Thread: Say Good-bye to Short LDs

LDthat lasted an hour to a hourand and a half!
I just knew I was lucid right after a WBTB. I didn't fall asleep till 5:30. It felt like this LD lasted hours!!! I RCed SOO many times! I was in a carnival in one, carries friend was trying to hide her gift under a blue bucket, and then later Carrie flattened it. One I was in school and everyone was trying to stop me cause I went down to the gym, then out the gym door to try to sneak outside, but there was some banquet on the stage so I got caught... I think I might have accidentally killed someone, because everyone even my sister and cousin and aunt were asking me to stop. Then my sister showed me something on her droid, so I just calmed down a bit, but I was still jumping everywhere! IN one part every teacher started class by being on the toilet and I saw their legs, then they flushed. It was weird and gross. IN one part my dad was driving me places and I was telling him it was a dream, and he was like "nahhh" but then I told him to look at the clock in the car, it said 7:77! That was obviously wrong, and I wasn't asleep that long yet! There were a whole bunch of hobos in this little campground full of old cabins. All their clocks were saying weird times and I remembered, and said, then numbers on clocks can’t add up higher than 23. And then someone said something like how hard it would be to open a safe. In another part I was in an amusement park! There were a couple rides and I wanted to show people this was a dream. I went on this one where it is a big circle being held up by something like a crane, and it spun in circles. There were little seats on the circle too. I told some girls this was a dream, and only one girl stayed on with me. I started swinging the ride around and she was scared then I totally flipped it upside down and she fall of and went "Splaaat!" I hopped off the ride and saw a pile of goo. So I put my hands over it and started reviving it! Then she came back to life! I also saw some rollercoaster that went off its tracks but it hooks back on its tracks after about a 10ft jump! And there was one roller coaster that went up real high, the tracks disappeared, and it latches onto a Blimp and the blimp carries it to the other side where the tracks start again~! (Scary amusement park for people who don't know it's a dream!) In another part I was in my basement and I found something that I wanted to spear someone with, and I went up my stairs and threw it at my cousin Brandon. (It was some like toy gun that's actually a pen so it’s long and narrow.) Then I was in my mom’s bathroom and she was in there on the counter and I was trying to seduce her and she liked it. I would have to RC ever so often because I didn't want to forget I was dreaming. But every time I look away for a sec, she would disappear! And then I'd go into a different part of the house and I'd find her. Then I'd take her back, and we'd try again. She said we should try in the bathtub, but the water was a grayish-brown color and it was just dark and scary, so I was like nahh let's not go in there. I put her up on the counter sitting down and I was doing stuff then she said look in the mirror. (There are two mirrors on my counter that can open and shut, so one of them was open, making the mirrors reflect each other, looking weird.) I could see myself and her in the mirrors, but I looked away quickly just so I didn't see anything scary. (But me and her both looked normal, so it was ok! lol.) Then in the carnival place, there was some ground so I wanted to try to earth bend. It was hard though because there was that clear kind of carpet on top of the ground and there were pipes! So I tried it, lifting my hands like I was lifting the earth, but I only bent some pipes and the carpet stuff. Earth bending is really hard, haha. I need to practice that!

That's from my DJ. Sorry, I didn't transition well between different parts of the dream, so it probably looks like one big wall of text. I didn't write in there that I used CosmicIron's floor crawl method, but I did that, then I did all the nose RC's.

[*]Immediately perform stabilization techniques upon becoming lucid.
[*]Immediately break away from previous dream plot and current dream environment after performing stabilization techniques.
[*]Always direct your focus to external objects and events. Never think about your physical body.

All great points, my main problems come from forgetting to do these things.

[*]Resist rational thoughts.

I'm sorry, as useful as the rest of your guide is, this is simply awful advice. Lucidity is the introduction of rationality into a dream, resisting rational thought is paramount to brushing off lucidity you've worked so hard to achieve. Personally I find lack of awareness to be a much greater barrier in achieving goals than dream scene stability. Why should rational thoughts be avoided?

[*]Do not talk to yourself.

Verbal commands are very useful in stabilising, everything you say in a dream is said to yourself.

[*]Do not fly all the time. Walking is recommended mean to travel.

Again misguided. Where is the use of walking in an environment where physical distance exists only as mental construct of the individual's expectation? Any location is only as far away as an act of intent. Taking this into account, flying is also unintuitive as it presupposes the need for travelling physical distance. In dreams there is only mental distance. I find walking to be very risky, in walking there is no A-B ('I am here and I want to arrive there'), each step requires effort, you're constantly apart of the scene around you that is separating you from your desired destination, I find walking to be a minefield of possible distractions and lost lucidity. Not constructive for stability.

[*]Treat small tasks as immediate goals. For example, walking down that stair should be considered a "goal"; touching and examine that object should be considered a "goal".

This is good advice, a beginner lucid dreamer should continuously establish new goals to avoid being drawn back into a non-lucid plot

Originally Posted by nina

Actually, it IS possible, and I've done it, many times. I have had nights where I spent up to 4 hours at a time lucid dreaming. This is possible physiologically because REM is not the ONLY time that we dream. People can also dream in NREM, the dreams are just no where near as vivid or dreamlike as REM, but there have been many times when I have been lucid dreaming for a whole REM period, then enter a period of NREM, and continue to dream, and during NREM I seem to have a lot of OBE-type dreams, but I stay completely lucid and eventually enter another REM period, which usually comes quickly (I think I am somehow forcing my brain into REM by focusing on forming a dream and stimulating certain areas of my brain). The longest I have done this for is 4 hours, and I've done it several times.

Did you feel any fatigue after that, did it take effort? I'm wondering if it's possible to have fully restful sleep after 4 hours of lucid dreaming. On focusing on areas of the brain, that reminds me that in a recent lucid dream I felt the dream collapsing and when I lost visuals focused on fast forward motion, like my whole body was being propelled froward. A new dream scene formed but during that motion I felt a sort of mechanical scraping in the centre of my brain, I'm not sure if it was a hallucination or an actual physiological response in my sleeping brain.

Originally Posted by Ctharlhie

Did you feel any fatigue after that, did it take effort? I'm wondering if it's possible to have fully restful sleep after 4 hours of lucid dreaming.

I've never felt fatigue after a night of lucid dreaming. The only times I've ever felt fatigued from LDing were while napping in the afternoon, where I would have what I used to call marathon lucid naps and chain a dozen or so LDs over the course of 1.5 - 2 hours. It would become incredibly exhausting after the 2 hour mark, and I would usually choose to just stop and allow myself to wake up at that point because I'm too tired to continue sleeping, an odd notion, I realize. When I would finally wake up, sometimes I was so exhausted that I would literally have to roll out of bed. I believe that the reason I would become so exhausted during those naps, was because my body would often times enter and exit SP in between some of the LDs, so I would be going in and out of SP/vibrational state several times within just an hour or so, and I assume this might be physically taxing on the body's systems in some way. At least, that's the only explanation I can think of. But when I spend hours LDing at night, I usually remain in SP for most of the time, and only enter and exit a few times during natural transitions to and from REM to NREM.

Originally Posted by Ctharlhie

On focusing on areas of the brain, that reminds me that in a recent lucid dream I felt the dream collapsing and when I lost visuals focused on fast forward motion, like my whole body was being propelled froward. A new dream scene formed but during that motion I felt a sort of mechanical scraping in the centre of my brain, I'm not sure if it was a hallucination or an actual physiological response in my sleeping brain.

Yes, that's it exactly, I like how you describe it as fast forward. Basically I focus my attention and my gaze upwards and forward...and it pulls me into a lucid dream much quicker when I do this. It will often feel as though I am accelerating forward. I can actually feel when the area of activation in my brain changes, from the middle central area, to the front. I assume you're able to sense this due to a lack of external stimuli, which greatly tunes you into any internal changes, as well as the magnitude of synchronous neural firing during these physiological changes. The neural oscillations usually start for me in the middle central area, and when I focus forward, the oscillations clearly move to a position in my frontal lobe. At this point, the dream starts, so I assume both of these regions of the brain must be important in sleep/lucidity.

Originally Posted by nina

I've never felt fatigue after a night of lucid dreaming. The only times I've ever felt fatigued from LDing were while napping in the afternoon, where I would have what I used to call marathon lucid naps and chain a dozen or so LDs over the course of 1.5 - 2 hours. It would become incredibly exhausting after the 2 hour mark, and I would usually choose to just stop and allow myself to wake up at that point because I'm too tired to continue sleeping, an odd notion, I realize. When I would finally wake up, sometimes I was so exhausted that I would literally have to roll out of bed. I believe that the reason I would become so exhausted during those naps, was because my body would often times enter and exit SP in between some of the LDs, so I would be going in and out of SP/vibrational state several times within just an hour or so, and I assume this might be physically taxing on the body's systems in some way. At least, that's the only explanation I can think of. But when I spend hours LDing at night, I usually remain in SP for most of the time, and only enter and exit a few times during natural transitions to and from REM to NREM.

You seem to have indirectly achieved the aim of sleep yoga, to remain aware of all stages of sleep, I'd love to get to that level of lucid dreaming some day
Why don't you make a tutorial on how you WILD and DILD, it would be a great read.

Yes, that's it exactly, I like how you describe it as fast forward. Basically I focus my attention and my gaze upwards and forward...and it pulls me into a lucid dream much quicker when I do this. It will often feel as though I am accelerating forward. I can actually feel when the area of activation in my brain changes, from the middle central area, to the front. I assume you're able to sense this due to a lack of external stimuli, which greatly tunes you into any internal changes, as well as the magnitude of synchronous neural firing during these physiological changes. The neural oscillations usually start for me in the middle central area, and when I focus forward, the oscillations clearly move to a position in my frontal lobe. At this point, the dream starts, so I assume both of these regions of the brain must be important in sleep/lucidity.

It's interesting that you think that the sensations are due to becoming in tune with internal stimuli as that seems consistent with my experiences of sleep paralysis, during DEILD my brain seems to go haywire with chaotic whirring, buzzing and bleeping, it sounds like an old-fashioned dialup connection If I try to remain aware of the transition to sleep when first going to bed I seem to get a few glimpses of this state, including exploding head syndrome. I've researched EHS and the scientific community seems to be at loss as to what it is, if only more neurologists were oneironauts.

Originally Posted by Ctharlhie

You seem to have indirectly achieved the aim of sleep yoga, to remain aware of all stages of sleep, I'd love to get to that level of lucid dreaming some day
Why don't you make a tutorial on how you WILD and DILD, it would be a great read.

Well for me it comes and goes and really just depends on my sleep schedule, so it's not like I can do it every night. I think sometimes I just get lucky. But I feel like there are already so many WILD/DILD tutorials even just on this forum that I wouldn't be able to add too much new content to make it worth the time it would take to write.

Originally Posted by Ctharlhie

It's interesting that you think that the sensations are due to becoming in tune with internal stimuli as that seems consistent with my experiences of sleep paralysis, during DEILD my brain seems to go haywire with chaotic whirring, buzzing and bleeping, it sounds like an old-fashioned dialup connection If I try to remain aware of the transition to sleep when first going to bed I seem to get a few glimpses of this state, including exploding head syndrome. I've researched EHS and the scientific community seems to be at loss as to what it is, if only more neurologists were oneironauts.

Exactly, I describe it very similarly, like a hard drive booting up. Also, I don't know if you've seen this thread before, or even if you've replied, but just in case you missed it, I basically explain my initial discovery of and exact method for using the fast forward thing we are discussing (I don't want to hijack CosmicIron's thread): http://www.dreamviews.com/f79/quickl...43/index3.html

Also, Exploding Head Syndrome is one of the things I probably hate most in this world. But I have formulated a few theories about what the eff is going on and even managed to stiffle it with a quick fix: http://www.dreamviews.com/f41/violen...lution-120785/ (and I just noticed you "liked" that thread so nevermind! lol)

Originally Posted by nina

Well for me it comes and goes and really just depends on my sleep schedule, so it's not like I can do it every night. I think sometimes I just get lucky. But I feel like there are already so many WILD/DILD tutorials even just on this forum that I wouldn't be able to add too much new content to make it worth the time it would take to write.

I guess I'll see where I stand in 5 years time, I forget that even the most experienced oneironauts started out where I am now at some time.

Exactly, I describe it very similarly, like a hard drive booting up. Also, I don't know if you've seen this thread before, or even if you've replied, but just in case you missed it, I basically explain my initial discovery of and exact method for using the fast forward thing we are discussing (I don't want to hijack CosmicIron's thread): http://www.dreamviews.com/f79/quickl...43/index3.html

Yeah I have read/commented in that thread. I've even experimented with the technique with some tantalising near-successes, but I didn't know as much about the process of WILDing then, maybe I'll return to it and see if I have more success. I hadn't quite linked the activation of 'that area' (the pineal gland? Who knows) with my DEILD experiences, but you've definitely hit on something in attaching the WILDing process to some organ of the brain.

Also, Exploding Head Syndrome is one of the things I probably hate most in this world. But I have formulated a few theories about what the eff is going on and even managed to stiffle it with a quick fix: http://www.dreamviews.com/f41/violen...lution-120785/ (and I just noticed you "liked" that thread so nevermind! lol)

I've never had it severely enough for it to be a problem. ^^;

Anyway, I think we'd better stop here so we don't derail Cosmic's stablisation thread

I guess there are no shortage of grand masters on this forum, so my amateurish content will be of little value if not misleading. I have requested this thread deleted and I'm leaving DV. Good luck lucid dreamers!

Originally Posted by Ctharlhie

Did you feel any fatigue after that, did it take effort? I'm wondering if it's possible to have fully restful sleep after 4 hours of lucid dreaming.

For what it's worth, I just came off a 2-1/2 to 3 hr LD session and my head is pounding and I'm exhausted (I am in a really good mood, though). I think this response sort of corresponds to what Nina said about her afternoon naps, as the session was well after my night's sleep. Oh, and yes, the last hour or so was a long series of hard-fought extensions, so there was definitely some effort; if that was what you meant.

Since it happened this morning, I thought I'd throw it in, even if a bit late.

Originally Posted by CosmicIron

I guess there are no shortage of grand masters on this forum, so my amateurish content will be of little value if not misleading. I have requested this thread deleted and I'm leaving DV. Good luck lucid dreamers!

Sorry to hear that, CosmicIron -- the rivers can run deeply here, and swiftly. I had always thought that a good thing, learning-wise, but to each his own. Good luck!

I also hope that the thread stays up, as the conversation seems to have some real value in it.

Nina:

I should have mentioned this earlier -- like after you said it, but Ctharlhie makes an excellent point about the sleep yoga thing:

I'm sure you already know this, but if you are able to carry your awareness through NREM, you're effectively practicing dream yoga. If you are able to essentially WILD right when you go to bed at night, carry your awareness through that first long stretch of delta phase sleep (NREM), and then through the night, you are indeed experiencing sleep yoga.

This is significant, and I think it would be nice if you might lend your experiences to Hermine_Hesse's (my favorite moniker here, BTW) Dream Yoga Experiences thread. Dream yoga is an achievement in itself, but if you're doing sleep yoga, even accidentally or occasionally, I think we'd all win if we could both hear about and pick your brain about your experiences. Especially me, because sleep yoga is a long-term project of mine. So I guess my request is a bit self-serving... oh well. Plus, if those monks living in Tibetan caves trying to just master sleep yoga have computers (and I'd bet some do) happen read about it, it'll really piss 'em off!

So if you have the time, it would be great if you could share. Sorry I didn't ask earlier!

I don't agree with everything that everyone has been discussing here. There is a lot of open ground regarding lucid stabilty and techniques. I have personally asked CosmicIron to stay as he has made a great contribution to the forum with his SSILD induction.

Well if you don't agree, post away! We don't get mad at other people for having different views, it is all for the growth of LDing, no? And for the spiritual ones the growth of the spirit too. And who knows, maybe it is actually agreement with misunderstandings?

Originally Posted by Hukif

Well if you don't agree, post away! We don't get mad at other people for having different views, it is all for the growth of LDing, no? And for the spiritual ones the growth of the spirit too. And who knows, maybe it is actually agreement with misunderstandings?

I have been working for about 15 hours today and I haven't had the time for a lengthy reply

Ah alright, have some well deserved rest first then.
I liked how the thread was evolving and was really interested in the answers of CosmicIron, if he returns, hope he answers everythign posted, or at least some stuff, the stuff he got to reply to is HUGE lol

Originally Posted by CosmicIron

I guess there are no shortage of grand masters on this forum, so my amateurish content will be of little value if not misleading. I have requested this thread deleted and I'm leaving DV. Good luck lucid dreamers!

No one here claims to be a "grand master". You were the one coming here claiming to be the expert. If you are always going to be so overly defensive about sharing your ideas and experiences, and become frustrated when those ideas are questioned, then you should probably just stick to teaching newbs how to LD, as you have been, because they don't have the knowledge and experience, and will accept your quasi-expertise without question. Good luck.

Originally Posted by mcwillis

I don't agree with everything that everyone has been discussing here. There is a lot of open ground regarding lucid stabilty and techniques. I have personally asked CosmicIron to stay as he has made a great contribution to the forum with his SSILD induction.

Thank you mcwillis, I appreciate your message. The SSILD thread will stay and I will do whatever I can to help those in need, albeit probably outside the scope of the forum. If I do make refinement to the technique, as it is still evolving, I will come back to update the thread. Ou have my word on that. Again, thank you and many good wishes.

Originally Posted by nina

No one here claims to be a "grand master". You were the one coming here claiming to be the expert. If you are always going to be so overly defensive about sharing your ideas and experiences, and become frustrated when those ideas are questioned, then you should probably just stick to teaching newbs how to LD, as you have been, because they don't have the knowledge and experience, and will accept your quasi-expertise without question. Good luck.

This is my last reply. Lucid dreaming is a relatively under-developed territory. To make it go beyond the cult status we need as many "newbs" as possible, and to make them at least taste some success. If you guys are truly the experts, in comparison to my "quasi-expertise", then please help those poor individuals, instead of just showing off your lucid dreaming prowess and how advanced your skills are to the point it is beyond any tangible techniques. Teach your stuff to thousands of people, make them your equal. If you do that you have my full respect and apology. Otherwise, go ahead turn this thread into your showroom on how your lucid dreaming expertise is so great that it defys the limit of physiology. Do it as you wish. I'm gone.

^^ Um, CosmicIron, if you're still not gone, I believe the one who was touting their thousands of LD's and thousands of LDer's he's "worked with," was you, and not us.

Indeed, we were simply expressing our opinions and then defending them from your assaults from on high (like calling something many of us have done many times -- long LD's -- a "claim," aka a "lie," and flat-out dismissing our concerns about some of your "tips," aka "rules," like resisting rational thought). I think it was our temerity to question your supreme authority that annoyed you here, and not our behaving like ivory-tower masters floating high above the little newbies. Could it be that we may have damaged the walls of your tower a bit, and you were hurt by our experience-grounded rather than wide-eyed-newbie-grounded responses? If that's true, then I'm not sorry at all. If you are as qualified as you say you are, you wouldn't give a crap what anyone says, and you would have the wisdom to consider what others say, rather than dismiss it. Both those attitudes are what newbies need most, instead of unquestionable authority -- I hope you consider this as you move on.

I also truly hope you do not carry this kind of attitude of unquestionable authority with you as you preach LD'ing to the Newbies. Establishing limits to a new thing like LD'ing before a newbie even attempts it is a very bad thing. So is crowding a newbie's early experience with techniques, procedures, and apparently unbreakable rules (like how long a LD can last). Those attitudes will do more damage to your wish to expand the world of LD'ing beyond its current cult status than good, I think. Sure, you'll gather more newcomers to your flock, but they'll leave quickly, because their master chose to feed them incorrect information and will not listen to those experienced "cultists" who offer adjustments and opinions, causing LD'ing to become for the newbies a fairly unrewarding task rather than a life-changing experience. I truly hope this conversation offers you an opportunity to rethink your stance, and pride, in all this, CosmicIron, especially if you're touching the minds of as many people as you say.

That said, I again am sorry you're quitting this forum; you seem to truly care about LD'ing, as do I. But if you're going to be that thin-skinned and unwilling to listen to what folks who've "been there" have to say, well, maybe it is time for you to step back, and perhaps find out for yourself if you can get a LD to last an hour or more...then you too can say good-bye to short LD's!