Thread: The Nature of Dream Control

Had an amazing lucid this morning. Just indescribably vivid and beyond real. When I reached the point of introversion, I could feel it. Feel my awareness reaching inwards and lack of focus on the dreamscape. I took this as a cue to give my mind as much sensory input from the dreamscape as i could and i stabilized my lucidity.
When I started losing it I was holding snow in my hands. It seems that every time I have something in my hands (strong sensory input) my lucidity does not end in me waking up (unless its a false awakening), but in entering a new dream, though i've still lost my lucidity almost every time.

It is late and I'm tired, so I apologize if I ramble or fail to be clear. Sorry if I fail to stay on topic.

Cusp -- I like where the discussion is going. I've been wondering for months now if this whole thing is NS related. I've had some dreams where people who were clearly not DCs taught me stuff. These were always fairly friendly interactions. Maybe I should challenge the NS myself to see what I could learn.

Lately I've been avoiding any area of DV that isn't LD focused. I need to head over to the "Beyond" section and see where things are going. I've been having some unusual dream experiences and want to find some connections.

I agree that some mention of personal schemata and whatnot would be a good idea.

I had an interesting LD the other night.
An unusually smart and insightful DC came up to me and we started talking. I realized he was sort of a DG. The DC of my partner kept distracting me. I decided to be sure if she was just a DC or if perhaps we were sharing a dream. So I asked her a simple subtraction problem. She couldn't answer. I just wanted her to leave me alone, so I pushed her into the ground using a gesture (not actually touching her). Then I went on with my conversation with the DG.

The only problem was that in a later dream I felt guilty about what I had done to the DC of my partner (even though I knew it was just a DC) and spent a couple of LDs fabricating scenarios where I saved her.

A question about the emotions: What if you meet a person you're in love with in your dream? How will it affect the dreamscape?

Seeker28, what is NS?

Originally Posted by Timothy Paradox

A question about the emotions: What if you meet a person you're in love with in your dream? How will it affect the dreamscape?

Seeker28, what is NS?

NS means Night Stalker.
DW means Dream Walker.

I've met the person I am in love with several times: the dreamscape becomes non-existent, because I am devoting all of my attention on that person and the feeling i have for her.

Originally Posted by Timothy Paradox

A question about the emotions: What if you meet a person you're in love with in your dream? How will it affect the dreamscape?

Your love for that person will cause them to become a central element of the dream, and the rest of the dream will form around them. This turns out to be a thorn in your side more often than not. You will have nice dreams sometimes, but if you've ever gotten into an argument with that person, that scenario stands a good chance of playing it's self out again (or some approximation thereof). Your concern for their welfare or safety will also manifest unpleasant scenarios.

If you keep a DJ, do a search for "mother" or "father" or anyone else you you love. You'll find that the majority of the time, the dream goes bad in some way.

You need freedom to act in a dream, and people like that will tie you down.

Originally Posted by anomanderis

Had an amazing lucid this morning. Just indescribably vivid and beyond real. When I reached the point of introversion, I could feel it. Feel my awareness reaching inwards and lack of focus on the dreamscape. I took this as a cue to give my mind as much sensory input from the dreamscape as i could and i stabilized my lucidity.
When I started losing it I was holding snow in my hands. It seems that every time I have something in my hands (strong sensory input) my lucidity does not end in me waking up (unless its a false awakening), but in entering a new dream, though i've still lost my lucidity almost every time.

THat's awesome! I'm glad it's working for you. Feeling it like that is really important in ways I can't describe at the moment. I know what you mean by losing lucidity. Often I will relinquish my lucidity in order to stabilize the dream, and forget to get it back. Trying to focus lucidity seems artificial at times, and it can be good to slip back into natural dreaming to stabilize things.

Starting a fresh new dream after the point of introversion is only natural. Things were fading away, and there was likely not much left of the original dream. So the dream has to start over, building off of what you have your attention on. When that happens, try to see how the new dream is related to your area of focus that salvaged the dream.



I've been a little lax with updating this thread the past few weeks. Had a bad case of writers block, and a loss of focus. I have three articles in the works for this topic which I'll finish soon.

Plus I haven't been lucid in well over a month, but broke that streak last night in a lucid where I concluded that dreams are no different than reality.

To give a recent example, I saw a guy yelling at a little girl yesterday who was about the same age as me niece. Now my 19 month old niece is currently obsessed with pinecones (which I think is due to their inherent sacred geometry). So I walk into my building, thinking about my neice because that scene I just witnessed captivated my attention, and there in the middle of the hall is a pinecone. Call it coincidence or synchronicity, but I say it's the second rule of dreaming in action.

My personal schemata associates pinecones with my niece, and by thinking about her, that's the path it took. I've lived in this building three years now, and I've never seen anything laying in the hall.

Originally Posted by The Cusp

Your love for that person will cause them to become a central element of the dream, and the rest of the dream will form around them. This turns out to be a thorn in your side more often than not. You will have nice dreams sometimes, but if you've ever gotten into an argument with that person, that scenario stands a good chance of playing it's self out again (or some approximation thereof). Your concern for their welfare or safety will also manifest unpleasant scenarios.

If you keep a DJ, do a search for "mother" or "father" or anyone else you you love. You'll find that the majority of the time, the dream goes bad in some way.

You need freedom to act in a dream, and people like that will tie you down.

Lol don't worry - I've never even met this person in real life so we won't argue about anything. By the way, she's not really human anyway - and whoever or whatever tries to harm her will regret doing so.

Whenever I dream about someone I love something bad almost always happens. I think I've mentioned that before in this thread only one time or maybe two that I can remember were good. The others she was either angry at me or dying, about to die and I had to save her etc.

Originally Posted by tommo

Whenever I dream about someone I love something bad almost always happens. I think I've mentioned that before in this thread only one time or maybe two that I can remember were good. The others she was either angry at me or dying, about to die and I had to save her etc.

Yes but isn't that because the subconcious is in control?
I intend to manifest her, and the enviroment around us. If I don't want anything bad to happen, nothing will. I thought that was what LD'ing was all about.

Originally Posted by Timothy Paradox

Yes but isn't that because the subconcious is in control?
I intend to manifest her, and the enviroment around us. If I don't want anything bad to happen, nothing will. I thought that was what LD'ing was all about.

Not wanting anything bad to happen doesn't mean that it won't. If you concentrate on nothing bad happening, then it probably will, because you are trying to make a positive affirmation using a negative phrase.
I would suggest believing that what you want to happen will happen. To have the state of mind where no other option is possible, but this is not "forced", it is just infallible "faith".

Once you have some experience ld'ing, you'll know what i mean. You just do it. That's all.

Originally Posted by anomanderis

Not wanting anything bad to happen doesn't mean that it won't. If you concentrate on nothing bad happening, then it probably will, because you are trying to make a positive affirmation using a negative phrase.
I would suggest believing that what you want to happen will happen. To have the state of mind where no other option is possible, but this is not "forced", it is just infallible "faith".

Once you have some experience ld'ing, you'll know what i mean. You just do it. That's all.

I know what you mean with "positive affirmation". You're not even supposed to THINK about something bad happening; because "not bad" still has the word "bad" in it if you know what I mean.
I'll focus on the exact opposite of bad

If you've ever done focal meditation, that's what I've used to learn the state of mind required. There is nothing other. You don't even think about it. If i had to describe it somehow, i'd say it is mostly will and somewhat pre-thought, knowing the context of the thought before it forms, which can also be considered as will.
In the end the best explanation is that you just do it, but you won't understand that until you've already done it
Like that little green one said, "There is no try. You do or you do not."

The best way is not to think at all, but if you're not familiar with that state of mind, fat chance you'll get there without practice.

Originally Posted by anomanderis

If you've ever done focal meditation, that's what I've used to learn the state of mind required. There is nothing other. You don't even think about it. If i had to describe it somehow, i'd say it is mostly will and somewhat pre-thought, knowing the context of the thought before it forms, which can also be considered as will.
In the end the best explanation is that you just do it, but you won't understand that until you've already done it
Like that little green one said, "There is no try. You do or you do not."

The best way is not to think at all, but if you're not familiar with that state of mind, fat chance you'll get there without practice.

You guys are really very optimistic. Why on earth would everybody be able to do it and not me? And why do you assume that I am inadequate?
I look at it this way. I can do it. I am going to do it. Naysayers can't stop me.
Anyway, I'm looking up focal meditation on the net to see what it's all about.

EDIT: Lol. I enter "focal meditation' and the first thing I find is a bunch of sites about "sorcerers and psi-wheels".
LD'ing is science.
EDIT2: OMFG 45-60 minutes!?

Originally Posted by The Cusp

Your love for that person will cause them to become a central element of the dream, and the rest of the dream will form around them. This turns out to be a thorn in your side more often than not. You will have nice dreams sometimes, but if you've ever gotten into an argument with that person, that scenario stands a good chance of playing it's self out again (or some approximation thereof). Your concern for their welfare or safety will also manifest unpleasant scenarios.

If you keep a DJ, do a search for "mother" or "father" or anyone else you you love. You'll find that the majority of the time, the dream goes bad in some way.

You need freedom to act in a dream, and people like that will tie you down.

Wow, NONE of my dreams about the people I love are like that, I've only had about 3 such nightmares, and usually when I am worried about someone like they are expressing suicidal thoughts or I know they are doing something dangerous. The rest of my dreams are always upbeat and pleasant, we are always just hanging out or doing fun things together...

Originally Posted by Shift

Wow, NONE of my dreams about the people I love are like that, I've only had about 3 such nightmares, and usually when I am worried about someone like they are expressing suicidal thoughts or I know they are doing something dangerous. The rest of my dreams are always upbeat and pleasant, we are always just hanging out or doing fun things together...

Thanks Shift... REALLY. Thanks.
I believe my dream will be very VERY happy and satisfying.
If you guys knew what I am feeling for this person then you'd know that my dream can't be anything but good.

Originally Posted by Shift

Wow, NONE of my dreams about the people I love are like that, I've only had about 3 such nightmares, and usually when I am worried about someone like they are expressing suicidal thoughts or I know they are doing something dangerous.

I didn't mean to imply they would be nightmares, only that they tend to tip the scales towards the negative. Worrying that someone you love is doing something dangerous is a perfect example. It's hard to avoid having those thoughts, lucid or not, and worrying about something in a dream creates a high likelyhood that it will happen.

THose kinds of attachments limit your control, be they positive or negative. But only because that is what you use for control, so loved ones tie up your resources in a manner of speaking.

Originally Posted by The Cusp

I didn't mean to imply they would be nightmares, only that they tend to tip the scales towards the negative. Worrying that someone you love is doing something dangerous is a perfect example. It's hard to avoid having those thoughts, lucid or not, and worrying about something in a dream creates a high likelyhood that it will happen.

THose kinds of attachments limit your control, be they positive or negative. But only because that is what you use for control, so loved ones tie up your resources in a manner of speaking.

In my case they are my dream goal, so they are supposed to tie up my resources ^^

Right, but what I'm saying is that those few negative dreams are the ONLY negative ones. In general my dreams are crazy, ridiculous, but RARELY anything but fun and peaceful. I dunno, I used to have nightmares when I was younger, maybe it's a growth thing?

The only time I have negative dreams now are, like I said, when I'm truly worried about someone I love because I'm worried about them in waking life, or every so often when I have a nightmare, but with those few exceptions I am never around people I know in my nightmares.

I had a dream last night that I was a killer and couldn't control it. I wonder if that means I'm narcissistic

Originally Posted by Shift

Right, but what I'm saying is that those few negative dreams are the ONLY negative ones. In general my dreams are crazy, ridiculous, but RARELY anything but fun and peaceful. I dunno, I used to have nightmares when I was younger, maybe it's a growth thing?

The only time I have negative dreams now are, like I said, when I'm truly worried about someone I love because I'm worried about them in waking life, or every so often when I have a nightmare, but with those few exceptions I am never around people I know in my nightmares.

I had a dream last night that I was a killer and couldn't control it. I wonder if that means I'm narcissistic

It means you are a killer! Get help immediately before anyone gets hurt!

Originally Posted by Timothy Paradox

You guys are really very optimistic. Why on earth would everybody be able to do it and not me? And why do you assume that I am inadequate?
I look at it this way. I can do it. I am going to do it. Naysayers can't stop me.

Thinking like that is the way to go, just don't overdo it. By that I mean don't get cocky without having experience. Considering your sig, you haven't had that much lucidity. I know how important it is to believe that you can do it and even believe in yourself when you can't, it is a very slippery path to delusion if you don't pay attention.
I never even thought that you might be inadequate, don't get me wrong, but controlling ones mind is one of the hardest things to do and with all probability no-one can do it without extensive practice. You might think you're in control, but when push comes to shove, you (in all probability) won't get beyond that at first.

And btw, not everybody is able to do it and even those who can have varying degrees of success

Originally Posted by anomanderis

Thinking like that is the way to go, just don't overdo it. By that I mean don't get cocky without having experience. Considering your sig, you haven't had that much lucidity. I know how important it is to believe that you can do it and even believe in yourself when you can't, it is a very slippery path to delusion if you don't pay attention.
I never even thought that you might be inadequate, don't get me wrong, but controlling ones mind is one of the hardest things to do and with all probability no-one can do it without extensive practice. You might think you're in control, but when push comes to shove, you (in all probability) won't get beyond that at first.

And btw, not everybody is able to do it and even those who can have varying degrees of success

I'm not cocky - I have failed before. But I am determined enough to continue until it's done.

I wish you luck Timothy Paradox!

I think that not only is belief in yourself important to dream control success, but also an ability to sustain that belief when things are hard. Sometimes I have perfect dream control -- anything I want happens instantly and effortlessly. And other times I struggle to do even the most basic (which for me is flying). I think some of it has to do with attitude, and some has to do with stress and exhaustion. I know when I'm stressed out or absloutlely exhausted it does weird things with my dreams.

Originally Posted by Timothy Paradox

I'm not cocky - I have failed before. But I am determined enough to continue until it's done.

That is good to hear




This morning I had another lucid spree. I was in a regular dream, when some guys were chasing me and my mother (surprisingly enough this is the first time i remember my mother was in a dream). I told my mom to head for the bushes and run away while i would distract them.
A man came out of the car, we had a scuffle that ended with me holding a rifle without a magazine and him with a fully loaded one.
This is where i became lucid. The only indication of bullets hitting me were little bullet-sized points of slight pressure and discomfort on my chest and face. The fact that i din't have a magazine in the gun didn't stop me from going full-auto on the bastard.
I mowed down a couple of them (ripping their heads apart with bullets), thinking that the aim was different than in counter-strike.
Then i felt the point of introversion coming on and my lucidity destabilising. I bunched my fist, since i had nothing to hold on to at the time, the act itself both physical stimulus from the dream and a mental concept of gripping on, of not letting go.
next I knew I was in a counter-strike dream, everybody running around with knives. I wondered whether I was sill in a dream. (It seems fairly obvious as you're awake that it was a dream, but things are not that simple when you're still in it)
I retained my lucidity and when my lucidity started wavering, i bunched my fist again as hard as i could. Someone stabbed me and I died. (Somewhere between this and the next sentence i played gta on my pc, still kinda lucid, but caught up in the dream).
As I died, everything went black. Damn, i thought, thinking that i had woken up. My fist was still clenched tight. But then I wondered. Even though it felt like i had woken up, a part of my mind still told me to make sure.
Eyes closed, I could suddenly see my bedroom from behind my eyelids. I became fully lucid again as I hovered and was wafted about in the darkness, flowing through walls.
Suddenly a dream had formed around me, but i felt oddly hazy and weak. As soon as i moved, the dream faltered and i woke up for real this time

Even as I woke up I could feel like my right hand was clenched in a fist, but as soon as i moved it, i realized this was not actually so.
Today I finally managed to retain lucidity while moving from dream to dream and not let myself wake up as soon as i started losing it, though with each new dream my "power" weakened as i felt hazier and the dream around me much more fragile.
It was a good example of that thing or other that we've discussed here:
gunfight led to counter-strike, cs to knife-only map dream, that to playing behind the computer, that to gta ...

And I guess its confirmed that MILD is the best way for me to induce lucidity when i don't feel like doing absolutely anything else. What I do is for 10 seconds or so i absolutely and completely believe that i am going to have a lucid dream, that i have already had it. Works almost every time if i'm not in a dry spell.

Cusp, what is it about these two characters that makes you so sure that they are seperate from your own psyche?

Hey dream control people (especially the highly informative Cusp)!
I have been quite interested in how the mind works and how reality works. This forum is repeating things I have learned in other ways throughout my search.

Okay. From the start. There was a guy named Milton H. Erickson, who revolutionized a lot of ways people treat psychological issues, and he made amazing breakthroughs in hypnosis and hypnotherapy. Check him out online. Also, read "My Voice Will Go With You", about some of the cool things he did. (I think that's the book's name).
Erickson talks about how people can create fixations on problems, and how to remove the fixation (very often solving the problem), and how people can train themselves to think certain ways or even have certain physical limits, and some ways to remove them. He also says that when you remove these limits, you have to put a new limit THAT YOU TRUST in place, or else you will retreat to your old limit.
I'm not sure how much important information I'm leaving out there, but check up on him, like on Wikipedia, and you should find what I mean.
Anyway, I have this idea about how people remember things. Imagine your favorite car. What color is it? What make and model is it? Now, tell me what the license plate says, and which state it is from. Most of the time, you won't have a license plate already in mind. Your mind goes to the strongest associations you have about cars, and favorites, and favorite cars, and puts them together, leaving out any details that your "intent" didn't express.
What is interesting, though, is if you try to think about something you DON'T know, your mind will get you as close as it can, using your assumptions.
I was taking a test for a linguistics class, and I couldn't remember the name for one of the answers, though I KNEW I should be able to remember the name. My mind came up with two words that had qualities similar to the correct answer, and I put them together in the way that seemed most right (like taking Lothar and Mustard, and getting Lostard), though I felt I definitely put down the wrong answer. When I looked at the right answer later, I saw that I had is spelled correctly, and was only missing a single 'r' in the middle.
I have had a ton of experiences much like this, and one of the BIG factors in whether I end up correct or not is how much I can convince myself to believe I actually know, or can derive, the real answer. The more I believe in my ability to get the right answer, the closer my answer is to correct. I don't know it's the right answer at the time. I only try my best, and verify later.
Whenever I just gave up, and decided I wouldn't figure it out, and wrote down what I was thinking anyway, I was way off.
The theory I have is this: You have a problem, a question, something you are seeking. That sends out a specific signal (frequency of light, specific jigsaw pattern, who knows what??) such that the solution (and things close to the solution) will be the only responses that will cancel the original query.
The response you get back will be the one closest to the assumptions you make AND the answer as possible.
Example: I remember a song, but I can't think of the tune. I start getting impressions of certain parts of the song, but they sound like parts of other songs I know also, and if I focus on the other songs, I lose track of the original song completely. But if I hunt down the original song relentlessly, I get another portion of yet ANOTHER song, and when I try to put them together, sometimes the song I'm looking for just SNAPS into place, and I remember it.
What does this have to do with dream control? My dreams answer my questions, in symbols of my assumptions, beliefs, and feelings, just as my memory answers my searches in symbols of my focus, assumptions, and intent.
I can change my whole dream by changing my focus, questioning my beliefs, and altering my feelings. What was really awesome is I had a dream in which I could fly as long as I thought I could fly. But it wasn't as simple as jsut thinking I could fly, as I had to really believe it in every part of myself. It was like a realization that your beliefs are not you, and are not reality. They are something you create to help understand and deal with reality, and they affect the way you react with real life, and how life reacts to you.
That is why I brought up Milton H. Erickson, because a lot of what he talks about is how your beliefs assist and restrict you, and how you can change them. That is also why I brought up my theory on thought, because my belief in the answer gave me the answer (thought I didn't recognize it when I saw it), and my disbelief kept the answer from me.
-Jim