Thread: The Nature of Dream Control

Originally Posted by tommo

Wow, wanna slip some grammar in there?
Anyway think I get what you're saying and yes these things are all quite obvious, but discussing it leaves a chance for more insight and investigation into why all this happens and further things that you might not find quite so obvious. Also discussing it lets people have input and could change how you think about it.

For example if you investigate say, bones of a velociraptor, you might go in thinking clear headed and thinking critically but then once you keep dwelling on this one thing by yourself your judgment would become clouded because you have no input from other people. You might have a sudden feeling that this bone is only 100 years old and you would start looking for things that verify this, yet if someone was there with you they would say 'nah it's just dust' lol or whatever. I don't know if I got to the point there but that is why people discuss obvious things.

Cusp came up with some interesting ideas and eventually started thinking he could apply this to real life just the same as in a dream, he obviously won't agree with me but I believe he dwelled on it too long by himself. Therefore he started getting carried away with some ideas without someone there to say "wait a minute, you're not thinking clearly, real life cannot be manipulated like a dream etc etc"

That's an odd thing to say. Real life is manipulated, much like dreams. They may not be identical in all aspects, and maybe they are and we just don't have enough force of thought? Maybe reality is an excuse to not take resposibility for our thoughts, and let "other things", that may just be us in disguise, control us. Are you a person, or a dream of a person, who dreams they aren't in control?

So Cusp I have a question. I have little trust in people (emotional aspect) and when I go through my day to day I seem to be on auto-pilot. You know like when you stare into nothingness and your eyes adjust and sort of only see the outline of things, thats how it is for me everyday. So I visually dont really concentrate on anything, theres no attention to detail. I dont talk to anyone unless I need to, im a sociopath I guess you could say, so my interaction to the world is minimal. Going through the day like this and based on what Ive read of your dream rules, do you think my attentive disconnection from the real world would have an impact on my ability to dream control, based on your attention rule? Especially since we tend to interact in our dreams the way we do in real life, as far as behavior patterns are concerned?

Originally Posted by The Enterer

Cusp, what is it about these two characters that makes you so sure that they are seperate from your own psyche?

It's very simple. They are able to use these dream control techniques I've been talking about, and they don't respond to me using them like a regular DC would.

Originally Posted by risingprmc

So Cusp I have a question. I have little trust in people (emotional aspect) and when I go through my day to day I seem to be on auto-pilot. You know like when you stare into nothingness and your eyes adjust and sort of only see the outline of things, thats how it is for me everyday. So I visually dont really concentrate on anything, theres no attention to detail. I dont talk to anyone unless I need to, im a sociopath I guess you could say, so my interaction to the world is minimal. Going through the day like this and based on what Ive read of your dream rules, do you think my attentive disconnection from the real world would have an impact on my ability to dream control, based on your attention rule? Especially since we tend to interact in our dreams the way we do in real life, as far as behavior patterns are concerned?

Based on the rules, I would say your dreams would tend to be unstable. Things would disappear quite frequently and there would be very little continuity. Also your ability to spontaneously become lucid would be greatly deminished, so you would have to rely on reality checks and ILD methods to get lucid. You would probably wake up a lot once you get lucid due to this introversion

I don't like talking to people either, but I would suggest trying to increase your awareness. I think that is the difference between natural LDers and those that rely on methods. Naturals are more aware of their surrounding

Originally Posted by jimmie

I have found in dreams and in real life that if I focus really hard on getting something to happen, it doesn't work. In the dreams, objects don't move, I don't fly. In real life, I get too caught up in the details and lose the overall goal and the lessons any problems are teaching me.
However, in my dreams and real life, if I make my intentions strong towards my goal, and let the method be determined by the environment, or the dream, I can and do succeed.

Yep, you have to keep your eye on the prize. Concentrate on you goal, and not how you're going to achieve it. The trick is not to get distracted. There are a bazillion things that can easily distract you, you just have to practice not letting your attention wander.

Originally Posted by jimmie

That is why I brought up Milton H. Erickson, because a lot of what he talks about is how your beliefs assist and restrict you, and how you can change them. That is also why I brought up my theory on thought, because my belief in the answer gave me the answer (thought I didn't recognize it when I saw it), and my disbelief kept the answer from me.
-Jim

Thanks for that, Jimmy! I'll be sure to look into that guy. I've been meaning to look into hypnotism to see how it ties into this. I get the feeling i could use these rules alone to hypnotize someone, but it's hard to find a volunteer who I can approach with this.

Originally Posted by The Cusp

It's very simple. They are able to use these dream control techniques I've been talking about, and they don't respond to me using them like a regular DC would.

But, just to play devil’s advocate a bit, didn’t you come across the concept of the dw/ns before you encountered them? Didn’t you consciously invoke them? I find that my subconscious is very willing to play along with anything I ask it to. Do you feel that the manifestation of something autonomous and beyond your control is something beyond the ability of your subconscious mind’s ability, especially when you deliberately dwelled on the idea?

When I was saying all dreams with loved ones are bad it's only with this one girl I love and only when I'm not lucid. Just to clear that up, someone referred to it, can't be bothered going back to check.

Today was the first time that I experienced real water while I was lucid. What i mean by that is simple: water in the dream felt the same as in physical reality, only with a slight difference caused (in my opinion) by the difference of physical and dream perception.
Before this time I had had one other lucid dream, where i fell into water. Visually it seemed like it was being rendered by dx7 and not dxGod and it felt oddly... dilute. The surface was a dull pixellated monochrome.

So I'm very happy now

I wonder what brought about the change.

rofl. I'm happy for you!
Could have been anything really; what you ate, sleep pattern change or non-change, random spike in some random brain chemical that we can't explain, good mood lol you get the point. Just my opinion though of course. Could be a perfectly explicable explanation. What happened during the whole dream? Could be related to that....

Originally Posted by tommo

rofl. I'm happy for you!
Could have been anything really; what you ate, sleep pattern change or non-change, random spike in some random brain chemical that we can't explain, good mood lol you get the point. Just my opinion though of course. Could be a perfectly explicable explanation. What happened during the whole dream? Could be related to that....

Even though I was lucid, I was kinda running away from the sound of footsteps near my school (which is right on a limestone embankment at the edge of the sea) when I fell back-first into the sea. It felt good to thrash around in it.

Hmmmm, suppose fear could make you more lucid or the dream more vivid. trying to figure out what the sound is maybe. Really can't pinpoint an answer because you can't prove the answers right lol

Maybe the slight fear of the footsteps caused a little bit of an adrenaline rush? I'm not sure if that response works while asleep though...

I think the glandular system works the same way even when we sleep. I think...
I'll attribute this change to my over-all rise in dream realness and lucidity.

Though my last few lucids have been kind of tenuous and seemingly in very shallow sleep, since when I try to clench my fist, i've clenched my physical fist, which makes me wake up.
And for some reason when I had a full lucid this morning, I seemed to sense that I had been lucid many times before that during the night, but no memory of it remains...

Again, I feel emotions deserve a special mention. I'm assuming for the moment that emotions are something that require your attention to exist as well. But I'm not too sure about that at all, and the emotional influence may turn out a third rule. Anyone have any thoughts on weather emotions are something that require your attention to exist, or whether they they are independent entities.
----------------
Britni



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Originally Posted by Britni

Anyone have any thoughts on weather emotions are something that require your attention to exist, or whether they they are independent entities.

Isn't it that for one to be aware of something, one must put attention on it? If that is true, then emotions require attention to be felt, meaning that whether they exist of themselves is pointless, since experiencing them requires attention.

Attention, intention, emotions... it's all psychic energy when you boil it down.

Heh.... I'm sure he meant 'physical' silly kids always getting those two words mixed up! right....?

When you boil it all down it's interactions between neurons and chemicals in your brain actually.

Originally Posted by tommo

Heh.... I'm sure he meant 'physical' silly kids always getting those two words mixed up! right....?

When you boil it all down it's interactions between neurons and chemicals in your brain actually.

thank you thank you thank you

Look, if you 'silly kids' want to try to make some kind of point that lucid dream control is a physical skill rather than a mental skill, you have a serious uphill battle in front of you. Otherwise you are splitting a hair that has no bearing on the subject at hand, and making yourself look ignorant in the process.

Originally Posted by The Enterer

Look, if you 'silly kids' want to try to make some kind of point that lucid dream control is a physical skill rather than a mental skill, you have a serious uphill battle in front of you. Otherwise you are splitting a hair that has no bearing on the subject at hand, and making yourself look ignorant in the process.

So you disagree that action potentials in neurons and chemical reactions are responsible for most of what goes on in your brain?

This thread is probably the best thing that has ever happened on DV. If you want to shit in the soup please go do it in another thread.

Cut the fighting, please. Thoughts boil down to physical actions and reactions, and plenty of the body's physical processes have effects on thoughts.

It works both ways. You left that out of your equation.

Originally Posted by Licity

Cut the fighting, please. Thoughts boil down to physical actions and reactions, and plenty of the body's physical processes have effects on thoughts.

no more why are people unnecessarily hostile yeesh

Yeah, right. It's 'Amen' when you agree and 'hostility' when you don't. Great 'dream guiding' there Shift.

Originally Posted by Shift

So you disagree that action potentials in neurons and chemical reactions are responsible for most of what goes on in your brain?

I don’t disagree with the basic findings of neuroscience, and I’m not sure why you would draw that conclusion from the fact that I used the term ‘psychic energy’.

However it does seems that you some of you are missing half of the equation. If I insult you, and it messes with your thoughts, eventually your heartbeat might speed up, your face turn red and you might start pacing around. Clearly here we have a case where your thoughts affected your physiology and not the other way around. I think it’s pretty clear that it works both ways. My personal belief is that the brain doesn’t dictate consciousness from a physical stand point, but more accurately translates between the two.

Still this has NOTHING AT ALL to do with this thread and the point that I was trying to make, namely that all of these - emotions, attention, intent - are different colorations of the same basic undifferentiated psychic energy and that there is not, in my opinion at least, much use to be made in distinguishing between them. You have at your disposal X amount of this energy at any given time. Whether you spend it on emotion or on attention or intent, I don’t think makes any difference in terms of control, but really just will reflect the ‘flavor’ of the experience.

If anyone wants to take issue with that theory then that’s fine, but let’s leave the scientism out of it and stick to the topic, please.

That said, chimpanzees totally suck ass.