Thread: Demonstrating: Violent or Peaceful?

Originally Posted by Supernova

Are we speaking about action focused on a systemic problem or a particular event?

The boy is dead, and despite what your natural emotions tell you, causing further damage to property or people, including those responsible, will never do anything to help that.

I'm not saying it would. What I'm saying is actions should have consequences.

Mobs don't go after specific targets, that is my entire point. Rioting mobs going after whatever is available, and near by. Like the UK rioting where they were burning down innocent businesses and shops that had nothing to do with anything.

What consequence would be more suitable then?

Originally Posted by Omnis Dei

I'm not saying it would. What I'm saying is actions should have consequences.

Then punish him as you would any other person who comitted such an act in your society.

Originally Posted by Supernova

Are we speaking about action focused on a systemic problem or a particular event?

Police shooting people for no reason is a systemic problem.

I can see why people want to do this. I have the urge almost everyday to just go blow up parliament.
The only other option is literally getting to the top, which will take years and years and changing it from there.
For example changing the hiring process of police and changing the policies drastically.

I have to agree with Gavin I think.
Peaceful protests are the best to garner support for your cause.
If you're still being oppressed, or they otherwise are not listening to your ideas even when you have
huge numbers (Occupy), then you organise violent protests aimed specifically at the target.

I think the problem - why peaceful protests aren't working - is that we simply do not have them enough and in large enough numbers.
We need to instill a sense of responsibility in the general public. I'd say 95% do not have that.
That is probably due to overworking.

The other thing is simple protests aren't enough. You need to organize specific action that will help you reach your goal (which is the one thing that the occupy movement is lacking in). I.E., for Gandhi and the Indian National Congress Party, it was the cotton boycott and the salt march. Not being listened to by those in power is not for lack of violence. You have to make them listen to you, and turning to violence will only result in them resisting much more. It's like a Chinese finger trap.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otpor

It depends on who specifically you are talking about.

I think part of the problem of your question is the thread title. Demonstration is something you do at a protest. A protest should be short, strong and direct, when it drags people start ignoring the protest.

But a revolution is different. When a protester is willing to lay their life for the cause, its a revolution. Thats when things get unavoidably violent. Innocent people always die in a revolution. How will the protesters react to such horrifying deaths? The protesters are going to decide just how bloody their revolution is going to be.

The biggest problem with protester violence is the retaliation of the government is nondiscriminate. Once those soldiers or cops in the middle of it, everyone looks like the enemy!

Rather then reacting as hostile as the government, its more important that the revolution never loses hope. Neighbors and strangers are brought together and that gives them a greater strength than any corrupt government.

Part of the reason Otpor was successful was that they made a great effort to make police across the country understand that the police weren't their enemy, only Milosevic.

Demonstrations start out peaceful generally. There is that boiling point that the people no longer feel like they are being heard, and they start going out doing their own stuff, what they feel is right. When it comes to the violence, it must be selective one. One meant to maintain/strive for a balance.

So far, the policing force of america has made it their duty, to no longer serve the people, but to serve themselves. To a degree I understand that Its a job, and they need work, but to pick up a badge and go forth committing the horrible crimes we see coming from officers in america..... its fucking sickenning. Can post videos of cops being caught on camera planting drugs, can show you them harming your children on all levels, from basic manhandeling to pummelling, to killing. They parade around in their cruisers, clad in black, strapped to the teeth.... and when they step forward, again, past the line I've set, what am I supposed to do? Am I to sit and set the example for my fellow man, that we will sit by like a fucking dog and let them do what they please despite the moral implications?

We have to set an example, when they make the challenge. We cannot allow them to play us like dogs and children, it is supposed to be the other way around. Instead year after year they refine their wording and speech as to allow them the most power when charging you with whatever it is they are focused on. Its sad how easily cops trick people into incriminating/implicating themselves....

Where do I draw the line? Well on a personal 1 to 1 level, I try to play ball, job is a job and I will never believe all cops are bad, so its only fair that if they are coming to me genuinely that i give them some respect. Now if cops came to the door asking to search the place based off of heresay, I'm just gonna ask for a warrant, to which if they don't I'll tell them to have a nice day and close the door in their face. Sadly.... I wonder how long it'll be till they'll be ok with the door being shut in their face.

And i'm not just talking about the police anymore, talking about the government (i'm getting back to violence and protests), fema, fbi. Mandatory "vaccinations", checks for weapons, food supply, etc etc. They've already charged some kids with being terrorists, claiming to have found some plans and shit for some bullshit attack..... its all about making examples.

If one side sits down, they are only giving the example that they are either to scared or to strong to care. Sadly the majority of america is Thought to be lazy pigs, so the idea that we would be like europe n the way we handle our police brutality.... is a dream. We claim it to be to be a show of good sportsmanship, to walk away as we are being hit with mace and batons but honestly I believe it to be cowardice.

To many people in for themselves, if that wasn't the case we'd stand strong against them taking our brothers and sisters and putting them into vans, we'd match them, locking arm n arm. Instead we let them label anything resist as violent. You don't have to harm another person to pull your friends back, you just have to be willing to put your own ass on the line, sadly as I said, I believe people are to cowardly to do that.

That is the time I, and many others seem to be waiting for, the moment the we decide its time to stop them harassing the protests and taking people more out of making an example out of them as opposed to actually keeping the demonstration peacefull. Don't think that to be true? You call shooting rubber bullets and metal tear gas canister/flashbangs into crowds of upset people peaceful? They are poking the bear in an attempt to make him look savage, and they've succeeded. The violence must be selective, non of this breaking random windows and tagging bullshit.

Spectrum holds true and to that there is such a thing as forward movement through defensive violence. MLK had a nice dream, but it was, and still is just that, a dream. I still hear people at work say some of the most racist ridiculous bullshit. The only thing that has changed is a few laws implicating loss of money if you break them. People haven't changed. Just as lazy as ever.

We do not have to beat them at their as much as we need to balance it. We start throwing molotovs, they bring the media back, and we loose the strength of our numbers. But if we simply dis-obey, we hold our ground, and by that I do not mean wait till they arrest you, I MEAN HOLDING YOUR FUCKING GROUND......

They will eventually raise their bid to high, and at that moment, they will have made us stronger than they could have ever feared possible.

We assemble-> they fence and arrest
We stare them down at their barricades -> they shoot teargas/flashbangs/use mace

If no one does something violent on a defensive level, people will leave simply out of fear, the policing having made enough examples, going unchallenged/punished.
There will not be a need for them to broadcast the anarchists in guise of being occupy, as the masses will be tired, their lazy asses not used to walking the streets like back in the day, they will go back to their huts and they will.... do what they've always done.... wait for someone else to come along and either do it for them, or to show them the way.

The problem is, we don't have it quite as bad as some of the places the more violent protests stem from, its good.... but the general middle class is to busy trying to get that next notch on the ladder to focus on whats instore for their children and their childrens children. If we don't fight now, we will fight eventually..... people act so clueless of why people get passionate enough to do the things they do at protests.... they just don't know.

And thats pretty much what it boils down to, are you willing to risk your future, for the past present and future of those to come? I know I am, just waiting for crowds to come back, its still the summer after all, why wait till more rains and snow to be right back where we were last year......

If your not willing to fight for yourself to not be maced/arrested for the general bullshit they chum up => like here where an officer assualts someone, and then they arrest him

If not for you, at least for your brothers and sisters. And i don't just mean your personal friends and family, i'm talking about your brethren in arms, your Earthly, human family. People need to evolve past selfish thinking on so many levels. I understand self preservation but.... when your out there trying to give a message, and these black clad bullies are just pushing you around and snatching your brothers and sisters off the street for just the most rediculous crap..... how can you just let them bend your cause over and rape it? We are trying to win the populace of america over, and to an extent they believe the policing to be necessary, as the mainstream media is in "their" pocket for the most, being fed constant twisted version of shit. So when they see someone getting arrested, looking like a bum, they think lowly "oh he was probably on drugs or doing something". Which is why we must stop them from arresting our brothers and sisters. So they stop twisting it past resistance.

We do not have to physically fight them, as much as we simply have to pull our own from them. Amidst the chaos, the police will as i said before, bid to far, and lead by far, the worst example of any us. They will inevitably incite a riot through this process, and if done through my method, will make the protest look peaceful, while at the same time incriminating the police as far as they are willing to take it.

I just hope this pack mentality can be obtained before our numbers are once again to few :/ until then, in my eyes its just a bunch of mother fuckin douche-bags, pretending to give a shit about eachother, when in fact they are just angry they can't go back to be ignorantly blissfull of how gracefully our government has gone about raping our country over the years (since kennedy fo sure anyway.... talked about ending the federal reserve.... got a bullet in the head).

Just a bunch of sad selfish (to their blood family), pretending they are different from the greedy fucks breaking the system. They parade around pretending to give a shit about one another, yet stand by when their brothers TRULLY demonstrating, have a large tent brought over them, filled, and then entered by several police, taking one out at a time. I'd show you the video, but by now the words in the search engine only bring thousands of videos to which its been lost in. These people held their ground together in the street, laying out actually, and when they couldn't seperate them, they brought in this tent so they could hide more brutal methods to be used. What would of happened if the crowd stormed the tent for their brothers and sisters being harmed for being TRUE protestors? Well I can tell you one thing.... police sure would have had a hard time trying to arrest EVERYONE. You can put some water in the ocean in a cup..... but how about the whole ocean, or a sea, lake.... pond.... the cup sinks and disappears.

I personally, am not about to risk my pottential for a bunch of people pretending to be ready to do anything other than run in fear. In their too lies a dilemna because if I feel this way so must others right? We have to define the practices of peace and the practices of violence. Violence is a cop shoving someone just talking to them, and then having that person arrested. And people inturrpting this....they would of been the peace-keepers.

Sadly the only people "keeping peace" are just as equally scared cowards, just they feel righteous due to law, and protection from their pack mentality/weapons.

The moment we share the pack mentality of the police when it comes to protecting our own, we will be to much for them to handle, with weapons or not.

I've stood with the few left in the city hear, sadly our numbers aren't the same as in other cities..... so there is very little pushing from either side. In the end for here I tend to be more valuable making the communications and spreading the news via web. Once they start causing harm to my brothers and sisters, here where I can reach.... I will be there.

How many of you will/can say this for your fellow man/woman? Would you stand and hold? Or buckle and go? Will you let them drag away the young simply because they do not share your blood and know your name? Sadly I think more would feel more comfortable making an excuse for their earthly siblings being arrested. Yet many go on protesting "this isn't about me, this is about all of us getting together and doing whats best for the whole and not just a few".

Its lovely n all.... but in comparison to our siblings in other countries..... its a fucking joke. There so much potential.... just waiting to be tapped.



When I start seeing more protests such as these, where people actually go to hold their ground, will I make my return to help them. Cops gotta be stopped, otherwise they will, like a puppy, go around unchecked, tearing everything they feel fit to apart. They are marching as we speak, behind closed doors in between emails. All we must do is take to the streets and have a little gusto left over to do something more than run but yeah.... so much potential sitting idle.....

Originally Posted by Oceanboy

Where do I draw the line?

You draw the line when you have nothing to lose. People have an illusion of "freedom" or "society" that they are unwilling to sacrifice to challenge the status quo.

If you are dirt poor, have no job, have no home, have no family... have nothing to lose... those are the ones who will bark at the status quo, not the rich and wealthy.

Originally Posted by Mindraker

You draw the line when you have nothing to lose. People have an illusion of "freedom" or "society" that they are unwilling to sacrifice to challenge the status quo.

If you are dirt poor, have no job, have no home, have no family... have nothing to lose... those are the ones who will bark at the status quo, not the rich and wealthy.

Guess that really depends on what you can be thankful for.

Oceanboy, along the lines of what you're talking about....
It just reminds me of these "strikes" that workers have. These pussy-ass strikes where some executive or administrator
says that they are hurting the business and the people that rely on the business so the workers end their strike.
What the fuck is that?
That's literally the point of the strike, to show how important the workers are. You don't go back just as your point was being made.

I feel this is also due to people not really banding together. They are still too focused on their personal short-term detriments.
I don't know if this will change soon. Humans are basically evolved to only focus and plan may a couple of days or weeks in to the future.
It has to get really, really bad before we start sacrificing ourselves or our privileges to make it better.