Thread: Obama supports 'the right' for ground zero mosque

Originally Posted by Alric

So Obama got into office and the debt was 10 trillion, and now its 13 trillion and you think that is a good thing? You must be one of the people who thinks the only way to get out of debt is to spend more money. I wont even go into the horrible logic involved in that, because I think we all know how stupid the idea is.

And you know a way to immediately halt the debt of a country in a recession fighting two wars? Obama inherited a dying country and I'm not sure there's anything he or anyone can do about it.

Originally Posted by Knight

Do we have to be?

You're the guys who voted for Obama. Anyways I wouldn't worry about it, the US is the least socialistic country in the developed world...

Originally Posted by Knight

Well They are building the mosque here........we had to go through 9/11 which was a rough day for our country. If you think Im putting Americans on a pedestal I am not. I was just stating that its a bit strange to put the Mosque there.

Other than that I could care less about it.

Er... you could?

Anyway, 'slapping us Americans' just makes it sound like you think Muslims... aren't.

I honestly think nothing should be built at Ground Zero.

/me leaves

Originally Posted by Xei

What are you talking about? You went to war with Afghanistan because the regime there supported the terrorists which attacked your country. Not because they were Muslims?

When has that ever been the official line? There would be outrage if something like that were ever stated by the administration. And even if it were implied by the previous administration, Obama's rhetoric has never been anything like that.

You're not making any sense at all.

It's not the official line, but that doesn't matter. Americans already have a close relation between "terrorist" and "muslim" pounded into their minds.

Originally Posted by Dannon Oneironaut

The postal system is socialist, public schools are socialist, police force is socialist, medicare and medicaid is socialist, welfare is socialist, etc... So yes, we are all a little bit socialist. Socialism is a bad word that people use to instill fear and anger. How has Obama expanded the government? Did he create a new department called Homeland Security? Anyway, off topic.

the problem is this: Communism and Socialism were established as opposing ideologies, now people think they are one and the same. If we DIDN'T imply some socialism our country would be shit.

Originally Posted by Knight

I was just stating that its a bit strange to put the Mosque there.

No more strange than building a Church, Synagogue, or any other religious building. Islam wasn't any more responsible for 9/11 than Christianity was for the Oaklahoma City bombings.

Originally Posted by Knight

I was just stating that its a bit strange to put the Mosque there.

No more strange than building a Church, Synagogue, or any other religious building. Islam wasn't any more responsible for 9/11 than Christianity was for the Oaklahoma City bombings.

Originally Posted by Alric

the health care stuff

HAHAHAHA

you want to know what happened with "the health care stuff"? Obama decided he wanted to finally be the guy to fix up our health care system (which wasn't in particularly good shape when he started, and isn't in much better shape now, I'll explain why in a moment). He began introducing ideas that would begin to turn health insurance away from being a business and towards being a public service, as it should be. After all, unless you're filthy rich, the quality of your health care is directly proportionate to the level of health insurance you can afford. Now, that is not to say we're going to have free health care or anything (god fobid we should catch up to every other modern nation in the field of caring for our sick and wounded), but just to make sure people can afford the level of health care they deserve. That's all. None of the scary bullshit rumors. Because, private health insurance companies aren't there to make sure you get health care, they're not part of some institution put there for your well being like, say, hospitals. They are a business, and just that. Someone says, hey, maybe I can make a few bucks selling health insurance. Now, this means that they're looking to pull a profit, and like most other major businesses, they aren't afraid to step on a few feet to increase that profit. And, unortunately due to the high costs of health care, and to some degree the desire for more and more money from already-rich health insurance company leaders, quite a few "little people" end up getting screwed in the process. Health insurance is a product, and in order to make a major profit on tht product, you have to screw a few people over. Now, along comes Obama. He tries to enact rules that would keep the health insurance companies from screwing people quite as bad, especially by blocking their favorite loophole, so-called pre-existing conditions. He also tries to put in place a government-run alternative. Now, I know what you're thinking: "oh noes, Obamacare!". However, this government provided alternative is just that: an ALTERNATIVE. Nobody's forced to make any changes whatsoever to their health insurance situation. But those people who are getting screwed and/or can't afford their insurance would have somewhere else to turn. This would improve the overall market by forcing private companies to lower their rates and/or improve their services to compete. I dare you to explain to me what is wrong with that. But wait! There's one more detail. The Republicans, who are in the hip pockets of the insurnce companies (It all comes back to greed AGAIN). So they make every effort they can to block Obama's attempts, simultaneously trying to make him look bad in the interest of the next election (despicable, considering these people are supposed to be acting wioth the general public's best interests in mind). And then you have the conservative media fucknuts, namely Bill O'Reily, Glenn Beck, and fucking Rush Limbaugh, spreading lies about the evil Obamacare that was never anything more tan a figment of some people's imagination, to draw public support away from it.

So, in short, don't even try to pin that on Obama. He did everything he could to improve our healthcare, ad he was cut off at every turn.

/rant

...

*looks back over post* Christ, I'm sorry, that's just one thing that REALLY gets me going, I just had to get that out. I wasn't trying to attack you, or your thoughts, but a general way of thinking.

Ok, I think I've had my fill of political debate for the next year or so. Time to go back to making fun of it.

Remember, Jon Stewart is the only news reporter I trust

$5 says that more than 25% of the hillbillies that rant against Obamacare have geico not realizing that it stands for "Government Employee insurance company"

Originally Posted by bored2tears

I honestly think nothing should be built at Ground Zero.

/me leaves

What about around Ground Zero?

Originally Posted by bored2tears

I honestly think nothing should be built at Ground Zero.

/me leaves

Does anyone actually look into things beyond what Fox News tells them? The mosque is planned 2 blocks away from ground zero.

Originally Posted by Mario92

What is your solution?

To let the market adjust without being bogged down by "stimulus packages," inflation, or essentially other federal actions.

Obama walked into the office with a starting national debt of $10.6 trillion. Job loss is ongoing, but at a slower rate than before. I'm not saying Obama has been doing a perfect job, but for the most part, I agree with his actions. There's only so much that can be done.

Again, Wile. E. Coyote grabs onto a branch and you report that he is on his way to safety.

In other news, this conversation is wildly off-topic and thus should be dropped.

Originally Posted by BLUELINE976

To let the market adjust without being bogged down by "stimulus packages," inflation, or essentially other federal actions.

Because the free market always works. It always ensures everyone is best off. It is a magical garden. It does not need water. It does not need sunlight. And when left alone, the garden will grow and bear amazing fruit.

Right. That kind of thinking is exactly what got us into this mess. If you let the market do whatever it damn well pleases, the lower class will be stepped on and gipped by those with resources and power. Greed will reign supreme. In an effort to increase profits, banks started making riskier and riskier loans. In the end, the banks were screwed, and so were the people who took the loans.

Again, Wile. E. Coyote grabs onto a branch and you report that he is on his way to safety.

Hey, it beats falling off the cliff and dying. He has a fighting chance now.

Yea, if you stop spending money suddenly the debt goes down. It must be magic, you don't spend money and some how you don't go into debt further. Seems like common sense to me. As for how you fund a war without going into debt, well you just stop going to war. There really isn't a reason for us to be fighting any where at the moment.

As for the health care situation, the government is just going to make things worse, and everything will cost more. They been making things for worse for years, the government is one of the major causes of why health coverage costs so much already. The answer isn't to have more government involvement.

As for saying the preexisting condition thing is a loophole, that isn't a loophole. That is how insurance works. Closing the loophole is moronic. That is like saying people should be allowed to buy fire insurance after their home burns down. Its obvious that allowing people to buy insurance to cover something that has already goes wrong is basically stealing from the insurance company, and increases the prices for everyone else.

You mean like the last time democrats were in charge when we called the deficit a surplus?

Originally Posted by Mario92

Because the free market always works. It always ensures everyone is best off. It is a magical garden. It does not need water. It does not need sunlight. And when left alone, the garden will grow and bear amazing fruit.

Right. That kind of thinking is exactly what got us into this mess. If you let the market do whatever it damn well pleases, the lower class will be stepped on and gipped by those with resources and power. Greed will reign supreme. In an effort to increase profits, banks started making riskier and riskier loans. In the end, the banks were screwed, and so were the people who took the loans.

This is your reply to my post? A paragraph or two of strawmen and alternate reality?

Hey, it beats falling off the cliff and dying. He has a fighting chance now.

Until the branch breaks, which it inevitably will...

Originally Posted by BLUELINE976

This is your reply to my post? A paragraph or two of strawmen and alternate reality?

What, you don't think greed exists? That people will exploit other people to get ahead? That everyone is morally perfect? Without some sort of regulation, this is exactly what happens. WITH regulation this happens, but usually to a lesser extent. There are all sorts of ways a person can legally "cheat" the system. Loan paperwork went from 2 to 19 pages in a few years. People didn't know what they were getting, because they didn't know what they were reading. Left to their own devices, people can and will use whatever they can to maximize profit at the expense of consumers.

Until the branch breaks, which it inevitably will...

Or until he scrambles to safety, which if he doesn't, we're all fucked anyway.

Originally Posted by Mario92

What, you don't think greed exists? That people will exploit other people to get ahead? That everyone is morally perfect? Without some sort of regulation, this is exactly what happens. WITH regulation this happens, but usually to a lesser extent. There are all sorts of ways a person can legally "cheat" the system. Loan paperwork went from 2 to 19 pages in a few years. People didn't know what they were getting, because they didn't know what they were reading. Left to their own devices, people can and will use whatever they can to maximize profit at the expense of consumers.

I'm more concerned over the fact that you think this mess was a product of an unregulated free market...Your other pessimistic concerns are irrelevant to me.

Or until he scrambles to safety, which if he doesn't, we're all fucked anyway.

The point of the comparison between Wile E. Coyote falling off a cliff and grabbing onto a weak branch and the economy tanking then looking like its going to recover is that the branch will break, meaning the so-called recovery is a temporary illusion.

The reason paperwork gets longer and more complicated is because of government regulations. How can you honestly believe more regulation makes things simpler and easier? It doesn't. The long confusing paperwork is a direct result of government interference.

So much of the regulation and controls government puts on the market are biased and favor specific groups or people, and I don't mean the consumers. They put in laws that 'protect' certain groups, and give them unfair advantages in the market place. In a free market, a person will never succeed in ripping people off and being greedy. However in a government controlled market, a company is protected by the government and allowed to rip people off, and are rewarded for it.

I hate when people think that someone who is sick shouldn't get coverage! Stealing from the insurance company! So I guess they should just die. That is why there SHOULD be an ALTERNATIVE! What if you are born sick? I have a friend who has a child who is hemophiliac. He had to move to Canada so his child would survive. That is the whole problem with making health care a business. If you want to make money and be a successful businessman then go into life insurance rather than health insurance. Only people who have a heart should be involved in healthcare. I think everyone's life and health is just as precious and valuable, not that poor people should suffer more than they already do. Being poor sucks, and being poor and sick and having nowhere to turn but to die in pain and suffering while you let your family down who depends on you is the most heartbreaking thing in this world. And, sorry, we cannot help you because we are too greedy, it wouldn't be fair to the indurance companies, yet we can spend trillions of dollars on killing people in Iraq. I guess we have an overpopulation problem anyway, but at least we can kill off the poor humanely. If I am ever in that situation where I can't support my family because I am dying of some disease because I cannot afford proper healthcare so they become homeless or whatever, I would rather just commit suicide. While Dick Cheney, who has government healthcare doesn't even worry if he gets another heart attack or if he shoots someone in the face. It is no big deal to him. because he has money, and how did he get his money? By fucking everyone in the whole world over.

There is my rant.

As for the topic: they are not building the mosque ON ground zero, but a few blocks away. Do you know how much stuff is a few blocks away from ground zero? And since Americans have earned a reputation for being bigoted and ignorant, why don't we try to change that by not letting the FOX hype manipulate our minds and emotions so that we can think for ourselves instead of react like puppets. Terrorist=/=Muslim, and you know it. The ignorance and the predictability of the common american appalls me. I love the IDEA of what an American is supposed to be. I love the IDEA of what America is supposed to stand for, and I believe in it wholeheartedly, but the reality is that the vast majority are just sheeple. This shouldn't even be a topic on this forum. OF COURSE OBAMA SUPPORTS THE RIGHT FOR MUSLIMS TO BUILD A MOSQUE! Imagine if he said "No, they don't have a right to build a mosque!" Now THAT would be a topic worthy of discussion.

I go now.

Originally Posted by BLUELINE976

I'm more concerned over the fact that you think this mess was a product of an unregulated free market...Your other pessimistic concerns are irrelevant to me.

It's at least partially the result of an unregulated free market. My so-called "pessimistic" responses are true enough. Doubt me? Put yourself in the shoes of a powerful CEO. Tell me, honestly, that given the opportunity of making an extra half a billion at the expense of screwing over a few more people, you wouldn't take it. It's only human nature.

The point of the comparison between Wile E. Coyote falling off a cliff and grabbing onto a weak branch and the economy tanking then looking like its going to recover is that the branch will break, meaning the so-called recovery is a temporary illusion.

If it is a temporary illusion, and our country is forever doomed to wallow in another depression, then why aren't you headed straight for the border? America is going to bounce back, sooner or later. If it doesn't, pack your bags for Canada, because that's the only option you have left.

Originally Posted by Alric

The reason paperwork gets longer and more complicated is because of government regulations. How can you honestly believe more regulation makes things simpler and easier? It doesn't. The long confusing paperwork is a direct result of government interference.

Alright. Also put yourself in the shoes of a powerful CEO. You want to escape regulation. How do you do it? By exploiting every loophole and creating unreasonable amounts of paperwork. By deceiving large volumes of people. Increasing regulation may increase red tape, but it at least prevents the intentional inflation of paperwork.

So much of the regulation and controls government puts on the market are biased and favor specific groups or people, and I don't mean the consumers. They put in laws that 'protect' certain groups, and give them unfair advantages in the market place. In a free market, a person will never succeed in ripping people off and being greedy. However in a government controlled market, a company is protected by the government and allowed to rip people off, and are rewarded for it.

In a free market, all that matters is supply and demand. It doesn't matter the means. Minimum wage and child labor laws are the result of government interference. Are you proposing we remove these basic protections and resort to a purely free market? Guess what: the government is actually good for some things! Minimum wage may have some unintended consequences, like increased unemployment rates, but that's something we're going to have to deal with if we want people to work for livable income. Yes, there is corruption, but removing all government-created barriers is not a good idea! There is no magic economic system. Not a single one to date has been built that can seamlessly swallow human error and corruption. A free market is no more the solution than socialism, but so long as the government does provide good things, like child labor laws, I'm not going to lobby for withdrawing all government interference.

You are mixing two totally different issues Dannon. That is health care and health insurance. A person who is born sick should have access to affordable health care. They shouldn't be covered by health insurance though, because insurance is for emergencies not everyday care.

You can't fix health care prices by destroying health insurance, and making insurance more expensive for everyone involved. Forcing insurance to cover people already sick doesn't solve the problem of affordable health care, it only pushes the problem onto the insurance companies. Which actually makes things worse.

As for the free market, supply and demand isn't the only factor. People like to say that the government is the only people who can stop a company from following bad practices but that isn't true. The customers are a bigger factor. If a company steals from and cheats it customers, no one is going to do business with them, and they will go out of business.

I am not entirely opposed to government doing some things to regulate companies, however you have to be really careful. You give them an inch and they take a mile. Currently there isn't just a little regulation, there a huge amount of it. Its in everything and its bogging down the entire economy and its making things far worse than it is better.

Originally Posted by Alric

You can't fix health care prices by destroying health insurance, and making insurance more expensive for everyone involved. Forcing insurance to cover people already sick doesn't solve the problem of affordable health care, it only pushes the problem onto the insurance companies. Which actually makes things worse.

Never mind that insurance companies have been reaping record profit levels. Believe me, they aren't hurting for money.

As for the free market, supply and demand isn't the only factor. People like to say that the government is the only people who can stop a company from following bad practices but that isn't true. The customers are a bigger factor. If a company steals from and cheats it customers, no one is going to do business with them, and they will go out of business.

They don't have to exploit their customers. They just need to have the lowest price and a decent product. The people who suffer most are the employees. Most people would be blissfully unaware of how horribly the employees would be treated. Remember the Microsoft fiasco, where they got some computer component from sweatshops in China? If so, has that had any bearing on whether or not you purchase Microsoft products? Consumers don't care, so long as the price is affordable.

I am not entirely opposed to government doing some things to regulate companies, however you have to be really careful. You give them an inch and they take a mile. Currently there isn't just a little regulation, there a huge amount of it. Its in everything and its bogging down the entire economy and its making things far worse than it is better.

You know who's demanding all this regulation? It isn't the government. It's the people who run the government: the citizens. If people hadn't have elected the officials they did, the health care bill would likely be dead right now. And say what you want about regulation, but if you take a look at Socialism, it actually works not too bad.

Originally Posted by Alric

As for the free market, supply and demand isn't the only factor. People like to say that the government is the only people who can stop a company from following bad practices but that isn't true. The customers are a bigger factor. If a company steals from and cheats it customers, no one is going to do business with them, and they will go out of business.

Except a substantial amount of customers will have been stolen from or cheated before they realize it and then go through the hassle of finding someone else to provide the needed service. In this manner, the protection of the customer is reactive instead of proactive. It's far better to have a system in place to prevent the customer from ever being cheated in the first place.

Originally Posted by ninja9578

Does anyone actually look into things beyond what Fox News tells them? The mosque is planned 2 blocks away from ground zero.

This proves that you should never believe what your friends tell you about the news.

Originally Posted by bored2tears

This proves that you should never believe what your friends tell you about the news.

I'd say it's the news that are at blame, not your friends. Took me a couple of days too, before I realised. With the amount of controversy, you just assume they must be planing to build on Ground Zero itself.

No more strange than building a Church, Synagogue, or any other religious building. Islam wasn't any more responsible for 9/11 than Christianity was for the Oaklahoma City bombings.

Did you really need to post this twice?

Anyway you bring up a good point.

But me saying something is strange doesn't mean I oppose it, if they bought the land they can do what they want with it.

Most of the insurance companies are not making record profits, that is just propaganda that was used to push the health care bill. The whole, big business is bad, come save us from them type stuff. It really has no basis in fact.

Any way, companies generally don't exploit people for quick crash, when it means the destruction of their company, and after a few companies die from doing stupid stuff like that, the others will follow. However instead of that happening, government gives them money and rewards them for bad business practices. Like the banks, they did something stupid but the government came in and gave them billions of dollars to save them.

Why shouldn't they take risky practices, when the risks are negated by the fact the government is backing them?