respond to Sivason's question whether anyone has had significant realizations under the influence of hallucinogens, however, I'm responding from my phone so this post will be shorter than I'd like.
One significant experience I had was under the influence of LSD. Throughout the night I saw intertwined ribbons of rainbows floating in the air. At one point, the rainbows joined together and formed a rainbow deity, which floated above my head. A few weeks later, I was looking at a book on tantric meditation written by a Buddhist monk. He described a meditation technique where you envision a deity and focus on it while meditating and said "Their bodies are not like our bodies - they are psychic bodies, they are made of rainbows."
I saw this same goddess under other hallucinogens several times after this, and this experience greatly affected my cosmological beliefs and what religion I choose to practice.
However, I had been practicing meditation and lucid dreaming for a few years before this experience. While I did take hallucinogens recreationally occasionally, I usually took them with specific conscienceness expanding intentions and was very careful with dose, set, and setting.


There are many shamanic traditions that incorporate hallucinogens, so I believe it can be a valid path to knowledge when partnered with intention, trepidation, and deep self-evaluation. I agree that most people don't use them that way, and I have seen some very horrible effects of LSD on people. I also agree that lucid dreaming and meditation are better and safer paths to enlightenment. I also think hallucinogens, specifically plant based ones, don't necessarily offer the exact same revelations as meditation, but provide you with a differing viewpoint specifically related to that plant.

Thanks for the answer. I have had some similar experiences with seeing deities on drugs, but I also have obtained the same type of experience using yogic practices in the Kundalini tradition. I think seeing something of this nature can be inspiring, but an atheist or agnostic could experience this and account it all to hallucinations. I one time saw all of the matter around me composed of these rainbow threads, espescially a large seashell I was staring into. It did enhance my understanding of concepts involving everything being connected and part of God. Yet again, I was already a believer; a non believer would never be 'converted' a into spirit/religious mindset if they simply doubt their experieence and chalk it up to hallucinations.

Originally Posted by sivason

Thanks for the answer. I have had some similar experiences with seeing deities on drugs, but I also have obtained the same type of experience using yogic practices in the Kundalini tradition. I think seeing something of this nature can be inspiring, but an atheist or agnostic could experience this and account it all to hallucinations. I one time saw all of the matter around me composed of these rainbow threads, espescially a large seashell I was staring into. It did enhance my understanding of concepts involving everything being connected and part of God. Yet again, I was already a believer; a non believer would never be 'converted' a into spirit/religious mindset if they simply doubt their experieence and chalk it up to hallucinations.

I agree that this experience could have been achieved through meditation, and it is better to go about it that way so that you have the knowledge to interpret the experience. Actually, the most impactful part of the experience for me was reading that a monk did achieve the same experience as me only through meditation. I probably would have chalked it up to meaningless hallucination had I not happened to read that book afterwards. I did not believe in deities of this sort or have any knowledge of them when I had this experience, so in a way it did convert me. It was probably years before I could actually reconcile this with my beliefs and understand the meaning of this experience, but it was definitely a defining moment that help set me on the path I am today. Now, the only hallucinogen I still experiment with is Salvia, mostly out of curiosity. (Salvia is also legal and not physically dangerous granted that you have a sober sitter.)
I suppose the bottom line is there are no shortcuts to enlightenment. Hallucinogens must be partnered with meditation, knowledge, and self examination to gain any significant, long lasting insights.
I have much more I could say, but I only have internet access on my phone right now, which makes lengthy replies difficult.

Originally Posted by hermine_hesse

...I suppose the bottom line is there are no shortcuts to enlightenment. Hallucinogens must be partnered with meditation, knowledge, and self examination to gain any significant, long lasting insights.

Amen.

Originally Posted by sivason

This is my point. The realizations one comes to may be special to the individual, but most of them are very mundane things that are not very mysterious. Earlier someone asked, if the realizations can be reached by normal means, why take drugs. It is a valid point.

The realizations may be reached by normal means, but the question of whether they ever actually will be is still valid. If the realization is reached via the experience provided to a person by drugs, you can't easily say that the realization would have ever occurred to that individual otherwise--or perhaps, at least, not in a timely manner (talking about making the realizations many years later). Among the many things that have radically changed my life and my perspective in regards to everything, drugs have been one of the more expedient and effective agents of such change. I'm not saying they are the only means of change, or even that they are the primary medians of change. I'm just saying that drugs, when used as tools with the specific purpose of gaining insight or altering perspective or things of a similar nature, have the agency to do so. They do not do this on their own, one has to actively seek to gain something in order to get anything out of it. That being said, this method is far easier to do without any kind of training or special practices. As a result, it makes this option more appealing to those without the knowledge of meditation or utilizing other methods to reach altered states--not to mention those who just want to feel good or have an interesting experience without the specific intention of learning something along the way that wind up getting something out of it in the end. You could probably say it's lazy, but you're entitled to your opinion. And in mine, drugs are one valid way out of many to try and expand your consciousness and to learn something new.

Originally Posted by sivason

I am sure that a good dose of DMT will cause someone to get so high the can barely think, and a stupidly high dose would make them piss themselves and forget their name. However, I would be willing to bet large summs of money that DMT is nothing special, and will make people just as goofy and mind-blown as mushrooms or acid.

How much?

Saying things like "I am sure" automatically lets everyone know you don't have first hand experience with it. DMT is linked to Dreaming and Near Death Experiences. It isn't just another chemical. It's called The Spirit Molecule for a reason.

Originally Posted by sivason

I am sure that a good dose of DMT will cause someone to get so high the can barely think, and a stupidly high dose would make them piss themselves and forget their name. I know that psychedelics can cause new combinations of awareness, and make some people 'realize' obvious truths, they have always failed to see. However, I would be willing to bet large summs of money that DMT is nothing special, and will make people just as goofy and mind-blown as mushrooms or acid.

Ha ha, not exactly. I have never taken DMT because I have no idea where to find it, but I have read a great deal about it. It can make you hallucinate so much that you go into a completely hallucinogenic world where you don't even perceive what is really around you. It's on a whole new level above LSD and psilocybin mushrooms.

I have done salvia divinorum a bunch of times. It is the second strongest hallucinogen known to humanity, and I know what insane levels I have gone to on it. I took it one time and perceived that I was a yard during silent earthquake. The yard split in half, and I didn't know which half I was. I "became" the bottom of a wooden leg holding up a pier in a lake another time, and another time I "became" a cookie jar that was also Ernie from Sesame Street. I also saw Bert from Sesame Street running around a room with superstrings (of the particle physics kind) and setting up a string configuration so he could pull it and end existence. I saw it as funny because my thinking and perception were totally warped. DMT is the one hallucinogen that is stronger than salvia divinorum, so I know it's not on a level with LSD and mushrooms.

However... I do think that all of that could be experienced in lucid dreams. Also, I am not encouraging the use of DMT or salvia divinorum. They both can horrify people so much that they are mentally screwed up for days, weeks, or months. A friend of mine visited from L.A. and did some salvia in my living room six years ago, and he asked me repeatedly through the whole ten minute trip if I was completely sure that he was going to come out of the state he was in. I saw him again a year later, and he said he was mentally off balance for months after doing salvia. The vast majority of people who do it never do it a second time.

I see psychedelics the way I see skydiving and snow skiing down black double diamond slopes. You are playing a major game when you do those things, and you have to understand what game you are playing. I don't discourage doing any of those things, but I don't encourage them either. I just tell people what I know about them and let them decide.

What would happen if you ate LSD, ate Shrooms, and Smoked DMT?

Originally Posted by PlanesWalker

How much?

Saying things like "I am sure" automatically lets everyone know you don't have first hand experience with it. DMT is linked to Dreaming and Near Death Experiences. It isn't just another chemical. It's called The Spirit Molecule for a reason.

His point still remains valid and DMT has never been proven to actually have a significant role in the body, it is merely speculated that it is created in the pineal gland and since there is no published scientific evidence that it does play a role in the body the hypothesis remains completely unproven.

Originally Posted by dutchraptor

His point still remains valid and DMT has never been proven to actually have a significant role in the body, it is merely speculated that it is created in the pineal gland and since there is no published scientific evidence that it does play a role in the body the hypothesis remains completely unproven.

Maybe it has not been conclusively proven or even successfully theorized, but I think there is very strong logic in favor of the idea that DMT plays a role in dreams and near death experiences. Would the strongest hallucinogenic drug we know of just happen to have become a natural chemical in our bodies after a very long process of evolution although it does not play a role in natural hallucinogenic conscious functioning? That would be one of the strangest facts I have ever heard of if I found out it's true. Dreams are necessary, DMT causes extreme hallucinogenic states, and DMT became part of our systems through evolution. Near death experiences and plant induced DMT trips have an amazing number of parallels, such as recurring experiences like light at the end of the tunnel, communications with bizarre alien like beings, superstrong emotions, an indescribable concept of reality, metaphysical conceptual mind expansion, and descriptions of the experience as seeming more real than ordinary reality.

I really don't think it's all a big coincidence. I think we trip on DMT a bit every time we dream, and I think our most insane dream experiences result from extra levels of DMT. I am also almost completely convinced that near death experiences are really powerful DMT trips. I can't prove it, but I think its probability is so high that its probability of not being true qualifies as extremely unrealistic.