Thread: Could astral projection really be lucid dreaming?

Sorry I can see that it could be misunderstood, but I meant: start a war between beliefs - I was actually trying to say that I can see everybodys point of view - and that I'm not trying to push my opinion or beliefs onto someone who doesn't share my views - only trying to exchange arguments and thereby bigger understanding of how other people think - I'm trying not to get my ego to much involved here

I don't have english as my native language, so I'm not always making myself clear. So sorry: No wars here, not even a rebellion...

Hmm, you don't need to make excuses for normal behavior... The way I see it, this new one is a way to avoid speaking your opinion, although that is what threads are for. C'mon, imitate others, repeat your opinions for 10 pages, I'm sure that you'll never feel like you need an excuse after that.

Can't do that - I'm into Dream yoga and have to let my ego go away

(and really: I do like a nice exchange of opinions, but I'm NEVER expecting anybody to believe everything I'm saying...)

Fear of making a war is ego, too

Replying to your post is also completely ego-boosting

Now we have ruined this fine thread completely... I'll take my part of the blame, sor** ups almost said sorry again




(At least I know I'm right on everything )

Nobody's writing on topic anyway.

And all these ego arguments are so circular. If replying to my post is ego boosting (why, what bad feelings do you feel while replying to it?), then not replying must be ego boosting, too. You're afraid of showing ego, becoming not so cool... or something.

Everything is so ego-boosting that we might as well freeze on one spot. Or at least those of us who want to delete the ego

exactly: by not writing back I could tell myself that I was so cool that I didn't need to write back to feel good about myself -and the fact that I was the only one knowing that I was cool - made it even better (but even thinking that thought would boost my ego again...)

But then again I'm only human and I think you can read the irony behind the words - then again stating that i use irony would also make my post seem futile as i can always say that I didn't mean anything: "it was only irony"

Glad to exchange a few words with people here - they are so friendly (now was that irony?!?) ok shut up TJuulsgaard (can you get a ban by telling yourself to shut up?) I really want to be taken just a bit seriously - but with these arguments everything really does seem a bit dreamlike all of a sudden... (- like they say in those dream-yoga books)

thanks for being a nice sport Arutad - I enjoy the ramblings were having. (No irony!)

The scientific community's name for Astral Projection and Out of Body Experiences is Remote Viewing. It is a psychic ability. It can be like Lucid Dreaming, except that you are viewing something occurring somewhere else, or seeing a place that you want to visit, real places and events, not simply inner dream landscapes. You probably will only be an observer rather than interacting.

There is a U.S. Government program called Project Stargate which uses remote viewing for spying or for finding missing soldiers. You might do a search on books by Dale E. Graff (_River Dreams_ and _Tracks in the Psychic Wilderness_), who was a former director of Stargate. Also David Morehouse, also part of Stargate, has done an audio course on Remote Viewing, which I have, but haven't yet listened to. I found that at Sounds True, a catalog in the mail, but I'm sure they have a website as well. I have a young dog, and if I'm not sleeping with her, or online, she thinks my time is HERS! It's been hard to read or listen to audio CD's since I got the spoiled little adorable sweet loving Princess Lily. Prima Dona that she is.

I often do remote viewing spontaneously, but haven't learned how to initiate or control it. But I see things going on with family, who are scattered all over the U.S., and later have them verified. It's interesting!

Originally Posted by IrisRavenstar

There is a U.S. Government program called Project Stargate which uses remote viewing for spying or for finding missing soldiers.

Is that in the same sense that "There is a UFO in Area 51" i.e. you can find website which says so.


Anyone interested in the US militarys experiments with psychic powers should read "the men who stare at goats".

Please Moonshine - you are probably a very reasonable person, but I think that you are out of line ridiculing serious arguments - you are basically saying that Irisravenstar are either hallucinating or lying - I can see that you don't really believe in anything other than what is scientifically tested beyond belief or what you have experienced yourself. Thats fine but you shouldn't ridicule others.

I find it very interesting that US army had a program for remote viewing - and its a fact that the programme took place.

see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remote_viewing

Originally Posted by moonshine

Is that in the same sense that "There is a UFO in Area 51" i.e. you can find website which says so.


Anyone interested in the US militarys experiments with psychic powers should read "the men who stare at goats".

Well, I'm personally acquainted with Dale E. Graff, who is a former director of Stargate. He was one of the presenters at the IASD's Psiber Dreaming Conference the past two years, and was the sender for one of the psychic contests last year. He's a very nice man! He is one of the few presenters who keeps his discussion thread going the full period of the conference and really talks to people. So I can assure you that Stargate actually exists. Dale is retired now, and does dream workshops to promote his books and share his knowledge. His website is:

HTML Code:

http://dalegraff.com/

Originally Posted by TJuulsgaard

I find it very interesting that US army had a program for remote viewing - and its a fact that the programme took place.

see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remote_viewing

Actually thats fair enough.
It was also closed down for

a lack of documented evidence that the program had any value to the intelligence community

Originally Posted by Specialis Sapientia

The techniques are very similar because in both you change your focus and data stream from this physical virtual reality to another non-physical virtual reality.

It could be quite possible for an individual to believe that he had an "Astral Projetction" when he instead had a very vivid and realistic "lucid dream", where the main "criteria" were met. This do of course not negate the other.

If one ever get to experience the out of body, one should try to validate it. Either get information that would otherwise be impossible or do experiments to explore the nature of these experiences.

The night my mother died, in 1996, I had a vivid lucid dream that I was at her bedside in Florida (I'm in Connecticut), holding her hand. I knew she had been worried about me if she died, as we were very close, and yet she was in a huge amount of pain from cancer. As I held her hand, I told her it was okay to go now, I'd be okay. I then started to wake up, realized that I had *really* been with her, and was flooded with peace and the awareness that she had crossed over. I went back to sleep and slept very peacefully. My sister-in-law called early in the morning to tell me she had passed during the night. I said, "I know. I was with her." I know I puzzle my family with statements like that... but I *was* with her! Every bit as much as if I were physically in the room, and I knew she knew it too. I did get to say goodbye.

I don't know if Out of Body is the right term, but the connection, the being together, that was real. Now, I don't know when people start talking about running off to other worlds if any of that is real. I haven't personally experienced that. How much is real, how much is imagination? It's hard to say. But we I think we have all kinds of experiences that sort of defy being neatly labelled. But still, we like having things boxed up and understood, don't we? 'Tis our nature! Or at least the nature of the left side of our brains. The right side is a bit more free-flowing.

good points Irisravenstar - and yes Moonshine you are right the program was closed. Still there was a lot of believers and some unexplainable things happening, but as usual our "science" wasn't up to the job.

I must say that I have wondered during this discussion what it is that makes me want to go back and defend something that as you say, Moonshine, isn't proven to a fact.

I can understand why you need the scientist to make that first breakthrough and tell the world that OBE's, Remote viewing or "whatever" really exists.
I have studied (in my freetime, not in a professionel way) lots of pages of OBE's, Near death experiences, ghost-stories and so on - and although science can't really prove it - and mainly because it takes loads and loads of welldocumented research and lab-experiments to make it foolproof. Science just isn't up to that yet or maybe "mystiscm" isn't up to it. (or wants it to happen...)

One thing I do know is that I have read so many "stories" like eg. IrisRavenstars and many others where 2 or more people can verify the truth of the incident - people who gains nothing from going public even refrains from telling their stories in fear of being ridiculed. Again I must say some of them could be lying - but if only one "incident" is true - it IS true. All the false ones doesn't matter.

Off course as nothing have been proved scientifically it all comes down to one point: Do you believe or don't you believe. I believe, others don't believe and that is fine. I just find the arguments for believing greater than the ones for not believing - but then again it also depends on how much you dig into the subject - I can't really justify my belief by linking to websites or books other people will never read.

Just ask yourself the question: Do I miss out on something?

Moonshine, I can see the points you are selling from your viewpoint, once again: lets agree on disagreeing, with mutual respect - I'm glad you make me think about my viewpoint

Originally Posted by TJuulsgaard

On this forum I was refering to the experimenters had a high succesrate - it could be fun (maybe even groundbreakingly interesting) to try this experiment on this forum. The next time i have a false awakening or a "dream" that takes place in my bedroom I will be sure to look at the card which I'm going to put on my bookshelf.

did you try looking at the playing card?

Originally Posted by IrisRavenstar

The night my mother died, in 1996, I had a vivid lucid dream that I was at her bedside in Florida (I'm in Connecticut), holding her hand. I knew she had been worried about me if she died, as we were very close, and yet she was in a huge amount of pain from cancer. As I held her hand, I told her it was okay to go now, I'd be okay. I then started to wake up, realized that I had *really* been with her, and was flooded with peace and the awareness that she had crossed over. I went back to sleep and slept very peacefully. My sister-in-law called early in the morning to tell me she had passed during the night. I said, "I know. I was with her." I know I puzzle my family with statements like that... but I *was* with her! Every bit as much as if I were physically in the room, and I knew she knew it too. I did get to say goodbye.

I don't know if Out of Body is the right term, but the connection, the being together, that was real. Now, I don't know when people start talking about running off to other worlds if any of that is real. I haven't personally experienced that. How much is real, how much is imagination? It's hard to say. But we I think we have all kinds of experiences that sort of defy being neatly labelled. But still, we like having things boxed up and understood, don't we? 'Tis our nature! Or at least the nature of the left side of our brains. The right side is a bit more free-flowing.

I should expand.

The difference between waking life, dream, lucid dreams, OBE's, AP's and etc.
is not what one would think.

We can imagine that consciousness is one very large spectrum, that some states have more/higher awareness, focus and control.

It's hard to put in the right words, but everything is interconnected, it makes it even harder when the meaning and definition of these concepts are vague, and even harder when the concepts are limited and confined to a little area.

You were with her, and it that way labelling the experience a lucid dream is confining the experience to be something 100% internally produced. Dreaming is just being in the non-physical when you sleep (from our waking perspective), the data stream being processed can come from an external or internal source, in your case you was dreaming and received data from an external source, your mother. So dreaming does not mean "it's not real", dreaming is as real as right now, the dreaming environment is just often different in nature, for many people vague and not very memorable nor important. The quality of perception differs, but it's still real.

The most common form of data from the NPMR (Non-Physical-Matter-Reality) is accessing the data banks of different databases, either actualized past (Things that did happen), unactualized past (Everything else that could happen but didn't) and the future probable database, very often we hear of precognitive dreams. Those are individuals accessing that database, the probable future, because of free-will the future can only be probable.

Logically, when progressing more and more into the future, the event you're requesting or getting information about is not very probable, the calculation of events gets more precise closer to present time (It's easy to predict your next actions, but with free-will the probability of an action that could happen in 1000 years is not very likely).

When someone get this data about a future event one must realize that it's not bound to happen, the data you get could be a low probability event, but you still perceived it, and with free-will the projected future can be changed, that is why some many dreams don't come true, they are either just not data from the database, or probably/not probably and did not happen.

Now I have said too much , the things that I have said may only give reason if the full model is applied too, (Like a big puzzle, with pieces fitting together, either you have the pieces to understand to "I" or someone else bring the pieces to understand).

If one is interested in a Theory of Everything, that links physics and metaphysics together, that explains the big picture (Beyond physical-matter-reality) in a very logical, westerner mind-set that is not written to only the most educated. The author is a scientist who currently works for NASA, but have dedicated over 35 years of his life to the pioneer research of consciousness. The fruit of this can be shared with everyone.

The trilogy is available for free online, but can be bought on the internet too.

My Big TOE

See more

Now get started with decreasing the entropy of your consciousness!

Sounds interesting. That also fits right in there with buddhism and the very popular book: New Earth by Eckhart Tolle - in which he speaks about a greater consciousness. Also Remote Viewing is regarded to be seeing things in a greater common consciousness from a different location than your own- as acknowledged by the US Military.

I look forward to exploring the content of the links.

Edit: can't seem to get the first link to work...

Edit: These books sounds mouth-wateringly interesting. I'm gonna have to order. S. Sapienta, did you buy the books and did you order from the site you linked to?

Originally Posted by tvs_frank

did you try looking at the playing card?

I'm sorry no, I'm not a very accomplished LD'er and haven't had a false awakening in the real-time-zone, since writing about the experiment. I'm hoping WILD'ers with a better succesrate with FA would take up the experiment.

Originally Posted by TJuulsgaard

Sounds interesting. That also fits right in there with buddhism and the very popular book: New Earth by Eckhart Tolle - in which he speaks about a greater consciousness. Also Remote Viewing is regarded to be seeing things in a greater common consciousness from a different location than your own- as acknowledged by the US Military.

I look forward to exploring the content of the links.

Edit: can't seem to get the first link to work...

Edit: These books sounds mouth-wateringly interesting. I'm gonna have to order. S. Sapienta, did you buy the books and did you order from the site you linked to?

Thanks for noticing, the first link missed a "h" in "http". It is corrected.

I have tried to order the book(s) (I want the one with the trilogy as one book) several times, it appears there was an error with either the credit card or validation process. So far I have to use the Google books one. I should be able to buy it next week with a new credit card, it is more enjoyable to read it in book-form than a computer screen, IMO.

I think the trilogy will widen your view quite a lot (like it has done to me)

To all "probable" readers , read the preface, it's crucial.

Oh, if anyone want to see what's it about before reading, take a look at this 3 hour long video, it is the author speaking in London to a lecture.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akgCb85PG-A

And maybe an interview on Coast to Coast AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcLWTuwT7Kk

There is much more material, many interviews, a 6 hour long audio file from a workshop (lecture+exercises), a discussion board, and maybe most interesting, audio files of direct exploration in the unknown, which were conducted at "The Monroe Institute". The author was actually with Robert Monroe when they first started building the first lab, he and another was the first explorer to conduct hard working scientific research there. Well, that should be enjoyed after one has read the book, it will give more meaning and have more value.

Good luck!

My personal belief is that they are different. But any reasons I come upp with to support my side just as easily support the other, too. They are pretty much the same I suppose... Gosh now I'm confusing myself. Hahaha. =P

IMO yes, AP/OBE is the same thing as LD'ing unless you are dead/dying and experiencing a NDE

I guess people have answered this before, but what exactly happens if you do a reality check when you're having an obe? If you look at a digital clock or something does it behave normally?

Yes, well I think you can dream in internal worlds or choose to go out and roam or visit someone.

Another posibility is that in the astral plane you can bend and create things at your will but only for you and your DC's like if it were an illusion, but how things really are in the astral plane are masked or something.