Thread: My current thinking on shared dreaming

May be we need to have loving trusting relationship before a team could reach higher potential.

There is always the fear of somone getting inside us. In a devoted couple those fears have already been addressed

Just read this in one of Carlos Casteneda, seemed quite similar.

"They dreamed together, '" he replied. "As you yourself know, it's perfectly possible for a group of seers to activate the same unused emanations. And in this case also, there are no known steps, it just happens; there is no technique to follow."

He added that in dreaming together, something in us takes the lead and suddenly we find ourselves sharing the same view with other dreamers. What happens is that our human condition makes us focus the glow of awareness automatically on the same emanations that other human beings are using; we adjust the position of our assemblage points to fit the others around us. We do that on the right side, in our ordinary perception, and we also do it on the left side, while dreaming together.

I'm still not figuring out and haven't thought about shared dreaming. What kind of motive would be a good example that is used in shared dreaming?

Originally Posted by sivason

May be we need to have loving trusting relationship before a team could reach higher potential.

There is always the fear of someone getting inside me. In a devoted couple those fears have already been addressed

The difficulty with that is there isn't as much untapped metaphorical potential with someone you already know well, since you've already shared everything with them. And its a lot harder to demonstrate that anything new really has been shared, since there's so much more opportunity for contamination of the result through previous common experience. But I agree that maybe your way is the right way anyway. Maybe someone can get so good at it that way that they can control it better, and demonstrate it that way. That person won't be me though.

Originally Posted by Dthoughts

I'm still not figuring out and haven't thought about shared dreaming. What kind of motive would be a good example that is used in shared dreaming?

Motive should include a concern that the experience be healthy and karmically constructive for both people. I've tried to use spiritual growth as a motive, since that might help keep people in a healthy non-invasive/manipulative mindset, and it provides a psychologically interesting theme or question to form the dream around. Obviously spiritual growth can go horribly wrong as a motive though, as one can see from scandals involving Buddhist teachers. Maybe it can work to create the experience, but it comes with a bit of a penalty, and might not be the best approach. By way of analogy, people can have enjoyable experiences and successful relationships after having become intimate too early in a romantic relationship, but if they have the patience and wisdom to wait until they're both more ready, that's generally better. This is also pretty much the same as my view on drug experimentation, as we have discussed previously.

Think of it this way: How do we share this dream we call life?

Can you go more in-depth how we would do the "work" necessary to induce a shared dream?

I made a new friend and there's already quite some shared aspects in our dreams. I would like to facillitate and build on what we already have and we both are open to the idea.
Besides spiritual growth. There is also the need for self-healing in both of us. Romancy would really not be a problem, so it's perfect.

Spiritual growth may be the most useful motive and I imagine can be quite fun as well. I don't care much for proving to anyone but ourselves. But we do have all the requirements that you asked for.






She has a recurring nightmare that she wants to (she thinks she may find lucidity) fight/solve. Do you think I can hone in on this pattern and help her. If so, how?

Also. A little off-topic. But this is one of the reasons why I believe in shared dreaming and a very interesting report from some peculiarly brave explorers : https://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=1858 . They get straight to the point in the summary.

Dthoughts:

I never had a method or technique, for me its handled by subconscious and either happens or doesn't. Openness is important, not hiding in relation to the other person or in relation to yourself. A topic that interests the subconscious muse part of us important, and addressing the recurring nightmare would qualify for that.

I don't have this kind of experience much now, it has been at least a couple of months. And more generally, I don't have dreams that have an obvious precognitive or instructional component any more, whereas for three or four years I had them every night. I don't know if I've lost the ability, or am just obstructed by circumstances, or have lost interest. Part of what is going on is my 'spiritual growth' challenges are in fairly close harmony with my family and work challenges, so there isn't a lot of drive for stuff to get expressed in dreams, since its all being expressed in waking life.

Hmm. I may have been hoping for a more literal example of what may be used as an anchor to share dreams. But the answers may have already been found.

I must be honest. I have already found clues and found a workspace based on ur theory. Truly, I woulden't be able to figure this out without you If it weren't for you I would still be without a strategy. And while it may have worked in the past, this method seems much more engaging and less prone to fantasy.

Well. In this case. Could you perhaps find the words to explain what happens in a shared dreams. What are the possiblies and limitations of a shared dream in ur experience?

As I experience it, a dream is not a place you go to. A mind creates an impression. Another mind, or another part of the mind, interprets the impression, and that interpretation is a dream. Two people can interpret the same impression, and that's what I call a shared dream, especially when the impression clearly isn't rooted in common external experience. The impression can be strong enough and detailed enough that it almost completely determines the content of the dream, so that the two dreams appear to be the same dream. But more often the impression is more general, and there are different metaphorical expressions of many aspects of the content.

The mind that creates the dream impression tends to lift the subjective identity of the two dreamers, so that one or both may experience themselves as the other, or as the creator of the impression, or more likely some combination of those. The creator is not entirely distinct from the two people, and draws on their thoughts and experiences, so those are shared between them to some extent.

Strong impressions pushed into my mind by the higher mind has been what has been missing for me lately. At first these experiences seemed solitary, just me and the muse. When I started paying more attention to the common element between my thought and other people's thought in the dream impression, that's when the shared element became more predominant. Later, the dreams became less concretely defined by the muse, and more my own metaphorical interpretations. That trend has continued until even the shared element is mostly gone, since it was possible because of the contribution of the muse.

A person might suppose that I should try to develop my own mind to fill the role of the muse, now that I know something of what is possible. But I don't think that's right. It seems like a kind of greed or power lust or megalomania to extend one's personal sense of identity like that. And most other people don't expect it, and need their boundaries to be respected, even while many of them try to grab power from other people externally. I think there's a balance, though it is difficult or maybe even impossible to define that balance rightly in relation to other people who are also out of balance. I think that the former action of the muse, to push fully formed thoughts into people's minds, is itself out of balance in most circumstances, and that is why it has stopped in relation to me. Justice and Mercy, that is a god I think worthy of worship, and that is the common ground I want in relation to any muse. These chosen motives, or agreed upon common values, are also what define the interaction between two dreamers. Their motives don't have to be the same, and the experience is richer if they are not the same, but the overlap or common element provides the space for the dream.

I hope that helps in some way.

Yes, it really does help actually. Damnit, i just realize one my biggest fears. I thought/hoped I woulden't have to face But I do... Since my biggest weakness is in my Sexual Chakra. That is quite obvious. And quite painful to realize that my relationship with my Muse(s) is not specifically good.

While I do believe that you really should develop your own mind. It is never going to replace the muse. Because I believe that the muse has been set in it's place for a good reason. And it's not just one muse! Or perhaps it is. Though, there reside many voices in the waters. I understand your comments was more or less related to the mind in relation to shared aspect. Can you elaborate a little deeper on this one:

I think that the former action of the muse, to push fully formed thoughts into people's minds, is itself out of balance in most circumstances, and that is why it has stopped in relation to me.

I am not specifically interested in the balance aspect of it. Although, it must be noted. But could you give an example of how this can happen? Preferably one from your experience.

I think me and my friend are going for the healing aspect of it all. Since we met under these circumstances. Then it must be faith. I think it really started when she had dreams of "searching for me" at a trainstation. But I also think an element of her genuinely expected me to be there. But I wasn't. Which is sad. IIRC, I had dreams of actually being on a train during that time. Our conversations had one overlap for me and I think she felt that we could fullfill each other karmically. And she mistook that for having feelings of another nature for just a minute. And this aspect became a shared aspect in dreams. With different perspectives on this concept. Or rather, it already was a shared aspect and it bound us together..

Luckily for me, my dreams are finally starting to align with some guiding force that has been missing for most of my life. I noticed for example a dream in which someone was teaching my how to use psychedelics. And I basically antagonized him and pointing logical flaws that I could think of. And I immediately woke up.. Which made me realize that my objections where entirely conjectures based on my inner fears. Needless to say I didn't quite absorb what I was told.
This rather benign nature of stern communication has persisted for the past 2 nights. Amounting in a man-handling this morning that woke me up. Lol. And I basically note quite annoying personality traits from my ego take center-stage in dreams. It prevents the guiding voice from interacting. I have basically more control over dreams then I generally wish to have happen.

Anyway, I am drifting off. Thank you Shadowofwind for taking the time to share useful experiences

Share mind with someone can be very dangerous it need some practice. Without celar intention is just chaos. Bigest problem in start is found source of thought if it is intrernal or extrenal (+create sytem that tag any infoming iformation).Next problem is transmission of things you dont want like negtaive emoction , information about health problems and projection form it to body, belief systems.This need intention and not integrate outside information to main sytem without testing and few other tricks.Usualy if i pisck something negative i can easily delete it but if i have same part unresolvet it start a proces to solve it.
It can be too much at once and is needet to change level of empathy and amplyfication of signal.

Read specifixc thoughts is hard but read bacic concepts of larger areas is relatively easi.Poople usualy dount have any protection beoucause they dont expect some one reading minds.Its best have approval but mout people is easi to hack.Another risk is weak or undefined ego with weak boudari of self and this kind of connection you can absorba ned become everything but you can lost rest of yourself in proces.

Use normal shared dreams is problematic i do some basic expedimnets with shamanic travel and it seems much easier.

Importatnt is the shared realm is not physical word is more like matrix code and above it many layers like liked network of concepts, concept and link description , interpretation (belief system), concept to precept
To get same dream the last layers must be very simular in shamanic trevel is realively easi becuse translaors are similar if you pick different belief sytem/translator you can preceve same information in very different way.

Shamanic reality is also better than dream becouse it is table in eosteric theory it is table place in another dimension and it have something like adress normal dream is more like only in brain and is short .Travel to this hamanic realm is easi it need only adress and intention. I can get there in about 10s during the day but preception is so far very very weak.Still is better for expedimnets tahn normal shared dream becouse you can do amny expedimnets in one day.

If anyone wnat i can reate shamanic reality for him and try show how to get there ( it need about 4h of time ) some automatic mechanizm scan mind and create its representation as shaman realm in astral

Dthoughts,

I don't know how the muse creates such a dream. I had a lucid dream once in which the muse was a grapefruit - sized orb of light contacting my brain, creating the designs for the dreams to be played out later.

I think it is worth keeping in mind that dream teachers aren't any more trustworthy than real life salesmen. They can project a thought of authority, but that doesn't mean that the content of their teaching actually makes sense.

Giving examples can be problematic, because it is usually not clear to me what the other person or spirit intends to be public.

I guess you know that I don't think hallucinogen use is good for people spiritually, so much so that for me it outweighs much of the rest of what we are trying to share and discover. This is one reason I don't post much any more, though not the largest reason.

Anyway, thanks for your thoughts, and best wishes.

Best wishes! (I almost totally put no attention to new year lol)

I guess you know that I don't think hallucinogen use is good for people spiritually, so much so that for me it outweighs much of the rest of what we are trying to share and discover. This is one reason I don't post much any more, though not the largest reason.

I do not see how this is relevant in this discussion. But I can see why this is important to your interaction with this forum. I did make an off-topic submission in this thread. But granted, it was off-topic. I deliberately keep hallucinogenic inspired thinking out of this topic. Although, I can not unlearn what I have learned from it. But this for me is an attempt at spiritual growth without the use of hallucinogens (I have had some rough experiences lately. It doesn't stop me but I have an increased need for sobriety)

Belief systems are the most detrimental force. I believe it makes us easy prey for the more sinister kind of musings. Their motives have nothing to do with growth or evolution and is all about ego-satisfaction and trickery. There seems to be a race/intelligence concerned only with trickery and messing around. I have more sympathy even for the demonic/hateful entities. Atleast their story makes sense to me.

Importatnt is the shared realm is not physical word is more like matrix code and above it many layers like liked network of concepts, concept and link description , interpretation (belief system), concept to precept

This is my experience as well. The dream world is more like a matrix code. Underlying this is perhaps an actual matrix. Or this is a code. But this is how I perceived the dream world. My perception/traveling apparatus is similar to this orb that you speak of. But it represents itself more to me like a sub-atomic particle. One entity/intelligence in the dream presented itself to me as a dream-like subject. But upon waking up looked again like a subatomic particle trying to impart into my electromagnetic field. This one was a little bit fatter than some other particles that I have seen.

.
As to sharing dreams with humans. I think most of my my thoughts are at a halt. However..

I find that in real-life I have problems with establishing deeper relationships with people. Either, I psychologically block people out. Or other people tend to (sub)consciously push me away.
Perhaps in dreams there is a similar mechanism able to block shared dreams from happening. And facillitating this. or working on interpersonal relationships is good homework.

I believe sometimes the dream finds a way/method to connect me with someone. And this triggers the shared aspect of it.

Which leads me to a thought relating to the science. Quantum entanglement being one. However, I know of a more spiritual outview which is less based on theoretical physics and that is the concept of Loosh or Love. Which is basically described (by spiritual gurus) as a binding force.

In Robert Monroe's Outer body travels it is a commodity. It is quite literally Light.

in my belief system Love/loosh is light. It just occurs to me that sharing dreams has similar properties. I think that while we dream we do this inside the light.

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Little more additions in my mind that I can make on the topic at hand . But I will come back if I do and certainly report on succes if me and my friend happen to make progress!

Originally Posted by Chimpertainment

Think of it this way: How do we share this dream we call life?

I don't know if you are joking, but there isn't much evidence suggesting life is a dream and that we are all taking part in a larger shared dream that appears to be far more consistent than our personal ones. What exactly do you mean with this comment? I'm not saying shared dreaming isn't possible btw, but this is one of those off-the-wall comments that makes too many assumptions about the inherent nature of reality. Please, keep the conversation serious. I am interested in the concept of shared dreaming and how it could actually be achieved, but every time someone says something like this and seriously means it (again, sorry if you didn't, but it's hard to tell on the internet), it ruins any kind of credibility your argument has and makes the topic itself sound silly to anyone more skeptical as to whether shared dreaming is possible or not.

Snoop: It seems to me that if we were all a part of a universal shared dream, it would have to be organized in a coherent way, there would have to be rigorous rules that mediate everyone's contributions and determine what the single collective experience is. In other words, it would need a physics, unlike the much looser physics in a personal lucid dream, where things don't have to work in a coherent, collective sense. Also, if you're going to be in a dream all the time, anything the dream is dependent on outside of the dream has to be taken care of, so you don't suffocate or starve while dreaming. That could work if things the mind depends on are also in the dream, if it is more self-contained than a personal dream that way, or else if there are implicit ways for things outside the known aspect of the dream to be taken care of without the conscious attention of the dreamer. In other words, its less like a program running on a computer, and more like the program is also the computer. This seems to me to describe our waking reality, without getting all flaky or New Age about it. Whether we characterize it as being a collective dream seems to me to be largely a matter of semantics. But of course we shouldn't be sloppy and assume that properties of personal dreams all apply to the collective 'dream' also, which I guess is central to the point you were making.

To me, the main point though is that waking life is already a wonderously rich arena for interacting with other people, so in a way it seems silly to try to recreate the same thing in a more limited way while sleeping. I realize that if shared dreaming is possible, this has important implications about the nature of reality. But eventually we reconcile ourselves to that, and it had seemed revolutionary mainly to those of us who shared a particular 'scientific' mindset, which isn't most people. I'm not suggesting that shared dreaming isn't ever of value, just that it can be an evasion, trying to make up a new, smaller video-game-like reality because we've made a mess in the larger reality that we don't want to face. The real, mind-to-mind contact that is possible in a dream is also possible while awake, and in some ways it is better while awake, because its more fully integrated with who we are and what we must do, even though that kind of engagement is also more difficult in many ways.

Maybe that's not what Chimpertainment meant, but that's what it means to me anyway.

Dthoughts:

When I read your comment this morning, it seemed to me you misunderstood where I was coming from with my comment. I was going to speak to that, because it seemed to me that the nature of that misunderstanding is important to our dream communication and development. But now I read your words again, and it looks like you've edited and clarified what you wanted to say, or more likely I was being sloppy when I read it and projected something that wasn't there. Since we're talking about mind melding, who we are and what we let play around with our minds seems relevant to me, because to some degree that's what we're sharing psychically when we reach out to each other, we can't screen it off completely. But I guess that's obvious, and there's no getting away from it for any of us. So never mind what I said about hallucinogens, my comment didn't help the discussion.

Yeah tricky spirits are annoying, I'd always rather go straight at something. Arguing with that sort of thing is like trying to fight a hydra, or feels to me like being attacked by a flock of chickens.

Wasn't joking no.

Most people assume dreams and waking life are different. They are essentially the same. It has been said that dreaming is perception without sensory input. When you get to the root of what a dream is, you begin to realize that waking life is a dream of its own. Dreams are not lesser than waking life nor is waking life lesser than dreaming. They are both states of perception.

So the question is: How do we share with one another in this waking dream?

It seems to me that most people fear sharing. Sharing means vulnerability which means people are more able to hurt you. At a very basic level, a person needs to open themselves on a very basic, emotional level to share with another person. Truly sharing with someone rarely happens but when it does, it creates a connection.

So why should it be any different for dreams? Two people coming together in a shared mental and emotional space. As for the plausibility or viability of shared dreaming, that is still a question in my mind. However the basic requirements for sharing would seem to apply if shared dreaming were possible.

Originally Posted by Chimpertainment

Wasn't joking no.

Most people assume dreams and waking life are different. They are essentially the same. It has been said that dreaming is perception without sensory input. When you get to the root of what a dream is, you begin to realize that waking life is a dream of its own. Dreams are not lesser than waking life nor is waking life lesser than dreaming. They are both states of perception.

So the question is: How do we share with one another in this waking dream?

It seems to me that most people fear sharing. Sharing means vulnerability which means people are more able to hurt you. At a very basic level, a person needs to open themselves on a very basic, emotional level to share with another person. Truly sharing with someone rarely happens but when it does, it creates a connection.

So why should it be any different for dreams? Two people coming together in a shared mental and emotional space. As for the plausibility or viability of shared dreaming, that is still a question in my mind. However the basic requirements for sharing would seem to apply if shared dreaming were possible.

Now what you are saying makes sense. If you like to put it that way, then yes--we experience "reality" the same way we experience a dream. As far as anybody is concerned dreams are reality so long as your memory does not prove to have any major contradictions with the memories of other beings that shared the "same" experience and that there are an apparent, observable and verifiable set of "rules" the logic of the reality follows. Everything we are discussing now is just an assumption, not just the subject content but the idea that you are a real person, I am a real person, and that a reality we all share actually exists. You can only know as much as your mind allows you.

Going off of our assumptions which usually are right (scientific theories, etc.), and that there is an objective reality, then the way we can communicate is simple. The particles of matter that you are composed of and produce an electromagnetic field that results in your consciousness is able to translocate through space-time and due to our awareness, when the particles and matter/what-have-you are near enough in vicinity of each other, we utilize other particles, waves, matter, etc. to produce recognizable patterns of change around us that we can all come to a somewhat mutual understanding on. In dreams, we don't know if other particles or matter are even present, so unless we introduce a way to produce recognizable stimulus to the unconscious mind, and even more some how to master conveying images, concepts, thought forms, etc. then we might actually be talking about something here. However, simply stating that since we're all walking around in "hallucinations" and "delusions" so to speak, that doesn't mean that when we are unconscious we should be able to communicate just as easily.

Some kind of medium for communication has to exist, and in the case now we have space-time. If we can utilize space-time in a way where we can do all of this with devices, I am absolutely confident we could find a way to make shared dreaming possible, or at least some semblance of it. However, with just our minds, I'm not entirely convinced it should be possible "just because". Perhaps in the future something will surface that explains how a pair of people could do it with just the mind, but until our awareness of something we can't currently comprehend or even know exists forms, we are stuck using other particles/waves/matter/whatever that we can observe.

Originally Posted by snoop

However, simply stating that since we're all walking around in "hallucinations" and "delusions" so to speak, that doesn't mean that when we are unconscious we should be able to communicate just as easily.

It is my understanding that shared dreaming occurs when lucid. That would mean we are conscious when this sharing happens. or...