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    Thread: Understanding homophobia.

    1. #1
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      Understanding homophobia.

      Disclaimer:
      - This is not a discussion about homosexuals but about homophobes. I don't want us to discuss the legality of marriage or if homosexuality is okay or not. I am for the legalization of same-sex marriage and for the respect and equality of all people. That is not the matter at hand.
      - This is also not a discussion about the behaviour of homophobes such as whether or not they indulge in visible discrimination but about what they feel and what they think.


      I know many homophobes that I love dearly. They are good people. But as our society becomes more open minded, I am disappointed to see that the hate is simply shifting towards the other group. (I think the main message, is there should be no hate, no disappointment in other's perspective, only interest).

      So, this is for pro-choice people, so they can understand homophobes. First, you must understand these principles (bold) and exercises (italic):

      1. Caring
      Pro-choice people often make the remark "I don't care what another person does." That is a statement of indifference, of lack of interest, the opposite of love. A loving person would be interested in a person's feelings and what they do.

      Thought exercise (Really do put yourself in the scenario, as a loving parent):
      You are a parent and you have a daughter. You love her. She's your daughter. Do you want her to become a prostitute? No. You learn she is a prostitute. Do you stop loving her. No. Do you have a serious conversation with her, hoping that she can consider other options. Many would say yes. A lot of people, however, will act very emotionally in this situation and might forget to give loving support, instead they might speak angrily or in a panicky manner because of their fears.

      2. Innate Disgust
      People have an innate disgust for homosexuality. If you don't happen to experience this, follow the following exercise:
      I'm not gonna make it hard. Think of incest. Think of you and your sibling. You and one of your parents (in the context of consenting adults who are in love... or just looking for casual sex or romance). Now, as a parent, do you want your children to grow up to marry each other and have kids together. You would still love them, but it feels wrong. And it matters to you, because you love them.

      So this explains it. Homophobes are people who care and feel an innate disgust for homosexuals. I am curious as to why people feel this disgust, is it because, like direct family, we think of each other as too much the same? "That's my sister! We're the same family! I couldn't love her like that! Ew!"... "That's another male just like me! I couldn't love him like that! Ew!"

      Now... do homophobes have a responsibility to come to terms with this disgust? To embrace the possibilities of desire and to not feel that disgust anymore. Remember that here, I am talking about a respectful homophobe who doesn't discriminate against homosexuals but just can't find it in themselves to accept it in themselves. This discussion is important because society should not be saying "hey, people can do what they want, I don't care. I'm not them. Legalize everything so people can do everything. This is not something that affects me!"; society should be saying "I love my neighbors and I care about their decisions and their lives. Their love is like mine. I can feel it's beauty!"

      How do people get over the disgust they have for people with atypical orientations such as homosexuality, pedophilia and bestiality (The two last ones do not refer to those who act out their desire but who are victims of those desires and have the strength not to act them out). Let's say your brother is a pedophile. And you love this brother. He's a good person. Can you get rid of that disgust? Is this disgust the innate mechanism that is in place to prevent us from having that orientation? Is everyone technically bisexual, but some part of our brain is closed minded and disgusted by the other gender making us heterosexual? I don't think that's it at all but they're all questions worth thinking about.

      Second disclaimer: I am sorry that I used the word disgust because it can be offensive. Don't be offended. I love sushi. I think sushi is awesome. But many people I know say it is disgusting. (I thought it was disgusting the first time too.)

    2. #2
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      I'm sure some of the people that say they don't care mean it in the way you are describing, but when I say I don't care, I am specifically referring to not caring what a person does in the privacy of their own home so long as it does not hurt others. I am not saying I don't care about their feelings or recognize them as legitimate and that they deserve to get married only because I do too as a straight man. What I am saying is that it's none of my business and honestly don't want it to be my business. I don't want them in my business either, or anyone for that matter. I find something wrong with being hypocrites and wanting happiness for a certain group of people but believing that another doesn't deserve the same thing simply because you find it gross or personally wrong. What a childish/immature view point. That is the kind of thing I can't stand and I have a much larger problem with than I ever could homosexuality, even if the thought of two men having sex is personally almost repulsive to think about.

      edit:

      By the way, if the type of not caring you are speaking about includes the kind I just described, and you believe that I should care whether or not they are in love, then let me say this. I don't care who anybody loves, homosexual or heterosexual. You are not going to force me to care about that--again, it's none of my business and don't want it to be. If this is wrong to you, then you are going to have to live with that, because nothing you can say is going to make me want to concern myself in the affairs of others.
      Last edited by snoop; 01-13-2015 at 02:46 PM.
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      Hmmm.... I do agree with all you say. I have just been thinking very hard about this concept of caring/not caring about other people's lifestyles. (I only made it about homosexuality because I started thinking about this after hearing making comments about that topic). Maybe I am making the mistake of thinking the word caring has only one meaning. I definitely agree with you with the fact that I don't care what people do in their bedchambers, in the sense, that it is not my business and I don't ever ask these questions to people or even make suppositions in my head. I do find it impolite. So much so that I don't use the word homosexual anymore. I use the word homoromantic which refers to people who have relationships of romantic nature. (I find saying homosexual impolite because you directly make a comment about someone's sexlife.)

      So, yes, this "I don't care statement" has to be okay... But, it seems incomplete as an attitude. (and I am especially talking about people you know and are close to you).

      (And on an unrelated note to sexuality but still about this caring dilemma), let's say your partner is a smoker and you are against that lifestyle but you still love them. you can say you don't care. You have this view, that smoking is wrong and someone you love is a smoker. You obviously can't do much about it. I don't know where I am going with this. But just saying "I don't care!" seems like an incomplete attitude to me. And smoking is physically harmful. When talking about incest between to consenting adults that you personally know and care about, it's no longer the same, because even if you are personally against that, the behavior is not harmful but instead, good. So how do you reconcile "being personally against something" and caring/loving someone? Especially when the goal is not to convince them to stop what they are doing! For example, back to the homosexual topic. Assuming homosexuality is equally good to heterosexuality, then do homophobes have the responsibility to remove the repulsion that they feel inside them? Or do they have to just keep feeling the way they do? See, the problem I have with this is it seems hypocrite to me to continue believing something is repulsive and somehow act out like it's great in daylight.

      The reason I say this is because in high school, I was in a social justice club and I have seen students speaking up against discrimination, saying that homosexuals were great people and yatti yatta in front of the public. But then, when they talk among themselves, they obviously are repulsed by it, the way they speak. That's what bugs me. How can people act like they are for it and then harbor feelings of repulsion inside and among themselves? If something is not wrong, why are we repulsed? (Homoromanticism is not something that repulses me personally but other things do such as incest. This conversation is more about how we should feel about lifestyles that are different then ours, whatever they may be. I'm just using homosexuality as an example.)
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      This conversation is more about how we should feel about lifestyles that are different then ours, whatever they may be. I'm just using homosexuality as an example.
      We are supposed to feel something about other peoples lifestyles as long as we do that. But if our thought changes, then the feeling will be able to change with that change of thought. And since people in general do feel something about other peoples lifestyles. Then whose problem is the feeling? It is the person who think and feels something about others. It is the person who are feeling something that IS the problem. The problem starts with the person who notice that there is a problem. So it is also that persons problem to deal with their self, and not to project their own personal problem on others as "the" problem.

      There is hetrosexuals and homosexuals. There is ocean and land. There is sun and there is rain.. How could it be otherwise if it already as it IS..? Hating or complaining about it will just make it worse. Just learn to accept it and there is no problem to deal with any more.

      Homophobes, are simply people who havn't been able to accept the fact that some other people have this same feeling of love that they have themselfs. With the smal difference that the love is directed in the opposite way. So the homophobes says, you cant feel that way. Because I dont feel the way you do.. So that makes it the wrong way. So you must take my way, since I dont like your way.. And I am right, because the majority of people feel it this way.. So that must be the true way. And that makes it one way, and that is my way. Why? Because I feel that way..
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      DreamyBear, I definitely agree that the problem is for the "judges" to deal with rather than the ones being judged.

      I know people who are homosexuals. That piece of information doesn't change the way I feel about them or how I feel about them. It doesn't make me feel in any uncomfortable way at all. I know people who are homophobes. And the fact that they have that opinion also doesn't bother me at all. But logically, that doesn't sound right.

      (Again that's just an example. I feel like I am surrounded with two mentalities. The ones who have traditional values and follow instinctive wisdom (you can see where the flaws would arise...) and those who seem to think that a logical argument is the only okay argument (it isn't). And I understand both these people's point of view and I can empathize with both but like with everything, drastic views are always wrong and both sound ignorant to me. But since I am just as ignorant, I don't know where to go from here and how to put everything together.
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      I understand what you are saying and I share your view of both sides of this coin. Since you dont seem to have any problem with either homosexuals or homophobes. This thread seems to be more about moral perception?

      You say that
      But logically, that doesn't sound right.

      And I understand both these people's point of view and I can empathize with both but like with everything, drastic views are always wrong and both sound ignorant to me.
      It sound like you having some trubble with figuring out wich of the two mentalities you should accept as the more moraly accepteble. And stil be able to not denying or condemn the other side? Drastic views might sound wrong but I wouldnt be to quick to say that it have to be the wrong thing to do, even if people often might make wrong choices with such a view.. Also drastic is such a flexible word, that it can be hard to know what drastic implyes to others than oneself.
      But since I am just as ignorant, I don't know where to go from here and how to put everything together.
      Sound to me like your more curious than ignorant, there is big difference that makes all the difference to the outcome of any dicussion with that curious state of mind. So let's dig into these questions from where we are now.

      Do you feel that it is something wrong with you view of understanding both perspectives of homophobes and homosexuals at the same time?

      And if that is so. Is it because there something you want to do about it, that makes you wounder about homophobes in particularly?
      You are not your thoughts...

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      Disclaimer: When I will use the word homophobe I mean someone that has a repulsion about homosexuality or a feeling that it is wrong; I am not referring to a hate for homosexual or people who embark in activities that are discriminating and take away people's rights.

      Quote Originally Posted by DreamyBear View Post
      This thread seems to be more about moral perception?
      Perhaps... What is moral perception?

      Quote Originally Posted by DreamyBear View Post
      It sound like you having some trouble with figuring out which of the two mentalities you should accept as the more morally acceptable. And still be able to not denying or condemn the other side? Drastic views might sound wrong but I wouldn't be to quick to say that it have to be the wrong thing to do, even if people often might make wrong choices with such a view.. Also drastic is such a flexible word, that it can be hard to know what drastic implies to others than oneself.
      I'm sorry about that part.... I was having trouble expressing myself there
      I do believe this, and I have heard it said by professors, that all cultures and societies have the same capacity for intelligence. Some use their intelligence to progress using logic and reason. Many great things come out of it. Other cultures use myth and wisdom. And within this stories reside great truths. It's like when you look at the sky and somehow, at that particular moment, you feel this magic, like the whole world makes sense. Or how people can easily understand metaphors. There is importance in both logic and myth/instinctive wisdom/I don't know what to call it. I don't like it when people bash people saying "this person has no inner compass/wisdom" or "this person has no logic". It disturbs me because both people are good and intelligent and it seems wrong to me say that they are stupid... By drastic, I meant people who only believe in logic/science and those who only believe in insight/faith. Both things are beautiful and smart. (or so I think).

      Quote Originally Posted by DreamyBear View Post
      Do you feel that it is something wrong with you view of understanding both perspectives of homophobes and homosexuals at the same time?
      I don't think there is something wrong with me doing that. I think there might be something wrong with me understanding why both are in their rights, because, being opposing views, one seems to be wrong. In my opinion, that would be the homophobes, but because I understand their innate feeling of repulsion, their innate knowledge that tells them, that's wrong ("I'm not gonna take their rights away, but I know it's wrong."), I fail to see how exactly where they are wrong. It's like, I understand why both homophobes are right, and I can't perceive why either is morally wrong...

      Quote Originally Posted by DreamyBear View Post
      And if that is so. Is it because there something you want to do about it, that makes you wonder about homophobes in particularly?
      Well, I try to be a morally ideal person. And humiliating or talking bad about people is something that I do not allow myself. Since I have myself under high supervision, I inadvertently am aware every single time someone else does it. I work in the recreation department with kids and people with mental disability. I have seen so much blatant discrimination to these mentally disabled individual by the staff and when I bring it up... It's like I'm the crazy one. It makes me wonder... Is it possible for people to truly be accepting of everyone. Do people just say "Let's accept everyone no matter our differences! We're all equal" but then they can't stop themselves from still feeling like those people are weird? And now we could say "such people are just very stupid, don't worry about them." No, I can't say that. Because these people are my people. I am surrounded by them. It's everyone. It's the people I love. And I think it might be me too.

      Anyways, it's just the conversation that made me think about this again was of homophobic nature. That's all. I wish I could abolish discrimination but I don't think discrimination is ever truly gone as long as there remains repulsion in a person's heart.

      (I hope the music I am listening to write now is not making me write with an over-dramatic tone....)
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      A lot of people who are homophobic are actually gay them self, or perhaps bisexual with some homosexual preferences, or they are in very strict groups who hate homosexuals. In those cases, they act homophobic to try to fit in with the 'normal' group because subconsciously they fear of being outcasted. Even if they are not gay they might feel pressure to conform with the group's hate, otherwise might be labeled gay or a gay supporter. Then it is even worse if you fear that label might be real.
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      Perhaps... What is moral perception?
      I dont know if that actually is some concept already. But what I meant with this is when you try to analyse different moral thoughts to look for which one that has the most potential to be the higher moral. It think that approach can be quite troublesome if one tries to find ones own right moral in that way. Because seeing moral in that way, becomes more like a law to follow with the help of logic thinking, instead of something you actually should feel with your whole being.

      And since ones moral is at the feeling part of oneself, then I believe that to find the answear to what moral standpoint one should take. Is the one that feels as good as possible for everyone involved, if there happen to be a situation that demands some action. That of course, is easier said than done like with many things.
      I'm sorry about that part.... I was having trouble expressing myself there
      I do believe this, and I have heard it said by professors, that all cultures and societies have the same capacity for intelligence. Some use their intelligence to progress using logic and reason. Many great things come out of it. Other cultures use myth and wisdom. And within this stories reside great truths. It's like when you look at the sky and somehow, at that particular moment, you feel this magic, like the whole world makes sense. Or how people can easily understand metaphors. There is importance in both logic and myth/instinctive wisdom/I don't know what to call it. I don't like it when people bash people saying "this person has no inner compass/wisdom" or "this person has no logic". It disturbs me because both people are good and intelligent and it seems wrong to me say that they are stupid... By drastic, I meant people who only believe in logic/science and those who only believe in insight/faith. Both things are beautiful and smart. (or so I think).
      No problem, I dont think I made to much sense with saying moral perception either.. Now when I look back at it. Ah okey I think I get what you are going for now. Do you feel confusion about your own moral when you understand the logic of how homophobes think? That is.. You agree with their logic but dissagree with what they their logic says, at the same as you actually understand how they might think and feel? Ah, okey. I agree with your drastic view then.

      I don't think there is something wrong with me doing that. I think there might be something wrong with me understanding why both are in their rights, because, being opposing views, one seems to be wrong. In my opinion, that would be the homophobes, but because I understand their innate feeling of repulsion, their innate knowledge that tells them, that's wrong ("I'm not gonna take their rights away, but I know it's wrong."), I fail to see how exactly where they are wrong. It's like, I understand why both homophobes are right, and I can't perceive why either is morally wrong...
      Oh.. I should maybe read your whole post before I start replying, just ignore the question above. For you to accept everyones personal perspective, that is so far so good. (Or excelent to be a little more precise.) A long as everyone are free to be themselfs, that is the main goal. What is the problem with someones personal perspective however. Is when a person acting out their own perspective with the intention to suppress another persons sense of self. So I would say that, that might be your missing piece. But to try to suppress the suppressor inorder to make the suppessor to stop, is not a very effective or good method at all.
      It's like, I understand why both homophobes are right, and I can't perceive why either is morally wrong...
      They are right as long as they dont acting it out on others. But it is actually more complex than this, because this is only represent a moral perspective of what is considered good. The most important perspective of moral though.

      I have seen so much blatant discrimination to these mentally disabled individual by the staff and when I bring it up... It's like I'm the crazy one. It makes me wonder... Is it possible for people to truly be accepting of everyone.
      It should be possible since we all got a somewhat similar brainstructure(I think). But there is of course many aspects that plays huge parts aswell. You might be percieved as the crazy one, but that is merely because someone who is considered crazy. Is a person who doesnt think as everyone else. And since you are standing up to something good, that should make it pretty clear that it is the crazy people that are to crazy to see what it means to be sane.

      (I hope the music I am listening to write now is not making me write with an over-dramatic tone....)
      Hehe I recognize that.. No, I whish that I would be able to read what you expressing from more people. It sounds more like you are going in the most reasonable right direction with all this.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Occipitalred View Post
      Assuming homosexuality is equally good to heterosexuality, then do homophobes have the responsibility to remove the repulsion that they feel inside them? Or do they have to just keep feeling the way they do? See, the problem I have with this is it seems hypocrite to me to continue believing something is repulsive and somehow act out like it's great in daylight.
      You raise good points, I definitely see where you are coming from. I feel like on my part, it's more a lack of good word choice than it is what you think. And again, that's my fault because the words I used to describe how I feel toward the situation. At the same time though, how can you be upset with somebody who is repulsed by the idea of homosexual acts and doesn't want to see them, as long as they are willing to recognize that they are wrong for feeling that way about others?

      You see, as long as they aren't having sex in public--which is illegal anyway--there isn't an issue to begin with. I don't like thinking or watching about two males having sex. I realize this is a double standard, but because I find women attractive, as long as they are the right two women, the idea of it isn't all that disgusting to me. It's how I feel and I can't easily change that. What I can change is how I decide to treat others based off of how I feel. As far as anyone is concerned by my actions or even most of my words, I appear to be totally fine with it. Up until I say I find it unpleasant to watch or think about to the point it makes me feel a mild bit of disgust, nobody knows the difference. If you want to argue I shouldn't mention how it makes me feel that way, that's one argument, yeah. But if I treat others with the respect I think they deserve as human beings despite what ways I feel about homosexuality as a personal choice for myself (because how I feel about it should only affect me, since heterosexuality is a personal choice I have made), why is there an issue? Can people not be happy with having the rights to be happy themselves, do I really need to have the way I see the world changed because of how they see the world? I feel like that in itself is an ulterior motive for a lot of gay rights activists and personally I feel like it's an attempt at mind control or something. You've got what you want, which is my support for your personal happiness. Why do you need anything more than that?

      If it's my approval you're after, technically you have that too. I wouldn't say it is okay for gays to have sex or get married if I didn't approve of it... for people other than me. The reason I don't approve of it myself is simply because that's just not what I'm into, man. I shouldn't be forced to be bisexual or something because it makes somebody feel better, which is often what I feel like people are trying to get to happen sometimes. I know this isn't really the case (hopefully), but the fact that my support for you isn't good enough is very irking. I can admit when a male is attractive. If Ryan Gosling found me super drunk at a bar and went in for a kiss, I don't know that I wouldn't kiss that mother fucker. But, I do know that I wouldn't have sex with him or touch his penis or let him touch mine, because I don't want that to happen. My mind doesn't want that to happen. I am very open about sexuality and see it more like a continuum than something with categories, there isn't just gay, bisexual, and straight. Things are more complicated than that. But, the point where I draw the line is when penises other than my own start flopping out. Any act at that point is sexual harassment, assault, or flat out rape. I don't want to be raped as much as the next person, surely you can understand that right? The only thing I want out of a sexual life is a woman, plain and simple, and there is nothing wrong with that. Just like if a gay person that is male wants a male in his life, and a woman wants a woman in hers, or in the case of bisexuality someone chooses to have both.

      edit:

      Quote Originally Posted by Alric View Post
      A lot of people who are homophobic are actually gay them self, or perhaps bisexual with some homosexual preferences, or they are in very strict groups who hate homosexuals. In those cases, they act homophobic to try to fit in with the 'normal' group because subconsciously they fear of being outcasted. Even if they are not gay they might feel pressure to conform with the group's hate, otherwise might be labeled gay or a gay supporter. Then it is even worse if you fear that label might be real.
      I agree. I think it's also a good portion of people who may be bisexual or even straight as well. The thing is, especially with males or people who are overzealous religiously, wondering if you are gay is a frightening thought. From a male perspective, you wonder that if you can even identify yourself as male (because obviously being male means banging a lot of chicks, right?), and your whole life you have identified yourself as male. Obviously liking other men doesn't make you any less of a man, and I personally find it more useful to identify as a human rather than male, female, black, white, etc. The division of yourself and others by categorization has its uses, but when it starts leading you to hate others it ceases to be useful in any context other than using it to communicate with others. When I first recognized that I could get pretty emotionally close to other men and that I even found some attractive in a simply recognition sort of sense, I actually wondered if I was bisexual. But when I thought about it, I just don't want to have someone in my butt and I don't want to be in another guy's myself. This is what defines me as being straight, my choice not to actually take part in homosexuality. Not because I am scared to, but because the idea makes me has the power to kill any boner I could've possibly had. I can't change that and don't desire to change it. Really homophobia comes from literally being afraid of what homosexuality might say about yourself. If this frightens you, then you are also worried about the people in your family and your neighbors. If you close your mind to it altogether, then you start to hate based out of fear (which is arguably the root of nearly all hatred: fear).
      Last edited by snoop; 01-14-2015 at 11:26 PM.
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      I am quite disappointed at the moment. I wrote a complete and long answer to what everyone had said, and then, I was signed out of my account as I was submitting (as I always am on Dreamviews) and I lost my whole comment. I need to remember to always copy before I submit! I'm no longer in the mood so I will try it another day...

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      I am quite disappointed at the moment. I wrote a complete and long answer to what everyone had said, and then, I was signed out of my account as I was submitting (as I always am on Dreamviews) and I lost my whole comment. I need to remember to always copy before I submit! I'm no longer in the mood so I will try it another day...
      Aw man that's a tough one.. Learning the hard way Recharge that power and we will hopfully see things goes as planed another day. Cya around!
      You are not your thoughts...

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      Okay, I'm ready to tackle this again!

      Quote Originally Posted by DreamyBear View Post
      what I meant with this is when you try to analyse different moral thoughts to look for which one that has the most potential to be the higher moral. It think that approach can be quite troublesome if one tries to find ones own right moral in that way. Because seeing moral in that way, becomes more like a law to follow with the help of logic thinking, instead of something you actually should feel with your whole being.

      And since ones moral is at the feeling part of oneself, then I believe that to find the answer to what moral standpoint one should take. Is the one that feels as good as possible for everyone involved, if there happen to be a situation that demands some action. That of course, is easier said than done like with many things.
      Hmmm. I see... You mean, that it is a dangerous route to go looking for the one moral way that everyone should follow all the time? I guess so, maybe I have been going into too specific of an example. And sort of building up on what you said, maybe the ideal morality is simply to act with good intentions and thinking about the consequences of our actions?

      Quote Originally Posted by DreamyBear View Post
      The problem with someones personal perspective however, is when a person acting out their own perspective with the intention to suppress another persons sense of self. So I would say that, that might be your missing piece. But to try to suppress the suppressor in order to make the suppressor to stop, is not a very effective or good method at all. They are right as long as they don't acting it out on others. But it is actually more complex than this, because this is only represent a moral perspective of what is considered good. The most important perspective of moral though.
      See, here, I would maybe argue that... is it not hypocrite the way we see this?

      We, almost selfishly, prohibit behavior that is harmful to others (because we want to be able to feel safe). So, people can't go around making ME feel uncomfortable - (Eg) because they are naked in public (although the act isn't actually harmful). It's not okay for people to steal or harm or enslave others (because I wouldn't want it to happen to me! I can let it fly, though, when it does happen in other countries, that doesn't concern me, they have to make their own choices).

      But, everything that can be harmful to only the person acting it out, well, that's okay. That's their choice. None of my business, if they harm themselves, mentally, emotionally, or physically. For example, in a conversation in an ethical class, talking about suicide, people seemed to focus on the fact that it was legal because you can't stop someone from making their own choice... It's okay to murder yourself, as long as you don't murder someone (that could be me!) See, I mean, obviously I don't think it would be constructive to arrest people who commit suicide. It doesn't make much sense. But why do we run away from the situation? Shouldn't we at least agree that it is a harmful act and that we at least need to make an effort to support such people?

      I didn't explain this as well as I had last time but... what I mean, is why is it so important not to bother other people? Is it a consequence of a selfish society that cares more about freedom than community? Or is it really better?

      I think I am inflating the problem. People do actually get into other people's business so I'm just ranting about nothing. It's not like it's an engendered behavior. I just feel people gossip a lot, rather than have the discussion with the person themselves, because somehow, people stop caring about others once it gets to the point that they would have to talk to them. If it's only a conversation to fill an awkward silence, than, it's all good.

      Quote Originally Posted by snoop View Post
      At the same time though, how can you be upset with somebody who is repulsed by the idea of homosexual acts and doesn't want to see them, as long as they are willing to recognize that they are wrong for feeling that way about others?
      Actually, that makes a lot of sense to me... I have this personal model of morality I made and it's called the gazelle and the lion. The Lion has to make a choice on a daily basis. Eat a gazelle. Not eat a gazelle. if it eats a gazelle, than, it murders another sentient being and is therefore not moral. If he doesn't eat the gazelle to let it live, then, it dies itself. The lion can't let itself die, it must eat the gazelle. The same moral dilemma occurs with the gazelle who can either decide to run from the lion and starve it or let itself be eaten and be killed. Both the lion and the gazelle are in a perpetual dilemma where they must thrive to kill the other. In this dilemma, the way to be moral, is not by not killing the other but by still "loving" the other as you do. In brief, when I eat an animal, I must accept that to get this food, murder had to occurred and I must realize that that is bad, despite the fact that I'm still gonna eat it. So it's the same here, you feel a certain way, it's okay, because you know it's wrong? ... And since you know that, you will do the less damage possible. Since you know you're wrong, you won't humiliate another person even if you disagree with their lifestyle.

      Quote Originally Posted by snoop View Post
      I feel like that in itself is an ulterior motive for a lot of gay rights activists and personally I feel like it's an attempt at mind control or something. You've got what you want, which is my support for your personal happiness. Why do you need anything more than that?
      I am certainly not saying how you should feel... Merely wondering about whether we have a moral responsibility to feel a certain way about this subject and other similar subjects... Where we disagree with something within us but we agree with it in public. But it's obviously not the matter with you because you do agree with homosexual rights, you just have a problem with seeing them have sex in public which is not something they are trying to be able to do and just seeing anyone, homosexual or heterosexual, having sex is weird. Because it is an intimate act, not a spectacle for an audience.

      Quote Originally Posted by snoop View Post
      But, the point where I draw the line is when penises other than my own start flopping out. Any act at that point is sexual harassment, assault, or flat out rape. I don't want to be raped as much as the next person, surely you can understand that right?
      Hmmm... That's interesting. Because it's true. No one wants to be raped, that is, to be forced to have sex with someone they don't want to have sex with... And it does feel like that's what it would be with this whole penis thing but every man likes to play with his own penis. So in a sense, heterosexual males do like penis. If it's theirs. They just don't like the idea of someone else's penis. And it's a little bit peculiar because, their the same things. I think we are just closed minded and if we had to open our minds, it wouldn't matter (as shown in prison). And on this topic, before now (and still now actually) gay marriage was illegal, and gay people married opposite sex marriage. If you think having sex with a man would be rape, then, shouldn't a man being forced to have sex with a woman feel the same? I don't believe that though. I believe that gay people who marry woman don't feel like they're being raped, maybe they don't enjoy it as much, maybe they don't enjoy it as often, but I do think that they must somehow love their partner if they are to marry them and have children with them. And then, there's another example with just heterosexual people. Arranged marriage. Surely a lot of these people weren't attracted by each other at first and then did end up loving each other and having a satisfying relationship.

      Sexuality is so complex, it is not only a matter of gender. It's also a matter of personality, of connection, of context, and a whole list of things I can't think of right now. Some people are not attracted to people at all, or just on a lesser level. Some people have a lower libido. It's not a spectrum, it's a whole web.

      What happens is, pro-gay people lose credit when they say sexuality is fixed and unchangeable. It's more a mix of both. Our sexual preferences are resistant. They will easily stay the same, and won't change easily but has to be changeable given the examples I gave above. That brings me to a point I am trying to make...

      Quote Originally Posted by Alric View Post
      A lot of people who are homophobic are actually gay them self, or perhaps bisexual with some homosexual preferences, or they are in very strict groups who hate homosexuals. In those cases, they act homophobic to try to fit in with the 'normal' group because subconsciously they fear of being outcasted. Even if they are not gay they might feel pressure to conform with the group's hate, otherwise might be labeled gay or a gay supporter. Then it is even worse if you fear that label might be real.
      and
      Quote Originally Posted by snoop View Post
      homophobia comes from literally being afraid of what homosexuality might say about yourself. If this frightens you, then you are also worried about the people in your family and your neighbors. If you close your mind to it altogether, then you start to hate based out of fear (which is arguably the root of nearly all hatred: fear).
      Although what you both say has to be true... I would argue that the cause of homophobia is not fear (as the name would imply) but just this genuine innate feeling that it's wrong. We're easily disgusted by sex with people we don't want to have sex with. It feels like rape (like you said), a crime worst then death some would say. That mental barrier can easily account for homophobia by itself.

      And I think homophobes feel that homosexuals are harboring unhealthy thoughts that will ruin their lives: they won't be able to marry (because of the present laws in some places), they won't be able to conceive children as a couple, they will be shamed, and they will live a lifestyle that disgusts them in general. I think, there is a sense of caring, that they want to guide people they think have went off path.

      It's obviously wrong... I am just saying, I can see why these people are not bad people. I don't think homophobes deserve hate... But definitely the consequences that come with their actions if they do somehow bypass human rights.

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      Hmmm. I see... You mean, that it is a dangerous route to go looking for the one moral way that everyone should follow all the time? I guess so, maybe I have been going into too specific of an example. And sort of building up on what you said, maybe the ideal morality is simply to act with good intentions and thinking about the consequences of our actions?
      Spot on!

      See, here, I would maybe argue that... is it not hypocrite the way we see this?

      We, almost selfishly, prohibit behavior that is harmful to others (because we want to be able to feel safe). So, people can't go around making ME feel uncomfortable - (Eg) because they are naked in public (although the act isn't actually harmful). It's not okay for people to steal or harm or enslave others (because I wouldn't want it to happen to me! I can let it fly, though, when it does happen in other countries, that doesn't concern me, they have to make their own choices).
      Yes, actually it is hypocritical. Even if that goodness is what everyone essentially wants in the end. Why the concept of getting people to follow a certain moral persepective is bound to be hypocritical no matter how you try to twist and turn it. Is because every living being have their own personal perspective about whats the moraly right thing to do for every situation. So to try to get anyone to obey a certain moral perspective without accepting that persons current perspective,(no matter what that person think is right) will most often become a violation on that persons sense of self. By inflicting more guilt and burden then what would be nessesary for that person to change their moral view. Any persons perspective must first be understood and accepted for what it is, so there is can be a positive feel of connection before the change of moral perspective can be fully replaced in a natural way.

      But, everything that can be harmful to only the person acting it out, well, that's okay. That's their choice. None of my business, if they harm themselves, mentally, emotionally, or physically. For example, in a conversation in an ethical class, talking about suicide, people seemed to focus on the fact that it was legal because you can't stop someone from making their own choice... It's okay to murder yourself, as long as you don't murder someone (that could be me!) See, I mean, obviously I don't think it would be constructive to arrest people who commit suicide. It doesn't make much sense. But why do we run away from the situation? Shouldn't we at least agree that it is a harmful act and that we at least need to make an effort to support such people?
      I agree with all this, and yes as long as we feel that we could be able to help someone with, for example a suicidal or depressed state of mind. I think that we should do that in such a gentle way as possible. And that would imply a lot of listening and understanding of the suicidal or depressed person. So only when he/she have start to feel understood, there can be a autentic change based on connection. Without a heavy realization of resposibility or guilt.

      I didn't explain this as well as I had last time but... what I mean, is why is it so important not to bother other people? Is it a consequence of a selfish society that cares more about freedom than community? Or is it really better?
      I think that we make it so important to not bother other people because almost everyone is afraid of true connection to eachother. We make up laws and put fences around our properties because we are unable to feel connected to everything around us. The actual root problem that I think this steams out of, is our ignorant/unconsious pattern of our personal ego which also influence the global ego. It all must be born out of the lack of understanding of what freedom essentialy is. So to build a community with the lack of understanding of freedom, will most likely fail in various degrees. But to understand freedom, is a process in itself, so it got to take some time aswell. The most important thing though, is that we atleast understand in what direction we are going. So we are aware why we do what ever we do, in our busy lifes.

      I think I am inflating the problem. People do actually get into other people's business so I'm just ranting about nothing. It's not like it's an engendered behavior. I just feel people gossip a lot, rather than have the discussion with the person themselves, because somehow, people stop caring about others once it gets to the point that they would have to talk to them. If it's only a conversation to fill an awkward silence, than, it's all good.
      Thats true, but when we start to reflect over certain problems, they usualy get bigger and bigger depending on what "truths" we have subscribed ourselfs to. So without our knowledge, we actually go around with many self-contradictive believes until we start to examine our thoughts of what we think we believe is true. And thing often get very complex fast, when we start to investigate the "truths" that we most often cling to. However, since you seem to care and reflect more about what could be potentially true. You are actually thinking from a open-mind perspective. So dont worry about how complex or meaningless things seems to be at the moment. As long as you make sure to keep a open-mind about it, you will be able to understand and making progress soon or later anyhow. The most important part is to keep track of in what direction one are going for. I think that people often like to gosip because that confirms and strengthen their current belief patterns which is much faster and easier, rather than actually try to solve a situation which implys a risk of being the one who is wrong about the issue, that most likely started the problematic situation in the first place.
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      Thank you DreamyBear, that answer really solved it all for me! I feel a lot more comfortable (logico-instinctively speaking) about the "judging other's lifestyle/opinions/behaviour and the line that society puts as to whether or not and how they intervene" topic and the morality aspect of it.
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      Thank you DreamyBear, that answer really solved it all for me! I feel a lot more comfortable (logico-instinctively speaking) about the "judging other's lifestyle/opinions/behaviour and the line that society puts as to whether or not and how they intervene" topic and the morality aspect of it.
      Wow thats awsome to hear! And I have to mention that I rarely, stumble up on someone so open-minded that you seems to be. It's much more appreciated to have a discussion in that way too, since it leads to so much more than just the defending of ones current beliefs for the sake of "winning" the discussion. However, your welcom Occipitalred! And thank you for your interesting questions and thoughts.
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      Quote Originally Posted by DreamyBear View Post
      Wow thats awsome to hear! And I have to mention that I rarely, stumble up on someone so open-minded that you seems to be. It's much more appreciated to have a discussion in that way too, since it leads to so much more than just the defending of ones current beliefs for the sake of "winning" the discussion. However, your welcome Occipitalred! And thank you for your interesting questions and thoughts.
      Thank you DreamyBear for your comment. It is quite appreciated that someone saw my efforts. It feels very good to be open-minded so it is something I am practicing at getting better at. In the sense, that I really try to put myself in the position of other people without having to compare them with my own experience.

      Also, I hope I did not come off as rude starting this topic in the first place. See, maybe this is what I was saying when I first started this thread:

      Logically, I would expect bisexuality to be the norm, just because, there is not a real difference between a male and a female, and as in the examples I talked about about, these things seem malleable depending on the context, such as arranged marriage (falling in love with someone you didn't love at first) and gay people marrying opposite sex people not because they're forced but because it was illegal to marry a man. However, being a monosexual (not a bisexual), I do understand that, in practice, people are not bisexual, and I understand what heterosexuals and homosexuals feel. But what intrigues me, is why people are monosexuals. And why people are disgusted by consensual incest. Do we have innate biological closed-minded something that stops us from being pansexual? And, ultimately, is this innate biological opinion, what causes homophobes to feel like homosexuality is a purely wrong, an objective evil?

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