Lucids - Heaven & Hell

[RetepNamenots]

Just something I've been thinking about - it's really weird and I'm probably just mad. I'm a Christian, and I believe that when I die I will be put into heaven or hell. But I believe that instead of being physical places, these are actually just states of mind. For example, heaven would be a state of mind where you could do anything. I started relating these to dreams - such as heaven being a lucid dream, where you could control anything you wanted with ease - or hell, where you had little or no decisions with what happens... Anyway, something even more crazy: What would happen if after death, providing your body was not damaged, (or even if it was, for there are no brain waves after death), if you went into a dreamlike state. Well what would you see if you 'woke up' from this dream? Would you see anything? ================================================= I know that this post is based on a big what-if, and I don't care if nobody replies as I'm not very good at writing down my thoughts!

[juroara]

you should read what a lot of other christians have to say about their own experience of the after life! some claimed they have tasted it near death. others claim a deceased loved one has come to them in dreams or in waking to tell them a little bit about what its like. a state of mind is a nice way of putting it, I often feel thats all hell is. but dreams aren't a state of mind, they are a state of consciousness. In the case of the dream, part of your consciousness is off. Being lucid may turn it back on though. a state of mind is more like your perspective of reality, is the glass half empty or is it half full? does everything have meaning or is everything meaningless? I can see a lot of parrallels between the lucid dream and the beliefs in heaven and hell, but there are a lot of differences as well. The first difference is that you are alone in your lucid dream, its just you in your own little world. Hell may very well be a lonely place as part of its suffering, but the idea of heaven is you are with every other living thing in heaven - its hardly your own world. I describe heaven as a 'where' all life gathers to live in harmony. But its not a 'place' as that 'where' can be anywhere or even any time. Or to loosely quote the bible 'heaven is here on earth but you can not see it'. The second difference is the dreamer is very much attached to their own body, where as the free spirit has no such body. here is a snipet of my beliefs based on...a lot of things! in lucid dreams with good control you can really do whatever you want, including pigging out on cookies and having lots of sex. But heaven isnt a place where all your fantasies and earthly desires are satisfied. When the spirit is seperated from the body the spirit 'forgets' desires that stem directly from the body. The spirit doesnt thirst and it doesnt want food, so it doesnt even miss it. The spirit doesnt desire sex and can even find sex anti-climatic and boring compared to the spiritual side of making love. (Im not saying that heaven is against sex, im just saying its not a desireable) The spirit also 'forgets' random sensations from the body, and we do this in dreams as well. Such as, they forget the sensation of constantly breathing, pressure points when parts of their body rests on something, or sensations and sounds from the stomach as it digests. A spirit who doesnt 'forget' bodily desires can suffer in the next life, and this is where we get more eastern beliefs of suffering. Its not healthy for a spirit to desire food or drinks, and an extreme desire of such can attach the spirit to earth in an unhealthy and unsightly way. Heaven can produce food and drinks for you if thats what it comes to. But these are illusions, or sometimes even delusions to help a person MOVE ON so that they are not spirits attached to earth. You can look at eastern beliefs as well, where the LOWEST level of heaven is one that imitates earth, and it is such a lowly level of heaven the spirit can never find eternal happiness or peace there. In one story I read a group of children who were deceased where in a little playground. They never leave the playground. And everyday in the playground they play one thing, soccer. Everyday they take turns playing soccer. They dont fly around, instead they run or walk using their feet. The children in the playground dont grow up, and adults are not allowed in the playground *to make the children happier apparently*- so they never reunite with their parents who might also be in heaven. The children arent allowed to leave the playground either, not until they let go of their attachment to a mere soccer ball. There is another parallel story of a group of children who also died young. They let go of their earthly desires, they dont care for cookies and milk, and aren't confined to a little playground. Instead the group of children are free to go where ever they please. In the story, an angel is their tour guide, and they visit every country, forests, jungles, and celestial bodies like the moon and every planet known to us. They dont play with human toys, but instead with animals and other things in nature that can interact with spirits. And even interacting with animals we cant without a fear of drowning or being eaten alive. Unlike the children who are forever playing soccer, the children in this story grow and claim to know more about earth than their own parents who are still in flesh. And unlike the children in the other story, they arent in some denial - they can visit their parents who are in flesh without feeling ashamed out of what they are. Although in the story they get frustrated when their parents refer to them as 'dead', as the children claim they are alive, conscious, healthy, and growing every day. Which would you rather do? Play soccer for the next millenium in the same damn playground (BORING) or visit anywhere in the known universe - any time - and interact with any living thing you so desire. the other thing I would like to point out is in story one the children are interacting in a dream like setting, suggesting the soccer ball isnt even 'real'. whereas in the second story the children are intereacting with reality. In a lucid dream our five senses and our experiences dont have to be attached to a human body. We can experience what its like to fly, what its like to breathe underwater, what its like to walk on lava - and we find all these things exciting and fun. How well we use our five senses relates to our own awareness, imagination and how well we use them in the waking world. For example, if you cant touch anything in a lucid dream you may not be paying attention to the sensation of touching in the waking world. Versus the dreams of the blind that are nothing but the sensations of touching, movement and hearing. I think in this respect, the lucid dream is very similiar to life after death experiences, or heaven and hell. In a lot of popular movies, ghosts cant 'feel' becuase they dont have a body. I never understand this logic, if a ghost can't feel becuase it has no body, how does it see if it has no eyes? how does it hear if it has no ears? and how does it think if it has no brain? Thats why I say the spirit is like the ludid dreamer, our sensations are limited by our body and can become limitless when we dettach our senses from the body. Makes for really exciting lucid dreams any how!! as for your question, why not read some near death experiences? since the person experiencing it 'wakes' up I think it would be similiar

[Neo Neo]

well once you die, its a transformation to a higher consciousness, so technically i dont think someone could go back to the physical plane, nor would they want to as stated in the above post . its like you've finished your duties in this life, so you no longer have to come back. and since your consciousness has grown, technically you are also not connected to your body anymore. so even if you wanted to go back, you would not be able to go back, at least thats what i think. i also think our unconscious selves/higher selves choose when we die, because they have more wisdom and know when we've lived here long enough. so on the subject of going back, i do not think it works like that, unless you believe in reincarnation. and with that in mind, its basically ourselves who decide when we die; when we've done all that we can do.

[The Cusp]

You really need to read Heaven and Hell by Emmanuel Swedenborg. http://www.theisticscience.org/books/hh/hh00toc.html I never liked the idea of God deciding who gets into heaven and who goes to hell, but swedenborg say that God accepts everyone, and that people happily cast themselves into the abyss of thier own free will. I just like the sound of that so much better. The hells consist of innumerable levels of like minded sinners, who congregate with others like themselves, and are subjected to thier own quirky sins. I dig the 300 year old swedenborg take on heaven and hell. Plus he gets all his info in the Hypnagogic state. How great is that for someone interested in dreaming?

[Oneiro]

well once you die, its a transformation to a higher consciousness..[/b] How do you know that?

[Merlock]

How do you know that?[/b] It's really rather obvious when you forget all the scientific statements about life being utterly dependant on our physical bodies. Sure, physical life is but not our minds. They are independant of our bodies, our consciousness is what we truly are and our bodies are what we use in this world and life to add physical dimension to our actions. Religious people call our consciousness a "soul", I call it our "mind" but it doesn't matter what you call it, one doesn't cease to exist upon dying.

[Oneiro]

..one doesn't cease to exist upon dying. [/b] But how do you know that? It's pure supposition..

[Merlock]

You say that because your mental state is quite different from mine. You think that you're fully dependant on the world, when in fact, it's the other way around. Anything is possible and nothing can every be impossible if there is a will for it. So you ask "how do you know that?" and I don't answer with a reason, I merely answer "I know".

[Oneiro]

Oh right..

[Neo Neo]

Well lets think about common sense for a minute on consciousness. Right now if you're reading this post, then you are conscious and aware of being awake and yourself. You know you are yourself and you know because you can think and feel emotions. if you questoin your own conscious being, then that is denying that you exist. i guess science has a "logical" explanation as to why and how we have conscoiusness, but science also says that certain activities in the brain create conscoiusness, so in that sense, our consciousness would be created by mechanics in our brain. this can be researched and interpreted to the point that every single aspect in the brain has some link to consciousness. and it is of no doubt that our brain connects us to our bodies, and that the mind and mentallity is necessary to exist. however, there are several first-hand accounts, and personal experiences leading to theories of connections existing beyond the physical; for example connections between family members, or more so of loved ones. ghosts are reported all the time, and if they did not exist, why would so many accounts of them be out there? also, feeling the "energy of the crowd" in a sports game, or any other event, is literally feeling your aura's(energy field) reacting with everyone else's. all these can have scientific explanation, and that explanation can be logical, but sometimes "scientific" is not enough. metaphysics offers logical explanations for the unexplained, but why is it not trusted? because most metaphysic things can be explained, but some cannot be proven, and most subjects trying to be explained are "unusual", and since people are not familier with those concepts, they therefore turn to a more scientific explanation. or psychological explanation. since it is not acceptable in western society, (for those in the US, or the general public) or believable, people are less likely to go with the metaphysical explanation. why is this? would you rather believe your consciousness is based on mechanics and chemicals in your mind? and it is also true that without those chemical reactions technically we would not have consciousness. but, just thinking that conscoiusness alone comes out of our mind, without getting into spirituality of some sort, seems more degrading to me because then we realize that we're just all machines, and consciousness just exists because of our mind. it is logical, it works, and we do not use even half of our processes in the brain, so it is believable. but, at some point science has to give spirituality some merit; and spirituality and metaphysics have already stated and acknowledged the existance of science, and people of metaphysics know that the physical aspect of things cannot be ruled out. rather, spirituality and science work in unison. but science does not acknoledge spirituality AT ALL. and why is that? because it cannot be explained. back to the question of why we dont cease to exist after we die, is because i believe we are not just a product of our mind's mechanic and chemical reactions. i believe and think that our consciousness is something more, and that its not something that can be analyzed or disproven by science.

[Oneiro]

Oh right..

[Burns]

Oneiro, if "oh right" is the only thing you are going to respond with (twice), please refrain from cluttering RetepNamenots' thread. Thanks.

[13redfan]

Which would you rather do? Play soccer for the next millenium in the same damn playground (BORING) or visit anywhere in the known universe - any time - and interact with any living thing you so desire. the other thing I would like to point out is in story one the children are interacting in a dream like setting, suggesting the soccer ball isnt even 'real'. whereas in the second story the children are intereacting with reality. [/b] What? Soccer for all eternity? YAY!!! I can't wait! lol I'm a crazy Liverpool fan so don't mind me. These are all interesting points of view, I'm going to look up the heaven and hell thing. well once you die, its a transformation to a higher consciousness, so technically i dont think someone could go back to the physical plane, nor would they want to as stated in the above post. [/b] As I understand (or believe, or have come to agree with, whatever you wana call it) all things are connected, including Heaven, Hell, life, death, science, metaphysics, the physical plane, the spiritual plane, and all things. So, from my point of view, the higher consciousness is an extension, a better understanding, a more involved, more timeless, more free reality or plane than the physical plane. We are in the physical plane, whether we are dead or not (that's why we see ghosts, deja vu, past lives, near death experiences, AP, etc. etc.) in the same way we are in the metaphysical plane all the time. We just would exist (I hesitate to say live) on a higher level with a greater understanding when we die. Oneiro, if "oh right" is the only thing you are going to respond with (twice), please refrain from cluttering RetepNamenots' thread. Thanks. [/b] Burns, if all you are going to respond with is a reprimand to oneiro, and not post anything useful (noting that his "oh right" is in response to a post) or related to the thread, please refrain from cluttering RetepNamenots' thread. Thanks.

[Merlock]

It is indeed an "extension". We, in our current lives, do not have either ultimate power or ultimate knowledge. Upon ending this life we would gain either some or all knowledge and power (power = ability for action), either just enough to join a new life or to think of whatever else to do to create new experiences. After all, the meaning of existence is really quite simple - we exist for our experiences. However, there is no point in experiences with ultimate knowledge and ultimate power, they aren't new and such, thus a life with limits such as the one we lead now brings new experiences because only limitations can cause new experiences. P.S. 13redfan, if you are going to tell moderators what to do, I wouldn't want to be in your place when they get angry. >.>

[13redfan]

It is indeed an "extension". We, in our current lives, do not have either ultimate power or ultimate knowledge. Upon ending this life we would gain either some or all knowledge and power (power = ability for action), either just enough to join a new life or to think of whatever else to do to create new experiences. After all, the meaning of existence is really quite simple - we exist for our experiences. However, there is no point in experiences with ultimate knowledge and ultimate power, they aren't new and such, thus a life with limits such as the one we lead now brings new experiences because only limitations can cause new experiences. P.S. 13redfan, if you are going to tell moderators what to do, I wouldn't want to be in your place when they get angry. >.> [/b] Hmmm. You're right. Burns, I'm sorry the coffee at work is terrible. That's an interesting point of view Merlock, but limitations causing new experiences confuses me a bit. For example, in an LD there are no limitations. Yet there are loads of new experiences. I know that the limitations are still there in a sense, but we still aren't limited by other more mundane things, such as being able to fly, breathe under water, etc. etc. So we aren't limited by not being able to fly, and in that way we can have the new experience of flying. Right? But you're saying that being limited (in this case flying) helps us have new experiences (flying?). Help me. Please explain a little further

[The Blue Meanie]

Burns, if all you are going to respond with is a reprimand to oneiro, and not post anything useful (noting that his "oh right" is in response to a post) or related to the thread, please refrain from cluttering RetepNamenots' thread. Thanks.[/b] Heh. Heheheheh. Okay, that really WAS kind of funny. But I suppose I should probably say something thread-related so this doesn't go on for ever. Now going back to the original post: I started relating these to dreams - such as heaven being a lucid dream, where you could control anything you wanted with ease - or hell, where you had little or no decisions with what happens...[/b] This is actually an interesting idea. However, ponder this: If you can do anything in hell, this means you could commit sinful acts. Rape angels, or torture fellow occupants in heaven. If you had no free will in hell, then that means you are prohibited from commiting more sinful acts, because you can't do anything. Add to this that in order to enter heaven, one must REGULATE one's own actions and control oneself from commiting sinful acts - in other words, one must limit one's own free will. Likewise, if you accept the proposition that man is an inherantly sinful being, one ends up being punisdhed and sent to hell, for letting their free will and evil urges go unchecked. So, IF what you propose is the case, ReptepNamenots, we get a situation in which people who limit their free will and control themselves onm Earth are "rewarded" by ascension to a plane of existence in which there are no limits on their free will and they are free to commit more sin. Likewise, those who let their free will and sin go unchecked on Earth will be "punished" by a realm in which they can do nothing and have no free will. This situation seems to be absurd. The sinful are placed somewhere they cannot sin, and those who have abstained from sinning are placed somewhere with even more opportunity to sin and less temptation to aspire to further righteousness. Wouldn;t a more sensible outcome be that the sinful are placed in a realm where they can further indulge in their sins and thus punish themselves by their own unending iniquity? And likewise, wouldn't it make more sense for those who have struggled so far to be righteous and abstain from sin, to be placed somewhere where they HAVE no free will and are righteous by default and cannot choose to sin? That way, they would no longer have to struggle and would be in heaven. But if heaven is a place with no free will, it is no heaven. Fuckit, I'd rather go to hell, or reincarnate, than be placed in a sterile environment in which my very nature as a human is stripped away from me, and I become a bland righteous individual who cannot, even if he so chose, be anything but rigidly righteous.

[13redfan]

Heh. Heheheheh. Okay, that really WAS kind of funny. But I suppose I should probably say something thread-related so this doesn't go on for ever. Now going back to the original post: This is actually an interesting idea. However, ponder this: If you can do anything in hell, this means you could commit sinful acts. Rape angels, or torture fellow occupants in heaven. If you had no free will in hell, then that means you are prohibited from commiting more sinful acts, because you can't do anything. Add to this that in order to enter heaven, one must REGULATE one's own actions and control oneself from commiting sinful acts - in other words, one must limit one's own free will. Likewise, if you accept the proposition that man is an inherantly sinful being, one ends up being punisdhed and sent to hell, for letting their free will and evil urges go unchecked. So, IF what you propose is the case, ReptepNamenots, we get a situation in which people who limit their free will and control themselves onm Earth are "rewarded" by ascension to a plane of existence in which there are no limits on their free will and they are free to commit more sin. Likewise, those who let their free will and sin go unchecked on Earth will be "punished" by a realm in which they can do nothing and have no free will. This situation seems to be absurd. The sinful are placed somewhere they cannot sin, and those who have abstained from sinning are placed somewhere with even more opportunity to sin and less temptation to aspire to further righteousness. Wouldn;t a more sensible outcome be that the sinful are placed in a realm where they can further indulge in their sins and thus punish themselves by their own unending iniquity? And likewise, wouldn't it make more sense for those who have struggled so far to be righteous and abstain from sin, to be placed somewhere where they HAVE no free will and are righteous by default and cannot choose to sin? That way, they would no longer have to struggle and would be in heaven. But if heaven is a place with no free will, it is no heaven. Fuckit, I'd rather go to hell, or reincarnate, than be placed in a sterile environment in which my very nature as a human is stripped away from me, and I become a bland righteous individual who cannot, even if he so chose, be anything but rigidly righteous. [/b] It seems to me you're taking a decidedly Christian view on things (Heaven and Hell does seem to show up in Christian faith, but paradise and all the rest exist elsewhere in other religions as well) which is definitely not the right choice. I would think that there are levels of hell (according to Christian philosphy anyway) because one Christian guy once told me that only people who are of the lineage of Adam and have accepted Jesus Christ in their hearts get into heaven. That would mean that me, along with rapists, murderers, paedophiles, thieves, and Manchester United supporters would all go to hell. Even though I help little old ladies across the road, and rapists do more detestable things to them. So for me, it would logically suggest there is more than one level in hell. Ignoring Christianity however, I don't think heaven and hell is a question of sin, more a question of experience and understanding, as man being sinful is a Christian belief, and sin is defined by things other than what you know as right or wrong. I am told that having sex with my girlfriend before marriage is wrong, so is masturbation, and so is coveting my neighbours possessions. I disagree with all of them, as those are your most natural urges (they never had Xbox 360 when they wrote the bible, they don't understand covet) and in moderation sin is not wrong to me if you understand the consequences (disregarding murder and rape and such levels of violence, but you get what I mean)

[Merlock]

13redfan, in a lucid dream we have no power-wise limitations but we are still in this life where our knowledge is also limited. Both knowledge and power must be limited for new experiences because if you have ultimate knowledge you have ultimate power and if you have ultimate power you'll be able to gain ultimate knowledge.

[The Blue Meanie]

It seems to me you're taking a decidedly Christian view on things (Heaven and Hell does seem to show up in Christian faith, but paradise and all the rest exist elsewhere in other religions as well) which is definitely not the right choice.[/b] I'm an atheist. I don'tr believe in heaven or hell or any similar concepts. I was just playing devil's advocate, is all. In my experience, it's futile arguing with christians unless you first adopt their terms and ideas and argue WITHIN their belief framework. Otherwise all you have is an outsider arguing against their belief system. You're better off arguing within their belief system and getting them to change their mind or stir doubt about minor things within their beliefs. The more doubt you stir, the more idealogically weak they are, and have a crisis of faith. THEN you try to pull them out of the whole bloody christianity thing. But you have to sow the ground first.

[13redfan]

13redfan, in a lucid dream we have no power-wise limitations but we are still in this life where our knowledge is also limited. Both knowledge and power must be limited for new experiences because if you have ultimate knowledge you have ultimate power and if you have ultimate power you'll be able to gain ultimate knowledge. [/b] Oh ok I get it, knowledge understanding ok cool. I think you're right, because all the great scientific thinkers so far have been limited in what they are able to work with and understand (thus knowledge) and have come up with remarkable ideas and such. I'm an atheist. I don'tr believe in heaven or hell or any similar concepts. I was just playing devil's advocate, is all. In my experience, it's futile arguing with christians unless you first adopt their terms and ideas and argue WITHIN their belief framework. Otherwise all you have is an outsider arguing against their belief system. You're better off arguing within their belief system and getting them to change their mind or stir doubt about minor things within their beliefs. The more doubt you stir, the more idealogically weak they are, and have a crisis of faith. THEN you try to pull them out of the whole bloody christianity thing. But you have to sow the ground first. [/b] Ah I see. You know, that is completely true. And I think Christians are the most infuriating of them all. Anyway, with atheism, what do you believe about death? That we just end?

[The Blue Meanie]

Anyway, with atheism, what do you believe about death? That we just end?[/b] "Atheism" is merely the belief in the absence of god(s). It doesn't neccessarily exclude belief in some form of afterlife. But yes. I believe nothing awaits mankind save oblivion after corporeal death. I don't believe in the soul, spirit, or any form of spirituality,

[13redfan]

"Atheism" is merely the belief in the absence of god(s). It doesn't neccessarily exclude belief in some form of afterlife. But yes. I believe nothing awaits mankind save oblivion after corporeal death. I don't believe in the soul, spirit, or any form of spirituality, [/b] Oh ok I see. Do you believe in the subconscious? And the conscious? And by oblivion you mean that we simply cease to exist? No ghosts, demons, faery, etc. etc.?

[The Blue Meanie]

Oh ok I see. Do you believe in the subconscious? And the conscious? [/b] Of course! But those conscepts are HARDLY supernatural. They're proven psychological concepts. And by oblivion you mean that we simply cease to exist? No ghosts, demons, faery, etc. etc.?[/b] That's right. Cease to exist, and none of the silly supernatural fairytale crap.

[eNathan]

Just something I've been thinking about - it's really weird and I'm probably just mad. I'm a Christian, and I believe that when I die I will be put into heaven or hell. But I believe that instead of being physical places, these are actually just states of mind. For example, heaven would be a state of mind where you could do anything. I started relating these to dreams - such as heaven being a lucid dream, where you could control anything you wanted with ease - or hell, where you had little or no decisions with what happens... Anyway, something even more crazy: What would happen if after death, providing your body was not damaged, (or even if it was, for there are no brain waves after death), if you went into a dreamlike state. Well what would you see if you 'woke up' from this dream? Would you see anything? ================================================= I know that this post is based on a big what-if, and I don't care if nobody replies as I'm not very good at writing down my thoughts! [/b] If you are really interested in this topic, I strongly suggest that you read about Betty J. Eadie -- she had an experience where she died at the age of 31. She went into the afterlife, and had an experience where she directly talked saw Jesus. I am personally skeptical of all things that arnt strictly in the *Bible* -- but you know that she is of the right spirit when she talks about Jesus Christ and emphesized the love that she felt from him, unlike some others. Here is her website -- http://embracedbythelight.com/index.htm She also has a video, but the book is much more moving. Good luck with you're endeavours! May Christ be with you Edit: Concerning you're question as to the afterlife being a 'dream state', I personally don't think it is. However, there are similarities, I.E., in theory, in both the dream world and the spiritual world, unlike RL, you arnt restricted to the laws of nature, etc. The theory could suffice, I suppose. :yumdumdoodledum:

[13redfan]

That's right. Cease to exist, and none of the silly supernatural fairytale crap. [/b] I'm assuming you believe in OBEs. What about intelligent life elsewhere? What about all the near death experiences, people seeing ghosts, possessions, all that, surely at some point one of them must have some ounce of truth? I mean, scientifically we can't explain what makes proteins form the way they do, why we are alive, or why light has infinite energy. If we can't get to the scientific bottom of things, how can we prove a scientific end with nothing further? Also, what is the conscious and subconscious made of, what is the mind? Is it electrical energy? I'm not saying atheism is wrong (I believe differently) but surely it would be better to live life like you want to get into heaven and there isn't one, than to live life like you don't want to get into heaven and there is?