Thread: Supernatural Discussion

Originally Posted by Scatterbrain

Sigh...

Again with the close minded card, it's getting old. It's not close minded to not believe in an extraordinary claim which has no evidence supporting it.

Since you chose to ignore my point, I'll just repeat it:

- No force besides those core 4 has been detected.
- No interaction besides those caused by the core 4 have been observed.
- It's completely irrelevant to this discussion if the laws of physics are different in some other part of the universe, we're not going there anytime soon.

Since you chose to ignore my point, I'll just repeat it.

-50 something years ago only 2 forces were known.
-A lot of things haven't been observed, does that mean they don't exist?
- It's not completely irrelevant to this discussion, the universe we all reside in it. And if other energies exist in the universe it should be studied and thought about whether or not we are going there anytime soon.

Global warming isn't gonna kill the planet any time soon, so we should just ignore it?

A hurricane that could flood out parts of the United States is coming, but not anytime soon. No worries.

My claim is not extraordinary, unless you consider the possibility for more information to be available to the human experience than what we already know to be as such. Which in my world is close-minded, I have no proof their is more energy forces, or whether they are the only ones.

Sigh. Off subject, but on subject.

Their could be alternative fuel sources, but we haven't discovered them yet. OMG, What an extraordinary claim!

Originally Posted by DeathCell

Since you chose to ignore my point, I'll just repeat it.

Facepalm...

-50 something years ago only 2 forces were known.

Irrelevant. Ignored my post:

Originally Posted by Scatterbrain

- No force besides those core 4 has been detected.
- No interaction besides those caused by the core 4 have been observed.

(for those that actually understand physics, yes I do realize those 2 statements above basically mean the same thing, I just didn't notice when I wrote it.)

- A lot of things haven't been observed, does that mean they don't exist?

Again, ignored my post:

Originally Posted by Scatterbrain

To quote Sagan: "What counts is not what sounds plausible, not what we'd like to believe, not what one or two witnesses claim, but only what is supported by hard evidence, rigorously and skeptically examined. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

- It's not completely irrelevant to this discussion, the universe we all reside in it. And if other energies exist in the universe it should be studied and thought about whether or not we are going there anytime soon.

Again, ignored my post:

Originally Posted by Scatterbrain

You're saying that on other parts of the universe there may exist other forces, but that's completely irrelevant because there's no humans there to perform the supposed supernatural abilities.

Global warming isn't gonna kill the planet any time soon, so we should just ignore it?

Irrelevant. There's evidence global warming is happening, regardless of it's cause.

A hurricane that could flood out parts of the United States is coming, but not anytime soon. No worries.

Irrelevant. In that scenario there's evidence the hurricane is coming.

My claim is not extraordinary, unless you consider the possibility for more information to be available to the human experience than what we already know to be as such. Which in my world is close-minded, I have no proof their is more energy forces, or whether they are the only ones.

Supernatural is by definition extraordinary, so are the claims of it's existence.

The only ones limiting human development are those that try to circumvent the scientific method, claiming certain specific phenomena are real.

Sigh. Off subject, but on subject.

Paradoxical and irrelevant.

Their could be alternative fuel sources, but we haven't discovered them yet. OMG, What an extraordinary claim!

Wrong. Energy sources exist, we wouldn't be here if they didn't. It's nothing supernatural or extraordinary at all.

Guys, keep the debate friendly

lol I think DeathCell point was "Some years ago, making claims that airplaines are real was an extraordinary claim, but time changes"
Also, with technology DS is getting close, so I don't see why any other "supernatural" things wouldn't also be possible in the future, maybe not the way people want them to, but meh <.<
I still don't see why believing only what you see is close-minded tough, whats a fact for some is not a fact for others.
Excepting my craziness, thats a fact everywhere.

there are not only four types of forces observed, you (post starter and anyone siding with him on this point) may want to read up on Dark Energy. and no, I dont mean dark in an evil sense. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_cosmology

Originally Posted by Walms

lol I think DeathCell point was "Some years ago, making claims that airplaines are real was an extraordinary claim, but time changes"

Making a claim that a machine can fly would definitely have been an extraordinary one in 1900, and so extraordinary evidence was called for. This evidence was delivered though, when aeroplanes started flying around for everyone to see. And not just my neighbour's daughter's best friend has a blurry photograph of one. Watching Orville and Wilbur Wright fly their Wright Flyer was the extraordinary evidence.

Originally Posted by tkdyo

there are not only four types of forces observed, you (post starter and anyone siding with him on this point) may want to read up on Dark Energy. and no, I dont mean dark in an evil sense. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_cosmology

While there is obviously a lot still to be discovered about dark energy, I think the thing to remember is that it is an energy not a force. Like kinetic energy, or thermal energy. Communication between the minds of two people like is being proposed in dream sharing would require energy, but more importantly it would also require a force for the transmission of that energy.

Originally Posted by DeathCell

Since you chose to ignore my point, I'll just repeat it.

-50 something years ago only 2 forces were known.
-A lot of things haven't been observed, does that mean they don't exist?
- It's not completely irrelevant to this discussion, the universe we all reside in it. And if other energies exist in the universe it should be studied and thought about whether or not we are going there anytime soon.

When only two forces were known, scientist wouldn't have told you that they know all the forces that exist in the universe, as they wouldn't have had a complete model for how things work. Now they do, and they can tell you that there are only four.

We can say that these are the only forces in the universe, but even if we were to concede you point that we haven't checked on the other side of the universe (and I definitely do not concede this), then as Scatterbrain points out, this is irrelevant to what we are discussing. Even if a new, unknown force exists 2 billion lightyears away, if it doesn't exist here, it certainly can't be the mechanism for dream sharing can it?

Originally Posted by DeathCell

Global warming isn't gonna kill the planet any time soon, so we should just ignore it?

A hurricane that could flood out parts of the United States is coming, but not anytime soon. No worries.

My claim is not extraordinary, unless you consider the possibility for more information to be available to the human experience than what we already know to be as such. Which in my world is close-minded, I have no proof their is more energy forces, or whether they are the only ones.

Sigh. Off subject, but on subject.

Their could be alternative fuel sources, but we haven't discovered them yet. OMG, What an extraordinary claim!

I don't think your analogy really fits. I'm not sure what you are trying to say. If your point you are arguing against is that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, then the examples you choose aren't too extraordinary, and there is sufficient evidence for us not to rule out their possibility, or say that they are likely to occur.

We've seen hurricanes in the US before, and have no reason to expect we won't see them again. We have evidence for them, we know they happen. The claim that there could be alternative fuel sources is not extraordinary. Why do you say that it is?

The claim that dreamsharing is possible is, as Scatterbrain points out, extraordinary, because it goes against everything we know about physics and the human brain. It also has never been observed in controlled conditions.

Oh and Scatterbrain, thanks for joining in!

While there may be only 4 PHYSICAL forces, scientists have no way yet to measure ASTRAL forces/energies.

Originally Posted by Neeros

While there may be only 4 PHYSICAL forces, scientists have no way yet to measure ASTRAL forces/energies.

Umm. I don't really know what to say. "ASTRAL forces/energies" must be physical.

What do you mean?

Originally Posted by jatoo

While there is obviously a lot still to be discovered about dark energy, I think the thing to remember is that it is an energy not a force. Like kinetic energy, or thermal energy. Communication between the minds of two people like is being proposed in dream sharing would require energy, but more importantly it would also require a force for the transmission of that energy.

right, but the article says they use this energy to explain forces that are observed to be exerted on celestial bodies that are abnormal with the current model...could further research lead to another force unique to this energy?

Originally Posted by tkdyo

right, but the article says they use this energy to explain forces that are observed to be exerted on celestial bodies that are abnormal with the current model...could further research lead to another force unique to this energy?

Cutting to the chase, are you suggesting that dark energy is responsible for dreamsharing? If you are, just imaging saying that to the physicists who research dark energy and imagine their response.

If not, then this is irrelevant.

The abnormality you are talking about doesn't imply another force in the universe. The reason that physicists believe dark matter might exist is because of things like microwave energy, and gravitational pulls, that aren't currently accounted for. These forces (microwave which is electromagnetic, and gravitation) are of the four known by scientists, which we have been discussing.

Originally Posted by Neeros

While there may be only 4 PHYSICAL forces, scientists have no way yet to measure ASTRAL forces/energies.

If those "astral forces" affect our world in such a meaningful way as to allow supernatural phenomena to happen, the interactions should be easy to detect.

Show me the proof.

lol everyone arguing the same point "believe what I see"
I don't get it tough, why ask for proof that will be called fake no matter what? Unless, of course, someone took enough time to make proof for the proof, but thats kinda like the "reality" game <.<

Originally Posted by jatoo

Cutting to the chase, are you suggesting that dark energy is responsible for dreamsharing? If you are, just imaging saying that to the physicists who research dark energy and imagine their response.

If not, then this is irrelevant.

The abnormality you are talking about doesn't imply another force in the universe. The reason that physicists believe dark matter might exist is because of things like microwave energy, and gravitational pulls, that aren't currently accounted for. These forces (microwave which is electromagnetic, and gravitation) are of the four known by scientists, which we have been discussing.

No Im not implying this, that would be asinine. Im simply stating we do not have a complete model yet. So it is relevant. Especially if these effects on waves (which carry energy) are not accounted for.

Originally Posted by Walms

lol everyone arguing the same point "believe what I see"
I don't get it tough, why ask for proof that will be called fake no matter what? Unless, of course, someone took enough time to make proof for the proof, but thats kinda like the "reality" game <.<

That's a very crappy excuse for not providing proof.

Actually it's probably the best excuse there is for this subject.

It may be the best one they have, but it's no good.

Originally Posted by Scatterbrain

It may be the best one they have, but it's no good.

If you want proof that will ultimately satifiy you personally I suggest you try out some of these things for yourself. Energy manipulation is not a hard thing to learn if you give it good honest effort.

Originally Posted by Scatterbrain

Irrelevant. Ignored my post:





Again, ignored my post:






Again, ignored my post:






Irrelevant. There's evidence global warming is happening, regardless of it's cause.





Irrelevant. In that scenario there's evidence the hurricane is coming.





Supernatural is by definition extraordinary, so are the claims of it's existence.

The only ones limiting human development are those that try to circumvent the scientific method, claiming certain specific phenomena are real.





Paradoxical and irrelevant.





Wrong. Energy sources exist, we wouldn't be here if they didn't. It's nothing supernatural or extraordinary at all.

You seem to think I ignored your post when in all actuality, I disagree with your view. You seem to think whats known in certain subjects is certainly all that exists, I on the other hand accept that other forces could exist. Far away from here, and maybe within your own body. I'll leave those studies to someone else, till then I'll be foolishly predicting the future through a paradoxical anomaly while you live in a world of logic perception.

Making a claim that a machine can fly would definitely have been an extraordinary one in 1900, and so extraordinary evidence was called for. This evidence was delivered though, when aeroplanes started flying around for everyone to see. And not just my neighbour's daughter's best friend has a blurry photograph of one. Watching Orville and Wilbur Wright fly their Wright Flyer was the extraordinary evidence.

The world was believed to be flat at one time, it was impossible to sway the general public. Or prove it to them for that matter, especially with the powers in charge. Time hasn't changed that much.

While there is obviously a lot still to be discovered about dark energy, I think the thing to remember is that it is an energy not a force. Like kinetic energy, or thermal energy. Communication between the minds of two people like is being proposed in dream sharing would require energy, but more importantly it would also require a force for the transmission of that energy.

Energy, force, seems to be a jumble of wordology. Use the force luke.

When only two forces were known, scientist wouldn't have told you that they know all the forces that exist in the universe, as they wouldn't have had a complete model for how things work. Now they do, and they can tell you that there are only four.

We can say that these are the only forces in the universe, but even if we were to concede you point that we haven't checked on the other side of the universe (and I definitely do not concede this), then as Scatterbrain points out, this is irrelevant to what we are discussing. Even if a new, unknown force exists 2 billion lightyears away, if it doesn't exist here, it certainly can't be the mechanism for dream sharing can it?

See that is where you are wrong, I'd be willing to bet they said only two forces exist because that was the information they had. Or did they say, we got two knowns and two unknowns that we are working on.. Other forces could be left undiscovered in our backyard, or billions of miles away.

I didn't say anything was a mechanism for dream sharing, I only said other forces might exist in our galaxy, or simply in the universe. In our bodies, in our souls, who knows. To simply assume because four have been discovered that nothing else exists or it's irrelevant because of distance. I on the other hand look at distance as nothing but an illusion in a time-space continuum. To each his own, some are destined to be open some closed. Some logical, some imaginative. Some both.

Once again I was not claiming anything about mechanisms of dream sharing.

I don't think your analogy really fits. I'm not sure what you are trying to say. If your point you are arguing against is that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, then the examples you choose aren't too extraordinary, and there is sufficient evidence for us not to rule out their possibility, or say that they are likely to occur.

We've seen hurricanes in the US before, and have no reason to expect we won't see them again. We have evidence for them, we know they happen. The claim that there could be alternative fuel sources is not extraordinary. Why do you say that it is?

The claim that dreamsharing is possible is, as Scatterbrain points out, extraordinary, because it goes against everything we know about physics and the human brain. It also has never been observed in controlled conditions.

My analogy was quite simple, close minded thoughts like something isn't close so it doesn't matter just holds back our race. It's not gonna help science learn anything, assuming the impossible and you will find the impossible.

I didn't say hurricanes were extraordinary, I said not preparing for them or just choosing not to believe in them because of a lack of proof would be. Yes, we all know hurricanes exist.

Live in a world defined by what we already know, instead of defining the future with the unknown. I won't.

Originally Posted by Scatterbrain

- It's completely irrelevant to this discussion if the laws of physics are different in some other part of the universe, we're not going there anytime soon.

If we can observe distant parts of the universe (which we can) then it is relevant.

Originally Posted by Scatterbrain

- No force besides those core 4 has been detected.
- No interaction besides those caused by the core 4 have been observed.

I'd like to propose an unknown force. What is it that shapes every single snow flake into a six sided hexagon, as well as the craters on the moon and other planets/moons into perfect hexagons? (Detailed moon image here: http://www.rc-astro.com/photo/id1018_big.html)

This can't just happen for no reason, and if it can be explained with the current known 4 forces, I'd love to hear the explanation. Unfortunately most of the close minded people refuse to even let themselves see the obvious hexagonal craters on the moon, which is mind boggling, since it's so obvious.

Originally Posted by Neeros

If you want proof that will ultimately satifiy you personally I suggest you try out some of these things for yourself. Energy manipulation is not a hard thing to learn if you give it good honest effort.

Energy manipulation is bullshit. "Ohh I feel my hands warm", oh really? We're in a LD forum, everyone knows how our perceptions can be manipulated.

I did try telekinesis at various times, with no results. If abilities like these are real, people able to to them should have no trouble making a demonstration.

Originally Posted by DeathCell

You seem to think I ignored your post when in all actuality, I disagree with your view. You seem to think whats known in certain subjects is certainly all that exists, I on the other hand accept that other forces could exist. Far away from here, and maybe within your own body. I'll leave those studies to someone else, till then I'll be foolishly predicting the future through a paradoxical anomaly while you live in a world of logic perception.

That we disagree is obvious since we're arguing. But the fact is you either ignored my post or failed to realise the flaws and irrelevance of your points.

I guess I should just be happy that this time you repeated your empty arguments succinctly.

Originally Posted by The Cusp

If we can observe distant parts of the universe (which we can) then it is relevant.

It was being argued that supernatural phenomena are possible HERE, on EARTH. Then, after it was mentioned that the 4 fundamental forces don't support such phenomena, it was argued that the laws of physic may be different somewhere else in the universe. ("somewhere else" as in "NOT IN THE PLACE WHERE YOU WERE ARGUING SUPERNATURAL EVENTS HAPPEN")

So no, it isn't relevant at all.

Originally Posted by The Cusp

I'd like to propose an unknown force. What is it that shapes every single snow flake into a six sided hexagon, as well as the craters on the moon and other planets/moons into perfect hexagons? (Detailed moon image here: http://www.rc-astro.com/photo/id1018_big.html)

This can't just happen for no reason, and if it can be explained with the current known 4 forces, I'd love to hear the explanation. Unfortunately most of the close minded people refuse to even let themselves see the obvious hexagonal craters on the moon, which is mind boggling, since it's so obvious.

Gee, I thought a perfect hexagon looked like this:


I can't even see crappy hexagons in the moon. At most there's some craters with "edges".

But let's close our eyes for a second and imagine those craters are indeed hexagonal. Now I'd like you to explain to me why the lack of an explanation for hexagonal craters on the moon proves the existence of an unknown force, and how that unknown force proves the existence of any supernatural abilities. (like telekinesis, energy manipulation, or maybe that dreamstalker roleplaying thing)

Originally Posted by Scatterbrain

That we disagree is obvious since we're arguing. But the fact is you either ignored my post or failed to realise the flaws and irrelevance of your points.

I guess I should just be happy that this time you repeated your empty arguments succinctly.

Didn't ignore your post once again, not agreeing with you because a Physics book says their are only four forces in the world doesn't mean I'm ignoring. It means I choose not to buy into your sentiments on the situation. Their is nothing flawed about what I said, I neither know for a fact if or if not more forces exist.

I did try telekinesis at various times, with no results. If abilities like these are real, people able to to them should have no trouble making a demonstration.

Trying something for 5 minutes doesn't mean you put in effort. I could try to learn a very advanced form of robotics engineering and fail if I only spent a couple of minutes on it. I personally know no one capable of Telekinesis, whether it exists or not I'm unsure. On the other hand I've had visions of the future on multiple occasions.

It was being argued that supernatural phenomena are possible HERE, on EARTH. Then, after it was mentioned that the 4 fundamental forces don't support such phenomena, it was argued that the laws of physic may be different somewhere else in the universe. ("somewhere else" as in "NOT IN THE PLACE WHERE YOU WERE ARGUING SUPERNATURAL EVENTS HAPPEN")

So no, it isn't relevant at all.

My mentioning forces far away because I figured maybe you and like minded individuals would be able to grasp a concept of something more to the universe if it was far away from you. Obviously it doesn't seem to matter to you either way whether forces other than the four exist, because you read a physics book and only four exist, remember kids science never changes. It's a static art... I guess I'll argue than, forces could exist in our world that we are unaware of because they work in mysterious ways.

Same universe either way, so it's all relevant. Can't escape the all that encompasses everything!

unknown force proves the existence of any supernatural abilities. (like telekinesis, energy manipulation, or maybe that dreamstalker roleplaying

You seem to think we are having one argument when their are multiple, first argument is whether or not tele, dreamwalking, energy manipulation is possible. Than the second part is about whether other forces could exist in the universe.

They are separate, you don't know that fundamental forces are needed for these skills.

Originally Posted by DeathCell

Didn't ignore your post once again, not agreeing with you because a Physics book says their are only four forces in the world doesn't mean I'm ignoring. It means I choose not to buy into your sentiments on the situation. Their is nothing flawed about what I said, I neither know for a fact if or if not more forces exist.

I already explained why the points were irrelevant, not doing it again sorry.

Trying something for 5 minutes doesn't mean you put in effort. I could try to learn a very advanced form of robotics engineering and fail if I only spent a couple of minutes on it. I personally know no one capable of Telekinesis, whether it exists or not I'm unsure. On the other hand I've had visions of the future on multiple occasions.

1. Don't pretend you know how much time I wasted trying telekinesis.
2. Don't try to compare learning telekinesis with studying engineering sciences.
3. If you're "unsure" about telekinesis, I would assume you're also "unsure" about god, and unsure about the possibility of levitation, bending time and space with the mind, spontaneous regeneration, the flying spaghetti monster, etc.

My mentioning forces far away because I figured maybe you and like minded individuals would be able to grasp a concept of something more to the universe if it was far away from you. Obviously it doesn't seem to matter to you either way whether forces other than the four exist, because you read a physics book and only four exist, remember kids science never changes. It's a static art... I guess I'll argue than, forces could exist in our world that we are unaware of because they work in mysterious ways.

Same universe either way, so it's all relevant. Can't escape the all that encompasses everything!

The scientific method doesn't change, why should it? It's the body of knowledge that does change. But it only changes through the scientific method, otherwise would lead to trouble.

You know what's neat about Universities? They don't just teach knowledge, they produce knowledge. So by attending to an University, you not only get to have contact with researchers, but in the future you may get the chance of participating in research yourself.

One more thing, you speak as if studying science is just memorizing facts, or what the scientific community deems as such. That's completely false and just goes to show how much you know.

You seem to think we are having one argument when their are multiple, first argument is whether or not tele, dreamwalking, energy manipulation is possible. Than the second part is about whether other forces could exist in the universe.

They are separate, you don't know that fundamental forces are needed for these skills.

No. The argument was about supernatural abilities/phenomena. It was only after the physics argument was used that you or someone else started the parallel discussion about the fundamental forces.

Originally Posted by Scatterbrain

I already explained why the points were irrelevant, not doing it again sorry.

The points aren't irrelevant, you just choose to invalidate them.
I on the other hand don't look at your word, or the writers of Physic law to be the final word.

1. Don't pretend you know how much time I wasted trying telekinesis.
2. Don't try to compare learning telekinesis with studying engineering sciences.
3. If you're "unsure" about telekinesis, I would assume you're also "unsure" about god, and unsure about the possibility of levitation, bending time and space with the mind, spontaneous regeneration, the flying spaghetti monster, etc.

1. Your attitude about the study of it shows that you really didn't put any time into it, but that's just a guess.
2. I'll compare whatever I deem necessary. I was showing the point that putting little time into something will very rarely yield something successful.
3. I'm less unsure about a god/goddess, I know their is something more to life than just a coincidence. Levitation seems a possibility to me, unsure about it for sure I've heard certain yogis have been able to do it, I'd sure like to see one in action. I have bent time with my mind, but it was probably within my reality only, in fact I believe many a sports star has this ability. Ever had your reality slow down when something was flying at your face and being able to catch it for instance? This is different than the whole world actually slowing down on a persons whim, your able to slow down what you see and react faster.. spontaneous regeneration I have no opinion on, sounds like something other animals do on a daily basis? Worms? I actually saw the flying spaghetti monster yesterday...

The scientific method doesn't change, why should it? It's the body of knowledge that does change. But it only changes through the scientific method, otherwise would lead to trouble.

You know what's neat about Universities? They don't just teach knowledge, they produce knowledge. So by attending to an University, you not only get to have contact with researchers, but in the future you may get the chance of participating in research yourself.

One more thing, you speak as if studying science is just memorizing facts, or what the scientific community deems as such. That's completely false and just goes to show how much you know.

When did I say the scientific method changed? All I've been saying is, their is a possibility that more than the four currently known forces could exist. That doesn't change the scientific method.

I noticed it's hard for you to pick out my sarcasm, I'm very sarcastic I apologize for this.
I don't think science is just memorizing facts, I think a lot of people who call themselves fans of science are just part of the memorizing facts section, and forget that experimenting and the scientific method and keeping an open mind are what helps science breath and keep us moving forward as a society. I know and understand science quite well, the problem is people are taking scientific laws as if they are static when things can change and have changed before. Which is why I mentioned their were two forces missing from the equation 50 something years ago..

No. The argument was about supernatural abilities/phenomena. It was only after the physics argument was used that you or someone else started the parallel discussion about the fundamental forces.

Keyword in what you said, was.

IN BRIEF: The past tense of the first and third person singular of the verb "to be".

After another discussion started it became two separate subjects being talked about. You just combined them into one, when I was not insinuating that.

Originally Posted by Scatterbrain

Blah blah blah, blahbitty blah

Dude, your posts are so weak and senseless, they're not even worth responding to. At least they make me laugh.

This is just a verbal game to you. You don't actually take the time to look into anything. Take that moon image, if I were to suggest you take the time consider erosion and the effects of other crater impacts evident from the coloration, you wouldn't do that. You would latch onto the words erosion and impact craters, then spit out the first lame thing that pops into your head that belittles it. Then you further covalute things in a long twisted logic web to dodge any valid points against you.

Go play your word games somewhere else!