Thread: Patjunfa's workbook

Originally Posted by Patjunfa

Hi all

I've been into lucid dreaming off and on for many years. 1st got into it about 20 years ago (I'm 40 now). In the last few years I've taken it off the back burner and committed to developing this as a faculty in my life. For my thesis in my MSc in mindfulness studies I looked at how lucid dreaming may assist in mindfulness training.

I've definitely seen the connection between lucid dreaming and mindfulness! Great to hear you did your thesis on the subject.

I've had a lot of very rich lucid experiences, but it's certainly been a longer and slower journey than I might have expected. I have a goal of being able to have reliable, frequent and stable lucids. Certainly not there yet. Sometimes I may have a few weeks without lucidity, some weeks I may have a few lucids. I'd guess I have about 50-60 lucids per year.

I bet we can learn something from each other. I am confident that I can nudge you in the right direction for your goal of more frequent and stable lucid dreams.

My most reliable induction method is do some amount of WBTB, then sleep in a different room and do a 61 point relaxation technique, allowing me to descend into sleep slowly then more often WILD, or perhaps DILD. I love the inbetween states that can occur on the journey to sleep this way. Trouble with it is both the effort and time to induce a lucid.

How often do you WBTB? I think this will be your biggest boost to your frequency goal! Since you mention the time and effort you might want to continue doing these WILD dives but mix in some easier techniques on other nights that you can WBTB. If you can enjoy the time awake during WBTB, that is very helpful to your motivation to get up and stay up long enough to get your brain active enough. So find something you enjoy for your time up and out of bed, if you haven't yet, and you will be able to do a full WBTB more frequently. When going back to bed you can do some simple MILD visualization. Quick MILD description: http://www.dreamviews.com/lucid-expe...ml#post2160952. Also SSILD is great for DILD's when you finish the cycles and go to sleep (you can continue it longer into WILD but that is more effort). I find SSILD works best after 4.5 hours of sleep, with 6 hours being less effective. After 6 hours I prefer heavy MILD visualizations.

Also I find if there is noise on the slow journey to sleep, I can be drawn back to senses and the waking world. I often can't find earplugs or don't feel like using them (but if I'm being determined I do). Another disadvantage is its harder to do with my partner beside me in bed. I'd like to be better at DILD to increase frequency of my lucidity and so general proficiency in the dream world, also so I can stay in my same bed.

I love earplugs and a silky sleep mask for blocking out noise and light from my wife. Keep them both bedside so you never have to look for them. By mixing in simpler DILD techniques along with the WBTB tips above you can achieve this DILD goal you mention here.

I still RC when anything strange happens but I don't do it with the frequency I used to, as I've kind of lost faith in my ability to DILD from these. I used to practice illusionary form in place of habitual reality checks which I loved doing

No worries. Continue RC's as you are doing and maybe start increasing them by adding them to a "just got lucid ritual" daytime practice. This is where you visualize becoming lucid and what you will do next like RC, stabilize, recall your goals, and perhaps visualize starting to perform your goals or even completing them - whatever feels right for the goals in question.

The structure of this workbook with feedback looks great to provide momentum, learning and something different.

I agree! Try to post here regularly.

Cool, thanks a mill for feedback

Do you leave earplugs in for much of the night and sleep on side with earplug in? I find I only put them in for some of the night and sleep on my back. Maybe it's just about getting used to the sensation. Cool that your wife emanates light

I vary with WBTB. I have lots of micros...I notice a lot of the natural micros during the night and sometimes write dreams which takes a bit of time. I've gone through good spells of doing full WBTB a couple of times a week or so. I used to meet up with a mate who was on a WBTB also which was fun.as I think of it now, instead of doing the dishes late at night, I could do them on a WBTB. Means I could get to bed earlier and so it may work on a work night. Someone said before that in the morning it feels like the dishes were done by elves. I'd like to find more good things for a WBTB to do. I find my brain is fuzzy and meditation feels less satisfying, tho the journey to sleep can be meditative.
In terms of time, I sometimes find is I may be up for an hour, spend 30/40 mins going to sleep slowly, LD hopefully, wake, spend 20 mins writing LD. Then another while getting to sleep again. All good and I often enjoy each stage of the journey,(often the inbetween states are as valuable or more so than the LD) but it's a time commitment which doesn't always fit with routine. If I could go to sleep quicker and aim for DILD it may be more conducive at times. I'll aim now to do at least one full WBTB per week

"Just got lucid" practice... I'd like to have more juice for this. It makes sense to me as a practice as will be be regularly building similar neural pathways. Yet during the day I find it hard to visualise...I rc-I'm awake...ok...as if...pupils dialate for a moment as I try and imagine, yet it feels hard to go far with it in the day to day affair and seconds later I'm somewhat out of momentum...maybe that's enough and just staying with it and becoming more familiar with it as a practice
I'll also read back up on SSILD. Seemed like a basic sensory awareness which you then let go of and it somehow carrys forward into a DILD...
MILd also I'll read back on. I always found the mantra or affirmation part of it fine. The visualising last dream and becoming lucid in I did less.

Thanks again for feedback.

Had a lucid last night

I’m in front of a projector sreen, a friend was talking to me about being able to have sex, but also that some of her friends avoid that and manage to do other things (semi lucid, as if preparing for a lucid to happen through the projector screen). I fly, somewhat through the screen, alongside others. The woman I fly towards becomes a guy and I lose the impulse for sex. I look at my hand and there are 6 or more fingers. I fly over buildings, really just enjoying speed and manoeuvrability. I try to think of what my dream goals are but am blank. As I fly I turn my hands outwards sending loving energy to all in the dream, I then turn my hands back on myself as part of this. Delighted. I fly down towards the ground, as Im close, I think of going through the ground as its made of the same matter as the air (think a bit of my goal to enter deep sleep), I plunge down under the ground 5-10 ft under…dark brown, with bits of red, stay there for 5-10 sec’s then com up. Dc there who thought was a cool flight…

Had a sense of being a long flight, but hard to remember the journey. Overall not great awareness within the dream but definitely some nice moments. As I had MILD intention, I had plan to remember dreams, I was waking pretty much every 1 ½, and even jotting v brief notes, which was fine to begin with, then I’d had enough, so stoped writing even tho I was waking. As I was waking straight after the dream I thought of DEILD but the impulse to stretch took me.

Good to start with a success. I want to increase my DILDS to increase overall time in lucidity and ease of access. It reminded me of my old impression that the clarity and sense of self remembrance is less than with WILDS. I couldn’t remember goals, which isn’t an issue with WILDS. I’ll keep practicing MILD and affirmations and see if I can get the hang of imagining lucid during the day

Originally Posted by Patjunfa

Do you leave earplugs in for much of the night and sleep on side with earplug in? I find I only put them in for some of the night and sleep on my back. Maybe it's just about getting used to the sensation.

I usually don't use the earplugs and sleep mask until the last part of the night, where I focus my LD efforts…after about 4.5 hours of sleep. At first I needed to insert the earplug that was on my primary sleep side less than the other one, sometimes putting it in like the other one and then pulling it slightly out. After a while I seem to be used to it inserted the normal way on both ears.

"Just got lucid" practice... I'd like to have more juice for this. It makes sense to me as a practice as will be be regularly building similar neural pathways. Yet during the day I find it hard to visualise...I rc-I'm awake...ok...as if...pupils dialate for a moment as I try and imagine, yet it feels hard to go far with it in the day to day affair and seconds later I'm somewhat out of momentum…

The practice is very helpful with remember goals in DILDs. There are 2 things that should give you more momentum. One is to think about how fun it would be if you were dreaming at any point during the day. For example - say there is a sexy teacher, you could do all kinds of things in the classroom right in front of everyone if you were dreaming. Or say an annoying teacher, person or situation - you could teleport to your favorite vacation spot! The possibilities are endless and imagining the impossible in the waking world can be fun. The other thing that may give you more momentum is to simulate an RC showing that you are dreaming. I like simulating 6 fingers and also the feeling of floating by lifting up on my toes while looking towards the ceiling (the effect is greater when you have a ceiling or similar surface not too far above you).

I'll also read back up on SSILD. Seemed like a basic sensory awareness which you then let go of and it somehow carrys forward into a DILD...
MILd also I'll read back on. I always found the mantra or affirmation part of it fine. The visualising last dream and becoming lucid in I did less.

SSILD - yes, which is why it can be take less time/effort than you WILD dives…perfect for when you are feeling like putting in as much effort or when you don't have the time to.

On MILD, I feel the visualization part is very powerful. It doesn't have to be a dream you just woke up from. I've used another dream from that night or another night. I've used waking life scenarios and completely made up scenarios. As long as I can visualize the scenario well, it has a high rate of success.

Congratulations on starting with an LD success!

Thanks. That's v useful feedback. I can picture how to imagine being lucid in the day better now. Think before I wasn't thinking big/creatively enough...imagine creating a portal and go somewhere deadly...cultivating excitement about anything being possible...I see the bonus goal for the month is to go to Pandora. Going to try that as it's something different than I'd usually aim towards, it's a challenging and fun idea. Also something a bit far out during the day to picture being able to do

Had another DILD last night. This DV activity is going well so far. I was looking at one of my old fights (Sanshou/Chinese boxing) in a compilation on my phone. ! Cool, I didn't think they had that fight. I do nose blow test, feels like some air. I do it a few times as it doesnt seem like a dream as its just the bedroom in the dark. I cant seal nose-cool, fingers bit different as best I can make out. Cool dreaming! I want to go to Pandora (DV bonus task of the month). I call out "lucidity boost please" and the room becomes brighter and blue sky outside window "thanks". I put hand on window, hard, hold til goes through, I'm outside somewhere, I use finger and try and draw a portal on a wall "I want to go to Pandora". doesnt work/feel different. I look for a clearer part of a wall- find a space on a hotel wall, put hand on it expeting a portel, it melts into a purple red thing, and asks for Majellas credit card. I walk on, into what seems like a market. A guy says Hi and seems to know me. I see a wall which I plan to draw a portel on, as I walk towards I feel the dream disolving. I wait to see if will reform but I end up in non lucid sleep

Nice to feel more confidence with DILD's. I was expecting to draw a portel on a wall, as this is something I'd done before, but could have tryed anywhere, or expected to find pandora behind a door I open, or even pulled out my credit card and said Pandora now. I'd love to be able to fly to Pandora, through space and past planets and expanse, but I tend to find I only get to a certain height when flying...As the dream was destabilizing, there was a moment if I had been fast enough, I could probably stabilised it, but it was quick enough. I was still and waited to see if dream would reform. Perhaps its good to visualize last scene of dream. But I find the effort of active imagination is different to just picking up the slip stream of the dream (if its near me) and following it into next dream. I may play more with active imagination to see...Going to continue with this dream task and see if I can do within January. Its more frivolous and fun orientated than my usual goals

Originally Posted by Patjunfa

...but could have tryed anywhere, or expected to find pandora behind a door I open, or even pulled out my credit card and said Pandora now.

I like your thinking here. Thinking of a different way anytime the first way gives us challenges is a useful process in lucid dreams.

I'd love to be able to fly to Pandora, through space and past planets and expanse, but I tend to find I only get to a certain height when flying...

I can't pretend that I haven't had challenges with this also, but it is definitely possible! I have flown in outer space, among planets and made a few trips to the moon. I recommend the following thread of mine which is not just for newbies: http://www.dreamviews.com/general-lu...-read-imo.html

I was still and waited to see if dream would reform. Perhaps its good to visualize last scene of dream. But I find the effort of active imagination is different to just picking up the slip stream of the dream (if its near me) and following it into next dream. I may play more with active imagination to see...

I've used both methods but I think it is a good idea to have a plan in place so that you do one or the other with maximum efficiency. For visualization you want to imagine as many senses as possible while keeping looking around fairly actively for any hints of dream formation (and avoiding eyes locked in place too long). When using the other method, waiting for a new scene to form, I recommend continuing to move or at least rub your hands while reminding yourself "I'm dreaming…I'm dreaming."

Congratulations on another DILD! Keep up the great work!

Cool, that's a good thread. Power of expectation and schema's. For a long time I used to think I could only have 1 LD a week, cause that's how it seemed to be. Then after I'd have a LD, I'd think ah...won't have another one this week. It was one of those obvious but still lightbulb moments when I realised my self constructed theory was entirely arbitrary and unhelpful and limiting and so I'm free to have any number of lucids if that happens
I think that expectation happens with lucids ending too soon. It's hard to get past sometimes. Can try plant a new belief with affirmations, but at one level it's hard to uproot an old belief until evidence shows us something different, and sowing new seeds or affirmations can be hard as being creatures of habit, it can at times be hard to really energise a new practice. Robert Waggoner has a practice where you try energising a relatively neutral aspect of your personality, such as saying, I'm the funniest guy in Ireland. After,a while he says you'll notice others picking up on this and finding you hilarious.
I'm wondering if it's the same with traveling through space. Maybe it's a difficult thing for the mind, maybe it's a limiting construct. Even if difficult, well...I can do lots of difficult things that then become easy! Has me thinking of trying this route to Pandora....think big and it may happen. If it doesn't then I'll try again or via a different route...
In recent times I think I've flown higher and had a sense of expanse, but it can sometimes alternate between being high up and close to the ground...
Anyway, I'm travelling through space tonight to Pandora, going be awesome :-)

Short WILD last night. Not v remarkable but nice anyway. Wasn't best conditions/sleep in general. Woke early enough and didn't seem to be getting back to sleep. Put on a yoga Nidra meditation, not expecting to sleep but more as a body awareness/relaxation. Had that nice floating upwards, nice sensations, took a bit for body to form and voice to feel stable. Tried getting out window but it bent outwards with me. Other bits n bobs in the dream, tried going to Pandora via doorways. In a cupboard I closed the door back on myself to black out the dream hoping Pandora would form. Some purple luminescent stripes formed giving a sense of a tiger. I had some concern about blacking out the dream and waking so I left the cupboard and went back to window where dream dissolved.
Should have committed to what was happening in cupboard, 1/2 registered doubt controlled my actions. All learning and will hopefully commit more next time or recognise doubt/concern and respond, rather than have it control me
Nice spell of lucidity this week and going to Pandora tonight!

Originally Posted by Patjunfa

Should have committed to what was happening in cupboard, 1/2 registered doubt controlled my actions. All learning and will hopefully commit more next time or recognise doubt/concern and respond, rather than have it control me

It's easy to second guess yourself. If you found Pandora through the window, then it would have been a great decision. Thinking back though, I do seem to have found the most success by trying something a little different but while staying in the same spot. You simply thinking this: "commit more next time" will help you to next time around, especially if you are also thinking about it in a positive "can do" sort of way before bed and at any WBTB.

Regarding the previous post on expectations and length of lucid: expectation is definitely a key ingredient, so try to know that you can have long lucid dreams. I don't know how you feel about supplements, but the fact that I can have long lucid dreams frequently really set in after I started experimenting with Galantamine plus Choline Bitartrate (I currently experiment with it no more than once every 2 weeks, though once every 4 days is the recommended shortest time between doses for lucid dreaming, in order to reduce possible tolerance). By knowing it is possible with the great brain chemistry the supplements provide, I found myself having consistently longer lucid dreams on nights when I was not utilizing the supplements.

thanks for all the feedback. really generous with your time.
some years ago I experimented with supplements, impressed by Yushac's advanced lucid dreaming book. I had some good results with it back then. Tryed again some time back and had mixed results. some cool flying on muccana puriens. at times felt seasick after galantamine and choline which put me off. I may try again tho, even just with alpha GPC which is meant to really extend the lenghts of lucids.

had some lucidity last night. went to bed early and full of confidence. got up, wrote dreams and went to bed in another room.
had a shortish DILD, became aware of new building near my home and twigged it. some kids there I talked to a bit then climbed up a ladder in case they hung onto me, then woke.
a while later I had a WILD. nice floating up beginning. met a friend who said she doesn't really do tai chi in dreams, I said its cool, and we did some tai chi together. connecting energy through our hands, lovely...
I went out through the window confidently. calling out my intention to go to Pandora, started flying over buildings, some funny smoky thing...started to kind of list what I'd been flying over to have a way to remember it. thinking I want to fly high up past planets, 1/2 imagining this. then woke
reimagined scenes from last part of dream but felt too awake

some nice parts to lucids, (some nice non lucids also). surprised was short tho. I didn't do much (any?) stabilisation... had in mind having a goal to move towards would keep me engaged. perhaps looking at hands or some spoken self reminders, may help keep lucidity...conscious expectation was for it to continue... though perhaps like surfing, some waves happen to just peter out...in earlier short lucid where I climbed away from kids and woke...I've noticed b4 if I try and avoid a DC I sometimes wake. I'd like (if clarity was there) to acknowledge what's there, in case its something the dream wants to say. then refocus...will build this into my daytime lucid practice/rehearsal.

when you say trying something a little different while in the same spot. do you mean if one thing doesn't work, trying a different method straight after?
I kind of wonder if it doesn't work there and then, will another attempt be pushing against the dream and perhaps be 'not listening' to the result...however maybe it just needs more creativity and or belief...i think in next lucid attempt I may call out what way will I travel to Pandora now? and follow whatever impulse arises

Originally Posted by Patjunfa

when you say trying something a little different while in the same spot. do you mean if one thing doesn't work, trying a different method straight after?
I kind of wonder if it doesn't work there and then, will another attempt be pushing against the dream and perhaps be 'not listening' to the result...however maybe it just needs more creativity and or belief...i think in next lucid attempt I may call out what way will I travel to Pandora now? and follow whatever impulse arises

Yes, if it is a goal that you really want to do then I don't see anything wrong with trying it in a different way, unless you are getting a strong indication otherwise. If you were getting a strong indication otherwise it would be interesting to ask the dream why that is. So an example of trying something different would be opening and closing the cupboard door again perhaps while calling out with confidence that Pandora will start forming followed by starting to imagine as many senses as possible that you can connect to Pandora. What sounds would you hear there? What will the various items in the forest feel like? Perhaps you have a candle, soap or other scent that you decide smells like Pandora. You decide if there is a breeze and what the temperature might be like. Alternatively you could do this without reopening the cupboard. Another tip is when you saw the luminescent stripes, you could say yes I see an animal forming…ah yes, there's his eyes, and I hear his purr/roar/whatever, I can reach out and feel his fur. And over there a leaf…and now a branch, the whole tree is forming.
You can also practice this during the day.

at times felt seasick after galantamine and choline which put me off. I may try again tho, even just with alpha GPC which is meant to really extend the lenghts of lucids.

5-HTP taken before going to bed (about 5 hours before taking Galantamine+Choline) can reduce the side effects the next day by giving you some good deep sleep during the first 5 hours. It is also intended to provide REM rebound during the final hours of your sleep, potentially giving you longer lucid experiences.

Congratulations on another DILD and WILD combo!

V cool suggestions Tnks. Has me smiling. A different way of being within lucids...exciting :-)

Nice lucid last night.
I had woken from a dream. Was trying to re-imagine the last scenes of the dream for a while. I was imagining my hands, can see a silhouette of them, move and rub together, cool, can feel them even if not formed yet, rub and clap, listening, cool, sound, they form into proper vivid dream hands “that’s how I want it”I start singing about being in a dream, walk through a corridor and theres a room full of beautiful people having dinner, lots of tables, I call out hello, they smile (“hello Patrick?”)- I say I’d like to group I’d like to have a long and stable lucid dream and want to ask for your help with this, they smile and seem to affirm, as I go to leave I repeat that I’d like it to be a long and stable dream. A woman at edge says she had a dream and starts to tell it. I fear this may distract or wake me. I walk over to her to be involved/immersed in dream and look at her in detail, she tells a dream about being on Oprah and being 57. I start to wonder how I could remember all the detail and want to leave, I walk to edge of room, shes still going. I go out into corridor again (same as earlier), I call our “I want to go to Pandora now. How will I travel there now?”. I see ahead of me, there are a few huge green cactus like branches (not spikey). OK, I go over to them and pull them over myself and turn into the dark green wall, visuals become black, becomes a giant (endless?) bracnch which I’m sliding along, I think this is meant to be Pandora at night time. Lots of golden twinkling stars appear in front of me. I call out “I want to go to the tree of souls”, the branch becomes more green (from being yellow)-I continue to travel down it, with my legs wrapped around it, cool Crystal castles music playing. I Wake

Some lovely parts of the lucid. Cool soundtrack, nice how the dream formed, the friendly group I met, and the request to go to Pandora being met somewhat. I’d more in mind for my goal to go to Pandora though. I’d like to have a long enough adventure on Pandora (looking more like Pandora), meet with the Navi and go to the Tree of souls (meant to be the Navis closest connection to Eywa). Not sure at the moment will I keep this as a goal. Spiked my interest as it’s the bonus task in the tasks for the month. Funny how that adds to enthusiasm. Been able to play with this during the day, faking RC’s failing and getting enthusiastic about maybe making a portal or blasting into space. (I want to develop this daytime practice and find ways to add more juice to it, as still only v brief but still useful I think). Think I will try again to go to Pandora and connect to the tree of souls and maybe play with the Navi, at least until the end of the month.

Asides from that, had one other short DILD during the week and a couple of nights setting good intent and MILD attempts without success. Tried SSILD last night without Lucid carryover. Felt nice and meditative and woke feeling v settled. With SSILD, do I sent any intent/mantra or just cycle with the senses (sight, sound and touch). As I think of it, trying SSILD earlier in night, prob helped with later forming of dream and bringing in senses. Overall having a good spell of lucidity and cultivating the expectation of becoming lucid at night.

Originally Posted by Patjunfa

Nice lucid last night.
I had woken from a dream. Was trying to re-imagine the last scenes of the dream for a while. I was imagining my hands, can see a silhouette of them, move and rub together, cool, can feel them even if not formed yet, rub and clap, listening, cool, sound, they form into proper vivid dream hands “that’s how I want it”I start singing about being in a dream

Very nice job Patjunfas! This sounds like a good process for you anytime you feel like you've woken up. Singing in your LD is always a good sign and you got a soundtrack too which is always nice. The trip down the branch sounded cool and the golden twinkling stars, and trees…I have an affinity for trees for some reason.

With SSILD, do I sent any intent/mantra or just cycle with the senses (sight, sound and touch).

Traditionally no, but I see nothing wrong with experimenting with that. I think it could help if done before the cycles, or possibly even after the cycles, if you don't fall asleep right away.

Keep up the great progress

Not been the most active week for framing for a few reasons. Bit of a cold, heavy sinuses so nighttime not spacious. Also painting in bedroom so in the spare room now. I find I commit more to practice when after some length of WBTB I change rooms and sleep the last part of the night alone. Going to get some different earplugs as better ones may give more confidence without perfect conditions.

Had a shortish DILD almost a week ago and v short WILD early in night couple of days ago. Neither particularly noteworthy. Great night last night. No lucidity but still v satisfying. I'd Planned to experiment with some ALpha GPC but had a dream that I took as being negative about this. Wrote dreams a few times during the night, which I've been too lazy to do recently. Lots of fun non lucids, running along b side my old cat, in a manor like in princess Mononoke. Weird fights like from a computer game. Fun.
Been good reading through some others lucids on DV...getting a broader sense of of options with LD's.

Things I'd like to do to help my practice
Experiment more with imaging being lucid in day. Did seem useful last week. Mulling on the difference between regular reality checking practice and regular faking reality check practice. Perhaps regular reality checks build a habit of confirming that your not lucid, whereas faking it may create a new pathway of. "I look at my hands and I'm lucid" . Seems easier to do as a practice when excited about a dream goal or the potential of lucidity.
My other thing to do is try and be clearer on what current dream goals are. Pandora was a fun goal. Didn't get as far with it as I'd like which was to go to the tree of souls. Other TOTM, getting onto an alien spaceship has that fun/far out quality as does one of the potential tasks for next month, meet the Buddha. Such fun motivations feel like they help my goal of becoming more dexterous and familiar with lucidity which will hopefully help with other goals of having awareness in deep sleep and being able to inhabit other creations within the dream and not identifying with the dream ego/projecting separation into my experience (had one nice dream of this nature).
Going to order earplugs today as part of momentum

Originally Posted by Patjunfa

Also painting in bedroom so in the spare room now.

I guess as you said with cold, haven't been as effortful but could be interesting to play a bit with autosuggestion in the downtime. Especially just playing on the potentially spiked awareness of being in a totally different room. Along with the fact that some of your WILDs & false awakenings start off from your bedroom or the bed/buddabag you've switched to. ...or just to really spike awareness and sleep in your bed carefully while the painting is drying (if you don't fumigate yourself by doing so).

Originally Posted by Patjunfa

I'd Planned to experiment with some ALpha GPC but had a dream that I took as being negative about this.... Lots of fun non lucids, running along b side my old cat, in a manor like in princess Mononoke. Weird fights like from a computer game. Fun. ...and not identifying with the dream ego/projecting separation into my experience (had one nice dream of this nature).

Aw beautiful - esp the princess mononoke influence. Look forward to hearing more about meaningful/ noteworthy dreams at some stage or when back.

Intrigued by stringing this simulated RC along with Robert's & fogelbise's advice (recent post on my workbook) on uprooting & replacing expectations with seeds of ease and smoothness, and expecting a certain standard of awareness regarding states and induction methods.

Enjoy using consumerism to fuel lucid drive, it's a good one!

Originally Posted by fogelbise

Traditionally no, but I see nothing wrong with experimenting with that. I think it could help if done before the cycles, or possibly even after the cycles, if you don't fall asleep right away.

I just wanted to add something in case you experiment with SSILD. If you do add in any intent/mantra after the cycles, I would recommend to keep it light as you want to keep on track on your journey to sleep. SSILD sometimes creates a trance-like feeling and often brings up strong HH's. I find that intent and mantras are more powerful in the HH stage and that interesting questions and answers can be discovered during HH's, dreamlets and what may sometimes be NREM.

Originally Posted by Patjunfa

Going to get some different earplugs as better ones may give more confidence without perfect conditions.

I like the soft/supple ones with a high decibel rating. Sometimes I have to loosen them a bit for comfort or also to avoid missing my alarm…haha.

Had a shortish DILD almost a week ago and v short WILD early in night couple of days ago. Neither particularly noteworthy. Great night last night. No lucidity but still v satisfying. I'd Planned to experiment with some ALpha GPC but had a dream that I took as being negative about this. Wrote dreams a few times during the night, which I've been too lazy to do recently. Lots of fun non lucids, running along b side my old cat, in a manor like in princess Mononoke. Weird fights like from a computer game. Fun.

Great!..some lucidity and some enjoyable non lucid dreams as well, which are valuable as well.

Been good reading through some others lucids on DV...getting a broader sense of of options with LD's.

Absolutely, this can be useful…just be mindful of what Aaronoscar & I talked about in his workbook for any occasions that you read something negative in someone's workbook (how some challenge or problem they had doesn't have to translate to your dreams!).

Things I'd like to do to help my practice
Experiment more with imaging being lucid in day. Did seem useful last week. Mulling on the difference between regular reality checking practice and regular faking reality check practice. Perhaps regular reality checks build a habit of confirming that your not lucid, whereas faking it may create a new pathway of.

I agree that creating these new neural pathways or reinforcing existing ones may be the mechanism working here. I do both kinds of reality checks thinking that there has to be value in the original way of doing RC's as well.

Such fun motivations feel like they help my goal of becoming more dexterous and familiar with lucidity...

I wholeheartedly agree.

Originally Posted by aaronoscar

Intrigued by stringing this simulated RC along with Robert's & fogelbise's advice (recent post on my workbook) on uprooting & replacing expectations with seeds of ease and smoothness, and expecting a certain standard of awareness regarding states and induction methods.

Indeed. I liked your feedback that was in your workbook regarding this and the tie in to Robert's advice.

Lovely Lucid last night. Long, stable and clear. I’ve a bit of a new habit of SSILD earlier in night and then MILD on l8r awakenings (same as what you do Fogelbise…v suggestible :-)). Really liking SSILD even for the lovely meditative transition into sleep and the rest that brings. Its interesting having transitioned from primarily relying on WILD, which I love but is a bigger commitment, to DILD, which is easier to fit in and I’m having more lucids :-)… We have a small LD group meeting up in a couple of days, where I live, so last night I had motivation to bring some recent lucidity and inspiration to the group. Did short WBTB with a bit of Tai Chi. Then the following DILD. Meant when I woke it was 5.40, I wrote for 45 mins, and at 6.25 decided to get up. Lovely walk, stars still out, reflecting on how dreamlike and malleable perception is. Time when back for a nice meditation then getting the kids up. Much earlier than I’d have chosen to start the day, but lovely.

In dream my wife was taping me awake/banging off me, she was then doing Yoga, seemed v early in the morning for this. I look at the clock, its v cool looking and unreadable. Dreaming! Cool…can’t remember early part, hands on a ledge, look at hands, v stable. Reflect on sensation of being banged off and still staying asleep. Think dream plan-Call out “dream show me something important I need to see”- don’t remember, colour change or something that doesn’t feel v significant. Think of other tasks…TOTM, read a book with secrets written on it, ok, look in bedside looker- 1st book, small hardback black book, says secrets on it- then word gone/unreadable-Doh…look in it anyway out of curiosity, lovely dyed pinkish pages, pop up book at parts, like a nose and other things, wonder how would I remember all these images/drawings. Put it back and look for other books with secret written on it- My Wife and sister in room, My Mum there, looking like she did 30 years ago, I give her a hug. As they are going downstairs, I say a bit ackwardly about the other TOTM where a DC gives me a task to do outside. Woman/ Granny, like my neighbours mum says yes but what about the trinity? Seems annoyed and religious. Ok…weird…I’ll leave. Bit cold/raining outside. No runners on. I start to look for them-realise it’s a dream and they will arrive or will be fine. My boxing boots are on as I walk out-into a room with some lads- easy going good connection with. Seems fine to ask them. Say about TOTM where in a LD have to ask a DC for a task to do outside. Theyre curious…I say its for a forum online and you get wings…it’s a bit silly but its fun and motivates you a bit (move from feeling a bit daft to ok with it), guy says yeh he gets it. I say can be anything, he holds an orange lighter at an angle and sparks it “like this?” and clicks it again. I say perfect thanks. Loads of guys there, all seem sound. Think about asking them about something to do with dream world/If they are DC’s, feels somehow may end the dream. Think of other task of turning dream to back and white- would it be ok? Think of Sivasons post-everything being colour and projection and substanceless. OK Black and white…2 sides of the room (like a vertical band, about 10 % of room, goes b&W. Try again, same…band moves-A DC gets some B&W on face and hair-guy lying down has kilt up, grey hair and balls. Seems annoyed/grumpy old man. Other DC’s laugh. I head back into a different building/homeward. Thinking about how long and stable a dream this is and if should wake in order to be able to remember it but decide to keep going. Go through a turnstile type of thing. My Wife turns over in bed against me and I wake

Very nice Patjunfa! Good memory of several different TOTM's as well!

Originally Posted by Patjunfa

Lovely Lucid last night. Long, stable and clear. I’ve a bit of a new habit of SSILD earlier in night and then MILD on l8r awakenings

What does the breakdown of your night look like when using this combination? (doing SSILD at what stage? how much later for MILD?)

Really liking SSILD even for the lovely meditative transition into sleep and the rest that brings. Its interesting having transitioned from primarily relying on WILD, which I love but is a bigger commitment, to DILD, which is easier to fit in and I’m having more lucids :-)…

SSILD does seem to me to be a special technique and yes, working in DILDs to your practice can definitely increase LD frequency.

We have a small LD group meeting up in a couple of days, where I live, so last night I had motivation to bring some recent lucidity and inspiration to the group.

I'm jealous! I only have one friend that is really interested and involved with lucid dreaming and I only see that friend a few times a year. This is great that you have such a group!..I recommend to work however you can at keeping it going. Around my parts there should be demand for such a group and I've seen meet-up groups posted online but they seem to only have a few people saying they will attend and seem to become inactive shortly after starting.

Lovely walk, stars still out, reflecting on how dreamlike and malleable perception is.

I love walking under the stars, though there are a few too many city lights where I am most of the time. Over the last 4 years of my lucid dreaming practice I have come to what sounds like the same kind of realization regarding the malleable nature of waking life perception. I see so much more beauty, in unexpected places and in unexpected ways, far more frequently now.

Thinking about how long and stable a dream this is and if should wake in order to be able to remember it but decide to keep going. Go through a turnstile type of thing. My Wife turns over in bed against me and I wake

I suggest to always assume that you are experiencing HH's or a full on FA whenever you feel like your Wife is waking you up. If you are being woken by your Wife moving, then this assumption can assist you in DEILDing. Same thing with HH's. If you are actually in an FA (which is very common after doing SSILD) then you can discover that you are in a new dream scene and be lucid once again! It sounded like this dream started as an FA with your wife waking you in bed and you noticing the weird clock. At the end of the dream, the fact that moments before you were thinking about waking up in order to remember all of your adventures further suggests that this could have triggered an FA initially, perhaps turning into an actual awakening at some point. Please don't think of this a negative, but rather a positive angle for you to pursue even more lucidity in the future if you are not ready to wake up and record your adventures.

Still nice feeling from such a solid lucid. Funny how next night, went to bed psyched with a dream goal, even mild WBTB and only a couple of lines of recall in morning...No gaurentees or real predictability in this.

What does the breakdown of your night look like when using this combination? (doing SSILD at what stage? how much later for MILD?)

I tend to do SSILD if I wake after 3 or 4 1/2 hours. Brought me into a WILD one time after about 2 1/2 hrs sleep. Any other wakings I tend to do MILD at the moment.

I'm jealous! I only have one friend that is really interested and involved with lucid dreaming and I only see that friend a few times a year. This is great that you have such a group!..I recommend to work however you can at keeping it going.

Yeh, quite fortunate. Its only a small group and in its infancy. A few other people interested in Lucid dreaming. Mostly not getting lucid yet but building potential. We organised a weekend workshop, with Robert Waggoner last Oct, here in the village myself and Aaronoscar live. Hope the others stay into it. Having a mate into lucid dreaming has made it so much more fun. Getting to meet on WBTB's, share lucid's and reflections. Easier to learn anything in contact with others...

If you are being woken by your Wife moving, then this assumption can assist you in DEILDing. Same thing with HH's. If you are actually in an FA (which is very common after doing SSILD) then you can discover that you are in a new dream scene and be lucid once again! It sounded like this dream started as an FA with your wife waking you in bed and you noticing the weird clock. At the end of the dream, the fact that moments before you were thinking about waking up in order to remember all of your adventures further suggests that this could have triggered an FA initially, perhaps turning into an actual awakening at some point.

Its something I've tryed to compulsively RC after being woken, or whenever I do wake after attempting Lucid. It was a frequent FA thinking someone was waking me. Unfortunatly, despite intentions to RC, I often fall into proper FA...Its interesting that I was considering waking before an event actually did wake me...If I hadn't thought of it, perhaps I'd have slept through it?. How would I use it for a DEILD? Just aim to remain still and go into a DEILD, visualizing dream etc. As said in a previous post, the odd time this works lovely, but sometimes it feels the train has speeded off without me and I'm totally awake...Perhaps its something to respond to quicker and expect to be able to DEILD...

Originally Posted by Patjunfa

Still nice feeling from such a solid lucid. Funny how next night, went to bed psyched with a dream goal, even mild WBTB and only a couple of lines of recall in morning...No gaurentees or real predictability in this.

I love the "afterglow" of a good lucid dream! I know yours was good with you still feeling it a few days later!

Regarding the guarantees or predictability of becoming lucid, I hear you! It does get more predictable with sustained practice according to my own experience and others I've talked to on Dreamviews. The following is from the "About Me" tab on my profile page here on Dreamviews:

LD Count Total at each anniversary + % increase to rate of LDs
2/1/14 @103 total LDs
2/1/15 @274 +66% rate of LDs by end of year two
2/1/16 @441 -2% temporary plateau through year three
2/1/17 @655 +28% improving LD rate again through year four

I am guessing that I plateaued in year 3 of my practice due to becoming complacent; being happy enough with the rate of my lucid dreams. When I saw that plateau, it was a wake up call for me to do better so now I try to keep a closer eye on how I am doing throughout the year. For me, effort and the enthusiasm that feeds that effort play a significant part in how consistently I keep up my day and nighttime practices.

Yeh, quite fortunate. Its only a small group and in its infancy. A few other people interested in Lucid dreaming. Mostly not getting lucid yet but building potential. We organised a weekend workshop, with Robert Waggoner last Oct, here in the village myself and Aaronoscar live. Hope the others stay into it. Having a mate into lucid dreaming has made it so much more fun. Getting to meet on WBTB's, share lucid's and reflections. Easier to learn anything in contact with others...

Awesome! Really, really valuable in my eyes!

Its something I've tryed to compulsively RC after being woken, or whenever I do wake after attempting Lucid. It was a frequent FA thinking someone was waking me. Unfortunatly, despite intentions to RC, I often fall into proper FA...Its interesting that I was considering waking before an event actually did wake me...If I hadn't thought of it, perhaps I'd have slept through it?

Definitely possible…but then again you might not have captured as much detail for what had happened so far in your lucid if you hadn't woken up - so not a bad thing at all. Regarding intentions to catch FA's: I hear you and it does seem to be true that we may have to choose what we want to focus our intentions on so that the intentions are not diluted by too many different intentions. I personally wouldn't make FA's a priority, but keeping FA's in mind as a possibility may help you to catch an FA here and there. The reason I wouldn't make FA's a priority is because they tend to be short lived for me, occurring near the end of a REM cycle and thus not as much time left in the REM cycle to be lucid in.

How would I use it for a DEILD? Just aim to remain still and go into a DEILD, visualizing dream etc.

Yes like that, plus by considering any movements from your wife or noises that could be from waking life as HH's instead, it can help keep you more in the dreamy state and away from expecting to be fully awake. When I was focusing on DEILDs I was getting more DEILDs this way. Later I started focusing on what I call pre-DEILD where any fading of the dream I expect is just temporary and transition from the dark formless void into a new scene, instead of expecting to wake up and needing to DEILD. I would suggest to start with whichever one sounds best for you at this time (DEILD or pre-DEILD) as this is another good way to increase lucid experience (but only when you are ready to shift the focus of your intention or if you feel you can add one more intention reliably).

As said in a previous post, the odd time this works lovely, but sometimes it feels the train has speeded off without me and I'm totally awake...Perhaps its something to respond to quicker and expect to be able to DEILD...

If your brain is ready to wake up for the day it may be an uphill battle, but other times you can manage a DEILD or pre-DEILD. You can develop a sense for which is the case over time, but in the meantime it doesn't hurt to assume that you have a good chance to go back in...to a dream lucid.

Great feedback again. Tnks.
Yeh, nice afterglow. That's what I'm aiming for, really stable and clear lucids with the confidence in them that I can just keep exploring and playing

Really interesting to see your progression in LD count. Sometimes I've had the impression that people (inc me)reach a certain standard which doesn't change much. Your stats totally show opposite as true. Gives me hope of continuing to develop to the level of proficiency that I really want.

V interesting what you say about DEILD. I had a lucid with DEILD last night perhaps primed by having read your post. ..had being having a spontaneous lucid ..Woke, not wide awake but dream not that close by either. Remembered last visual of dream, remembered feeling in fingers of the wall I was climbing and after a bit dream reformed. Felt good to be more habitual with bringing different senses into visualisation. Lucid not too remarkable and went down an old an pleasant cul de sac
Would like to understand more what you mean on DEILDs. Plan to read up on it. Is it expecting that if dream wakes that will remain in formless void? Makes sense. Yet at the time I know sometimes I'm just suddenly so awake it feels like having to go to sleep from start...doesnt feel time to catch the transition.perhaps planting the seed of DEILD or pre DEILD will have an effect non the less. Like last night...

Originally Posted by Patjunfa

V interesting what you say about DEILD. I had a lucid with DEILD last night perhaps primed by having read your post.

Very nice! Congratulations! It's these kinds of things that will get you on the path to where you want to be with proficiency as you say.

..had being having a spontaneous lucid ..Woke, not wide awake but dream not that close by either. Remembered last visual of dream, remembered feeling in fingers of the wall I was climbing and after a bit dream reformed. Felt good to be more habitual with bringing different senses into visualisation.

Great job!

Would like to understand more what you mean on DEILDs. Plan to read up on it. Is it expecting that if dream wakes that will remain in formless void? Makes sense. Yet at the time I know sometimes I'm just suddenly so awake it feels like having to go to sleep from start...doesnt feel time to catch the transition.perhaps planting the seed of DEILD or pre DEILD will have an effect non the less. Like last night...

Exactly, if you plant a strong enough seed…a strong enough intention to continue to lucid dream, you will start to look for the opportunities to continue "staying under" whenever a dream seems to be fading. If you expect to stay asleep and dreaming, you have a much better chance of not waking up. I think the biggest challenge for most people is that they are expecting to wake up and until they can get over that, then DEILD is the next best thing...and a pretty awesome option at that…way better than assuming that every time it feels like you are waking up that you actually do.

Sometimes I feel the dream fading and I can get the visuals going again in the same scene - ah there it is forming…coming back I might say to myself influencing it to come back. Sometimes it fades to a complete black void but keeping my dream body moving and I either wait for the next dream to form...or preferably I actively influence the dream that will form by seeding what I want to see, kind of like the way you "remembered feeling in fingers of the wall I was climbing." My favorite is imagining the sounds of gentle waves lapping up on the beach along with the feeling of the water on my toes and the salt and cool air on my face and tongue. You would want to use your favorite "happy place" though. Let me know if you still have questions and once again, great job!