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    Thread: Rape vs. Murder

    1. #1
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      Rape vs. Murder

      In general, which is worse? I'm hoping thread discussion will cover a few things in particular:

      1. Which individual poses a larger threat to society in general - and a local community in particular - a murderer or a rapist?
      2. Recidivism rates and repeat offences
      3. How seriously does the judicial system take each offense?

      I assume most people would say murder, but I think that populist view stems from a knee-jerk fear of death. I'm sure we can all think of several circumstances where an otherwise reasonable person can be driven to kill, but not a single one when it comes to rape. It takes a a second to pull a trigger, but much longer to commit to an act of rape. It would take a much more barbaric individual to put in that kind of cold calculation and follow through.
      -------
      I don't have the time to properly outline my take on the matter just yet, hence the half-ass answer above, but I figured this post should be enough to get the conversation started.

      @ Mods: Sorry, I accidentally posted this in the wrong section. But now that it's already here, please don't move it until there's at least 10 posts or 48 hours have passed (whichever happens first). This way people who don't normally visit Extended Discussion can see the thread and throw in their two cents, hopefully reeling in more participants. It's almost always the same people going back and forth on ED, so it'd be great see some fresh faces in a thread like this.
      Last edited by GavinGill; 09-23-2014 at 09:09 AM. Reason: too tired for grammarz
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      I would say murder is worse, since I considering killing someone the worst possible thing that can happen to a person. Since your basically permanently erasing their existence from the universe. I think both should be taken very serious though.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Alric View Post
      Since your basically permanently erasing their existence from the universe.
      Non-existence (the state) in and of itself isn't exactly a bad thing though, is it? It's like thinking back to a time before you were born - nothing inherently positive nor negative about it.
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      Quote Originally Posted by GavinGill View Post
      In general, which is worse? I'm hoping thread discussion will cover a few things in particular:

      1. Which individual poses a larger threat to society in general - and a local community in particular - a murderer or a rapist?
      2. Recidivism rates and repeat offences
      3. How seriously does the judicial system take each offense?

      I assume most people would say murder, but I think that populist view stems from a knee-jerk fear of death. I'm sure we can all think of several circumstances where an otherwise reasonable person can be driven to kill, but not a single one when it comes to rape. It takes a a second to pull a trigger, but much longer to commit to an act of rape. It would take a much more barbaric individual to put in that kind of cold calculation and follow through.
      Both pose the same threat, IMO. Although I'm not sure which one is more likely to repeat offend, on average.

      You basically said this, but yeah.... It takes a sick kind of person to rape, whereas pretty much anyone can get angry enough to kill. I've been pretty close myself.
      If we're talking about a guy, he needs to be turned on at the person's suffering, whereas with murder, it can be simply out of anger, frustration etc.
      OTOH, I could imagine a scenario where someone is drunk or whatever, tries to fuck someone, the person says they don't want to at the last second, but by that point the rapist has been overcome by hormones and has very little ability to stop themself.
      It's possible that's just as powerful as rage.

      So as always, it depends on the scenario. Which I guess is why people get different sentences.
      The only real big problem with the justice system is that women are constantly let off easy in rape, and sometimes with murder too, especially single mothers.

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      It depends on circumstances imo... how the person was murdered, what the reason was, any family left behind etc. all play a role in how bad I would view it. Same with rape... it's always bad in my mind, but some cases are more brutal than others.


      Quote Originally Posted by GavinGill View Post
      Non-existence (the state) in and of itself isn't exactly a bad thing though, is it? It's like thinking back to a time before you were born - nothing inherently positive nor negative about it.
      More than likely you can't remember the first couple years of your life. Does that mean you didn't exist then? Did you not exist as a sperm? What exactly is 'YOU'? Is the you in 10 hours from the same you as now?. But no, non-existence wouldn't be a bad thing or a good thing. It wouldn't be a thing at all. To label it a thing would be to acknowledge an existence.

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      Interesting question, but pretty hard to answer in any straightforward way. I mean the basic question of which is worse, the followup questions are much better. The basic question is apples and oranges. With murder of course the victim is dead. You have to hurt them really really reeeeally bad to kill them, but then it's over. Some people are saying that because it's over there's no more pain, and yeah, that's good - but the person's entire LIFE is over. Barring ideas about reincarnation or an afterlife that's permanent. So that makes it pretty damn bad. But on the other hand if you rape someone you hurt them really really bad (note one less really and a lot less 'e's) and cause them extreme humiliation and shame and dysfunction that can last a long time - possibly the rest of their life, and could ruin their chances of having normal relationships from that point forward. So it's more like torture, the gift that keeps on giving. There's a lot more suffering involved. Of course this is assuming we're talking about the worst kind of rape, violent sexual assault.

      When you mention ordinary people being pushed to commit murder by extraordinary circumstances, I think in most cases that wouldn't technically be considered murder. Or well, depending on what you mean. It could be manslaughter or self defense. The only situations I can think of where an ordinary person would commit murder as defined by the courts it would still be a terrible thing and a crime and should be punished as such. But this kind of murder - a crime of passion for instance, wouldn't likely have a high recidivism rate, unless the perp is a really hot headed person whpo tends to get carried away a lot. In that case if they're murdering people when they get too excited, then yeah, they need to be off the streets.

      As for which type of perp poses a worse threat to the society - it depends on their modus. If a rapist is male and only rapes females, then only half the population is at risk. But if he does it frequently then that doesn't matter - in fact I guess it doesn't really matter a all. It's just the sheer numbers that really matter. So a mass murderer would probably be the worst, though I think in general they usually only commit that kind of crime once right? I mean, unless it's a political leader like Hitler or Mussolini or something.

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      Quote Originally Posted by GavinGill View Post
      Non-existence (the state) in and of itself isn't exactly a bad thing though, is it? It's like thinking back to a time before you were born - nothing inherently positive nor negative about it.
      It is a horrible thing. Yeah, you are not capable of experiencing it since you were erased from the universe, but from the point of you living right now that is about the worst thing that could ever happen to you.
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      Quote Originally Posted by GavinGill View Post
      Non-existence (the state) in and of itself isn't exactly a bad thing though, is it? It's like thinking back to a time before you were born - nothing inherently positive nor negative about it.
      This neglects one thing: your survivors.

      If I get raped and it was public knowledge, it would hurt me deeply on a personal, emotional, and psychological level. I would need years of therapy, I would probably develop PTSD, but the thing is I'd have family and friends who would support me, even if it's a small group, and I could get help.

      If I am murdered, my family will be irrevocably destroyed. My wife and my mom will probably never recover in their lifetimes, and they will develop prejudices, fears, and hatred based on the murder type. Looking at the ISIL beheadings for example. If that happened to me, I don't think my wife would ever be able to use the Internet if she stumbled on that happening to me. My mom would probably cocoon up and die from grief. This doesn't mention the friends I don't realize who would be deeply hurt and scared at my murder. Because murders are sudden things. If I committed suicide, there would be warning signs that people could trace back and figure out what happened. But, a murder is random.

      Also, with rape vs. murder, they could heal with the former because even if it is violent and public, they'd still have me to work with things through.
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      Murder is definitely worse. You are given no chances after you are dead - you can't keep on living. With rape, yes, you can say your life was "ruined", but there are still options - you can make it better. In the end if you can't, you always have the option of suicide.

      Murder leaves you no options. Rape does.
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      Maybe it's because of the mental illness, but I don't see how death is of any real consequence in and of itself. Worst case scenario, you simply cease to be and you're free. Best case scenario, there's an afterlife in which case you don't really "die" after all, you just make a transition from one world to the next. Either way, meh.

      But we're not talking about death itself, just the act that precedes it. Is that (murder) any more barbaric than rape? The consequences of both acts is secondary in this discussion, I want to focus on the act itself and the damaged psyche required to carry out such depraved actions.
      -------
      I don't think I worded that very well, I haven't been sleeping much so I'm a little off, but hopefully you guys get the gist of what I'm trying to say.

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      Murder is still worse. Rapists fit a very specific profile: usually narcissistic and power hungry. Most rape has nothing to do with sexual attraction and everything to do with power and dominance.

      A murderer would be even more damaged and elusive. Notice, most serial killers rape, because it was an act of dominance before extinguishing the light of someone. It is a very dark and scary path that someone willingly undertakes to become a murderer. Rapists would fit a profile and could be changed. I am unsure if a murderer could.
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      In terms of doing the most damage to a human being possible, rape. What I think is worse? Murder. Rape might ruin someone's life, but as long as you live, you still have choices that you can make, you can move on and become stronger. Murder is the death that was not intended for you, it is unnatural. Death will take everybody back into the void someday, and until then they have choices to make. Even if you take everything from a person, if you don't take their life then they can choose to move on, to keep living, and to keep experiencing. The purpose of life is to experience life, to live, to be. You can stop when you're dead. Until then, there is no good reason not to keep on living and to try and do so comfortably, and to try and make others' lives comfortable and enjoyable as well. I think that anybody that hurts others is just screwed up, they know not what they do. Anybody that kills others, even if they don't know what they are doing has permanently snuffed out the potential of the universe--creation, existence itself. That is the ultimate crime, in my eyes. You can do whatever you want to my body, I can take care of myself, I'll probably shoot you in the knee caps for it and cut your tongue out while making your existence a living hell, but I will eventually stop and give you a second chance to redeem yourself. To not give people a second chance, to not forgive, that is the ultimate crime. To kill.

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      Lets look at how these two things effect more than just the victim, but those that are friends with the victim as well. Murder will cease the victims existence. Assuming there is no afterlife the victim will no longer be in pain or suffer. The victim will not have to worry about the traumatic experience of dying because once the deed has been done the victim will not experience anything else. The victims family on the other hand and those that were close to the victim will be devastated by the loss of someone they care for. The death of the victim will be very traumatic to them and they will have to live with that for the rest of their lives. If they cannot get over their loss then they may commit suicide due to grief. Those are all the possibilities I can think of for murder now lets look at rape.

      Rape will leave the victim with a traumatic experience that they will have to live with for the rest of their lives. Those that knew the victim personally will feel sorry for the victim and anger at the perpetrator but other than that, those that are close to the victim will not experience as much emotional turmoil compared to someone that is murdered. The victim may or may not be able to recover. If she does then great, if not then the victim may fall into depression and may even kill themselves over it. If that happens then something similar to what I described during the murder scenario may occur.

      I cannot answer which one is truly worst than the other. Both of these crimes have the potential to cause a very terrible sequence of events.
      Last edited by Daredevilpwn; 10-02-2014 at 10:22 PM.

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      I think you mean "popular" view, not "populist". Calling condemnation of murder "populist" is a bit weird; there's no political campaign to convince people that murder is worse than rape. If anything, comparing the reactions people have to "rape jokes" to the reactions people have to jokes involving murder, I get the impression that people, in general, give the outward impression of being more condemnatory of rape. Paedophilia, too.

      You also swapped the word "kill" for "murder", which again was a weirdly slippery use of language. These two concepts are generally considered distinct, "kill" being morally neutral whereas "murder" implying a lack of necessity and innocence of the victim. If you had instead claimed that "we can all think of several circumstances where an otherwise reasonable person can be driven to murder, but not a single one when it comes to rape", I imagine you would have been met with more scepticism.

      Personally I find them both abhorrent - and find the idea of "ranking" them to be a silly and strange thing to want to do.

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      I would rather be murdered than raped, but that's just my opinion! Though i think a murderer and a rapist pose equal threats to the society, the murderer has a high chance of being punished whereas a rapist will probably be let go by the judicial system.

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      I would rather by raped an keep living, even if I hate my life afterwards. I've been in many very fucked up situations and I don't think that can change. I want to fight too much, if someone tried to rape me it would almost be too perfect a situation to cut loose, and I really want to, but I don't personally think it's right so I will just keep living hoping it doesn't happen, and if it does, I'll handle it my way.

      edit:


      Here's a personal question for women. I understand men are a lot larger than you usually, but what makes you submit like his beaten little puppy? I know not all do, but at that point I've chalked down the situation to life an death. I would personally go stark raving mad, mostly because I have a really awful temper, but even if I were outnumbered or he had a knife, or gun or something, I would go tearing limb for limb. If I were on my knees forced to suck I either would bite that shit off or grab that cunt's nuts and fucking rip so hard I expect to be covered in blood and jizz. I just don't think I could go down without it looking like an exorcism or something.
      Last edited by snoop; 10-11-2014 at 01:28 AM.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Anju View Post
      I would rather be murdered than raped, but that's just my opinion! Though i think a murderer and a rapist pose equal threats to the society, the murderer has a high chance of being punished whereas a rapist will probably be let go by the judicial system.
      I agree only with the latter in the sense that rape is under-reported and under-charged. Do you agree, or do you think many people simply look away (some obviously do)? Or is there another reason you say this?

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      It is easy to brag on the internet that you are capable of single-handedly fighting off a group of rapists carrying knifes and guns. Your 'temper' is not going to save you in a real life situation, especially because you are unprepared whereas the rapists have everything planned out. And why aren't you asking why people 'submit' and allow themselves to be murdered instead of fighting back?

      Also, thanks for demonstrating so well the reason why rape is undercharged -- people wanting to shift the blame to the victim.
      Last edited by Anju; 10-11-2014 at 04:11 AM.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Anju View Post
      It is easy to brag on the internet that you are capable of single-handedly fighting off a group of rapists carrying knifes and guns. Your 'temper' is not going to save you in a real life situation, especially because you are unprepared whereas the rapists have everything planned out. And why aren't you asking why people 'submit' and allow themselves to be murdered instead of fighting back?

      Also, thanks for demonstrating so well the reason why rape is undercharged -- people wanting to shift the blame to the victim.
      I wasn't bragging so much as stating that I'm either raped or dead anyway, and you clearly are unaware but I've got major anger issues and have some rather sociopathic tendencies (I've posted in the help section once or twice about it). It wasn't bragging so much as saying, welp I would be in an impossible situation either way so I'd try and kill them.

      Also, are you offended by my questions? No one was given so if you received any then you made it up all by yourself. Also, thanks for reproving for the billionth time over that the internet isn't very good at communicating what it means to and for also demonstrating so well yourself why have the people who don't report rapes don't seem give a shit. I simply asked you a question in regards to why rape is so... less dealt with by the justice system. If somebody can't even ask a question (of a serious problem no less) needing an answer, what exactly are you supposed to do?

      Get offended I guess.

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      Quote Originally Posted by snoop View Post
      Here's a personal question for women. I understand men are a lot larger than you usually, but what makes you submit like his beaten little puppy? I know not all do, but at that point I've chalked down the situation to life an death. I would personally go stark raving mad, mostly because I have a really awful temper, but even if I were outnumbered or he had a knife, or gun or something, I would go tearing limb for limb. If I were on my knees forced to suck I either would bite that shit off or grab that cunt's nuts and fucking rip so hard I expect to be covered in blood and jizz. I just don't think I could go down without it looking like an exorcism or something.
      Fear has a tendency to make most people curl up and submit, the people that fight back are in the minority. If you can make someone feel powerless, they won't have the will to fight. They've tapped out before the would-be rapist has even laid a hand on them. Which is why I don't think violent sexual assault is any worse than a "non-violent" one (which is a silly concept, since forceful penetration is a violent act in and of itself). Whether you break bones or their mental will to fight back, you've done a great deal of harm.

      We have a park by my place where people frequently get "taxed" (lightweight robbery, usually by teens) in warmer months. Whenever it happens, you see the mark/target scrunch up and make themselves smaller, hear their voice quiver, turn submissive, and sometimes even offer more things that the robbers didn't even ask for. When it comes to rape, it's the same idea but the power dynamics are dialed way up. Women in general are brought up to be rather submissive too, at least more so than men, so that plays a part as well.


      Quote Originally Posted by snoop View Post
      I agree only with the latter in the sense that rape is under-reported and under-charged. Do you agree, or do you think many people simply look away (some obviously do)? Or is there another reason you say this?
      There was a recent incident that got some heavy coverage here in Canada about a girl that was raped (I think it may have been in Nova Scotia, not entirely sure though). She was an underage teen, she was gang-raped at a party, people took pictures and spread them on social media, she was blamed and bulled, she broke and committed suicide. When the case made it to court, no one was imprisoned because the judge said there was "no way to prove that it wasn't consensual."

      - She was underage
      - She was so drunk that she was physically ill and vomiting during the assault (consent can't legally be obtained if the individual is intoxicated)
      - She was telling them to stop and asking the onlooking crowd to help

      These three factors make it quite clear that she wasn't in any condition to give consent in the first place, nor did it seem like she was enjoying herself in the video. But the court said fuck it and dismissed the charges. There was another one where a girl met up with a guy for sex through Craigslist - everything was going fine until he forcefully sodomized her. When she took him to court, the jury didn't consider it rape because of the whole Craigslist thing (in essence, they didn't realize that consenting to one sexual act doesn't mean you give the other person permission to whatever they want with you). This sort of thing isn't too uncommon, it happens far more often than it should. Rapists are either let go, or they're given a slap on the wrist (all things considered). Hell, accidental death (manslaughter) can get you a harsher sentence than rape.


      Quote Originally Posted by Denziloe View Post
      I think you mean "popular" view, not "populist". Calling condemnation of murder "populist" is a bit weird; there's no political campaign to convince people that murder is worse than rape.

      You also swapped the word "kill" for "murder", which again was a weirdly slippery use of language.
      You're right, my mistake.

      Quote Originally Posted by Denziloe View Post
      If anything, comparing the reactions people have to "rape jokes" to the reactions people have to jokes involving murder, I get the impression that people, in general, give the outward impression of being more condemnatory of rape. Paedophilia, too.
      People may say that rape bothers them, but if it truly did, criminal sentencing would reflect that. Kind of like how people say things like poverty, war, government corruption, etc. bother them, but they do nothing to remedy the situation. They know it's bad, but they haven't thought about it enough to take it personally and fix the problem.

      Quote Originally Posted by Denziloe View Post
      Personally I find them both abhorrent - and find the idea of "ranking" them to be a silly and strange thing to want to do.
      I was running on very little sleep when I created the thread so I wasn't able to express myself clearly. Tbh, I still don't know what I'm trying to get at with this thread. I guess what I meant to ask was something more along the lines of "Why doesn't sexual assault bother us as much as it should?" or "Why isn't rape taken as seriously as murder?"
      Last edited by GavinGill; 10-11-2014 at 05:31 AM.

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      Interesting post Gavin, we had a string of serial-rapings going on where I was living just before moving. Truthfully, for what reason I couldn't say, I forgot that it is quite often the case where this shit happens and people just watch. Just some things I was wondering because I have a hard time putting myself in other people's shoes. In fact it's almost impossible, but I try because I want to understand what is going through a human beings mind when this stuff is happening.

      It might sound perverse, but my distaste, disdain, or maybe utter lack of caring altogether allows me to find odd beauty in any moment--even one where someone is just sitting there, someone is about to get raped, slaves are running from plantations, or the revolution of a government and its people. To not and try to understand, to not try and know what it means to exist right then is so down right opposite of my natural inclination that it honestly keeps me up at night. I can't stop thinking about different scenarios where different shit is happening to me and other people. I digress.

      So, Anju, so you have the name of a character from one of my favorite Zelda games I'll try and be less of a dick because I know where you're coming from. Most women that get asked about this or most people that get asked touchy questions start to get "feelings" about what the other person is saying and think it means you have to defend yourself or somebody is being verbally attacked. When I asked about rape above, I was not trying to do any of that. I was trying to understand. I also was not trying to shove off blame on the victims, how can you blame a victim of rape for being raped. That's retarded. I was asking if it were under-charged or under-reported because that's always what I used to hear, it was a nice point to start off the conversation, you know? However, on the subject of woman making false rape accusations, I honestly feel like if I were more vindictive of a person, woman who falsely scream rape (and know they're doing it) should actually get raped by that person. She said she got raped right? In my eye's that's poetic justice because that woman knew she was being a total piece of shit and fucking someone over. However, shit like that belongs in the sadistic thoughts of mentally ill individuals and any books they write. It doesn't have a place on this earth.

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