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      LDs and psychedelics

      I've searched many forums to see if people feel this way about psychedelics. I just want people out there who are confused, scared or feeling overly detached from reality, to know that you are not alone (if you even exists ;-P)

      I am deathly afraid of psychedelics. Meaning, I don't understand how to take them without dying.
      From salvia and cannabis, it seems like psychedelics make one lucid to reality. The experience shows, very convincingly, that this is all a dream.
      In these states, reality operates like a dream. (physics, communication, manifestations, train of thought)

      The feeling is like becoming lucid in a dream. There is a "Woah... wow" and then a realization that everything that happened before becoming lucid was... not what you thought it was.

      It completely breaks down all conceptions and previous paradigms of reality. ITS A DREAM! The feeling is so liberating. Like becoming enlightened or something. Becoming lucid to reality.
      It may go further than that, a "moving on", I'm too scared to let go.

      And then the come down. I'm no longer Lucid, but remember that I was.

      I've never done the typical mushies or acid, so I am really just talking out of my butt. XD
      Too scared of death. Or I guess scared of being given the choice of death and having to "go with the trip", or fight for my sanity, tell myself it's just a drug, and try to come down to normalcy.

      Sorry for ramblings. Just after reading so many trip reports and only getting subtle mentions of it, I wanted to address the elephant in the room. This is a dream.

      (These are just my perceptions of the experience. I don't want to scare people off of them or put anyone in a bad head space. I have narcolepsy and may have other psychological problems [psychosis] from a long term brain infection. This might not be how the experience is for others. I hope you're travels are loving and insightful) If you've made it this far, thanks for the read!
      Last edited by WhiteWind; 12-18-2012 at 03:48 AM.
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      I am not oppossed to what you have said, but the deffinition of lucid is 'clear.'

      Say someone is slobery drunk and rambling, you may say "he is not lucid at all" refering to how unclear his speech is. So, what drugs do is decrease lucidity.
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      lucid is the word I've learned to use for dream realization

      His speech may be unclear to others while he is lucid. opposite day?

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      If you're scared of psychedelics then you're doing the right thing by staying away from them. I spent a lot of time in high school reading scientific journals and research papers on various experiments or observations with LSD, shrooms, and other psychedelics. I was fascinated and curious. The experience can have profound affects, and in some cases it was certainly not good. I remember reading a psychology study about a group, and one person had a particularly 'bad trip'. She never recovered from it, and even a year later said she would still look at people and sometimes see hollow, empty skeletons, which is what she experienced under the substance. She later committed suicide.

      It's not all that bad, some people have profound experiences. A close friend of mine experienced telepathy with another person, and it's changed his life forever. Meaning, that happened like 15 years ago and he still talks about it, and it's opened his mind to the idea that something incredible is going on in the realm of consciousness that we are not commonly privy to. I've had mind shifting experiences, but also a couple of very bad ones. I always wanted to approach it as an experiment, and try different things like ESP, but the people I was with were not thinking the same thing, and I quickly lost any sort of control over my awareness.

      Lucid dreaming is far more of an incredible experience in my opinion. I have not touched DMT, but ayahuasca fascinates me. Still, there's a good Coast to Coast show on Youtube with Stephen LaBerge and a colleague. Toward the end, Art Bell asks his colleague if he's ever tried Ayahuasca or another form of DMT, and how it compared to lucid dreaming. His answer was rather telling - STICK WITH LUCID DREAMING!
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      Quote Originally Posted by sivason View Post
      I am not oppossed to what you have said, but the deffinition of lucid is 'clear.'

      Say someone is slobery drunk and rambling, you may say "he is not lucid at all" refering to how unclear his speech is. So, what drugs do is decrease lucidity.
      drugs (especialy psychedelics) do not necessarily "decrease lucidity", but rather decrease it in some areas (like the normal areas) and increase it in other areas, opening you up to a new way of thought, understanding and philosophy. and some psychedelics such as dmt do not confuse you or make you drunk at all, but they do open you up to a completely new dimension and realm of ideas.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Qwer View Post
      drugs (especialy psychedelics) do not necessarily "decrease lucidity", but rather decrease it in some areas (like the normal areas) and increase it in other areas, opening you up to a new way of thought, understanding and philosophy. and some psychedelics such as dmt do not confuse you or make you drunk at all, but they do open you up to a completely new dimension and realm of ideas.
      Exactly. We have a limited amount of awareness, and drugs just redistribute that awareness in new configurations. Like how some writers use alcohol or marijuana for their writing. It takes away awareness from outside distractions and leaves more to focus on the writing.
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      LDing is far more safe and interesting than drugs. Stay away from drugs. I've seen people die from OD.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Qwer View Post
      drugs (especialy psychedelics) do not necessarily "decrease lucidity", but rather decrease it in some areas (like the normal areas) and increase it in other areas, opening you up to a new way of thought, understanding and philosophy. and some psychedelics such as dmt do not confuse you or make you drunk at all, but they do open you up to a completely new dimension and realm of ideas.

      I am sure that a good dose of DMT will cause someone to get so high the can barely think, and a stupidly high dose would make them piss themselves and forget their name. I know that psychedelics can cause new combinations of awareness, and make some people 'realize' obvious truths, they have always failed to see. However, I would be willing to bet large summs of money that DMT is nothing special, and will make people just as goofy and mind-blown as mushrooms or acid.
      Last edited by Sivason; 12-23-2012 at 07:32 PM.
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      I think drugs and LDing cannot be compared.

      Drugs are substances that externally affect your hormones in your brain altering your perception of the world making you imagine things that don't exist; while LDing is learning to use some parts of your brain, especially the ones linked with self-perception while you sleep.

      http://www.dreamviews.com/f11/scient...eaming-139112/

      I don't see anything in common. I also believe that if anyone uses drugs to LD is greatly mistaken.

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      Quote Originally Posted by JeffSteel View Post
      LDing is far more safe and interesting than drugs. Stay away from drugs. I've seen people die from OD.
      that is so stupid. LD and drugs are both interesting but to say LDing is way more interesting than drugs you must know nothing about drugs. what about ayahuasca and dmt?
      and if people OD then they were being stupid. yes some drugs are easy to OD from but some drugs are acctualy almost imposible. it would take a garbage bag of magic mushrooms to OD.
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      Quote Originally Posted by sivason View Post
      I am sure that a good dose of DMT will cause someone to get so high the can barely think, and a stupidly high dose would make them piss themselves and forget their name. I know that psychedelics can cause new combinations of awareness, and make some people 'realize' obvious truths, they have always failed to see. However, I would be willing to bet large summs of money that DMT is nothing special, and will make people just as goofy and mind-blown as mushrooms or acid.
      in the book written about scientific study of dmt called dmt the spirit molecule the people recieving it said they coud think perfectly clearly.

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      Quote Originally Posted by JeffSteel View Post
      I think drugs and LDing cannot be compared.

      Drugs are substances that externally affect your hormones in your brain altering your perception of the world making you imagine things that don't exist; while LDing is learning to use some parts of your brain, especially the ones linked with self-perception while you sleep.

      http://www.dreamviews.com/f11/scient...eaming-139112/

      I don't see anything in common. I also believe that if anyone uses drugs to LD is greatly mistaken.
      both dreams and drug trips are the creation of differant drugs and chemicals, so who are you to say that they are less real. just because they come from an external source, humans are obviously ment to consume things from an external source, for example food.
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      If you convince yourself your an orange and start peeling your skin in an LD, nothing happens your just a happy orange taking his clothes off.

      If your tripping hard on acid and convince yourself your an orange and start peeling your skin off you'll die a horrible and painful death.
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      Quote Originally Posted by BossMan View Post
      If you convince yourself your an orange and start peeling your skin in an LD, nothing happens your just a happy orange taking his clothes off.

      If your tripping hard on acid and convince yourself your an orange and start peeling your skin off you'll die a horrible and painful death.
      that is why you have to be responsible withe the dose, place and people you are around an the way you do it

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      that is so stupid. LD and drugs are both interesting but to say LDing is way more interesting than drugs you must know nothing about drugs. what about ayahuasca and dmt?
      and if people OD then they were being stupid. yes some drugs are easy to OD from but some drugs are acctualy almost imposible. it would take a garbage bag of magic mushrooms to OD.

      Quote Originally Posted by Qwer View Post
      both dreams and drug trips are the creation of differant drugs and chemicals, so who are you to say that they are less real. just because they come from an external source, humans are obviously ment to consume things from an external source, for example food.
      Please read what I write more carefully and don't be offensive. Everyone here shares his opinion and interest is subjective.

      I said that when you try to LD; actually you learn to use your brain in a different way under certain circumstances. Can you accomplish that with drugs? I don't think so. Drugs affect your perception of the world.

      Did I say it is less real? It seems to be real for the person that uses them but for the rest of the real world, it's not. In a dream everything is real, because that's the way the dream world works. In a dream everything is possible. Also you cannot die or become a junky.

      If you convince yourself your an orange and start peeling your skin in an LD, nothing happens your just a happy orange taking his clothes off.

      If your tripping hard on acid and convince yourself your an orange and start peeling your skin off you'll die a horrible and painful death.
      +1
      Last edited by JeffSteel; 12-24-2012 at 10:31 AM.

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      Quote Originally Posted by BossMan View Post
      If you convince yourself your an orange and start peeling your skin in an LD, nothing happens your just a happy orange taking his clothes off.

      If your tripping hard on acid and convince yourself your an orange and start peeling your skin off you'll die a horrible and painful death.
      Gotta love that analogy, if I would recieve a penny for everytime I've heard the orange analogy to scare kids of drugs. It has to be the most common bullshit way of telling a false propaganda.
      I've litteraly heard different people say that their friends thought they were oranges and that they tried to peel of their own skin.

      Anyway, since dmt has been brought up I would like to say that it might aswell me the compound responsible for dreaming according to the scientific research that has been done on it. But you can never know for sure. The reason dreams are sometimes harder to recall than a DMT trip might even be that your brain produces more DMT than the regular inhalation-dose and causes a black-out of the DMT experience(while sleeping/dreaming).
      It's too early to judge DMT though, don't make assumption because it has been put in the category of drugs, at the time it was put in that category, almost no valid research and knowledge existed about the compound.

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      I'd pick lucids over drugs any day for one simple reason. You can't do anything in a lucid dream that will harm you in any way, no matter what you think or do if you have a clear awareness of the lucid dream nothing can stand in your way.
      Drugs on the other hand are no matter how small to some degree unreliable, they can cause some kind of mental or physical damage and for that reason I don't think the're worth it.
      As to gaining new world views I would much rather go through a process of logically thinking about things in a peacefull environment like a lucid dream to come to a realisation than having to over stimulate my mind with drugs to get a potentially false realisation.

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      Quote Originally Posted by daban View Post
      Gotta love that analogy, if I would recieve a penny for everytime I've heard the orange analogy to scare kids of drugs. It has to be the most common bullshit way of telling a false propaganda.
      I've litteraly heard different people say that their friends thought they were oranges and that they tried to peel of their own skin.
      Its an urban legend, doesn't make it any less possible I've tried 3.5g of brazillian goldcaps and it was a bad trip, not just bad but nightmarish. I can totally see how someone could hurt himself or go insane if he doesn't know whats about to hit him. Discount it as bullshit if you want but there is legitimacy in the scare, and saying that there isn't is just a druggies naive reaction.

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      Quote Originally Posted by JeffSteel View Post
      LDing is far more safe and interesting than drugs. Stay away from drugs. I've seen people die from OD.
      The word "drugs" isn't very specific. Caffeine is a drug, should no one drink coffee? It's impossible to OD on cannabis, LSD, or mushrooms. It has never happened. Thousands of people have overdosed and died on caffeine, but that was from stupidly high amounts and I still wouldn't tell someone not to use caffeine because some people do stupid things. Not all drugs are dangerous.

      Quote Originally Posted by BossMan View Post
      Its an urban legend, doesn't make it any less possible I've tried 3.5g of brazillian goldcaps and it was a bad trip, not just bad but nightmarish. I can totally see how someone could hurt himself or go insane if he doesn't know whats about to hit him. Discount it as bullshit if you want but there is legitimacy in the scare, and saying that there isn't is just a druggies naive reaction.
      Except schizophrenics, you don't go insane or delusional on psychedelics. That's what a Benadryl overdose or datura does to you. It's not a "druggies naive reaction", it's just knowing the effects of drugs. 3.5g of shrooms is too much for the first time. If you had never used psychedelics before, it probably was too intense and unexpected. You should also think about set and setting. In the right place at the right time with the right dose and right mindset, you won't have a bad trip.

      Quote Originally Posted by JeffSteel View Post
      I said that when you try to LD; actually you learn to use your brain in a different way under certain circumstances. Can you accomplish that with drugs?
      Yes
      Drugs affect your perception of the world.
      So does lucid dreaming, in different ways.
      Also you cannot die or become a junky.
      You can't die on shrooms or acid and I don't think anyone would want to trip every day and they aren't addictive, so you won't become a "junky".
      Last edited by Woodstock; 12-24-2012 at 05:28 PM.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Woodstock View Post
      Except schizophrenics, you don't go insane or delusional on psychedelics.
      Substance-induced psychosis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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      It can cause schizophrenia if you are predisposed to it, I never said that isn't true. But for anyone else it won't cause delusions, especially not something as ridiculous as thinking you're an orange that needs to be peeled...

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      I picked up somewhere that the state of your brain on mushrooms is identical to the state of REM-sleep. The only difference being that you are completely awake. (most of the time unable to sleep at all, no matter how physically tired you are at that moment)

      Moreover, mushrooms can put you in a kind of Limbo-state of where your not sure if you are actually in reality or not. But you ARE. And you look silly to other people. And it can be scary. It is definetely not for everyone. And it is also definetely not the same as Lucid dreaming. My friend a few days ago felt the pain of the earth. He cried tears and moaned we are hurting the planet physically. The earth is a living organism and we are drilling holes in her body. She endures pain all the time. Loads of it. We are simply taking from the earth without giving back as a human species. This has to change.

      That's what my friend said.. this is what psychedelics can do. They are certainly not for everyone. Being able to endure the energy of the planet is one major thing. Imagine being able to endure the power of the sun. I'm not saying feeling the warm glow of the summer on your skin.. I mean feeling the energy release of a supernova out in space as if you are the star exploding at that time. This is NOT to be taken lightly.

      The dreamlike nature of reality is there.. But not obvious. Insanity is a real possibility on psychedelics. There is no ensurance that you will come out of the experience with your sanity intact. (you can.. if you choose not to take every thought you had under influence of psychedelics with 100% certainty, sometimes it IS good to take some things lightly) Trust me I know.

      On the other hand.. Psyches make life worhtwhile. I don't even think i could enjoy life if it weren't for psychedelics. This is the food for my soul. And my way of life. Until death do us part. A good trip once a year is all i need to feel connected to the earth , the animals and the community. Ramble ramble.. My point being.. Psychedelics are really really interesting

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      The effects of hallucinogenic drugs resemble some of the core symptoms of schizophrenia.

      Psychedelics and schizophrenia. [Trends Neurosci. 2009] - PubMed - NCBI
      And for the reverse of this statement - some of the early legal psychiatric experiments with LSD and other hallucinogenic drugs were specifically targeting schizophrenics with the hypothesis that these substances might 'balance' the serotonin imbalances causing their hallucinations. And if you've ever watched the movie Jacob's Ladder, you'll get an idea of how the US military experimented with these substances... Altered States was another good movie.

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      Come now. I am hearing both extreams, but little ballanced truth.

      I did plenty of LSD and mushrooms in the early eighties. Those who say you can not OD are correct. The addictive element is just not there with either, being rated far below sugar in the US goverments addictive scale. However, to say they do not pose danger is silly. You may say, with proper understanding, in the proper setting, with the proper dose, but that is rarely what happens. Some people, like I was, followed all that logic, but how often does some young person just take what they are given, with little clue and in a bad setting? If any of you wish to say people do not wreck vehicles or accidenty seriously cut themselves on these drugs, then you are not as aware as you think.

      I will also side with Dutchraptor on the realization part. Nothing that a drug causes one to realize can not be realized by self-awareness. The conciousness expanding really just comes from how anal and single minded we are raised. You may 'realize' something that changes your view on life, but the realization can be obtained in other ways. There is no magical ticket to enlightenment, all drug can do is make it impossible to continue forward with the socially set blinders in place. Those repressions and blinders can be removed through self-awareness. Also most of the people I knew got little to nothing out of it, just stupidly high. The mind-expanding stuff only happens to those who are lucky or are seeking it.
      Last edited by Sivason; 12-24-2012 at 08:29 PM.
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      Quote Originally Posted by sivason View Post
      Also most of the people I knew got little to nothing out of it, just stupidly high. The mind-expanding stuff only happens to those who are lucky or are seeking it.
      I can agree with sivason - during the 90's I did my share, and I had a mystical intention with plans to experiment with consciousness and reality in my altered states. However, time and again I did not create the set and setting, and rather just went along with other fools I happened to be in company with, whose intentions were different from mine. I've known two friends who had experiences that changed them forever. One was certainly for the worst, and another for the better. In the first case, a friend who was already prone to self-consciousness and paranoia had those circuits hyper-stimulated. Needless to say hyper-paranoia stuck around long (years) after the drugs wore off. In the better case, a friend experienced telepathy with another close friend. Though such things cannot easily be proven, he felt it and verified it, and it was enough to open his mind to the concepts of reality and the constraints of hard-wired belief-systems.
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