Thread: Reason for Riot

Riots everywhere! One can dream.

Actually the first thing I said when I saw the news about the riots were "But why are they rioting? There must be some underlying reason."

Greed? If you read the social media messages which organised this, it's all about 'let's go get some free stuff'. It's not about racial oppression either if that were the guy's point about his grandson; the people doing this are black and white.

These aren't protests about anything. There are no placards. If you speak to the people doing it they don't have any political concerns or even knowledge at all. After the first disturbances were broadcast, what I'm guessing happened is that a bunch of opportunist thieves saw how ineffectual the police were (they were literally just standing around watching kids steal stuff, presumably due to excessive caution about using force), and that mixed with the potent and perennially underestimated forces of human psychology (the Milgram experiment) caused what we've seen.

If there's an underlying problem other than opportunist criminality, which will exist in any society, it's that a subculture of people have been brought up to be so selfish, so completely stupid, and so utterly unconcerned about others, that they can set fire to occupied buildings with the sole thought of 'this will be fukin madness lololol'.

Here are the thought processes of the people actually doing this:

Originally Posted by Xei

Greed? If you read the social media messages which organised this, it's all about 'let's go get some free stuff'. It's not about racial oppression either if that were the guy's point about his grandson; the people doing this are black and white.

These aren't protests about anything. There are no placards. If you speak to the people doing it they don't have any political concerns or even knowledge at all. After the first disturbances were broadcast, what I'm guessing happened is that a bunch of opportunist thieves saw how ineffectual the police were (they were literally just standing around watching kids steal stuff, presumably due to excessive caution about using force), and that mixed with the potent and perennially underestimated forces of human psychology (the Milgram experiment) caused what we've seen.

If there's an underlying problem other than opportunist criminality, which will exist in any society, it's that a subculture of people have been brought up to be so selfish, so completely stupid, and so utterly unconcerned about others, that they can set fire to occupied buildings with the sole thought of 'this will be fukin madness lololol'.

Here are the thought processes of the people actually doing this:

I agree with this.

And as far as I'm concerned, the moment criminals start setting fire to occupied buildings and endangering the innocent lives is the cue for the police to start feeding them lead.

Originally Posted by tommo

But if you think about it for a minute, people don't just do this for no reason.
There has to be some underlying cause, some unrest and dissatisfaction with the way things are going.

I don't think anyone's saying they're doing it for no reason. They're saying that they're either doing it for x reason or y reason, when in reality different people are doing it for different reasons.

From video I've seen there seem to be at least 2 completely different groups, political protestors and vandals. I've been on vacation and just heard about this so I don't really know much, but it seems like it's not a clear cut thing. It's not just a bunch of thugs nor a bunch of political martyrs.

And with regards to your video, the guy who got shot supposedly shot a cop first.

People really need to read books on non-violent protests, they've been fucking it up lately.

EDIT: Now I'm even more confused, I guess a few of the videos I watched were from last year, despite being uploaded today. Not sure which ones were last year but it does look like the riots from this year were just riots, not protests.

The initial incident was a peaceful protest about this shooting (an incident currently being investigated by the police complaints commission and which has so far established the man did not fire a weapon), which turned violent. Pretty much everybody who joined in after seeing that, which is the vast bulk of the rioters, are probably apolitical.

Here's more strong indication for what this is about, which I've just seen:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today...00/9560646.stm

One of the guys says vaguely "it's about the government cutting education and not being able to go to college", basically parroting the political rhetoric of the last year, and then when the interviewer starts probing into how this makes any sense, he immediately drops that and says "it's not really about that, it's about the government not being in control; if they were, we wouldn't be able to do it, would we? They tried and failed; how many people have they arrested, like, 10". The issue, like I guessed, is that people saw images of the police showing absurd levels of restraint due to concern about protester welfare, when what was really happening was flat out theft, and what's happening now is just opportunism.

Other paraphrases:

"Why shouldn't I go get stuff if it's free" - totally selfish, throughout the interview he doesn't even show a modicum of awareness of the fact that the stuff he's stealing hasn't appeared by magic, but rather has been bought by shop owners and constitutes their livelihoods. We're just talking plain stupidity. But when asked how he'd feel if somebody stole his stuff, "obviously I'd be outraged". Ugh.

"When I get home my mum might shout at me a bit and that will be it, I'll live with it" - the only deterrent from stealing is the fear of punishment, and he doesn't have any parents bothered to punish him.

"It's not alright that little kids are doing this, but" / "So if you know it's wrong, why are you doing it?" / "I guess because everybody else is" - Milgram.

To be honest even I'm surprised how totally bang on the mark my first post was.

Almost all the rioting is caused by people taking advantage of the breakdown to steal stuff, or break stuff for fun.

Yeah you're all missing my point. I agree with you xei and stonedape.
People are doing it for different reasons. Probably most of them now are just taking the opportunity.

But what causes somebody to do this?
These kids are just the product of the society they live in.
The society that raised them (or in most cases nowadays, failed to raise them).
It doesn't matter if they have some well thought out political reasoning behind it or not.
(If they did, they wouldn't attack random houses obviously).

It still just shows you the product of a society. People wouldn't be doing this if they were happy. If they weren't oppressed and if they had the intelligence and motivation and happiness to go and find something they enjoy which isn't destructive.

What I'm saying is it's the failure of the governments, the parents and the schools to construct a healthy society. People who don't act on their immediate, unreasoned desires.

Oppressed? How?

The thing is, these kids have access to functional schools, and if not, they can find the necessary materials for free anyway. All it takes to progress in this society these days is the desire to progress, and put in, I don't know, perhaps a couple of hours of effort per day throughout your school days. Nobody is oppressing you; unless you're a borderline retard, all it takes is the desire to not suck, and not spend every single hour of your adolescent life pissing around. If people are passing up this opportunity because they are too lazy and not bothered, what can be done, and who is to blame?

Most of these kids have zero conception of what doing work is like. It's often said that any attempt the state makes to improve society in some way will have the opposite effect. You say this is the result of the government not doing enough to create a healthy society. Answer this: if the state hadn't give these people enough money to live in comfort in the first place, would we even have the current culture of dependency, laziness, and total disrespect for others, their property, and their will to progress, in the first place?

Originally Posted by Xei

Oppressed? How?

The thing is, these kids have access to functional schools, and if not, they can find the necessary materials for free anyway. All it takes to progress in this society these days is the desire to progress, and put in, I don't know, perhaps a couple of hours of effort per day throughout your school days. Nobody is oppressing you; unless you're a borderline retard, all it takes is the desire to not suck, and not spend every single hour of your adolescent life pissing around. If people are passing up this opportunity because they are too lazy and not bothered, what can be done, and who is to blame?

And why don't kids take these opportunities?
You are only a product of your genes and experiences. Obviously genes are not to blame.

Originally Posted by Xei

Most of these kids have zero conception of what doing work is like. It's often said that any attempt the state makes to improve society in some way will have the opposite effect. You say this is the result of the government not doing enough to create a healthy society. Answer this: if the state hadn't give these people enough money to live in comfort in the first place, would we even have the current culture of dependency, laziness, and total disrespect for others, their property, and their will to progress, in the first place?

I didn't say just the government. I said parents and teachers also. When you have comfort, it is obvious now that the default thing to do for most people is be lazy.
Parents and teachers should be showing kids that if they are lazy, they will no longer have comfort and all the rest of the things modern society gives us. Because people have to work for this society to function the way it does. Someone has to provide that comfort.

Maybe it's none of the above. Maybe it's the poisons we ingest through our skin and lungs on a daily basis which are fucking up our brains and making us complete morons.

The point is, you can't just say "oh these kids are fucked up, bloody thugs...." and be done with it.

I'm not, I'm suggesting that bloated benefits might have something to do with it. Not out of sympathy for those who are paying for it; it is arguable that they are demeaning to those in the very culture they engender. They give you the idea that work is pointless and so degrade your self-worth; they make you and those around you into dependants, with no more dignity than a baby; they give you the idea that things just fall into your lap and so you have zero respect for the property of other people. Worst of all, you are simply not out and about performing physical activity and achieving goals, something which is extremely deeply connected to your mental health as a biological being. Can this be good?

Not sure what you mean about poison; sounds like you have an interesting lifestyle.

Originally Posted by Xei

I'm not, I'm suggesting that bloated benefits might have something to do with it. Not out of sympathy for those who are paying for it; it is arguable that they are demeaning to those in the very culture they engender. They give you the idea that work is pointless and so degrade your self-worth; they make you and those around you into dependants, with no more dignity than a baby; they give you the idea that things just fall into your lap and so you have zero respect for the property of other people. Worst of all, you are simply not out and about performing physical activity and achieving goals, something which is extremely deeply connected to your mental health as a biological being. Can this be good?

Yes and who made this society? Not the kids.
You're saying these kids should take the opportunities they are given.
Well if they were raised to do that, they would.

Originally Posted by Xei

Not sure what you mean about poison; sounds like you have an interesting lifestyle.

There's tonnes of poisons everywhere.
Coal and mining polluting the atmosphere, cars emitting deadly gases.
I don't even need to mention the plastics and rubbers we use for everything which are slowly being shown to be poisonous. And we are absorbing them through our skin coz they're everywhere. Every cupboard in my house is coated in melamine, and I bet yours are too.

But what causes somebody to do this?
These kids are just the product of the society they live in.
The society that raised them (or in most cases nowadays, failed to raise them).
It doesn't matter if they have some well thought out political reasoning behind it or not.
(If they did, they wouldn't attack random houses obviously).

It still just shows you the product of a society. People wouldn't be doing this if they were happy. If they weren't oppressed and if they had the intelligence and motivation and happiness to go and find something they enjoy which isn't destructive.

What I'm saying is it's the failure of the governments, the parents and the schools to construct a healthy society. People who don't act on their immediate, unreasoned desires.

I would say the root cause of the breakdown is a combination of factors that have taken place in the UK over many years. I would argue that the extreme left-wing nonsense we've had to deal with under the past 10 years of Labour, and the out of control benefits system have had the biggest impact, but it goes back much further than that.

Going back a generation, there was a huge social stigma against abusing the benefits system, which meant that many were reluctant to use it. Having a job was important, and given that communities were fairly localised then this meant your reputation was important. Thus this meant the majority of people had to behave in an acceptable way.

Nowadays you've got the breakdown of the family unit through a benefits system that encourages single mothers to have many children to maximise the size of their cheque and gain housing, and a legal system biased against fathers. The benefits system and the rampant inflation has lead to an entitlement culture. It's also had a massive impact on the perception of work. Why work hard at a job when in many cases you can do nothing and get a similar amount of money and enjoy a very comfortable lifestyle. Not to mention the fact that it's given as disposable income in the form of cash, allowing it to be spent on non-essential luxury goods, instead of being used for its intended purpose.

The education system has declined, not only in quality, but in discipline thanks to left wing thinking that limits what teachers and schools can do to control pupils. For example, not long ago I was speaking to an extended family member who's a teacher. If there's someone disrupting the class who refuses to leave, then the only thing he can do to sort the problem out is to relocate the entire class. He said he's had to do this on a number of occasions. It's ridiculous that this is the only tactic he's left with.

Some thoughts on part of the problem in any case. I'd be here all day otherwise if I tried to go into the rest.

Originally Posted by Photolysis

Nowadays you've got the breakdown of the family unit through a benefits system that encourages single mothers to have many children to maximise the size of their cheque and gain housing, and a legal system biased against fathers. The benefits system and the rampant inflation has lead to an entitlement culture. It's also had a massive impact on the perception of work. Why work hard at a job when in many cases you can do nothing and get a similar amount of money and enjoy a very comfortable lifestyle. Not to mention the fact that it's given as disposable income in the form of cash, allowing it to be spent on non-essential luxury goods, instead of being used for its intended purpose.

The education system has declined, not only in quality, but in discipline thanks to left wing thinking that limits what teachers and schools can do to control pupils. For example, not long ago I was speaking to an extended family member who's a teacher. If there's someone disrupting the class who refuses to leave, then the only thing he can do to sort the problem out is to relocate the entire class. He said he's had to do this on a number of occasions. It's ridiculous that this is the only tactic he's left with.

Some thoughts on part of the problem in any case. I'd be here all day otherwise if I tried to go into the rest.

sounds like the exact same problems america has with its welfare and education. My state just recently took a step in the right direction by limiting the amount of benefit a single mom gets to 3 kids. Any more than that and its on you to figure out how to support them. Its only a small step, but one that may show a bit of waking up.

Originally Posted by Xei

a bunch of opportunist thieves saw how ineffectual the police were (they were literally just standing around watching kids steal stuff, presumably due to excessive caution about using force)

The police in this country seem to use force only as a last resort. In countries like China, these riots would easily be quelled within a few hours. These people (if you can call them that) obviously lack basic morality and discipline, so I think it's safe to assume that they won't go away if no one does something to stop them.

Originally Posted by tkdyo

sounds like the exact same problems america has with its welfare and education. My state just recently took a step in the right direction by limiting the amount of benefit a single mom gets to 3 kids. Any more than that and its on you to figure out how to support them. Its only a small step, but one that may show a bit of waking up.

We don't seem to have that problem here, women having tons of kids to reap government benefits, and we're known for having a pretty extensive welfare state ...

Originally Posted by Spartiate

We don't seem to have that problem here, women having tons of kids to reap government benefits, and we're known for having a pretty extensive welfare state ...

Yes, we use to be able to have a nice welfare state without people feeling the need to take advantage of it. I blame it on the growing culture of entitlement people seem to have. Im not a social scientists, so idk where or why this sense came from, but it is a leading reason this country is going downhill.

My husband is 30 years older than me and he says the last truly hard-working generation was that of my grandmothers age (people now in their high 70's-80's). He's seen a lot of change, but so have I.
When I went to school, paddling was still practiced. My last year of middle school changed that. Some girl claimed when the Dean paddled her, she miscarried so corporal punishment was done away with. The students immediately started misbehaving more.

My own kids were chronically truant to school so I was forced to attend with them for about a month. I spent my mornings at the High School with my oldest daughter (14) and my afternoons in the Middle School with my 13 year old.

I couldn't believe how much had changed!!!!! The classrooms were absolutely out of control. Everyone talked over the teachers, students started answering questions then rambling off on tangents that had NOTHING to do with anything. My kids always told me they liked getting In School Suspension because it was the only way they could get any work done. After my brief experience, I understood why.

As far as welfare... the State makes dependency too easy. I was once on assistance. My husband at the time worked very hard and put in many long hours. But any time he made more money, our benefits were docked. It was impossible to get ahead and break the cycle.

Mine is a sort of Cinderella story. When that husband left me, I became a stripper, met a well-to-do Dr. at the club, we had one "date" (spent 6 hours or so talking on the swing on his back porch) and we've been together ever since.
We don't live together because I never learned to keep house properly nor how to control my brood. We're next door neighbors. He always said he couldn't be both my husband and my father, so he's given me my own space so he doesn't nag and destroy our relationship.
Is it my parents fault? Societies fault? A combination thereof? I don't know.

But even I, at 37 years of age, can see the differences between generations. No matter how hard I tried to teach my kids religion, morality, ethics, GRATITUDE, it's never stuck. My psychiatrist says it's because there are so many other things influencing them from school to peers to the media.

Some differences between generations:
My kids start fighting or goofing off, put a hole in the wall, be made to repair it themselves, but they still do it all over again. Why don't they learn? If that were me at their age, I wouldn't have repeated it because I would have gotten spanked if I damaged the house a second time.
If that were my husband, he would have gone immediately to the "wood shed", THEN he would have to repair it.

My one daughter is in a facility for misbehaving kids and she still pees in a medicine bottle, keeps it in her undies and uses it to fake her urine test just so she can sneak smokes during her home visits. Should I tattle on her? Why is she setting herself up for failure?

At least 75 children were removed from their homes and placed into facilities during the last school year for skipping or otherwise missing school. As soon as those children turn 16, they drop out of school so they don't have to deal with that anymore. And what do they do then? They get pregnant, start a family, and drain the State of more and more money. Removing them from their homes, seems to me, to only make things worse in the long run.

But what's the solution? I don't know about other countries but here in the US, the State is taking away more and more parental rights. Though spanking isn't the only answer (and shouldn't be used as a first resort) it should still be an option without fear of having CPS harass you for the rest of your life. Many kids today have no respect, partially because they have no fear.

Originally Posted by tommo

Yes and who made this society? Not the kids.
You're saying these kids should take the opportunities they are given.
Well if they were raised to do that, they would.

You already made that point, it isn't relevant to mine... I was talking about society and not the kids anyway?

There's tonnes of poisons everywhere.
Coal and mining polluting the atmosphere, cars emitting deadly gases.
I don't even need to mention the plastics and rubbers we use for everything which are slowly being shown to be poisonous. And we are absorbing them through our skin coz they're everywhere. Every cupboard in my house is coated in melamine, and I bet yours are too.

Alarmist much? I suppose this is what's caused the unprecedented increase in human life span in developed countries?

Well this was a shit thread to begin with, so here's a funny picture, enjoy.

More and more, it seems like the News Media lives in a completely different world. This lady needs her head screwed back on

Originally Posted by Spartiate

We don't seem to have that problem here, women having tons of kids to reap government benefits, and we're known for having a pretty extensive welfare state ...

Photolysis just said you do? Why such differing opinions?

Originally Posted by Xei

You already made that point, it isn't relevant to mine... I was talking about society and not the kids anyway?

Ok?

Originally Posted by Xei

Alarmist much? I suppose this is what's caused the unprecedented increase in human life span in developed countries?

Alarmist has nothing to do with it. These are proven poisons in products we use everyday.
The sole reason for the "unprecedented" part of our increased lifespan is hygiene. Medicine has increased our life span by approximately 3 years on top of that.
These poisons aren't going to lower our lifespan all that much. But they cause cancer and stones and all sorts of things.

Originally Posted by Marvo

Well this was a shit thread to begin with, so here's a funny picture, enjoy.

I like the picture, but why is this a shit thread?
Is it shit to make people see things how they should be seen?

Originally Posted by Zhaylin

But what's the solution? I don't know about other countries but here in the US, the State is taking away more and more parental rights. Though spanking isn't the only answer (and shouldn't be used as a first resort) it should still be an option without fear of having CPS harass you for the rest of your life. Many kids today have no respect, partially because they have no fear.

I agree with this completely. I don't think corporal punishment should be re-instated. They just need good teachers to know how to discipline the kids and get them to learn, make them WANT to learn. There are WAY too many absolutely fucking shit teachers these days.
But you should be able to spank your kids or hit them. As long as you're not beating them half to death obviously.
All animals do it. You watch dogs or cats or lions or monkeys. They all hit their children when they do something out of line.
It's really the best way to teach them.

Originally Posted by Zhaylin

Many kids today have no respect, partially because they have no fear.

An accurate summary, which I would say could be easily extended far beyond kids.

Many have no respect for others because they never learned it, and never learnt to appreciate what they have because they gained it from the blood sweat and tears of others, hence the entitlement culture.

These people have no fear because at the moment there is very little that can be done. Given the overcrowding in UK prisons, then they can't be imprisoned over such petty crime (and even then, prison is hardly much of a deterrent these days with all the luxuries they get). They can't afford to pay any fines because they gain their income from benefits. They can't lose their job over their behaviour. They can't lose their home because they lost their job and can't pay the rent/mortgage. There is very little to threaten them with, short of taking away their benefits, which they know will almost certainly never happen because of the moronic attitudes that plague us.

But what's the solution?

In the UK at least, radical changes which teach these people that actions have severe consequences.

The benefits system (and legal system and education system whilst I'm at it) needs a massive overhaul. I have no problem with it supporting hard working tax-paying people who have fallen on hard times through no real fault of their own whilst they get a new job. I have no problem with it making sure that the poorest people have 4 walls, a bed, and 3 hot meals. But when it's a one-way ticket to free housing, and an extremely comfortable lifestyle filled with gadgets and HDTVs then it needs to be dramatically cut back. Certainly it shouldn't reward those who breed like rabbits.

Because they would have to earn any luxuries beyond the very basic existence the state is providing then that would teach them the value of a hard day's work, and make them appreciate what they've earned. Because they'd have to hold down a job this would force them to act in an acceptable way. A lot follows on from these two things.

Originally Posted by Photolysis

An accurate summary, which I would say could be easily extended far beyond kids.

Many have no respect for others because they never learned it, and never learnt to appreciate what they have because they gained it from the blood sweat and tears of others, hence the entitlement culture.

These people have no fear because at the moment there is very little that can be done. Given the overcrowding in UK prisons, then they can't be imprisoned over such petty crime (and even then, prison is hardly much of a deterrent these days with all the luxuries they get). They can't afford to pay any fines because they gain their income from benefits. They can't lose their job over their behaviour. They can't lose their home because they lost their job and can't pay the rent/mortgage. There is very little to threaten them with, short of taking away their benefits, which they know will almost certainly never happen because of the moronic attitudes that plague us.



In the UK at least, radical changes which teach these people that actions have severe consequences.

The benefits system (and legal system and education system whilst I'm at it) needs a massive overhaul. I have no problem with it supporting hard working tax-paying people who have fallen on hard times through no real fault of their own whilst they get a new job. I have no problem with it making sure that the poorest people have 4 walls, a bed, and 3 hot meals. But when it's a one-way ticket to free housing, and an extremely comfortable lifestyle filled with gadgets and HDTVs then it needs to be dramatically cut back. Certainly it shouldn't reward those who breed like rabbits.

Because they would have to earn any luxuries beyond the very basic existence the state is providing then that would teach them the value of a hard day's work, and make them appreciate what they've earned. Because they'd have to hold down a job this would force them to act in an acceptable way. A lot follows on from these two things.

How much do they get per week in the UK?

I agree with what you're saying. Those benefits should be left for people who have disabilities and people who have worked for years and just lost their job or something.

Although with the current state of psychology, anyone could be diagnosed with a disorder and say they are disabled. So that would have to be changed too.