Destabilising Stabilisation

[sylarcookie]

Keeping in mind I have only really had a few lucid dreams, I seem to have a recurring problem, and it's a real strange one. I am under the impression that normally looking at one's hands and commanding/thinking about stability is supposed to anchor and stabilise a dream. Herein lies the issue, out of all the LDs I have had since learning about this technique, observing my hands and asking or commanding for more detail/stability basically has the effect of turning off a switch. By that I mean, the instant I look at my hands or ask/command for more clarity/stability all my DCs vanish and I wake up. I am 100% certain the first time this happened I was OK with it because I'm still a noob, but this morning I was definitely angered by my continual 'switching off' of my LDs. I will also add here I haven't ever woken myself up out of excitement at achieving an LD (I often find myself thinking 'be chill' or something), and certainly not after for example puncturing my palm with my finger. All that happens is I do that (try to anchor), and then everything just...goes away, except for the surroundings, and a split second later I am awake. So I am wondering, has this happened to anyone else? And regardless of whether or not, what can be done to combat this?

[The Cusp]

Looking at your hands and shouting commands are both useless techniques for stabilization. Sure, it may work sometimes for some people, but that's just a fluke, and has nothing to do with those lame techniques, it's just coincidence. Check out Mzzck's thread on stabilization http://www.dreamviews.com/f14/stabil...entals-116673/

[nina]

[QUOTE=The Cusp;1808396]Looking at your hands and shouting commands are both useless techniques for stabilization. Sure, it may work sometimes for some people, but that's just a fluke, and has nothing to do with those lame techniques, it's just coincidence. Well that's some arrogant bullshit. Those methods work for many people and are a proven technique for stabilization. That doesn't mean it will work for every single person every time. Sorry you are too good for our "lame" techniques.

[Burke]

The cusp is correct to a certain extent. Much like RCs and induction techniques, stabalization methods can vary from person to person. What works for some may not work for you. I would suggest trying out different methods over your next few LDs. Start with ones you haven't tried yet since you know these current ones will likely wake you up. Have you tried just paying attention to your surroundings and trying to become hyper-aware? It's almost like practicing ADA inside the dream itself. All rubbing your hands together really does is get you focused on how it feels, so you anchor yourself in the dream more. You could also grab on to something in the dream and just focus on it. Think about how it feels/smells/even tastes. This way, you can anchor yourself to the dream without using any one definitive technique. Hope this helps

[The Cusp]

Well that's some arrogant bullshit. Those methods work for many people and are a proven technique for stabilization. That doesn't mean it will work for every single person every time. Sorry you are too good for our "lame" techniques. Lets say somehow a solar powered music player get transported back in time and is found by a bunch of cavemen. Some of the cavemen push the on button during the day and it plays music. Others try to push the on button at night and nothing happens because there is no sunlight to power it. What's more important? Knowing about the "on" button, or understanding the principles behind solar power? Trying to use those stabilization techniques without understanding the theory behind stabilization it like the caveman pushing the on button without understanding the idea of solar power. Once you do understand stabilization, you'll understand that those two techniques leave a lot to be desired. I don't give a damn how many cavemen get the music player to work during the day, it's just dumb luck.

[sylarcookie]

Yeah, I didn't mean to provoke a nasty heated debate. Cusp, despite being a noob at lucid dreaming, I do know this much; there is no set law for what works and what doesn't, and I don't think it's right to just denounce techniques when they do work for some people, though perhaps not yourself. They don't work for me and I'm not on here saying 'these techniques are lame!' However, I am by no means an expert, and I understand the general gist of what you were saying, even if your caveman metaphor is a bit tasteless and demeaning. You are by all means entitled to your opinion, but it doesn't make it the one sole truth on the subject. That aside, thank you Burke for expanding on that topic and making it constructive. I will certainly try focusing on dream elements external to myself from now on; I have a good feeling it will help keep my attention focused on what's at hand and not on my hands literally, ha.

[Mzzkc]

You are by all means entitled to your opinion, but it doesn't make it the one sole truth on the subject. You mean the opinion that it's better to understand how something works than accept it as magic? Hmm. . . . Well, I guess blind faith and ignorance is a pretty cool choice, too. There's less thinking, questioning of core ideals, and conflict involved, so I can definitely see the perks. ^.^ Cusp, despite being a noob at lucid dreaming, I do know this much; there is no set law for what works and what doesn't, and I don't think it's right to just denounce techniques when they do work for some people, though perhaps not yourself. On that note, how do you know your assertion here is the "one sole truth on the subject?" What has brought you to the conclusion that there is no form or function to the way dreams are generated and maintained? I take it you aren't a huge proponent of determinism and the like. Not trying to stoke any flames here. Just trying to get you to think a bit more critically about things.

[Astrosomnia]

Completely off topic, forgive me. I just wanted to say Cusp, your signature gave me a hard-on. I've always thought that the day we discover the frequency at which we dream (or whatever else it happens to be) and therefore develop the ability to 'log on' together would lead to two things: 1) The creation of what would be the fastest and widest selling piece of technology in the history of man, in the form of the dream-modem. 2) The beginning of the end of the human race as we know it. When the dream world can be shared, the real world will become a grey, meaningless means to an end that people slave away in for hours only to go home to the dream world.

[sylarcookie]

On that note, how do you know your assertion here is the "one sole truth on the subject?" What has brought you to the conclusion that there is no form or function to the way dreams are generated and maintained? I take it you aren't a huge proponent of determinism and the like. Well done at catching me out there. I suppose I would say the limited amount of reading I have done on the topic of dreams and lucidity has lead me to forming this opinion without even thinking about it, as sometimes people can do. You are by no means mistaken in suggesting that there may indeed be form or function to such things, and I apologise for having a bit of a brain fart and typing things I didn't fully think through before hitting the reply button, as I am prone to do. I, like most people, certainly don't know everything, and if it seemed as if I was claiming to, I screwed up. I just have difficulty dealing with people who seem to not think critically about how what their writing may make someone feel, especially when they're new to a topic. In summary, my feelings were hurt and I said something stupid. I probably shouldn't have said anything at all, and next time I won't.

[sylarcookie]

Ugh...just ignore everything here. I won't bother anyone here again.

[Mzzkc]

Well done at catching me out there. I suppose I would say the limited amount of reading I have done on the topic of dreams and lucidity has lead me to forming this opinion without even thinking about it, as sometimes people can do. You are by no means mistaken in suggesting that there may indeed be form or function to such things, and I apologise for having a bit of a brain fart and typing things I didn't fully think through before hitting the reply button, as I am prone to do. No need to apologize. Everyone makes mistakes like this every once and awhile. The important thing is you were able to catch it and learn from it. =) I, like most people, certainly don't know everything, and if it seemed as if I was claiming to, I screwed up. I just have difficulty dealing with people who seem to not think critically about how what their writing may make someone feel, especially when they're new to a topic. In summary, my feelings were hurt and I said something stupid. I probably shouldn't have said anything at all, and next time I won't. Relax. =) You said what you meant, and it wasn't at all stupid or ill-conceived. You're right that techniques shouldn't simply be denounced because they don't work universally. It's instead better to explore those techniques and figure out the reason why they don't always succeed. And don't worry about The Cusp; he wasn't angry at you or anything. He's just a bit frustrated with what is being actively/officially taught on this site. Unfortunately, his methods of combating it can be a bit blunt at times, but that shouldn't stop you from speaking up. I think you have a lot of potential, and I'd hate to see it wasted because of this. Ugh...just ignore everything here. I won't bother anyone here again. =(

[The Cusp]

Awww, come on everybody, group hug! All I'm trying to say is I believe we can do better than those techniques, and get something that work all the time for everyone (with a bit of practice). I also believe there are constants to dreaming that are beneficial to everyone which can be verified through practice. As far as I can tell, the hand thing originated in the books of Carlos Castaneda, and was never intended as a stabilization method. As for the shouting commands, I can't think of any conceivable reason that would work, but I'm open to to hearing any explanations for why it should. And Sylar, since I can't PM you, don't you dare stop posting just because I come off as a jerk sometimes.

[Astrosomnia]

As for the shouting commands, I can't think of any conceivable reason that would work, but I'm open to to hearing any explanations for why it should. I actually have an asterisk in one of my dream journal entries that I wrote for myself that specifically says that after experimenting, shouting commands works far, far better than thinking or speaking them. Much like Mzzkc mentions in his Stabilization Fundamentals, it's all about engaging with your dream world while maintaining that balance of critical thinking. In the case of shouting, you're hearing and using your voice in a 3D space, and by shouting instead of simply speaking, I believe you're emotionally putting more of yourself into the dreamspace. Additionally, by using a command you're also reinforcing the awareness that yes, you are dreaming, so you don't get too lost in the dream and lose lucidity. Having said that there are probably far better methods to utilise but if you're going to try a command... hell, shouting one is better than doing nothing at all and letting the dream fade.

[sylarcookie]

Alright guys : ) Astrosomina, it's interesting to see that this technique works for you. And I completely agree with the idea of doing at least something rather than nothing. Right now I'm working much harder in my daily life to improve my dream life. I am very new at this, after all.

[Astrosomnia]

Update on the shouting commands thing: Last night I went lucid and was quickly losing the dream so I did the only big thing I had available to me at the time and shouted "increase lucidity now". It worked the first time, albeit only slightly but it's worth noting that pretty much every time I do that I'm always fighting a battle with myself about whether or not I'll accidentally yell in real life. In this case, when I did it a second time, I thought I'd been too loud and woke myself up. Turned out to be just a false awakening, which I for some reason didn't realise or think to RC. Anyway, there's a possible side effect of doing this one and that's actually happened to me before as well. I think by worrying about waking myself up, I also focus too much on my waking body and sometimes begin to feel myself in bed; also a bad thing to have happen. So all in all, I'd recommend doing something else! Ps. Have you had anymore luck with keeping stability?

[The Cusp]

I was lucid last night and thought to try shouting, but the dream didn't need stabilizing. Couldn't think of anything else to shout about. I don't even think it's possible for me to test shouting for stabilization, it's just not an issue for me anymore.

[siuol]

As far as I know, the shouting is only using expectation, and perhaps people feel more confident that it will work with a shout. I find that paying attention to my surroundings and making sure the dream is in 1st person is best for me. However, I used to use shouts as a sort of panic to try to salvage any remaining lucidity, but now I either try for a DEILD or false awakening when I reach that point of destabalization, it seems to work, in my limited experience at least. As for rubbing your hands, I think that could help by drawing your attention to sensory information from your dream body to distract you from your actual body. You can do this with most things I would think, but hands are readily available and easy to remember, so it seems like an okay stabalization technique.

[yuppie11975]

Can I has be in group hug? ;3 Shouting "stabalize lucidity" is definetely my main stabalizastion techniuqe. Along with rubbing my hands together.

[sylarcookie]

Ps. Have you had anymore luck with keeping stability? Since all my LDs for far have been DILD(pretty sure this is the right acronym), I haven't actually had another one yet, so unfortunately I can't give you feedback on this. Thank you for asking, though.

[Astrosomnia]

Great advice, siuol. I've only recently heard about DEILDs and am definitely going to just work on embracing a fading lucid and utilize it to effectively DEILD as the knowledge you're about to wake up would stop you moving or opening your eyes, I imagine. Question: can you False Awaken into a DEILD? Like, if you think you're going to wake up, and instead have a false awakening, but are prepared for it either way, can you utilize the FA and DEILD it? ...this thread has gone a bit off topic!

[siuol]

I'm not sure that this will answer your question but this may help. Once I became lucid while I was in my dream room, and went to my bed for no reason to have a lucid dream (maybe my logic was that my attempt couldn't fail if I were already lucid?) and sort of went into a dream within a dream. I know there are no multiple dream levels, but it served to change the dream scene, and since I wasn't thinking clearly I sort of thought that the dream body was the one having the dream (sorry if this makes no sense). Every time I would lose lucidity, I would wake up in the dream bed, already partially lucid, and do a DEILD to continue the lucid. It was pretty much a DEILD, except I never woke up, so it was really a FA. Maybe it wasn't a FA though since I was still sort of lucid, but I don't think it really matters, lots of times different definitions and techniques sort of blur when you apply them to the dream world. As for false awakenings, I've never caught a random FA in my life, since I have the bad habit of never reality checking. But one day I kept getting them after I woke from a lucid, and I caught it with an RC after months of not even doing one. I didn't notice anything abnormal really, or think about doing a RC, I just felt compelled to do one. For DEILD links,I didn't even really notice that I was doing a DEILD the first time I did it. What usually happens for me is that the dream will end, and I will be looking at blackness. Then I just think that maybe if I look at it for a little the dream will start back up, and pretend the dream isn't really over yet. I start to see some color and the dream reforms. It went much more simply and naturally than I was expecting honestly. At first I wasn't positive the dream really ended at all, but I guess thats sort of part of DEILD. When awake I thought that I was going to sense when the dream was going to end and focus on staying still, but in the dream I wouldn't want to think about it ending, and when it was I tried to save it instead, so I never got to really. I think if I got to plan out the DEILD it would work fine, but I never had to since this way worked with less effort on my part. So in a way you can DEILD from a FA, but I don't think it would technically be a DEILD since you never really exited the dream. I would say just go with the flow of the dream, and it will turn out easier than you might expect. If you lose lucidity and are looking around your room, do a reality check, if your looking at the back of your eyelids, wait for the dream to come back. If this doesn't work for you, find out what does. Creating your own method is great and not as hard as it sounds, since you might stumble upon it accidentally in a lucid.