Thread: Important For United States Citizens

By the time they abuse it, it will be to late. You have to stop that kind of stuff before hand. Its funny, that you want to take preemptive measure to stop terrorists but when it comes to the government abusing you, you want to take the wait and see approach. This is really the main reason for our differences in opinion.

You fear for your life more than you fear for your freedom. I fear for my freedom more than I do for my life. Honestly, I am more scared of getting into a car accident than being killed by terrorists. Seriously, I hate driving because of it. As for terrorists, I am not even worried, yet alone scared. If we looked at the facts I am probably right in my fears, as I am far more likely to die to some drunk driver than a terrorist. As for the government, they pull this kind of crap all the time, there are literally thousands if not millions of examples of government overstepping there powers.

I know this is an emotional subject, but its just that. Its based on emotions not logic. Here is something I want you to think about. The government has claimed that there is no way to deport the millions of people who are here illegally. They have said, they will not try because its impossible. So does knowing where the people are, help them get them out of the country? No because they refuse to try and deport them all, so knowing where they are does nothing.

So how does the ID get rid of them? Well the only other thing, would be that its hard for them to get a job. Now isn't it already illegal to hire them, and don't we have ways to check? So let me ask you this, if people already hire them knowing their illegal, what is stopping them from hiring them even with the new ID? Its already illegal now, so making it illegal again, really has no effect.

I think if you think about it, theres really no possible way this will effect them. The only valid reason for this new ID is to track people who are already known terrorists. If they are already known terrorists, you get a warrent and bug their phones and you drive around and watch them untill you get evidence and then arrest them and show it in court. That is the proper way to do it. If you think someone is a terrorist why would you let them wander around the country as they please? You wouldn't, you would tail them untill they messed up then bust them. This isn't about tracking terrorists but about tracking the american people.

Originally Posted by Alric

Its based on emotions not logic.......This isn't about tracking terrorists but about tracking the american people.
[/b]

Exactly. Exactly, exactly, exactly. These two sentences are what everything that's going on boils down to.

Originally Posted by Alric

By the time they abuse it, it will be to late. You have to stop that kind of stuff before hand. Its funny, that you want to take preemptive measure to stop terrorists but when it comes to the government abusing you, you want to take the wait and see approach. This is really the main reason for our differences in opinion.

You fear for your life more than you fear for your freedom. I fear for my freedom more than I do for my life. Honestly, I am more scared of getting into a car accident than being killed by terrorists. Seriously, I hate driving because of it. As for terrorists, I am not even worried, yet alone scared. If we looked at the facts I am probably right in my fears, as I am far more likely to die to some drunk driver than a terrorist. As for the government, they pull this kind of crap all the time, there are literally thousands if not millions of examples of government overstepping there powers.

I know this is an emotional subject, but its just that. Its based on emotions not logic. Here is something I want you to think about. The government has claimed that there is no way to deport the millions of people who are here illegally. They have said, they will not try because its impossible. So does knowing where the people are, help them get them out of the country? No because they refuse to try and deport them all, so knowing where they are does nothing.

So how does the ID get rid of them? Well the only other thing, would be that its hard for them to get a job. Now isn't it already illegal to hire them, and don't we have ways to check? So let me ask you this, if people already hire them knowing their illegal, what is stopping them from hiring them even with the new ID? Its already illegal now, so making it illegal again, really has no effect.

I think if you think about it, theres really no possible way this will effect them. The only valid reason for this new ID is to track people who are already known terrorists. If they are already known terrorists, you get a warrent and bug their phones and you drive around and watch them untill you get evidence and then arrest them and show it in court. That is the proper way to do it. If you think someone is a terrorist why would you let them wander around the country as they please? You wouldn't, you would tail them untill they messed up then bust them. This isn't about tracking terrorists but about tracking the american people.
[/b]

Well said, Alric.

Originally Posted by Oneironaut

Well said, Alric.
[/b]

I was gonna say this, but everyone beat me to it o.o

Originally Posted by Universal

Oh, I automatically hate Mexicans? How the Hell do you know I'm not Mexican American myself?[/b]

For starters someone of Hispanic origin (Mexican) will never call themselves a Mexican American. They refer to the term Latino American.

ROFL... shows how much you know about America. Have you ever heard of Cheech and Chong? Cheech sings a song about being Mexican American... not only that all my Mexican friends call themselves Mexican Americans, and I know plenty. At work tomorrow, I'm call one Latino American so he'll start calling me whitey. hehe, thanks for the idea.. and dude, I wish this thread would die... Its just a way of Identifying us, and making sure you can't get a fake. This way, minors can't get drinks at a bar. Now plz, just STFU... for my sake and yours.

EDIT: I might have been a little harsh, but I mean what I said.

Yeah, but this WOULD decrease the number of terrorists entering the country.

What would happen when some random Muslim with an idea that Osama has it right comes to the place you work, holding a bomb and AK? Better to be safe than sorry.

You people are more paranoid about a government trying to protect you than a religous movement trying to exterminate our way of life. WHY would our government try to track our own people, even if most of them are ***holes who undermine the authority the people put in power?

Of course if there was a bill passed to the extent that everyone had to have cameras installed in their' homes or something like that, I would be against it.

Islamic extremists have said they will keep fighting until the end of time against Western ideals. That includes the U.S., Europe, etc. Ever heard of the Crusades? That's what happens when people like Osama are in power.

Also, I actually do have to worry about a family member maybe getting killed. My dad (Special Forces) is overseas right now. So I have MUCH more at stake in this war than many of you. I also have a little insight into how the terrorists think, since my dad often went on raids the last couple of rotations. Found quite a bit of stuff.

It's easy to talk when you are sitting at your nice home, oblivious to a very real danger.


EDIT: And I think people should stop using those politically correct terms and refer to themselves as Americans. As long as they are legal. They can celebrate they're heritage and everything, but seriously. I don't call myself Native American.

Originally Posted by metcalfracing

ROFL... shows how much you know about America. Have you ever heard of Cheech and Chong? Cheech sings a song about being Mexican American... [/b]

Yeah I've heard of those two. bye the way extremely funny movies they made. On another note you do realize that song came out in the late 70's no later than 1980 if my memory serves me right. So let's see here, hmmmm.. about 27 years later Im pretty sure they are not calling themselves mexican americans anymore. Besides I have Mexican friends as well and it took me a while to realize they were mexican because they were always calling themselves latino's and latino can be referred to a variety of Hispanics. THESE DAYS in the 21st Century not in the 80's as you seem to make reference are they calling themselves Latino's and anyway racial classification has transgressed for even the African Americans since the 80's.

Originally Posted by Sagea

Yeah, but this WOULD decrease the number of terrorists entering the country.

What would happen when some random Muslim with an idea that Osama has it right comes to the place you work, holding a bomb and AK? Better to be safe than sorry.

You people are more paranoid about a government trying to protect you than a religous movement trying to exterminate our way of life. WHY would our government try to track our own people, even if most of them are ***holes who undermine the authority the people put in power?

Of course if there was a bill passed to the extent that everyone had to have cameras installed in their' homes or something like that, I would be against it.

Islamic extremists have said they will keep fighting until the end of time against Western ideals. That includes the U.S., Europe, etc. Ever heard of the Crusades? That's what happens when people like Osama are in power.

Also, I actually do have to worry about a family member maybe getting killed. My dad (Special Forces) is overseas right now. So I have MUCH more at stake in this war than many of you. I also have a little insight into how the terrorists think, since my dad often went on raids the last couple of rotations. Found quite a bit of stuff.

It's easy to talk when you are sitting at your nice home, oblivious to a very real danger.
EDIT: And I think people should stop using those politically correct terms and refer to themselves as Americans. As long as they are legal. They can celebrate they're heritage and everything, but seriously. I don't call myself Native American.
[/b]

Until you opened your mouth ive been content to simply observe this thread
but you schock me
you are undbutedly the most ridicuous poster ive come across, EVER
Your edit plain old kncoekd me off my chair.
People shouldnt call themsleves native americans.
Why not? Just becuase you choose not to. Thats the alst thing they can hold to to say, we were here first, this was our land.
And how on earth do the crusades, eld by the Popes at the time, relate to Osama Bin Laden?
You seem to put a lot of emphasis on Mr Laden.
You hoenslty believe, somebody who can orchestrate an attack the size of 9/11 cant find people already living in America to commit terrorist attacks.
ANd you have an insight into how terrorists think, oh do please share wit with us all sir.
When you've finished nip down to the FBI and give them a hand too.
I find it plainly obvious that your views regarding terrorism amongst other things are tainted due to the fact that your dad serves i nthe special forces.
I myslef, have left the Islamic religion
but you do come across as very Islamaphobic.
I could be wrong

Imran

(btw this was to sagea)

Originally Posted by Universal

I said they have no business setting up camp here and using tax payer resources.
[/b]

I think they come here for jobs, not to drive on our wonderful roads or park facilities.

Originally Posted by Universal

Have you ever heard of Cheech and Chong? [/b]

I think Tommy Chong was Chinese.

Originally Posted by Universal

This way, minors can't get drinks at a bar. Now plz, just STFU... for my sake and yours.
[/b]

Ohhh...is that all it is...how silly of us to be so worried about invasion of privacy, identity theft, beauracracy, government tracking our every move, constant worry that the wrong people will get into power and use it all against us, etc. etc.

Originally Posted by Sagea

Yeah, but this WOULD decrease the number of terrorists entering the country.
[/b]

I love how I make a huge post explaining how its not going to do anything and you reply with that comment as if it was a fact with no reasoning to even back it up. I have to ask, how is it going to decrease the number of terrorist entering the country? How does an ID for people living in this country, stop people from outside the country comming in? It doesn't, its as simple as that.

Ask anyone, what the goal is for this ID. The answer for everyone will be the same. To track people. Some might say to track terrorists some might say to track criminals but its all the same. Its to track the US population. Seeing as how the ID doesn't have a mind reading chip that turns the card blue to indicate hes a terrorist because he thought something evil, I don't see how this helps in any way.

Originally Posted by Ne

Yeah I've heard of those two. bye the way extremely funny movies they made. On another note you do realize that song came out in the late 70's no later than 1980 if my memory serves me right. So let's see here, hmmmm.. about 27 years later Im pretty sure they are not calling themselves mexican americans anymore. Besides I have Mexican friends as well and it took me a while to realize they were mexican because they were always calling themselves latino's and latino can be referred to a variety of Hispanics. THESE DAYS in the 21st Century not in the 80's as you seem to make reference are they calling themselves Latino's and anyway racial classification has transgressed for even the African Americans since the 80's.
[/b]

Hehe... who's livin' in the 80's? Beside, Latino is just a slang.. its not even a realize type of race. Also, because of your ignorance of other countries, you might want to check and make sure they are, in fact, Mexican american and that you are not just generalizing them. There are, in fact, more than one country in the same area, and it'd be a tad offensive if you were.

Edit: Tommy Chong is chinese. I was just referring to movies that they both star in.

Originally Posted by Moonbeam

I think they come here for jobs, not to drive on our wonderful roads or park facilities.
[/b]

Way too many of them come here and drive on our wonderful welfare and unemployment facilities. Fake identification has worked well under the current ID system. There is also the large illegal society that is driving on our wonderful prison facilities. Sign me up to flip the bill on that!

Originally Posted by Moonbeam

For starters someone of Hispanic origin (Mexican) will never call themselves a Mexican American. They refer to the term Latino American.
[/b]

For starters, that is an invalid generalization. "Mexican American" is more specific than "Latino American", and it is often used by them. I was also talking to somebody I assumed would call them Mexican Americans, especially when that was the very specific group we were talking about.

The fact is that a great deal of Mexicans are the descendants of the native North American tribe people. Guess what... I am too. I am mostly Scotch-Irish, but not fully. I am very few generations down from some full blooded native folks. I'm proud of it.

Originally Posted by metcalfracing

Hehe... who's livin' in the 80's? Beside, Latino is just a slang.. its not even a realize type of race. Also, because of your ignorance of other countries, [/b]

ignorance of other countries? You're a really funny guy.

Now getting back to the topic at hand.


It's like this in a nut-shell, basically all totalitarian dystopias, in life as well as in art, seem to be obsessed with identifying people. The obligatory scene in which a stern, uniformed man demands "your papers, please" has evolved into the automatic scanning of various body parts, but the purpose is always the same: to abolish the right to be anonymous. Plan and simple and it really doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out. Come 2008, we'll learn how much it will cost Americans in the future in money, time, and annoyance, as well as personal and political freedom to convince government officials that we are who we say we are.

The REAL ID Act says that agencies issuing driver's licenses must require from applicants a photo ID, birth certificate, "proof of the person's Social Security number", and "evidence of lawful status". The agencies must keep digital copies of everything and store the copies on the card's electronic chip. State officials will be required to verify with the issuing agency the issuance, validity, and completeness of each document. A visit to the driver's license office, already one of my least as well as other Americans favorite pastimes, is going to get a lot longer, and be more infuriating than ever.

And it doesn't matter if your current license is good until 2012 or 2016 because you'll have to get a new one in the next couple of years to comply with REAL ID, and you'll be required make a trip to the licensing office every time you move to a new address, even within your own town or state. Licenses will undoubtedly become more expensive as well. The states' estimate of $11 billion amounts to $55 per driver in additional costs. Oh yeah you've guessed it who do you think is going to replace the $11 billion? You guessed it the American people, so we are looking at an increase in taxes in the future to compensate as well as the cost of this Real ID which is going dent our pockets a lot more than a drivers license. I don't know about you guys but I don't like spending my hard earned money on something I don't want.

Originally Posted by Sagea

Yeah, but this WOULD decrease the number of terrorists entering the country.

What would happen when some random Muslim with an idea that Osama has it right comes to the place you work, holding a bomb and AK? Better to be safe than sorry.

You people are more paranoid about a government trying to protect you than a religous movement trying to exterminate our way of life. WHY would our government try to track our own people, even if most of them are ***holes who undermine the authority the people put in power?

Of course if there was a bill passed to the extent that everyone had to have cameras installed in their' homes or something like that, I would be against it.

Islamic extremists have said they will keep fighting until the end of time against Western ideals. That includes the U.S., Europe, etc. Ever heard of the Crusades? That's what happens when people like Osama are in power.

Also, I actually do have to worry about a family member maybe getting killed. My dad (Special Forces) is overseas right now. So I have MUCH more at stake in this war than many of you. I also have a little insight into how the terrorists think, since my dad often went on raids the last couple of rotations. Found quite a bit of stuff.

It's easy to talk when you are sitting at your nice home, oblivious to a very real danger.
EDIT: And I think people should stop using those politically correct terms and refer to themselves as Americans. As long as they are legal. They can celebrate they're heritage and everything, but seriously. I don't call myself Native American.
[/b]

The fact that you're another poster from a military family instantly sets off alarm bells. No personal attack on you or your family, but most military families seem to be the most 'brainwashed' into accepting whatever the government tells them, which is logical enough, since most soldiers wouldnt want to think they were actually off doing anything morally dubious.

There are plenty of reasons for a governement to 'track' its people. You cannot do anything without there being proof in some database somewhere, telling them that you were there, doing that activity. The government has been known for targetting particular populations to stop them voting, so how much easier is this gonna make it? Governments becoming too power-hungry and taking totalitarian control of their country has happened in so many, if not all societies, why would America not be the same? They aren't morally exempt just because they're an important country.

Everything they've done so far just hints at the corrupt road that America's government is heading down. Plenty of 'hidden terrorists everywhere' that they're constantly using as an excuse to take away the freedom that Americans are always cheering about so heartily, using the tagline 'freedom isnt free' - duh, if it involves losing your liberties to be 'free'. You're going from freedom from these terrorists, to being ruled by 'terrorists'. It only takes one small event to switch to being like the former country America just supposedly 'liberated'! In the UK, two sets of innocent people have already been gunned down in public, on suspicion of terrorism. To me, THAT is a bigger threat, than some Iraqis who'd done nothing to us until we invaded their country and killed a large portion of them.

The link is broken..?

~

Originally Posted by O

The link is broken..?

~
[/b]

Sorry about that try these steps.


Follow this link Library of Congress Scroll down to Subject titled Remarks in Senate. Then click on the link (H.R. 418) You will find that There are 3 versions of Bill Number H.R.418 for the 109th Congress.
Ver. 1 [H.R.418.IH]
Ver. 2 [H.R.418.EH]
Ver. 3 [H.R.418.RFS]
Click on any of the links from the library of congress to get more information.

Originally Posted by Wolffe

The fact that you're another poster from a military family instantly sets off alarm bells. No personal attack on you or your family, but most military families seem to be the most 'brainwashed' into accepting whatever the government tells them, which is logical enough, since most soldiers wouldnt want to think they were actually off doing anything morally dubious.

There are plenty of reasons for a governement to 'track' its people. You cannot do anything without there being proof in some database somewhere, telling them that you were there, doing that activity. The government has been known for targetting particular populations to stop them voting, so how much easier is this gonna make it? Governments becoming too power-hungry and taking totalitarian control of their country has happened in so many, if not all societies, why would America not be the same? They aren't morally exempt just because they're an important country.

Everything they've done so far just hints at the corrupt road that America's government is heading down. Plenty of 'hidden terrorists everywhere' that they're constantly using as an excuse to take away the freedom that Americans are always cheering about so heartily, using the tagline 'freedom isnt free' - duh, if it involves losing your liberties to be 'free'. You're going from freedom from these terrorists, to being ruled by 'terrorists'. It only takes one small event to switch to being like the former country America just supposedly 'liberated'! In the UK, two sets of innocent people have already been gunned down in public, on suspicion of terrorism. To me, THAT is a bigger threat, than some Iraqis who'd done nothing to us until we invaded their country and killed a large portion of them.
[/b]

Well. Another "The U.S. military people were duped" person. On the contrary, we are much more down to earth and disciplined than most people, and people in the military are trained to act for the best of the country. We are the ones getting injured and killed for YOUR freedoms, why should we just accept what the government says? Why do you think Sun Tzu said in The Art Of War to not let government make military decisions (as in retreat, advance, etc.)?

You have no idea what you are talking about, it seems. Let me spell it out for you.

WE ARE IN A FUCKING WAR. In war, you make sacrifices. You cannot fight a war and not get casulties and measures to prevent more attacks. Face the facts.

We killed only the Iraqis that attacked us back, or civilians in the case of some coward using bystanders as shields - and that was always by accident. Most of the Iraqis killed died at the hands of terrorists or the Taliban. Besides, do you REALLY think ANYONE would let our freedoms be taken away after the end of the war? There would be so much public outcry and riots...

If we pull out of Iraq, it WILL be known as another Vietnam as well as letting the terrorists know "Hey guys, we're weak! Attack us, since we don't think you are much of a threat!". This ID thing will help prevent known terrorists from getting in the U.S. except by smuggling, which will be addressed by increasing the border patrol.

Life is precious, and we cannot justify letting terrorists killing us for the sake of freedoms that would be reinstated when it is safe to do so.

Let me end with a question: Would you rather have no anti-terrorists measures other than ones already put in (say before 2005), or have a couple of hundred people murdered by determined terrorists?
And don't tell me they can't do it:
Look at one of the attempted assasinations of Hosni Mubarak, the president of Egypt. It was extremely well organized, and would have worked if not for delays in Mubarak's convoy. Even so, very few of the terrorists were caught, as the they had an excellent extraction plan. The Egyptian government had no clue it was going to happen.

Terrorists should not be underestimated.

Saega: Most of the Iraqis killed died at the hands of terrorists or the Taliban.

and how may i ask do the Pakistani and Afgahanistani based taliban relate to the situation in Iraq
you really do talk out of your arsehole

Imran

Originally Posted by Sagea

Life is precious, and we cannot justify letting terrorists killing us for the sake of freedoms that would be reinstated when it is safe to do so.
[/b]

That is scary, that is truely scary. I am not sure if you meant to say that or it was just subconscious but you just admited they are taking away freedoms and your ok with it since they will be reinstated later. Its never ok to take away freedoms. I don't care how bad things are, and I don't care if you claim they will be reinstated later. Losing our freedoms is totally unaccetable.

As for your question. Yes, I would rather have a couple of hundred people die, than to lose my freedom. I am in a major town, and where I live is probably high on terrorist target list. I could also die, and I am willing to take that risk. Far more people will die and suffer if their freedoms are taken than terrorists could possibly harm.

Its funny, in your last post you asked, "why should we just accept what the government says". Isn't that what we are saying? That you shouldn't accept the ID just because the government said it was good. Like I said before, how does giving people living in the US ID's help stop people from outside the country from getting in? I mean we already have passports and stuff.

One last question. If your fighting for our freedoms, why would you ever allow someone to take them away, even temporarily? Is that what your fighting for? Rights which can be granted or taken away at the drop of a hat? Is that what your putting your life on the line for? If that is the case I feel sorry for you, I truely do. You say you fight for our freedoms yet you don't even know the true meaning of them.

The REAL ID Act says that agencies issuing driver's licenses must require from applicants a photo ID, birth certificate, "proof of the person's Social Security number", and "evidence of lawful status".[/b]

Dude... are you stupid or do you just have short term memory loss? We have to show these things already. Its not changing anything, in any way. So there's a chip in it, oh man, NOT A CHIP!!! Its just to keep people from forging them in the future. Last time I checked, the government has the right to make sure teens aren't buying alchohol with fake IDs.

Originally Posted by Sagea

Well. Another "The U.S. military people were duped" person. On the contrary, we are much more down to earth and disciplined than most people, and people in the military are trained to act for the best of the country. We are the ones getting injured and killed for YOUR freedoms, why should we just accept what the government says? Why do you think Sun Tzu said in The Art Of War to not let government make military decisions (as in retreat, advance, etc.)?

You have no idea what you are talking about, it seems. Let me spell it out for you.

WE ARE IN A FUCKING WAR. In war, you make sacrifices. You cannot fight a war and not get casulties and measures to prevent more attacks. Face the facts.

We killed only the Iraqis that attacked us back, or civilians in the case of some coward using bystanders as shields - and that was always by accident. Most of the Iraqis killed died at the hands of terrorists or the Taliban. Besides, do you REALLY think ANYONE would let our freedoms be taken away after the end of the war? There would be so much public outcry and riots...

If we pull out of Iraq, it WILL be known as another Vietnam as well as letting the terrorists know "Hey guys, we're weak! Attack us, since we don't think you are much of a threat!". This ID thing will help prevent known terrorists from getting in the U.S. except by smuggling, which will be addressed by increasing the border patrol.

Life is precious, and we cannot justify letting terrorists killing us for the sake of freedoms that would be reinstated when it is safe to do so.

Let me end with a question: Would you rather have no anti-terrorists measures other than ones already put in (say before 2005), or have a couple of hundred people murdered by determined terrorists?
And don't tell me they can't do it:
Look at one of the attempted assasinations of Hosni Mubarak, the president of Egypt. It was extremely well organized, and would have worked if not for delays in Mubarak's convoy. Even so, very few of the terrorists were caught, as the they had an excellent extraction plan. The Egyptian government had no clue it was going to happen.

Terrorists should not be underestimated.
[/b]

Firstly, this isn't a war. The war ended a long time ago. There was hardly a war fullstop. It took like, what, 10 weeks to completely wipe out the army and capture Hussein? That was the end of the war. Now it's a case of camping in Iraq for goodness knows how long, under the excuse that it's for 'fixing democracy'. It's nothing close to Vietnam. There was hardly a war. It was a joke. A miniature massacre. They didn't stand a hope in hell, which is why Iraq was invaded so quickly and care-free in manner. North Korea posed 10x the threat at the time, and still does, but the only reason no-one attacks them is because it wouldn't be the joy-ride of a war that Iraq was.

You only killed the Iraqis who attacked back? How is only killing people who try to defend their lives (since they were attacked first) some kind of moral logic?

May I point out that yet again, for someone who is claiming to know so much more about this, that Iraq still has absolutely nothing to do with terrorists attacking America. This was a claim by the government that was quickly dismissed.

The Egyptians in your example didn't need positive records of everyone in the country just to capture these terrorists, with the worst-case scenario plot possible.

I'm not saying the military were duped. I'm saying they follow whatever orders they're given, and like most humans, try to find some moral logic in it. It's not really a criticism or a compliment, it's just a fact of life, as far as I can see.

Okay here's the deal guys. The Real ID Act ought to include the same privacy measures encryption, and some sort of metallic covers that the State Department uses to protect the privacy of passports.

And the Real ID Act ought to be amended to allow persons in danger to give only a P.O. box address; to accommodate the reality that homeless people may have neither an address nor a P.O. box. In addition, Congress should appropriate funding to help the states in what will be a massive compliance effort rather than leaving them with this expensive, unfunded mandate. Lack of funding will only encourage the states to cut corners, defeating the act's purpose.

Finally, states should be able to choose to provide licenses to undocumented immigrants. Otherwise, such immigrants may end up driving without licenses or insurance. If they have accidents, their victims will have no recourse. And it's likely they will have accidents for there will be no reason for them to take driving lessons or tests, since a license will be out of the question.

For once this conversation is on the right track... The fact is that like most bills, they go through scrutinizing evaluations and debates before they finally decide on whats going to go into the bill. I mean, its not going to go in the books as is... even if its passed its still up for revision. But ya, I'm just glad this conversation is steering away from "OMFG chips= big brother". If you think about it, its pretty much like the holograms that come on cards now. Life isn't a sci-fi network program. Even if a president becomes ambitious in power lust, the senate would never allow such a bill to pass. This is why we have checks and balances.