Thread: Supernatural Discussion

Originally Posted by Walms

Now that I look at it... the moon doesn't seems to have "perfect" hexagons.
And, isn't there a study on water and the shape it takes? Like its linked to certain emotions?

No it is not linked to that emotion crap. That supposedly affects the individual fractal pattern, but nothing changes the 6 pointed hexagon pattern.

If you're just going to glance at that moon image for a few seconds, don't bother. Yes, there are a few perfect ones, but if you don't want to take the time to understand what you're looking at, it's because you don't want to see them.

Ah my bad, what I wanted to say is "Don't have many perfect hexagons" Saw some, but most of those look irregular, after all, time damages the form and so does other craters that are close lol
And I think there are a few that have nothing to do with a hexagon too <.<

Originally Posted by Walms

Ah my bad, what I wanted to say is "Don't have many perfect hexagons" Saw some, but most of those look irregular, after all, time damages the form and so does other craters that are close lol
And I think there are a few that have nothing to do with a hexagon too <.<

You're right, there are a few pentagons and octagons as well, but mostly hexagons. It's kind of hard to retain a perfect shape when they are constantly being bombarded by other meteors (relatively speaking). The newer ones (less eroded, higher ridges) seem to be rounder, and the older, more eroded flatter ones seem to show these geometric shape more predominantly.

Didn't mean to hijack the thread with this hexagon stuff, but it's a perfect example of people blatantly ignoring the obvious evidence without taking the time to every try to understand what's happening.

Why do people who don't believe in this stuff spend so much time and effort here trying to dismiss it? (didn't mean you walms)

Wow, interesting discussion. Always funny to see how scientific-minded and open-minded people collide.

I wonder if any understanding is ever possible, though. These two groups look like different species, one is oriented at "we can prove or disprove everything by science and logic", another is oriented at "science and logic are too limited to serve as proof or disproof".

But the person who started this topic believes in God, I find his stance towards the supernatural a little strange. After all, it's known via the Bible that magic exists and that God dislikes its users. According to the Bible itself, there are other beings along with God who are capable of helping a human being perform unusual deeds.

Magical rocks he mentioned are also explainable via the Bible, as our desires are divided into bad and good, bad coming from or summoned by demons. "The subconscious" is swarming with demons, and it's no surprise that something a little extraordinary may happen once in a while if we want it a lot, why wouldn't demons help us satisfy selfish desires as much (or rather as little, as they can't do much) as they can!

Originally Posted by tkdyo

right, but the article says they use this energy to explain forces that are observed to be exerted on celestial bodies that are abnormal with the current model...could further research lead to another force unique to this energy?

No. The four fundamental forces explain all the interactions in the universe - Occam's Razor, once again. Use the least assumptions. There is no need for another force. The ones we know explain everything.

The effect is unexplained because it wouldn't make sense without the dark energy. The dark energy allows an explanation for these unknown effects, but through existing, known forces, i.e. one of the four fundamental forces.

Originally Posted by tkdyo

No Im not implying this, that would be asinine. Im simply stating we do not have a complete model yet. So it is relevant. Especially if these effects on waves (which carry energy) are not accounted for.

You are right in that we do not have a complete model yet. The strive for a complete model, is a strive to unify the four fundamental forces. The overwhelming scientific consensus is that there are four fundamental forces in the universe and only four. No serious science is being done looking for a new force because of the huge amount of confidence in that there are only four.

Originally Posted by DeathCell

Energy, force, seems to be a jumble of wordology. Use the force luke.

Energy and force are two, very distinct things. It's important to understand this to understand anything about the claims being made about what forces are in the universe. The four forces are as mentioned. Types of energy include kinetic energy (the energy a moving object has) thermal energy, chemical potential energy, etc.

Originally Posted by DeathCell

See that is where you are wrong, I'd be willing to bet they said only two forces exist because that was the information they had. Or did they say, we got two knowns and two unknowns that we are working on.. Other forces could be left undiscovered in our backyard, or billions of miles away.

I didn't say anything was a mechanism for dream sharing, I only said other forces might exist in our galaxy, or simply in the universe. In our bodies, in our souls, who knows. To simply assume because four have been discovered that nothing else exists or it's irrelevant because of distance. I on the other hand look at distance as nothing but an illusion in a time-space continuum. To each his own, some are destined to be open some closed. Some logical, some imaginative. Some both.

Once again I was not claiming anything about mechanisms of dream sharing.

My analogy was quite simple, close minded thoughts like something isn't close so it doesn't matter just holds back our race. It's not gonna help science learn anything, assuming the impossible and you will find the impossible.

I didn't say hurricanes were extraordinary, I said not preparing for them or just choosing not to believe in them because of a lack of proof would be. Yes, we all know hurricanes exist.

Live in a world defined by what we already know, instead of defining the future with the unknown. I won't.

No, I am not wrong. Any good scientist of that time would not have claimed that we know all the forces in the universe. Good scientists do not make such claims unless they have reason to believe so. Reason obviously did not exist then, but it does now, and this is why scientists tell us that there are only four. The overwhelming scientific consensus.

You really missed the point. You are claiming dreamsharing is possible, I am claiming it is not. If you say that we don't know the forces that exist in the universe as part of your argument then you are suggesting that a new, unknown force could be the mechanism for dreamsharing. If this is not what you are claiming then we should not be debating the existence of forces in the universe. Please stop arguing points which are not relevant to the discussion.

The point of distance, I'll explain once again. If the force doesn't exist on earth this means that it cannot be experienced by anyone on earth, be created by anyone on earth or affect anyone on earth. If this is the case, then it cannot have any effect on dreamsharing as all humans are on, or very close to earth. It is therefore completely irrelevant to the topic of dreamsharing, and I wish you need to stop bringing it up, or explain the relevance.

Whether or not any claimed thinking on the part of people arguing against the existence of dreamsharing hinders the progress of the human race is irrelevant to whether or not dreamsharing exists. This is an ad hominem attack. Stop this attack of closed mindedness and present actual arguments or evidence for your case.

Originally Posted by The Cusp

If we can observe distant parts of the universe (which we can) then it is relevant.

I'd like to propose an unknown force. What is it that shapes every single snow flake into a six sided hexagon, as well as the craters on the moon and other planets/moons into perfect hexagons? (Detailed moon image here: http://www.rc-astro.com/photo/id1018_big.html)

This can't just happen for no reason, and if it can be explained with the current known 4 forces, I'd love to hear the explanation. Unfortunately most of the close minded people refuse to even let themselves see the obvious hexagonal craters on the moon, which is mind boggling, since it's so obvious.

No it is not relevant. No humans are dreaming in distant parts of the universe.

There is no mystical force creating hexagons. The reason people see things like shapes, or faces (or even Kermit the frog) on the Moon or Mars, or the clouds is due to a phenomenon known as Pareidolia.

As for ice, "The 6-fold symmetry arises from the hexagonal crystal structure of ordinary ice." See wikipedia.

Originally Posted by Walms

I wonder when I said I was in the side of supernatural <.<
Anyway, because the forces we know say its impossible for telekinesis and the like to be real, its useless to show "proof" as it can be easily called a "lie" and/or "cheating". Also, the proof wanted, as how I see it, needs the use of the technology we currently have, which, because that technology is based on the 4 forces, its impossible to create the proof with it, or at least, one that satisfies everyone.

That in the case its real and a new force.
In the case its real and within the 4 forces, then there is the chance to create a new machine that allows to show the proof, but that would take tons of money and time, or even better, there is already the machine, but nobody wants to believe it/needs improvement lol
In the case its not real, we can all live a happy life, right?

Now that I look at it... the moon doesn't seems to have "perfect" hexagons.
And, isn't there a study on water and the shape it takes? Like its linked to certain emotions?

Eh... Water is not affected by emotion.

A test to convince even the most sceptically minded person would be easy to design. Have two people claiming telepathic abilities who have not met one another communicate a randomly selected word from a very large database from one to the other. Repeat this many times, with many people. Ensure the test is run with proper scientific controls. If such an ability exists, this would be easy to do, and would provide extremely compelling evidence.

o, I am not wrong. Any good scientist of that time would not have claimed that we know all the forces in the universe. Good scientists do not make such claims unless they have reason to believe so. Reason obviously did not exist then, but it does now, and this is why scientists tell us that there are only four. The overwhelming scientific consensus.

You really missed the point. You are claiming dreamsharing is possible, I am claiming it is not. If you say that we don't know the forces that exist in the universe as part of your argument then you are suggesting that a new, unknown force could be the mechanism for dreamsharing. If this is not what you are claiming then we should not be debating the existence of forces in the universe. Please stop arguing points which are not relevant to the discussion.

The point of distance, I'll explain once again. If the force doesn't exist on earth this means that it cannot be experienced by anyone on earth, be created by anyone on earth or affect anyone on earth. If this is the case, then it cannot have any effect on dreamsharing as all humans are on, or very close to earth. It is therefore completely irrelevant to the topic of dreamsharing, and I wish you need to stop bringing it up, or explain the relevance.

Whether or not any claimed thinking on the part of people arguing against the existence of dreamsharing hinders the progress of the human race is irrelevant to whether or not dreamsharing exists. This is an ad hominem attack. Stop this attack of closed mindedness and present actual arguments or evidence for your case.

My point was never dreamsharing, never. I have really almost no opinion on that subject.

My point was other forces could exist, if not here somewhere in the universe.
I don't believe the laws of physics to be static, I believe they could possibly be amended at some time to an unknown force.

And once again, never was my point dreamsharing, only the possibility for other forces to exist. I don't need to prove to you that it is possible, you need to stop the closemindedness. You keep telling me that because a lot of scientists agree than it is an unshakable fact, and than claim distance makes the existence of another energy unimportant, maybe to dream sharing but once again not my point.

Yes I did say it is possible for dreamsharing, but the argument of other forces existing wasn't assuming it was affecting dream sharing.

I'm quite able to understand the point of distance, thanks for your interpenetration..

Interpretation maybe

Why are we DEBATING this in Beyond Dreaming? I thought the whole point of this section was to stay open minded. To assume the thing exists, and discuss it from that point of view.


Summary: Some if not most people experience amazing things in their lives. The others pass these things off as coincidence or overreaction.

I say in a few centuries, if not decades, most of these new preposterous things will fall under the category of "science".

And we'll look back at our ancestors and laugh at how close minded they were.

I don't think a test of the kind would work, there are many things to consider, like the guy is just too good at reading peoples body, got lucky on some, the things people "think" gets greatly affected by the knowledge of the experiment, so its easy to cheat, or everyone is just doing a collective lie to win themselves some money, unless there were a machine to make it easy for everyone, because people like easy things <.<

And I think BD is open to debate, as long as there is no flaming/trolling going on.
That and I don't think believing on science is close-minded lol

Originally Posted by WaterSquirrel

Why are we DEBATING this in Beyond Dreaming? I thought the whole point of this section was to stay open minded. To assume the thing exists, and discuss it from that point of view.


Summary: Some if not most people experience amazing things in their lives. The others pass these things off as coincidence or overreaction.

I say in a few centuries, if not decades, most of these new preposterous things will fall under the category of "science".

And we'll look back at our ancestors and laugh at how close minded they were.

Well, those who don`t believe in the supernatural doesn`t say the supernatural doesn`t exist, we just don`t believe it does. We don`t say to stop research it. So why not discuss it even if we don`t believe it?

Originally Posted by WaterSquirrel

Why are we DEBATING this in Beyond Dreaming? I thought the whole point of this section was to stay open minded. To assume the thing exists, and discuss it from that point of view.

The point of the section is not to be open minded, you can find that anywhere. The section is for people who believe supernatural topics, and not for questioning them. Threads like this one are different, because the OP brought science into the discussion.

Originally Posted by DeathCell

1. Your attitude about the study of it shows that you really didn't put any time into it, but that's just a guess.
2. I'll compare whatever I deem necessary. I was showing the point that putting little time into something will very rarely yield something successful.
3. I'm less unsure about a god/goddess, I know their is something more to life than just a coincidence. Levitation seems a possibility to me, unsure about it for sure I've heard certain yogis have been able to do it, I'd sure like to see one in action. I have bent time with my mind, but it was probably within my reality only, in fact I believe many a sports star has this ability. Ever had your reality slow down when something was flying at your face and being able to catch it for instance? This is different than the whole world actually slowing down on a persons whim, your able to slow down what you see and react faster.. spontaneous regeneration I have no opinion on, sounds like something other animals do on a daily basis? Worms? I actually saw the flying spaghetti monster yesterday...

I did put a lot of time into telekinesis, I believed in all kind of supernatural things when I was younger, even now I want to believe in ESP.

The last point I was making is that you can imagine an infinite number of unfalsifiable "possibilities" with no proof supporting them. I actually referenced many powers from the tv show 'Heroes'

When did I say the scientific method changed? All I've been saying is, their is a possibility that more than the four currently known forces could exist. That doesn't change the scientific method.

You said science doesn't change, but left implied that there's something wrong with that. I merely pointed out that only the knowledge is supposed to change and not the method.

I noticed it's hard for you to pick out my sarcasm, I'm very sarcastic I apologize for this.
I don't think science is just memorizing facts, I think a lot of people who call themselves fans of science are just part of the memorizing facts section, and forget that experimenting and the scientific method and keeping an open mind are what helps science breath and keep us moving forward as a society. I know and understand science quite well, the problem is people are taking scientific laws as if they are static when things can change and have changed before. Which is why I mentioned their were two forces missing from the equation 50 something years ago.

You'll notice that, at very least, people studying science at University level know better than anyone to keep an open mind. Part of the education is focused on developing critical thinking and skepticism, and understanding the scientific method. To prove my point, just yesterday I didn't reply to the thread because I had a Physics test and a lecture which was in part about the history of the scientific method, physics and engineering.

The point is, there "could be" another unknown force, however, as of now we haven't observed or detected an interaction outside of the 4 fundamental forces. Until we do, there's no reason to assume the existence of a new force.

Originally Posted by The Cusp

Dude, your posts are so weak and senseless, they're not even worth responding to. At least they make me laugh.

This is just a verbal game to you. You don't actually take the time to look into anything. Take that moon image, if I were to suggest you take the time consider erosion and the effects of other crater impacts evident from the coloration, you wouldn't do that. You would latch onto the words erosion and impact craters, then spit out the first lame thing that pops into your head that belittles it. Then you further covalute things in a long twisted logic web to dodge any valid points against you.

Go play your word games somewhere else!

Ah, I understand now why you never leave the beyond dreaming section, you don't take criticism too well.

The craters don't seem to have a hexagon shape, at most you could say they're polygonal.

If they are hexagonal, polygonal, or whatever, the lack of an explanation for the fact doesn't prove the existence of a new force, it just proves we don't know or we haven't studied it. This, is obvious logic to anyone.

I remembered you posted a thread about this a while ago, none of the good points done there appear to have gotten across to you at all.

You said science doesn't change, but left implied that there's something wrong with that. I merely pointed out that only the knowledge is supposed to change and not the method.

I meant a lot of people in the Scientific community seem to think once a theory is in place, that is it it can never change or people would possibly ignore things right in front of them to keep things the same. Not everyone, but from my experience with "science" people I don't imagine them all being open-minded at all..

The point is, there "could be" another unknown force, however, as of now we haven't observed or detected an interaction outside of the 4 fundamental forces. Until we do, there's no reason to assume the existence of a new force.

That was my only point. I didn't assume, I just understand the universe to be infinite and continuously expanding so another force existing makes sense. I have no proof, and I'm not assuming it is for sure just probable.

Originally Posted by DeathCell

I meant a lot of people in the Scientific community seem to think once a theory is in place, that is it it can never change or people would possibly ignore things right in front of them to keep things the same. Not everyone, but from my experience with "science" people I don't imagine them all being open-minded at all..

But inertia to new ideas is inherent to human nature, not to science.

And here comes another Carl Sagan quote, I can't resist:

In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time someting like that happened in politics or religion.

Originally Posted by Scatterbrain

But inertia to new ideas is inherent to human nature, not to science.

And here comes another Carl Sagan quote, I can't resist:

Nice quote, organized religion usually doesn't change without a big mess of violence.

On the other hand the the real faithful, can change their mind about things.

DeathCell
I may be wrong, but you are just talking random things

jatoo
You´re right

__________________________________________

And now. Before any more posting happens, superpeople, who believe in astral stuff, can answer this:

1. Why dont you prove it?
2. How can you see while "astral projecting", when vision only exists in our brain (our eyes convert the waves, that collide from surfaces, to a "vision", to help us understant, what is around us, just an evolutional trick)
3. Astral Projection or whatever is known to be dreaming, and is obviosly dreaming, and it is dreaming, and I have tried it, and knew I was dreaming so why would it be something else, when it´s not possible to see if it would not be (2.)
4. Why don´t you answer? (optional, if you did, then do not answer to this)
5. Why are you trying to ignore these questions (if you are not, then this is optional too)

Originally Posted by Ghost94

So I kinda did a bit too offensive topic earlier today, and now I decided to do a more calm one. One of the mods actually told me to do this, so it is weird if this gets locked... But anyway:

So I believe in god. I am a lutherin, and I think, that our ways are quite right. But god is the only "higher" thing, that I belive in. Now, after reading quite a lot of these threads here, I just need the urge to talk about these things. Because for me, it all seems so obvious, that there are no "higher" things. And it seems so obvious, that the things, that are being talked right here, have a scientifical purpose. Like the "magical rocks". It has been proven, that the rocks have no effect whatsoever to the human brain (brain = mind). But that the actual effect comes from the placebo effect. It basically means, that when the brain (subconscious) thinks something, it acts like it. So if you´d think, that you have cought the fever, you will provoke a fever (this is actually true). The placebo effect has been widely used in medical science too, for about half of the effect of any drug comes from the placebo effect. So the rock only makes the brain think, that the rock has an effect, and the brain acts like it. For example, if you have a rock, that makes you sleep better, then your brain may, just for this effect, be more alert to melatonin.

And basically, just about all of these "magical" things can be explained with the placebo effect or another simple fact.


And here is the core of this article: When just about all of the stuff here can be explained by science, then why would it not be only, simple science, and nothing "higher"?
Why do you believe, that it is not just science?

there is no such thing as 'magic', in the sense or the way you are using 'magic'

there are no such things as magical rocks. but no one is running around saying that this is a magical rock. the belief has nothing to do with 'magic', but energy

the belief is that certain objects have a particular energy about them that is beneficial to the human being in some way, be it beneficial to the material OR other energy bodies.

take for example: food

obviously there are foods that are good for you, and foods that are not so good for you.

now extend the idea of good and bad food for the body, to good and bad food for the astral body. or energy body, or etheric body, or mental body - take your pick.

the belief is we have many bodies, not one. one of our most important bodies is the energy body. without it, we die. this energy body is linked to all of our vital organs. this is not physical energy as we know it. science can not see it, or measure it. we can only see the end result of how it effected our material body, thus, it looks like a placebo effect. the chakra system is a system in both our energy and material body, effectively uniting the two.

so let's go back to those magical rocks. everything is energy. everything is energy resonating. the idea that things are truly solid is an illusion. the higher the frequency something resonates at - the higher up in the chart of reality it is. heaven, or your idea of heaven is resonating at a higher frequency than our physical earth. just like the bible says, heaven is here on earth but we can not see it. we can not see it because our eyes are only capturing the parts of reality resonating at a much lower vibration/frequency, what ever.

energy workers then look for items that help the energy body, or mental body, or astral body and so on. this is the body you are running around in when you dream. and the body most of us will be running around in when we die. Helping this body, in turn helps our material body. Do they turn to items sometimes, like rocks? Yes. its a complicated story. but crystals are considered to be some of the most purest substances on earth that allow higher vibrations of energy to channel through them. Some of these healing rocks radiate energy, that is yours to freely take if you choose to. Whose energy do you think it is were talking about here? Energy workers know. Other rocks do the opposite, they are like sponges, they take in lower negative energies from your own bodies. Mud baths aren't just good for the skin, its believed to be taking a load off your energy body as well. The earth herself is also believed to absorb bad energy, if you are first willing to let go.

are these 'magical rocks' a science? yes. is it a 'higher thing?'. yes. old fashioned religions pit science against heaven, and say "this is a scientific thing" and this is a "heavenly thing". but in this belief, thats nonsense. everything is explainable, just CURRENTLY not by OUR science. and what is 'heavenly' or 'higher' is something that helps align yourself in some way to all that heaven is. its completely dependent on where you are in reality and whether or not it helps you.

here is an example of energy 'magic' healing. slow down. sit some where nice and quiet. take several, long and deep breaths. feel good? other people call it prana. it is the energy of God all around us, though we are ignorant to it, our physical body is always 'breathing' this energy. theres no point in asking a scientist to prove this energy is here. this is pure spiritual energy. and it is first absorbed by your other bodies then experienced in the material.

I'm not asking you to believe in all of this stuff, but if you believe in a soul you might want to look into it. Its very beneficial to understand higher and lower vibrations of energy and how it effects you, and your relationship to God.

What I am really trying to get at is, magic is a false understanding behind energy work. Energy healers treat what they do as a science. It is such a science to them, its down to the books. Look at the chakra system. They have it mapped out and relate the system to your organs, to your nervous system, to your digestive system. That they have channels that work like veins. What the chakras are prone to. What activates them. What blocks up their channels. How food effects them. How sleep effects them.

And someone might recommend, sleep with this stone on your forehead or under your pillow and so on. And you can say "silly magic". But ask them. Their reason isn't magic. Their reason would be along the lines of the energy of the stone resonates with the energy of the brow chakra.

In their eyes, it is both science and spiritual at the same time. No separation of heaven and earth.

so before you knock off 'magical' rocks as silly, ask yourself, do you believe everything is energy resonating?

Originally Posted by juroara

What I am really trying to get at is, magic is a false understanding behind energy work. Energy healers treat what they do as a science. It is such a science to them, its down to the books.

Just because they make up a bunch of words and concepts doesn't mean they use the scientific method in any way.

Their methods lack empiricism, rationalism and skepticism, the three are essential to science and critical thinking.

And someone might recommend, sleep with this stone on your forehead or under your pillow and so on. And you can say "silly magic". But ask them. Their reason isn't magic. Their reason would be along the lines of the energy of the stone resonates with the energy of the brow chakra.

In their eyes, it is both science and spiritual at the same time. No separation of heaven and earth.

so before you knock off 'magical' rocks as silly, ask yourself, do you believe everything is energy resonating?

Energy and chakras are made up concepts, they explain nothing, it's not science.

Pretending for a second the magic stones actually have some sort of effect on the body, using just our imagination we could get a completely different but just as good explanation(if you can call it that) for what had happened.

Originally Posted by Ghost94

DeathCell
I may be wrong, but you are just talking random things

Way to make a pointless post and not explain anything.
Random things!!!

Their methods lack empiricism, rationalism and skepticism, the three are essential to science and critical thinking.

Incorrect, they have all these parts in their, the only thing they lack is a worldwide understanding. Not everything is so simple and in a physical plane. Some things are hard to see, gotta read between the lines if you will. Not everything is reproducible over and over again to satisfy your insatiable lust for proof. Nor will science welcome with open arms thoughts that are not widely accepted by them.

Energy and chakras are made up concepts, they explain nothing, it's not science.

Pretending for a second the magic stones actually have some sort of effect on the body, using just our imagination we could get a completely different but just as good explanation(if you can call it that) for what had happened.

Science is not the only route to understanding. That is what you miss.

Energy and Chakras are real. Whether you understand or consciously have any control over yours is up for debate.

Originally Posted by DeathCell

Incorrect, they have all these parts in their, the only thing they lack is a worldwide understanding. Not everything is so simple and in a physical plane. Some things are hard to see, gotta read between the lines if you will. Not everything is reproducible over and over again to satisfy your insatiable lust for proof. Nor will science welcome with open arms thoughts that are not widely accepted by them.

Look up the definitions of empiricism, rationalism, skepticism.

- They lack empiricism because they don't rely on empiric evidence;
- They lack rationalism because they rely on fallacious reasonings;
- They lack skepticism because they don't question their conclusions (which were achieved through flawed logic in the first place).

Science is not the only route to understanding. That is what you miss.

Yea, I'm not "enlightened" so I don't understand, right?

Backup the claim or it means nothing. Please point out which method other than the scientific method can be used to acquire new knowledge and technology.

Energy and Chakras are real. Whether you understand or consciously have any control over yours is up for debate.

There's no such thing as chakras and energy, the truth is in space there are cloaked high-tech alien satellites remotely connected to a part of everyone's brain. Whether you consciously have any control over yours is up for debate.

Originally Posted by Scatterbrain

Look up the definitions of empiricism, rationalism, skepticism.

- They lack empiricism because they don't rely on empiric evidence;
- They lack rationalism because they rely on fallacious reasonings;
- They lack skepticism because they don't question their conclusions (which were achieved through flawed logic in the first place).

In philosophy, empiricism is a theory of knowledge which asserts that knowledge arises from experience

Their knowledge arises from experience, I'm not talking about dogma in bibles etc.

rationalism is "any view appealing to reason as a source of knowledge or justification"

Personal experiences appeal to my reason, it would be a justification.

* (a) an inquiry,
* (b) a method of obtaining knowledge through systematic doubt and continual testing,
* (c) the arbitrariness, relativity, or subjectivity of moral values,
* (d) the limitations of knowledge,
* (e) a method of intellectual caution and suspended judgment.

Yea, I'm not "enlightened" so I don't understand, right?

Backup the claim or it means nothing. Please point out which method other than the scientific method can be used to acquire new knowledge and technology.

I didn't say that, you don't understand cause you haven't experienced it. Whether your enlightened or not is inconsequential to me.

I just understand I can figure things out without the aid of a science book, I can go out into the world and observe for myself without assistance from an "expert". I can watch the seasons turn, etc...

I could invent something without any background in science, I could figure something out without the aid of science. I understand that people are amazing and can discover amazing things, invent amazing things, do amazing things without the help of science. What they discover, invent may eventually be added to lists of scientific discoveries, without the help of previous science.

There's no such thing as chakras and energy, the truth is in space there are cloaked high-tech alien satellites remotely connected to a part of everyone's brain. Whether you consciously have any control over yours is up for debate.

Interesting thought, you can believe it if you want. I will instead choose to understand chakras and the subtle energies of the body.

The Open Minded
Principle:
Take facts away, center in belief. Thus they create new "facts".
Main Weapons:
Ignoring rationality, thus ignoring argumets of the other "camp"
Making "clever looking" posts. Easy, when you can take things out of thin air.
Secondary Weapons:
Insults
Ignoring questions
Escaping from the subject
Random posting

Rational People
Principle:
Believe in facts
Weapons:
Splitting the offending post, then responding accurately to every word
Base their arguments with real facts


My conclusion: Rational people are 100&#37; right, the open minded are 10% right.


EDIT:
And I know, that my english ain&#180;t perfect, so stop complaining

Originally Posted by DeathCell

You believe in God but doubt the ability for anything magical in the world...

Huh?

holy crap, not to be off topic or anything but OP just got seriously owned.
on the subject, You just seem to be one of the "see it to believe it" kind of people.

Originally Posted by Ghost94

The Open Minded
Principle:
Take facts away, center in belief. Thus they create new "facts".
Main Weapons:
Ignoring rationality, thus ignoring argumets of the other "camp"
Making "clever looking" posts. Easy, when you can take things out of thin air.
Secondary Weapons:
Insults
Ignoring questions
Escaping from the subject
Random posting

Rational People
Principle:
Believe in facts
Weapons:
Splitting the offending post, then responding accurately to every word
Base their arguments with real facts


My conclusion: Rational people are 100&#37; right, the open minded are 10% right.


EDIT:
And I know, that my english ain&#180;t perfect, so stop complaining

Lets take two groups of people, make up our own definitions and call it fact.

That's the group you belong to.

I classify you as

Rationally Irrational

Here are a list of symptoms

You post under the name Ghost
Claim to be the official person to change the meanings of open minded to fit your patterns.
Ignorant

My conclusion, you are -100% correct and what you say is pointless.

Ghost you believe in god and don't believe in the possibility of anything else "weird" in the world, its' kind of silly backing up one of the hardest to prove theories and brushing everything else people say as insane nonsense.

Pick and choose what works for you that isn't proven and then disrespect anyone who has a view on Psychic abilities etc.. when you believe in a God you can't prove..

Hypocrite? Much?

Originally Posted by DeathCell

Lets take two groups of people, make up our own definitions and call it fact.

That's the group you belong to.

I classify you as

Rationally Irrational

Here are a list of symptoms

You post under the name Ghost
Claim to be the official person to change the meanings of open minded to fit your patterns.
Ignorant

My conclusion, you are -100% correct and what you say is pointless.

Ghost you believe in god and don't believe in the possibility of anything else "weird" in the world, its' kind of silly backing up one of the hardest to prove theories and brushing everything else people say as insane nonsense.

Pick and choose what works for you that isn't proven and then disrespect anyone who has a view on Psychic abilities etc.. when you believe in a God you can't prove..

Hypocrite? Much?

Well, whatever you say. But I´m right

Originally Posted by Ghost94

So I kinda did a bit too offensive topic earlier today, and now I decided to do a more calm one. One of the mods actually told me to do this, so it is weird if this gets locked... But anyway:

So I believe in god. I am a lutherin, and I think, that our ways are quite right. But god is the only "higher" thing, that I belive in. Now, after reading quite a lot of these threads here, I just need the urge to talk about these things. Because for me, it all seems so obvious, that there are no "higher" things. And it seems so obvious, that the things, that are being talked right here, have a scientifical purpose. Like the "magical rocks". It has been proven, that the rocks have no effect whatsoever to the human brain (brain = mind). But that the actual effect comes from the placebo effect. It basically means, that when the brain (subconscious) thinks something, it acts like it. So if you&#180;d think, that you have cought the fever, you will provoke a fever (this is actually true). The placebo effect has been widely used in medical science too, for about half of the effect of any drug comes from the placebo effect. So the rock only makes the brain think, that the rock has an effect, and the brain acts like it. For example, if you have a rock, that makes you sleep better, then your brain may, just for this effect, be more alert to melatonin.

And basically, just about all of these "magical" things can be explained with the placebo effect or another simple fact.


And here is the core of this article: When just about all of the stuff here can be explained by science, then why would it not be only, simple science, and nothing "higher"?
Why do you believe, that it is not just science?

I've read some of the posts on this topic and it is an interesting subject. I have a question for the person who started this post. How can you believe in God and nothing else supernatural or "higher?" You say you are a Lutheran, so I assume you believe the Bible which is full of various supernatural beings other than God, such as Angels, demons, spirits, magic and sorcery abounds from Genesis to Revelation. Also do you believe you have a soul, will go to heaven or hell? If not I don't believe your faith is based on the Bible.
Note: This is not an attack on anyones belief or lack of belief in whatever God they choose or not choose, it is just very strange for me to read from someone who says they believe in God, but nothing else "higher".

As for the science debate, I agree with those who say science has not proved everything, or not found the answers to everything including the amount of forces in the universe. I have had experiences many on this messageboard would say are impossible but they happened, I can't prove it too you, but that doesn't mean they didn't happen for you can't prove they didn't either. I have had things move in my house without anybody touching them, had precognitive dreams, and other things. Science is constantly being amended and changed. Poltergiest investigators such as William Roll have documented proof of the supernatural, in one investigation on Unsolved Mysteries William Roll recorded bangs, knocks, and voices in a sealed hull of a ship. Nobody was there, it was sealed off, and this isn't some crack pot either but a parapsycholgist from Duke University. He doesn't beleive they are ghosts but PK from the mind, something modern science can't explain.