Thread: Shared Dreaming Counter-Argument

Originally Posted by Avian

1) Many people just say they proved it from their dreams, which is completely counter-intuitive.




2) If it is correct, it will be reasonable to believe shared dreaming is real.

1)Really? Which people? Seriously, many people? Please list them, as I have found no person on here claiming to be able to do this in any repeatable manner, beyond vague feelings, certainly not an exchange of specific information.


2) If you can not do it, that would only prove that at your level of training YOU can not do it. Be prepared to spend 20 years training for your experiment. Lucid dreaming with a level of expert skill is at least as hard as learning to play violin professionally.

Would it prove it? It may prove it to you, which is the big foot example you gave above. That is good enough for me, but your example is far far away from a controlled clinical experiment using scientific method. I am more than fine with that, and it matches my point about belief in unproven things if you have 1st hand experience with it.

I think everyone isn't looking at one of the biggest factors in this argument. Although the idea that we only use 10% of our brain isn't proven I think it holds some serious value in the fact that we don't use our brain to it's full potential. Dreaming holds one of the biggest examples of this idea, for instance our brain can construct or reconstruct an entire city or dreamscape purely based on memory or nothing at all. Truly think about that for a second, imagine if you could bring that brain power to the real world you could be the greatest architect to ever live. Some of the most of successful people in human history have used the ideas they have uncovered in their brains to come up with some of the most advanced breakthroughs in human history such as Niels Bohr and the atomic structure. Look my point being that we don't know a lot about the brain but shared dreaming is very much a possibility and many other concepts such as telepathy. I think we should leave this discussion with our minds open to any ideas because we really just don't know enough about the brain to say no to a concept. I mean 200 years ago the world was flat....

Nothing beats first hand experience, nothing at all. Once you have that personal evidence with you that you can use, then you can form a more consolidated opinion about whether these things are 'real' or not. In the meantime, many of us have absolutely no evidence whatsoever both in favor or against any of these things, whether it be shared dreaming, precognitive dreams or any supernatural ability at all. Which is why I see these discussions getting nowhere because almost all the people involved in them (myself included) have never even considered the possibility of trying these things out for themselves. It angers me how many decide to wait for science to prove or disprove these things, when you have the opportunity to go out there and verify it for yourself. That it may take a considerable amount of time? sure, but it's better than doing nothing or waiting for somebody else to do it. All this ongoing discussion could become much more productive if the participants in it had at least some background experience in the topic. Otherwise, there's really no point in this, other than discussing possibilities. Should we believe 100% in the anecdotal evidence of others? Maybe not, but it at least offers some information as to whether any of this might be true. In the end, it represents valuable evidence to the one who did his/her own experiment.

The ideas we're discussing in here hold ultimately zero validity because we have no evidence to support our ideas, not even personal evidence. I don't know if shared dreaming is possible, and because I have no evidence that supports its existence or lack of existence, then I can't say whether it's real or not. I can form an idea as to whether I think it may be possible (or not possible), but unless I go out there and search for the answer, then my ideas are nothing more than that, ideas. I still, however, WANT to believe shared dreaming is a real thing, or any other supernatural dream phenomena.

Scientific proof about something is always a good thing, when it's there. When it isn't, we have nothing more than what we have experienced. Who knows, whatever personal evidence we have may turn out to be true after all, in the eyes of the scientific community. I'm sure it wouldn't be the first time it has happened.

Originally Posted by StephL

Exactly!
I've been using this argument myself, never mind all the other ones - I am convinced, we would see the fallout from such a scenario deeply engrained in culture; and would have found scientific proof by now, besides multiple usages - no matter where you move the goalposts. Curiosity fuelled by actuality, not wish-full thinking.

And yet, we went from day 1 for say 100,000 years with out figuring out radio waves, which were passing through our bodies every second of every one of those 100,000 years.

Originally Posted by sivason

And yet, we went from day 1 for say 100,000 years with out figuring out radio waves, which were passing through our bodies every second of every one of those 100,000 years.

The problem is that we have already discovered radiowaves, and we didn't have today's technology to discover it with either. So, now that we have such incredible technology, why have we not detected said powers? There isn't much of an excuse. We have the intellect, we have the tools, where is the substance?

Originally Posted by sivason

And yet, we went from day 1 for say 100,000 years with out figuring out radio waves, which were passing through our bodies every second of every one of those 100,000 years.

Yes. But humanity wasn't confronted with strange phenomena, which's explanation would turn out to be about radio-waves.
They don't affect us, passing through us - they do not beg for an explanation, they didn't cause unusual, inexplicable results, let alone held a conceivable promise of potential benefit.
While in the case of supernatural abilities - we are talking about something, which should have been eliciting actual noticeable effects for those 100.000 years. And unlike other relevant "mysteries" - we wouldn't have needed any technology to go after deciphering it, learning it, developing an art out of it. We only needed our minds for it, and that would have been possible right from the start.
Lets say physics and neurobiology would indeed allow for this sort of phenomenon - it would present an evolutionary benefit, I don't think, it'd stay occult for the vast majority of people, but rather develop into a common ability, at least a commonly known about ability over those thousands upon thousands of years.

So what I'm saying is - if humanity would have been confronted with the mysterious results of those activities, our curiosity and resourcefulness would have been sparked in such a way as to develop a whole culture around it, teachers, experimenters, you name it. A really widespread up to universal culture, because the potential of it would be immense. A scenario like in fantasy fiction, maybe, with magical schools and adepts and stuff*, but part of the normal world and undoubted. And in such a scenario, I would expect proper scientific proof by now as well, that's rather an afterthought of the before mentioned, though.

Of course you could say - naa - these abilities are too rare, or weak, or hard to master, or being too purposefully and skilfully hidden to really produce an observable fallout.

So hence this view of mine is not a real argument, it can be shot down from several directions at once, I'm aware of that.
It's just my personal opinion, that if there was such a potential in principle - then it would have put it's stamp on human history and culture.


I'm not in the mood to argue, actually, I was just perking up at the OP, because this point is only seldom brought forward by somebody else, that's why I chimed in and agreed.
Peace!


*One of my personal favourite desires, that it would be so. All my childhood, and beyond - and yes, it was sort of sad to come to the conclusion, that this indeed is but a dream. After getting into lucid dreaming, this sadness has been countered in my mind, though. Even while magic isn't something I will ever encounter in real life - I can have as much of it as I want in my LDs. This is consolation for me. Maybe it is very well hidden, how much attraction all of this once held, and still holds for me, since I'm always arguing against it these days, against the reality of it. But make no mistake, I was into stuff like this a lot, up to wanting to believe in elves in my adulthood. I still love art of the "spiritual kind", and I still crave such experiences, but I'm expecting them only in my dreams.

All in the sense of good fun and a neat debate. No arguing intended.

Originally Posted by StephL

1)Yes. But humanity wasn't confronted with strange phenomena, which's explanation would turn out to be about radio-waves.
They don't affect us, passing through us - they do not beg for an explanation, they didn't cause unusual, inexplicable results, let alone held a conceivable promise of potential benefit.


2)While in the case of supernatural abilities - we are talking about something, which should have been eliciting actual noticeable effects for those 100.000 years.


3) And unlike other relevant "mysteries" - we wouldn't have needed any technology to go after deciphering it, learning it, developing an art out of it. We only needed our minds for it, and that would have been possible right from the start.


4) Lets say physics and neurobiology would indeed allow for this sort of phenomenon - it would present an evolutionary benefit, I don't think, it'd stay occult for the vast majority of people, but rather develop into a common ability, at least a commonly known about ability over those thousands upon thousands of years.

So what I'm saying is - if humanity would have been confronted with the mysterious results of those activities, our curiosity and resourcefulness would have been sparked in such a way as to develop a whole culture around it, teachers, experimenters, you name it.

5) A really widespread up to universal culture, because the potential of it would be immense. A scenario like in fantasy fiction, maybe, with magical schools and adepts and stuff*, but part of the normal world and undoubted.

6)Of course you could say - naa - these abilities are too rare, or weak, or hard to master, or being too purposefully and skilfully hidden to really produce an observable fallout.

So hence this view of mine is not a real argument, it can be shot down from several directions at once, I'm aware of that.

1) Fine, switch my example to electricity. It is observable, and so on. It is by far the easiest force of its kind to see and study, but we are really just understanding it well in the last 80 years or so. The photon which is even more profound on the level of our awareness and interaction is to this day barely understood. The Higgs Bosan particle has possibly been observed one time despite 20 years of our top scientists spending millions searching for it. It supposedly gives mass to matter, which is a profound effect indeed.


2) Please refer to every holy man recorded in every religion for all of history.

3) Chi, Ki, Kundalini, Prana, Rekie, sufism, shamanism, kabal, gnostism, rosicrutianism,,, and so on

4) About the same as how Lucid dreaming is so darn simple to master and understand and useful that everyone is doing it? What possible evolutionary benefit would shared dreaming offer if it took 20 years to master and no one was teaching it.

5) Widespread like Ninjitsu or Jujitsu were in the 18th century? Those things were as hidden and rare as anything, but are nothing more than knowledge of physical skills. As wide spread as those schools that teach women to break wine goblets with their voices? I imagine only 1 in a 1000 have the potential to do that trick, but far fewer than 1 in a 1000 every try it in a serious way. It is probably more useful than shared dreaming as the wine glass does not need 20 years training to break. I have never seen that skill, but hear it is real. Do you know of any universities specializing in it?

6) Thanks, enough said there.

Originally Posted by sivason

All in the sense of good fun and a neat debate. No arguing intended.

That's nice!

1) Fine, switch my example to electricity. It is observable, and so on. It is by far the easiest force of its kind to see and study, but we are really just understanding it well in the last 80 years or so. The photon which is even more profound on the level of our awareness and interaction is to this day barely understood. The Higgs Bosan particle has possibly been observed one time despite 20 years of our top scientists spending millions searching for it. It supposedly gives mass to matter, which is a profound effect indeed.

This is a better analogy, but I've got an objection again. Electricity would be one of these "other relevant mysteries", I mentioned; something, which can indeed be witnessed in it's at time extreme effects, say lighting strikes.
But you do need technology in order to make use of it and to try and understand it. It's not a human ability, like some electric fish have it. If it were one, I guess, early humankind would have found multiple uses and nobody would doubt it - one jolt and it's demonstrated to satisfaction.

You are correct, though, just having something demonstrated does by no means provide you with an explanation as to the mechanism of it. In such a hypothetical world with magic - I could well imagine the phenomenon to be somewhat elusive to scientific scrutiny, maybe like QM, but not ultimately so, and the higher the importance people ascribe to it, the more money and resources would be thrown at it.
Again - in order to use and demonstrate "supernatural abilities", all you need is minds, unaided.

4) About the same as how Lucid dreaming is so darn simple to master and understand and useful that everyone is doing it? What possible evolutionary benefit would shared dreaming offer if it took 20 years to master and no one was teaching it.

Yes - my estimation on the benefits doesn't really apply to shared dreaming, and that of course is the topic of the thread. Why did I say this then? Because of a conjecture of mine, of course open to debate - I believe, that if something as monumental as direct contact between minds over a distance would be possible in principle - then it wouldn't be only the case when it comes to dreams, but the door would indeed be open for at the least telepathy, but probably all sorts of magic. Whatever spiritual realms or forces or fields... you claim there are - at one point they needed to get into direct contact with another person's mind, and if you think the brain as an antenna, like I read it often, then what actually happens would be your mind influencing another person's not only mind, but brain, even if secondarily. So there you'd have a theoretical basis for the mind taking influence on other matter. You could say, only animate matter, or only brains of sentient beings, sure. But for me, if one of those classical phenomena would be possible - a bunch of others, at least a select part, should be possible as well. And evolution, having the possible access to it, might well have selected related abilities into animals as well. Imagine prey and predator scenarios under these premises - it would be directly relevant.
Anyway - all this on the basis of postulating another state of affairs in physics and biology than we know, to accommodate for it.

2) Please refer to every holy man recorded in every religion for all of history.

3) Chi, Ki, Kundalini, Prana, Rekie, sufism, shamanism, kabal, gnostism, rosicrutianism,,, and so on

5) Widespread like Ninjitsu or Jujitsu were in the 18th century? Those things were as hidden and rare as anything, but are nothing more than knowledge of physical skills. As wide spread as those schools that teach women to break wine goblets with their voices? I imagine only 1 in a 1000 have the potential to do that trick, but far fewer than 1 in a 1000 every try it in a serious way. It is probably more useful than shared dreaming as the wine glass does not need 20 years training to break. I have never seen that skill, but hear it is real. Do you know of any universities specializing in it?

It's a matter of scale, under the above assumption of enormous potential usefulness. I'd really expect a fantasy world with famous sorcerers influencing international politics since ages and different animal ecosystems etc.
I'd really expect this, I'm serious. It's only an add-on, a speculation I entertain, though; it has no real value as a counter-argument, if it's on it's own and taken without the classical approach: no mechanism conceivable*, combined with lack of valid evidence**, unfortunately combined with many examples of sloppy science up to tampering, false claims and right-out fraud to gain power and/or rip people off their money. None of these alone would be sufficient to judge, but taken together, they do convince me.

6) Thanks, enough said there.

Cheers - did part of "your work" there!



*Conceivable on the basis of the state of current science; this point extends to theoretical violation of established natural laws and scientific theories - theories not in the colloquial use of hypothesis, or conjecture. That's a can of worms, I'm honestly too lazy to open, though. What I remember now, is having read about problems with relativity theory and thermodynamics, and the arguments were comprehensible and plausible enough for me.

**This can stand on it's own, but need not be sufficient: Say something of interest hasn't been properly tried yet, a mechanism is conceivable and possibly a lot of credible anecdotal evidence present.