"The people in your dreams are only products of your imagination"

**gigaschatten** · 12-09-2008 01:58 AM

As it seems I share some of Arne's views.

P.S. I just now read the whole thread. And my reply probably doesn't fit in here as much as I thought, nevertheless I'll leave it below. About Cynthia, I'm not sure what this is about, but I guess I'll follow this a bit. I don't understand what Arne is aiming at, but maybe he's going to explain that another time. It wasn't a smart move though to claim that most here who say they have LDs are liars, that's for sure and explains some of the reactions. Well, you might find my statements below interesting nevertheless. Just try to read it with an open mind.

Here is what I wrote on another forum:

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And you can have meta-physical reactions such as playing a prank on someone while having an OBE!?

Well, yeah, you can float around invisibly, pass solid objects and things like that. If you want, you can grab onto objects though. That sometimes helps if movement's gotten out of control again. Once I wanted to move beyond a group of people so I grabbed their heads and pulled myself forwards. Movement is a lot different without body, a little like a space ship in zero gravity but controlled by your will instead of thrust.

You may also find yourself at a completely different place the next moment. Once I was floatwalking down a street, the next moment I found myself in the ocean under water. Everything is a bit different than plain old waking reality, especially the light. It's hard to explain, one just has to experience it.

I can also manipulate people when out of body. I helped a woman once that got attacked by reaching the head of the attacker. He dropped to his knees unable to move on. But whatever I'm doing, I'm trying to apply the same moral standards I have in life. I don't know if it matters or not, but that way not much can go wrong and after all it matters to me. Sometimes you meet others that can perceive you. I don't know what they are though.

The exit is pretty awkward. When I'm leaving my body, it feels like I'm stretched and twisted. This is a very physical sensation. It can also feel like shockwaves that crawl up from the feet to the head, very intense. After a while, I either just get up, roll sidewards or am catapulted out. Sometimes I directly wake up into a dream (false awakening), doing a reality check to become aware of that or I float away avidly. I don't like closed rooms when out of body so I go outside quickly and see what interesting things I can find. There's always something special happening and if not, you can just ask for it. Oh yes, most of the time my "body" consists of a white immaterial substance that looks like fire. It has a rough humanoid shape but instead of flesh, bones and the other stuff it's made out of white flames, like a plasma. Just recently I started trying to see auras. Those look quite similar, the colors are said to become visible with practice.

But actually there is no way to know if an OBE is more or less real than a dream. It may be just a special kind of dream. On the other hand, what makes reality more real anyway. Just because it is more consistent? No, it's all part of reality and all just a dream. Whatever it is, we have to deal with it one way or another.

What I'm currently interested in are dream characters. Most of them seem plain dumb, but some are rather smart and they are playing with you when you're not lucid. They put you in emotionally stressful situations. Think back, who of you can recall a dream where you have been just relaxing? No one I asked so far can. This may sound a bit crazy, but I have the suspicion, they are harvesting emotional energy from dreamers. That's why "normal" dreams are sequences of scenes that stimulate rather strong emotional reactions in you. In one dream I learned that this doesn't harm us though, we have access to an endless supply of energy. Probably they haven't, so they behave like attention whores. Everytime I get lucid while already dreaming (DILD) I can see their expression grow more and more worried. They don't like it when I become lucid and they even do things to make me lose focus so I become unaware again. The dumb ones do nothing though, I guess they're not much more than scenery objects.

It's the smarter ones that create those scenes and they can access your memory as I have learned. Once I wanted to be polite and asked a dream character for its name. It just looked at me until some name that I thought might fit came into my mind. Guess what, the next moment the DC spoke exactly that name. I laughed and said that was really shallow, the DC smiled sheepishly as if cought in the act. Maybe the smart ones use your own memory to create scenes they want you to become involved with. Yet most of the time, they just don't get it right. I have no other explanation for it, because even things you can recall perfectly may be strangely distorted in dreams. Given the case you are of the opinion that dreams are completely created by your mind in standby mode, it simply makes no sense that memory is distorted in such strange ways if the memory is clear. Realizing that differences is one way to become lucid though, so thanks for it!

Someone I talked to who has been LDing for 30 years told me that there are even various factions (races? cultures?) of dream characters with different names and agendas. Most don't give information freely though, at least not the ones I met.

Of course nothing's for sure, but one has to start somewhere to get somewhere, right?

There are a lot of other things that make it hard to believe that dreams are a product of the mind (unless "mind" is used in a much broader sense). Actually you can even write program code on a dream computer that you can execute and which behaves like on a "real" computer (including bugs). Someone I read about even uses that regularly for prototyping. Once I installed some really cool new game on my dream computer. Instead of me having to configure it, it just let me play and configured itself by studying my behavior. It installed all sorts of ingame content that reflected the way I wanted to play it. The graphics were nice, but it was in bird's eye view like an old rpg... until I found out how to turn the camera. The view I got on my dream monitor then was simply amazing. There was so much detail in it but still perspective shifted perfectly with my mouse movements. Doing things like that you'll probably have to throw out your old view of the world... more than once.

Several artists - some very famous ones - transfer dream content into waking reality. I do not mean they are making art about dreaming, I mean they reproduce paintings they have seen in dreams or make music they have heard in dreams. A few scientists even use(d) the dream environment to precheck experiments before doing them in waking reality. Of course I'm not talking about the blurry show you normal dreamers get.

Face it, most people can't even visualize a rotating peanut at will if their life depends on it. I see a lot standing against the common opinion that dreams are some kind of nightly mind fart. Currently I believe that the mind is disconnected from the body (and its limitations) when the latter sleeps. The mind (spirit) is not created by the brain, but it can dock to it. There are also other ways than sleep to allow or force a disconnection - yes, sure, death is one, but I wasn't thinking of that.

Well, I guess that's some chunk to swallow for you. Most people don't know that lucid dreaming is possible at all - in fact it has been scientifically proven, only very few people care about dreams at all and most dreams are forgotten instantly. How many dreams can you recall per night? How much detail can you recall? Can you recall a dream you had yesterday or a week ago? See, if you're not a lucid dreamer, your nights are probably black holes. Everyone believes to know what dreaming is... yet no one does.

One regular misconception I often hear is that in dreams everything is possible. My personal experience is a bit different. In dreams you have other kinds of freedom to act than in waking reality, but that is not unlimited. There are "tricks" to manifest things, but it's often hard to execute direct control. You may also find dead end situations that virtually render you powerless even though you are lucid. Some more experienced oneironauts claim that they can really do anything, but I have my doubts.

Experiencing is believing. If the stuff I'm writing sounds totally crazy to you, that is because you have had no such experience. It's like a cat watching TV. It does see the funny blurry lights on the 2D screen, but it can't make any sense out of it. The information is there, but no scheme to access it. Either that or I'm totally nuts. Find out yourself. You can learn to lucid dream and to have OBEs. Others did and there's no reason you couldn't. It's actually a lot easier than you think it is. Nevertheless it still takes patience, devotion and motivation.

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And this:

========================================

What is it about Lucid Dreaming, exactly, that convinces you it's not just your own mind playing tricks on you - that it's actually an experience you have the ability to influence?

It's the question if the world is in the mind or the mind is in the world. Yet it makes no difference. Even if the world (including dreams) only exists in the mind, it still exists and is as real or unreal as ever. You can chose to deal with what it shows you or you can chose to ignore it, thinking it's just illusion anyway. But what is not and who could tell? So I'm chosing to deal with it at face-value because I believe this will help me develop. Besides it's much more exciting.

The first says that, even in this Lucid Dream environment, elements from your memory are being pulled to the fore of your conciousness (however distorted). Given that your memories are still influencing Lucid Dreams, is it not possible that you are simply remembering, in your dreams, what you read about other people's LD experiences, and then your memory is recreating that sort of environment for you?

Many things are possible. The question is what is more likely. I find it much more likely that we are able to exist in various dimensions than owning some kind of supercomputer called "brain" that is capable of creating whole bizarre but meaningless worlds with unlimited detail containing a vast number of complex personalities just because it is bored when the body sleeps. If you get deeper into the matter, the commonly accepted explanations - if they exist at all - become harder and harder to believe.

Nevertheless, the officially taught explanations do not make you reconsider being a productive member of society by deciding that pursuing "spirituality" may be more important than consumption of material goods. Our society needs consumers, not monks so it proclaims materialistic religions: The sciences. The scientific method is a materialistic method and leaves out everything it cannot comprehend, which currently is about 99.95 % of the universe (raw estimation

). And just remember that freudian psycho-BS you probably learned at school. That's not even science. Have you ever measured a subconsciousness? It can neither be proven, nor disproven.

I don't say science has no use, it's a tool to create technology, yet it is unable to explain the world, it can only describe it. The method of science has other, much more fatal flaws though. Enough rambling about that. My point is, "science" seems to reflect our zeitgeist but objectively it has no entitlement to be better (more true) than other opinions. Yes, I know, saying such things will trigger hot discussions. That's what memes do (see "memetics").

The second quote, though, shows an awareness of the possible illusion of the whole deal... So i'm really wondering, if you recognise the difficulties of verifying the experience, what is it that is powerful enough about the experience to keep you involved in it?

What is it about waking life that keeps you involved in it? You think it's more real? You think it's not an illusion? We believe to know a lot, that is all.

Does my question make sense? I'm wondering about the spiritual effects this has on you, and about what element it is that gives you faith in it's veracity.

My "faith" is my disbelief in what is commonly accepted. I have had quite a few experiences during the last few years I can't even talk about. Lucid dreaming is just part of it. The pieces simply don't fit into the view of the world I was indoctrinated with before.

Our "knowledge" is not a result of the reality we live in, as I see it, our reality is determined by what we "know". Change the knowledge, change reality. To us, the universe consists of nothing but information. There is no substantial matter in this world. It's an illusion that we call reality. Reality and illusion are one and the same thing. What we call real and what not is simply a reflection of our culture or in other words: What we believe in, we call real, what we don't believe in, we call illusion. Of course that varies with culture and individual and more often than not leads to serious conflicts. Is God real? Is the New World Order conspiracy real?

The term "veracity" is just a construct of the language and as such it can only be verified by the rules of language. There is no value of veracity (true, false, etc.) outside the constraints of language. That does not stop people from claiming to have the only truth though, trying to convince others of it.

I guess that's some chunk of stuff to think about.

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**arne saknussemm** · 12-09-2008 03:59 AM

>>It wasn't a smart move though to claim that most here who say they have LDs are liars, that's for sure and explains some of the reactions. Well, you might find my statements below interesting nevertheless.<<

I said "fibbers" until someone demanded to know what that meant. Then I used the L-word. The fibbers are the people who claim they have LDs every night. But there are actually some very talented dreamers here. Some of them have considerably more raw talent than I did when I started out. And some of them are coachable to boot. It took me 10 years to get to the place I am, mainly because I didn't have a coach. Have you ever read Journey to the Center of the Earth? Arne Saknussemm didn't have a tour guide in that story.

**benTENDO** · 12-09-2008 07:05 AM

I had the weirdest experience with DCs in my dream which I have just had. (I woke up like 2mins ago)

My mum was in my dream and I told her it was a lucid dream, she said "wouldn't that be nice if it was" so I proved it to her. I flew in front of her and then turned my personal gravity upside-down and flew to the roof then came back down. She seemed to just accept it and say "ok so it is" I tried asking her and other characters to see what they could do, but they didn't respond. She was just talking to another DC and ignored me.

I also tried the task that we have been given. Cant say what I did, but it wasn't very successful..

It was a fun LD still, the dream scape and dream scenery that my mind produced were perfectly real and fun to go around in. I rate it 8/10

**DreamQueen** · 12-09-2008 07:07 AM

Originally Posted by arne saknussemm

>>The fibbers are the people who claim they have LDs every night.

How do you know they are fibbing? Is it not possible to have a lucid dream every night??

**Metronome** · 12-09-2008 07:46 AM

well, from a philosophical standpoint I couldn't really say you could discount them as conscious entities... after all, what are other people but dream characters in their own right? You think that's air you're breathing now? Dream characters to me are as real as other people, the only difference is you are not constrained in your conduct toward them by physical or social laws. After all we don't much care what we do to consciousnesses such as those of chickens or cows, so why should we care about a dream character anyway? I mean logically, you don't have to really care about what happens to anyone else at all. You'll never really be able to feel their pain, only relate to it in a vicarious way that at best invokes feelings of empathy. I don't know. Whatever it's a dream. Get Money. Fuck Bitches.

**spaceexplorer** · 12-09-2008 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by arne saknussemm

>>What interests me more is that on my second attempt at the task I was able to manipulate the response by my own expectation, which dosn't seem to point towards independence on the DCs part (which was the original point was it not?)<<

Really? Well, if you "ask a question" and "will a certain response," then you didn't really ask a question, did you? You just sought cooperation and got it, although you didn't get cooperation when you asked the question the first time. You got an actual reply then.

And you've assumed that the first answer you got invalidated the task somehow. But it didn't.

Someone has remarked to me that if "Cynthia Gonzalez" or any other DC really wanted to help you, they'd help you every time you went to sleep, wouldn't they?

That is correct. They would.

Ok I have a simple tast for you Arne, that will very simply demonstrate if your Cynthia character has any genuine existence.
I will call upon Cynthia in a dream and I shall give her the password to a user account (i will create) on dreamviews. All you have to do is ask Cynthia for the password, I'll make it clear to her that it is fine to give it to you, then all you have to do is use that password to log into the account and post a message here.

If you agree i'll provide you with the username, all you'll have to do next is get the password from Cynthia. I think we can all agree that if she is a genuine entity that can be contacted by any of us, then this should be perfectly possible. Still, I'm sure there is some kind of feeble metaphysical excuse you can come up with to avoid the task and save face.

If not and you wish to prove your point in a very simple and convincing test, then let me know and i'll create the account. Please understand I have no investment in you being wrong, in fact I would be very happy if you can prove yourself correct, I'll become a very apologetic and loyal student of yourself if so. Seriously, no sarcasm here at all. I would love these things to be true, but I'd expect at the very least that a simple test like this can be completed as evidence.

**Placebo** · 12-09-2008 01:32 PM

Cynthia does not wish to participate in such frivolity

**Snowy Egypt** · 12-09-2008 01:33 PM

RED FLAG!

Um, not to be a downer, but unless you tell the staff first, making another account is a bad idea. I'm just thinking about you; I wouldn't want you to get banned for making another account when an infraction like making a duplicate account or an alt isn't your intention.

Does that make sense?

**moonshine** · 12-09-2008 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by arne saknussemm

>> It took me 10 years to get to the place I am

And if you don't stop taking what ever it is your on, its going to be another 10 years before they let you back out.

**Placebo** · 12-09-2008 04:10 PM

Originally Posted by Snowy Egypt

RED FLAG!

Um, not to be a downer, but unless you tell the staff first, making another account is a bad idea. I'm just thinking about you; I wouldn't want you to get banned for making another account when an infraction like making a duplicate account or an alt isn't your intention.

Does that make sense?

Good point. But if it's a temporary one, just for testing this little theory, I don't mind making sure the account is de-activated afterwards.

**spaceexplorer** · 12-09-2008 04:51 PM

Originally Posted by Placebo

Good point. But if it's a temporary one, just for testing this little theory, I don't mind making sure the account is de-activated afterwards.

Thanks Placebo,
If another account is a problem, i'll set up a gmail account, with a specific message left in the inbox. Which Arne can post in here once he's got the password. I'll then allow everyone access to the account so they can see the original email message as proof.

Still an account on here would be easier.

I think it's a fair test.

**Abra** · 12-09-2008 05:19 PM

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

And is there only one Cynthia Gonzalez in dreamland?

She has dopplegangers, so that Arne can claim that if you control Cynthia Gonzalez, you didn't really complete the task, because you weren't controlling the real one.

I'm reluctant to actually do the task, because if I provide evidence against Arne's beliefs, he will just twist it so that I'm wrong and he's right.

**spaceexplorer** · 12-09-2008 06:47 PM

Originally Posted by Abra

She has dopplegangers, so that Arne can claim that if you control Cynthia Gonzalez, you didn't really complete the task, because you weren't controlling the real one.

I'm reluctant to actually do the task, because if I provide evidence against Arne's beliefs, he will just twist it so that I'm wrong and he's right.

Well let Arne complete my tast. Its much easier, will prove the same thing - only far more convincingly, and requires only his and my own participation. Of course, others are welcome to get the password off "Cynthia" too if they wish.
I'll set the task up once Arne agrees.

**Tarsier** · 12-09-2008 07:32 PM

Who is this guy anyway? Wasn't his first thread on here trying to disprove lucid dreaming? Is he still going on about that or is it something else now? -_-

**moonshine** · 12-09-2008 08:02 PM

Its funny the lengths reasonable people will go to to disprove irrational beliefs.
I'm afraid that even attempting to engage Arne in rational discussion gives him more credibility that his cryptic messiah posturing deserves.

**Oneiro** · 12-09-2008 08:06 PM

I'd just like to say that I feel that certain posters here are doing nothing but trolling. It's pretty obvious who they are.. and yet they remain unmoderated. I think this shows an unacceptable level of bias from the Mods.. they seem generally not to like Arne, and whilst threatening him with censure, they do nothing to stop others on here of behaving in a way which would bring others censure, if the Mods did their job in an unbiased fashion, that is. Trolling/Ad Hominems etc. are supposedly forbidden, but some favoured posters just seem to get away with it. I can't think why. These people have absolutely nothing concrete to add to a sober discussion, and I wish that they would just give it up.

As for spacexplorer's task, IMO it's far more difficult than Arne's.

You see.. first and foremost, you've gotta find the right "Cynthia Gonzalez". Now.. you'll find plenty of DCs who will answer to the name, but believe me, most of them will have adopted it on the spot.

Now spaceexplorer.. you think that you're pretty hot shit, right? LDing-wise? Right?

So prove it.

**DreamQueen** · 12-09-2008 08:15 PM

Omg... Arne, why are you so consumed with the notion that people are lying about having lucid dreams? Here is a link to a thread over two years old whereby you claim that less than 1% of people who claim to have LDs actually have them and everyone else is "bullshitting". http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=26245

And there are many more threads you've started like that over the past two years. Just let it go dude. It's bordering on paranoia.

Go have some fun :-)

**Oneiro** · 12-09-2008 08:25 PM

I'd agree with the sentiment, but not with the percentage- more like 0.000001 percent, I'd say.

**spaceexplorer** · 12-09-2008 08:29 PM

Originally Posted by Oneiro

I'd just like to say that I feel that certain posters here are doing nothing but trolling. It's pretty obvious who they are.. and yet they remain unmoderated. I think this shows an unacceptable level of bias from the Mods.. they seem generally not to like Arne, and whilst threatening him with censure, they do nothing to stop others on here of behaving in a way which would bring others censure, if the Mods did their job in an unbiased fashion, that is. Trolling/Ad Hominems etc. are supposedly forbidden, but some favoured posters just seem to get away with it. I can't think why. These people have absolutely nothing concrete to add to a sober discussion, and I wish that they would just give it up.

As for spacexplorer's task, IMO it's far more difficult than Arne's.

You see.. first and foremost, you've gotta find the right "Cynthia Gonzalez". Now.. you'll find plenty of DCs who will answer to the name, but believe me, most of them will have adopted it on the spot.

Now spaceexplorer.. you think that you're pretty hot shit, right? LDing-wise? Right?

So prove it.

The argument you make about my task is even more apparent in Arnes task surely? If not why not?
It makes more sense for Arne to prove his statements by one simple test, than for an entire forum to take part in a task HE designed, HE is in complete control over, HE alone knows the results to... and all to prove something that HE has decided is true!!!

If i told you I could fly, which would make more sense to you...
Me simply flying in front of you to prove it.
Or me giving you mystical instructions on how to learn to fly, telling you to follow them and to come back when you've achived the skill?
Sure the latter may be more useful IF THE STATEMENT IS TRUE,
however most people would like some kind of basic proof before wasting thier time on something that lets face it is incredibly unlikely.

As for thinking im pretty "hot shit", to be honest I don't see it as an ego trip thing to prove one way or the other. I can lucid dream to a pretty reasonable level for my own needs. I see it as no badge of honour or anything like that. I don't need to prove it to anyone, because it serves no one any purpose other than myself. I neither wish to teach others how to do it, nor do i wish to claim to be some kind of Lucid Dream expert, so why would I wish to prove it to anyone?. I do it because i find it fascinating and a useful tool for my own life. I come to dreamviews to discuss the subject with like minded people, and to hopefully learn skills to improve my abilities.
I do not subscribe to the opinion of some people here that your ability to lucid dream, or dream frequency is some kind of rank, I find that all rather childish and something I'd hope i'd have grown out of by my age.

**spaceexplorer** · 12-09-2008 08:36 PM

Originally Posted by Oneiro

I'd agree with the sentiment, but not with the percentage- more like 0.000001 percent, I'd say.

To be honest, I think that attitude is actually the attitiude of people who cant have them. It's a jealousy thing. Why would anyone bother lying?
I'm sure some people exagerate thier abilities, especially the younger dreamers among us (I know as I used to be one of them a long time ago)
but why would anyone make it up?

Generally I think there is a simple test to this,
those who are trying to come across as experts, or treat the whole subject as a way of gaining rank or looking important... are the ones most likely to be exagerating or even possibly making things up.
Those of us who just want to discuss the subject, and are perfectly willing to admit that sometimes, you just have a dry patch... well those of us are just your genuine lucid dream enthusiasts.

**DreamQueen** · 12-09-2008 08:41 PM

Nicely summarised, spaceexplorer :-)

**arne saknussemm** · 12-09-2008 09:14 PM

>>Someone has remarked to me that if "Cynthia Gonzalez" or any other DC really wanted to help you, they'd help you every time you went to sleep, wouldn't they?

That is correct. They would.<<

Now Space Explorer, I know you saw the above quote, because you quoted it yourself. That's why your task won't work. Anything you can think of about this, I thought about and tried it a long time ago. And there was nothing at all random about the task I assigned, although you assumed that it was something slapdash. Anyway I think you've already done enough damage to the task by posting your results after I asked you not to. Don't you?

>>I'd just like to say that I feel that certain posters here are doing nothing but trolling. It's pretty obvious who they are.. and yet they remain unmoderated. I think this shows an unacceptable level of bias from the Mods.. they seem generally not to like Arne, and whilst threatening him with censure, they do nothing to stop others on here of behaving in a way which would bring others censure, if the Mods did their job in an unbiased fashion, that is.<<

That's right, Oneiro. Go back and read the trolling that Moonshine alone has done in just this thread. I know I wouldn't have been allowed to get away with one bit of that.

>>Omg... Arne, why are you so consumed with the notion that people are lying about having lucid dreams? Here is a link to a thread over two years old whereby you claim that less than 1% of people who claim to have LDs actually have them and everyone else is "bullshitting".<<

I realize now that that was a lowball estimate. It's more like three or four percent. But considering how many members this site has, that actually comes to quite a few people.

>>Who is this guy anyway? Wasn't his first thread on here trying to disprove lucid dreaming? Is he still going on about that or is it something else now?<<

Tarsier, if you're going to say things about me, could you at least say things that are true? Is that asking too much?

**spaceexplorer** · 12-09-2008 09:22 PM

Originally Posted by arne saknussemm

>>Someone has remarked to me that if "Cynthia Gonzalez" or any other DC really wanted to help you, they'd help you every time you went to sleep, wouldn't they?

That is correct. They would.<<

Now Space Explorer, I know you saw the above quote, because you quoted it yourself. That's why your task won't work. Anything you can think of about this, I thought about and tried it a long time ago.

That makes no sense whatsoever.
Seriously, there is no logic to what you are saying.
Please explain yourself. To me, and I mean this with no offence intended, that statement is simply jibberish written in a confident tone.
The only reason i'm pointing this out, is because I can't argue a point that makes no sense.

Are you implying that a dream character would NEVER help you out?
So there is no point trying to ask them to?

Also, I'm not sure i'd draw the same conclusion that a dream character would help you out each time you went to sleep.
I'd help my friends out, when I am able to, but that is not all the time by any means. Why would it be different for a dream character?

**arne saknussemm** · 12-09-2008 09:55 PM

If they wanted to help you, they'd help you without being sought out and asked, wouldn't they?

Is that clear enough?

**Licity** · 12-09-2008 11:13 PM

Originally Posted by arne saknussemm

If they wanted to help you, they'd help you without being sought out and asked, wouldn't they?

Is that clear enough?

If I walk down the street and see a representative from the Salvation Army, I would donate some money, although I'm not going to scout out my entire town looking for them. There are other charities I would prefer to give to.

Does that mean I am not helping because I am not helping without being asked? ("asked" not being literal here, the person ringing the bell is the request)

Thread: "The people in your dreams are only products of your imagination"

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