Thread: Unrest in Iraq, is anyone surprised?

Originally Posted by MarineRecon

Thats what a Military is. A tool that is used by the government. If you join the Military then you do what your told. We're pawns.

Not a job for freethinkers then.

Originally Posted by Different

Not a job for freethinkers then.

Exactly, Im happy that you are starting to see the point. In the Military people don't really want your opinion. You do what you're told and thats it.

Originally Posted by MarineRecon

Exactly, Im happy that you are starting to see the point. In the Military people don't really want your opinion. You do what you're told and thats it.

Reminds me of the Nazis.

Originally Posted by Different

Reminds me of the Nazis.

That's how it is in every Military. That's what a Military does, follow orders. Please, before youstart a debate about a war learn exactly what a Military is. If not then get out of this thread.

Originally Posted by MarineRecon

That's how it is in every Military. That's what a Military does, follow orders. Please, before youstart a debate about a war learn exactly what a Military is. If not then get out of this thread.

I'm studying the history of warfare 1792-1945, so I'll stay here.

Do the US military even know why they were deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan?

We went to war with Iraq because they had weapons of mass destruction. Just like how we are about to go to war with Iran because they are developing weapons of mass destruction. Oh wait that was just propaganda, Iraq didn't have WMDs and there is no evidence Iran is developing them either. In fact all evidence suggest that Iran stopped working towards nuclear weapons a decade ago.

I am sure the military doesn't know why we are in Iraq and Afghanistan, or why we may end up in Iran. They are vague and hidden political reasons, that most Americans in general don't even know.

yup.

Originally Posted by Xei

So basically Caprisun, random authorities are moral arbiters, and not yourself. That's all you have to say in your defence. And then you ignore the moral arbiters when they disagree; again, the head of the UN declared the Iraq war against international law. And you arbitrarily declare other armies to be 'unofficial' in order to maintain your ridiculously asymmetric beliefs that everybody you're in conflict with is not justified in exactly the same way that you claim to be.

What authorities are you talking about? What makes you think they are random? Who/what are they disagreeing with? I don't think I quite understand what you are saying. You are ultimately the arbiter of your own code of ethics. Nobody can take away the beliefs you hold inside your head. But you should understand that when you join the military, legally, you are defering to another authority, if only for a while. It would be wise not to commit yourself to an organization which does not mirror your set of values. People in America are free to exercise their will. They don't have to be a part of an "illegal" war if they don't want to. They are also free to leave the country if they are strong in their convictions.

Neither the Taliban nor Al Qaeda is officially endorsed as the army of any real nation. Members have no legal obligation to serve. That's why they are not "official." It isn't arbitrary.

I'm not even trying to say that I'm justified and others are not. I thought we were talking about the moral implications of military service in America.

Originally Posted by Xei

The war in Iraq was based on a total lie, hundreds of thousands of civilians are dead, the country is going to fall apart, you've perpetuated terrorism and hence endangered your own country; what is your moral excuse for continuing to serve??

There are a number of legitimate reasons to continue to serve (and I don't really like that you call it an "excuse," Im not excusing or apologizing for anyone.) One of the most notable being there are no more American troops fighting in Iraq and the war is officially over. It also depends on what you do in the military. Special forces such as what MarineRecon is a part of do more to create peace and prosperity than most humanitarian organizations, sadly. Another person might feel compelled to protect his brothers in arms. He'll say, "as long as my countrymen are somwhere fighting and getting shot at, I want to be there with them to do my part and make sure they get home safe." That is a legitimate moral imperative in my opinion.

Originally Posted by Laughing Man

Apparently you've never heard of stop-loss.

I should know better than to engage Laughing Man in a debate, but here goes nothin: "The policy has been legally challenged several times. However, federal courts have consistently found that military service members contractually agree that their term of service may be involuntarily extended until the end of their obligated service."

Stop-loss policy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Originally Posted by Caprisun

There are a number of legitimate reasons to continue to serve (and I don't really like that you call it an "excuse," Im not excusing or apologizing for anyone.) One of the most notable being there are no more American troops fighting in Iraq and the war is officially over. It also depends on what you do in the military. Special forces such as what MarineRecon is a part of do more to create peace and prosperity than most humanitarian organizations, sadly. Another person might feel compelled to protect his brothers in arms. He'll say, "as long as my countrymen are somwhere fighting and getting shot at, I want to be there with them to do my part and make sure they get home safe." That is a legitimate moral imperative in my opinion.

1. American troops may be out, but that does not mean the American presence is out. Imperialism is about leaving but making sure that you're still in control of the country. Are the American bases also going to get up and just fly out of the country?

2. "as long as my countrymen are somwhere fighting and getting shot at, I want to be there with them to do my part and make sure they get home safe." I'm sure a lot of Iraqi and Afghan "insurgents" say that to themselves too.

Originally Posted by Caprisun

I should know better than to engage Laughing Man in a debate, but here goes nothin: "The policy has been legally challenged several times. However, federal courts have consistently found that military service members contractually agree that their term of service may be involuntarily extended until the end of their obligated service."

Stop-loss policy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Don't say that the contract never changes when you get into the military because stop-loss clearly shows that it does happen and it can happen without the consent of one of the parties involved namely the signers of the contract.

Originally Posted by MarineRecon

That's how it is in every Military. That's what a Military does, follow orders. Please, before youstart a debate about a war learn exactly what a Military is. If not then get out of this thread.

Well now you are just obfuscating. Are there or are there not there such things as illegal orders in the military? If you are told to kill a civilian, are you require to follow that order?